Something you'd love in a fire emblem game but fear you'll never see

[Axie]

actually stop pretending the skill/dexterity stat as it stands is worth the same the other stats are; either greatly reduce weapon accuracy and greatly increase the impact of skill in the accuracy formula OR get rid of the stat.

or even come up with something else for skill! i like, for example, having excess accuracy add to the critical hit rate, specially if we reduce how much damage a critical hit deals, which should happen regardless.

1RN for accuracy would also validate skill a bit more, and that also won't happen again. i am shocked fates kind of sort of allegedly did it to begin with.

(i am fine with luck being a minor stat though. like, it's NAMED luck. you aren't supposed to count on luck lol. i wouldn't mind if it was buffed though, like if it had a very minor effect on the attack and defense formulas.)

Edited November 14, 2020 by Axie

[vanguard333]

A chapter where the good guys have to lay siege to a castle by attacking the front gate. You can open the gate either by bringing the battering ram up to it and bringing the gate's HP down to 0, or by getting up to the castle walls and raising the gate using a lever in the 2nd floor of the gatehouse. There are archers on the castle walls, and the only way for a non-flying unit to get up to the walls is either via a ladder (which a unit can carry but enemies can knock down on enemy phase) or a siege tower, which has to be pushed up to the wall. 

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 11/14/2020 at 9:43 AM, Axie said:

(i am fine with luck being a minor stat though. like, it's NAMED luck. you aren't supposed to count on luck lol. i wouldn't mind if it was buffed though, like if it had a very minor effect on the attack and defense formulas.)

I had a really funny change in mind. Basically, for every point of Luck a unit has, each of their growths is buffed by 1%. Or, after a level-up, each missed stat has a Luck% chance of getting "re-rolled".

Could be a way to give Luck a bit more utility. And it makes sense that a unit with higher Luck would get "luckier" on level-ups. Would make it obnoxiously hard to calculate average stats, though.

[joevar]

3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I had a really funny change in mind. Basically, for every point of Luck a unit has, each of their growths is buffed by 1%. Or, after a level-up, each missed stat has a Luck% chance of getting "re-rolled".

Could be a way to give Luck a bit more utility. And it makes sense that a unit with higher Luck would get "luckier" on level-ups. Would make it obnoxiously hard to calculate average stats, though.

altho i support the idea of "growing" growth stat, the RNG ness will be off the chart then. also what happen when you have stat boost item like goddess icon which adds Luck? will it grow from lvl up too?

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

2 hours ago, joevar said:

altho i support the idea of "growing" growth stat, the RNG ness will be off the chart then. also what happen when you have stat boost item like goddess icon which adds Luck? will it grow from lvl up too?

The idea is, the "luck bonus" only occurs on a level-up, and is based on the unit's Luck going into the level-up. So, let's say a unit levels up, and their Luck goes from 10 to 11. All other stats will either level-up, not level-up, or get re-rolled. So if the Strength growth is 60%, then if the proc is missed (40%), there's a 10% chance of a reroll (which is another 60/40 split). So the chance of missing the base proc, but getting a successful reroll, is 0.40 * 0.10 * 0.60 = 0.024, or 2.4%. Add it to the base growth, and this unit has an effective Strength growth of 62.4%.

Now, let's say a Goddess Icon is used, and we're in a game where it imparts +4. Then the unit will have 15 Luck. On the next level-up, the chance of a successful reroll is 0.40 * 0.15 * 0.60 = 0.036, or 3.6%. For an effective Strength growth of 63.6%.

As you can see, this change would have a very small effect, but a positive one on the unit in question. And it's worth keeping in mind that the effect is imparted on all stats, not just one. It's kind of like a perpetual, but growing, "Afa's Drops".

[joevar]

continuing on lvl up mechanic..

fixed growth, as in less or no randomness in every level up

this come up because a decade ago and for several years i've thought that character stat increase in lvl up is not random. even when i've seen the growth rates in wiki
i thought back then that if a character growth for Skill has 40%, then its not probability but progress. so 2 lvl up wont increase it, but 3rd one will increase it and with excess of 20%. so they will receive increase again in the 5th lvl up. and so on

im sure i saw a character with over 100% growth rates , which is weird for a probability. does that mean that character have chance to get more than 1 point of increase in 1 lvl up?? can someone confirm?

im really weirded out when saw FE fandom arguing about "character A in my playthru is so good" , then so many people reply with "no, char A decent, but never that good in my playthru" for the first time, lol.
that kind of conversation is really tiring and i despise it.

Edited December 6, 2020 by joevar

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, joevar said:

im sure i saw a character with over 100% growth rates , which is weird for a probability. does that mean that character have chance to get more than 1 point of increase in 1 lvl up?? can someone confirm?

 

Yes. If a character has 110% growth it means there's 10% that stat will grow by 2 in a level up. Though such growth rates are quite uncommon.

[Axie]

i think it's so disappointing that we haven't been given the fixed mode option again. it should have been a mainstay. random growths should never go away because personal experience makes the fandom so much fun, but fixed mode guarantees a playthrough will be viable.

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, Axie said:

i think it's so disappointing that we haven't been given the fixed mode option again. it should have been a mainstay. random growths should never go away because personal experience makes the fandom so much fun, but fixed mode guarantees a playthrough will be viable.

I agree we should get a choice going into games. But I'd rather a true fixed growth mode instead of that weird system Path of Radiance did with it's weapon points stuff.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

I agree we should get a choice going into games. But I'd rather a true fixed growth mode instead of that weird system Path of Radiance did with it's weapon points stuff.

I did really enjoy the "Bands" in Path of Radiance, though. I'd love to see growth-adjusting equippables make a comeback, along eith the Fixed Mode in general.

But yeah, the "weapons equipped affecting your growths" thing was... weird.

[Murozaki]

Weapon Experience gone for at least one game. I can see why the system exists and persists to this day but as it is it's very flawed and i'd rather have IS experiment and try a different way to handle Weapon Ranks just to see if they can find something better.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Murozaki

[joevar]

8 hours ago, Murozaki said:

Weapon Experience gone for at least one game. I can see why the system exists and persists to this day but as it is it's very flawed and i'd rather have IS experiment and try a different way to handle Weapon Ranks just to see if they can find something better.

i dont see how its "very flawed" unless you heavily grind, or play without grind at all. But i like how in Echoes you dont have to care about that.

if we talk about old weapon system then yes, its only there to prevent you from using silver lance since chapter 1 which must be improved. but IS actually improve it in 3H by giving you some benefit like unlocking weapon art/abilities which gives you incentive and actual edge against lower mastery/rank. and feels like they combine weapon experience from Echoes with the usual weapon rank from older game

maybe without weapon rank we will see more prf weapon, or more class-locked weapon to balance it. otherwise Jegan with silver weapon will get benched since chapter 1 or at least earlier than usual

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by joevar

[Murozaki]

1 hour ago, joevar said:

i dont see how its "very flawed" unless you heavily grind, or play without grind at all.

It creates a positive feedback loop where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. To get access to good weapons you need to swing bad useless weapons a bunch of times. While if you already have access to good weapons you use those and get rewarded with instant access to even better weapons. Though i will admit that's more of a byproduct of how Fire Emblem's RPG mechanics affect its balance in general.

It can also remove the point of certain classes having access to multiple weapons. For example, in Fates, when promotions that give access to more weapons that factor rarely matter because E-Rank Hell will make it so that the unit will be better off sticking with the weapons they were already using pre-promotion, with the exception of classes that get access to Staves or bow classes getting access to melee weapons.

And again, i can understand why Weapon Experience is in place, i think it's a flawed system but i do think that between all the ways Weapon Rank has been implemented in the series, it is still the best way to handle it, i would definitely take Weapon Experience over fixed Weapon Ranks, a Weapon Level stat or no Weapon Ranks at all. I just find it flawed still and think it would be a good idea for IS to at least try to come up with something new just to see if they can possibly make something better.

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, Murozaki said:

It creates a positive feedback loop where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. To get access to good weapons you need to swing bad useless weapons a bunch of times. While if you already have access to good weapons you use those and get rewarded with instant access to even better weapons. Though i will admit that's more of a byproduct of how Fire Emblem's RPG mechanics affect its balance in general.

It can also remove the point of certain classes having access to multiple weapons. For example, in Fates, when promotions that give access to more weapons that factor rarely matter because E-Rank Hell will make it so that the unit will be better off sticking with the weapons they were already using pre-promotion, with the exception of classes that get access to Staves or bow classes getting access to melee weapons.

And again, i can understand why Weapon Experience is in place, i think it's a flawed system but i do think that between all the ways Weapon Rank has been implemented in the series, it is still the best way to handle it, i would definitely take Weapon Experience over fixed Weapon Ranks, a Weapon Level stat or no Weapon Ranks at all. I just find it flawed still and think it would be a good idea for IS to at least try to come up with something new just to see if they can possibly make something better.

I just think they need to give units opportunities to specialize in weapon rank growth. Three Houses introduced Training Weapons which are something I've wanted for a while now, only I don't think they did what I wanted them to do with training weapons, which is basically double wexp gained. Instead they're just bronze weapons. If we had a class of weapons that were intentionally designed for wexp growth and made Discipline a skill freely transferable across the army and add some more wexp conditions (like additional wexp for getting a kill or using the weapon triangle) then building a unit's weapon rank would become something that won't build much if you're not focusing on it, but with some careful planning you could build them quite fast, at some slight cost to the units combat ability (using weaker weapons and having one of their skill slots filled by a skill that offers no benefit in combat).

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

21 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I just think they need to give units opportunities to specialize in weapon rank growth. Three Houses introduced Training Weapons which are something I've wanted for a while now, only I don't think they did what I wanted them to do with training weapons, which is basically double wexp gained. Instead they're just bronze weapons. If we had a class of weapons that were intentionally designed for wexp growth and made Discipline a skill freely transferable across the army and add some more wexp conditions (like additional wexp for getting a kill or using the weapon triangle) then building a unit's weapon rank would become something that won't build much if you're not focusing on it, but with some careful planning you could build them quite fast, at some slight cost to the units combat ability (using weaker weapons and having one of their skill slots filled by a skill that offers no benefit in combat).

"Training Weapon" is honestly a misnomer in Three Houses, they're basically Slim Weapons. Except cheap, and with a ton more uses. I find them quite good in their own right (especially on units who would otherwise be slowed down). I don't understand why the designers seem to only think high-hit, low-weight weapons belong at E-rank, but that's its own question.

But yeah, I'd be game for "training" weapons that boost rank gain by 2, 3, even 4x. I'm envisioning them as Iron Weapons, but slightly worse in every way (i.e. 2 more Wt, 1 less Mt, 10 less Hit). So it's a choice between better performance now, and reaching higher ranks sooner.

41 minutes ago, Murozaki said:

It creates a positive feedback loop where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. To get access to good weapons you need to swing bad useless weapons a bunch of times. While if you already have access to good weapons you use those and get rewarded with instant access to even better weapons. Though i will admit that's more of a byproduct of how Fire Emblem's RPG mechanics affect its balance in general.

It's not really "instant", as it takes more WEXP to go from, say, A to S rank than E to D rank. That said, there's a compelling case here for having Silver Swords give the same WEXP as Iron Swords (in games where that isn't already the case). Also, the problem isn't necessarily the system, as much as how indulgent the designers are - units like Seth and FE7 Marcus start out not only with great stats, but amazing ranks. They could easily lose one or the other, or some of each, and still be a great unit (see FE6 Marcus, for instance).

46 minutes ago, Murozaki said:

It can also remove the point of certain classes having access to multiple weapons. For example, in Fates, when promotions that give access to more weapons that factor rarely matter because E-Rank Hell will make it so that the unit will be better off sticking with the weapons they were already using pre-promotion, with the exception of classes that get access to Staves or bow classes getting access to melee weapons.

chuckles in forged Bronze/Brass weaponry

 

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

"Training Weapon" is honestly a misnomer in Three Houses, they're basically Slim Weapons. Except cheap, and with a ton more uses. I find them quite good in their own right (especially on units who would otherwise be slowed down). I don't understand why the designers seem to only think high-hit, low-weight weapons belong at E-rank, but that's its own question.

But yeah, I'd be game for "training" weapons that boost rank gain by 2, 3, even 4x. I'm envisioning them as Iron Weapons, but slightly worse in every way (i.e. 2 more Wt, 1 less Mt, 10 less Hit). So it's a choice between better performance now, and reaching higher ranks sooner.

Oh Three Houses Training Weapons are fantastic in Three Houses, even if they're stealing the name for a(n obvious) concept I came up with years ago. They're the most reliable weapons for actually hitting the enemy, which is a massive issue in Maddening, and they're high uses make them great for combat arms. I carry iron and steel weapons just in case I need the extra few might to get a kill I wouldn't otherwise, but I end up using training weapons far often because the higher hit is totally worth the reduce might.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

It's not really "instant", as it takes more WEXP to go from, say, A to S rank than E to D rank. That said, there's a compelling case here for having Silver Swords give the same WEXP as Iron Swords (in games where that isn't already the case). Also, the problem isn't necessarily the system, as much as how indulgent the designers are - units like Seth and FE7 Marcus start out not only with great stats, but amazing ranks. They could easily lose one or the other, or some of each, and still be a great unit (see FE6 Marcus, for instance).

chuckles in forged Bronze/Brass weaponry

 

That's kind of how the og Jeigan runs things. His stats are not impressive at all, like even compared to the units you get at the same time as him. But his weapon rank is high so he's the only unit that can use the silver lance for quite some time. And honestly I think that is a good balancing thing for units outside of typical "How many stats do they have." A unit who is weaker but with good weapon ranks, or a unit who is stronger but with bad weapon ranks (like Seteth) is an interesting way to provide more units that are distinct from each other.

[joevar]

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

It's not really "instant", as it takes more WEXP to go from, say, A to S rank than E to D rank. That said, there's a compelling case here for having Silver Swords give the same WEXP as Iron Swords (in games where that isn't already the case). Also, the problem isn't necessarily the system, as much as how indulgent the designers are - units like Seth and FE7 Marcus start out not only with great stats, but amazing ranks. They could easily lose one or the other, or some of each, and still be a great unit (see FE6 Marcus, for instance).

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

But yeah, I'd be game for "training" weapons that boost rank gain by 2, 3, even 4x. I'm envisioning them as Iron Weapons, but slightly worse in every way (i.e. 2 more Wt, 1 less Mt, 10 less Hit). So it's a choice between better performance now, and reaching higher ranks sooner.

agreed, this is one way to improve / spice things up in Weapon rank mechanism.

altho i want to suggest a little bit of the reverse.

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

at some slight cost to the units combat ability (using weaker weapons and having one of their skill slots filled by a skill that offers no benefit in combat).

i want weapon rank not gating/blocking usage of higher ranked weapon but instead give them penalty for using it. so taking weapon rank into "proficiency" and a little bit realistic. because it assume you are not used to that weapon, so you cant use it efficiently, rather than not capable using it at all like in every FE. so we dont need training weapon thats inferior every other weapon to get to use higher weapon.

because its a tool, im using the analogy of weight training where professional instructor would recommend you to advance into higher weight rather than making too many repetition just because you can, since you're already in "comfort zone". theres diminishing return of gains by sticking to lower tier/weight.  rather than using wooden weapon to gain more bigger Wexp to use silver, you actually use silver to speed rank into whatever rank silver is, it makes more sense that way.

so for example, char with C weapon proficiency could use Silver weapon with rank A, but have lower hit and Mt than someone who already have A rank, but gain more Wexp

(whats that? its not balanced someone said?? nothing will be/is balanced, as long as theres option to grind or not to grind)

2 hours ago, Murozaki said:

And again, i can understand why Weapon Experience is in place, i think it's a flawed system but i do think that between all the ways Weapon Rank has been implemented in the series, it is still the best way to handle it, i would definitely take Weapon Experience over fixed Weapon Ranks, a Weapon Level stat or no Weapon Ranks at all. I just find it flawed still and think it would be a good idea for IS to at least try to come up with something new just to see if they can possibly make something better.

in short, i would not want to call weapon rank, "very flawed". because by then it would be treated like ambush spawn, which is must be abolished (according to majority) rather than improved

Edited December 7, 2020 by joevar

[Samz707]

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

Oh Three Houses Training Weapons are fantastic in Three Houses, even if they're stealing the name for a(n obvious) concept I came up with years ago. They're the most reliable weapons for actually hitting the enemy, which is a massive issue in Maddening, and they're high uses make them great for combat arms. I carry iron and steel weapons just in case I need the extra few might to get a kill I wouldn't otherwise, but I end up using training weapons far often because the higher hit is totally worth the reduce might.

That's kind of how the og Jeigan runs things. His stats are not impressive at all, like even compared to the units you get at the same time as him. But his weapon rank is high so he's the only unit that can use the silver lance for quite some time. And honestly I think that is a good balancing thing for units outside of typical "How many stats do they have." A unit who is weaker but with good weapon ranks, or a unit who is stronger but with bad weapon ranks (like Seteth) is an interesting way to provide more units that are distinct from each other.

Honestly I'm thinking of trying to avoid using them when I finish my first run through, Bernadetta with a training bow is I'm pretty sure not ment to be half as effective as I found it, since I'm usually having her weaken dudes for other units to finish off in a single round and how cheap the bow is means that durability with repairing isn't actually an issue so I can just spam weapon-arts that are more effective.

I guess maybe I was thinking they'red be some sort of "spar" option, where two allied units have a fight to the not-death (Like a non-lethal arena battle.) and both get  EXP depending on how long they both last, I was kinda expecting training swords to be for something like that and not "super-light wooden sword that I'm actually bringing into battle".

 

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by Samz707

[Francis]

A new type of avatar.

I remember when Echoes was first announced and a screenshot leaked, people didn't know who Faye was and many tought her sprite was the "avatar" one.
Me and my friend back then tought this new avatar could have been a new villager from Ram without much involvement in the story (like Klidd and Faye), and so just a random unit with some supports, with normal stats and limited classes.
I still think that's a very cool idea. I like avatars, but they really became less and less fascinating from game to game, with Kris and Robin being the most interesting ones and Corrin and Byleth the most absurd avatar IS could ever write.

New Mystery, Awakening, Fates and Three Houses spoilers!

Spoiler

We start with Kris being just a royal guard, and even if he is important to the story, he feel like a nice character, I must say.
Then we have Robin; he is just overpowered, gameplay-wise, and you can basically play every map just with him after a while. He basically become the protagonist of the third part of the story (vs Grima), but during the first two arcs he is just the co-protagonist, togheter with Lucina and Chrom, and I really liked it.
Sadly, Corrin become basically the center of Fates whole plot, he is realated with everyone and has every power, everyone loves him and bla bla. Boring story for a boring character. He isn't as strong as Robin, gameplay wise, but you have to use him for every chapter so he will eventually become good.

Byleth takes what Corrin is and make it even more exaggerate, being basically GOD. That's all.
And he doesn't even talk, he doesn't even have a true personality, he is just a silent reincarnation of a dead goddess. Also overpowered gameplay-wise.

I'd really like a game with that type of avatar.
Like, he/she could start as a Villager, being kinda weak, then you can reclass him/her in different classes for the two genders, and then stop, you can use that avatar as any other units without many interactions in the story. Like the random knight of the two cavaliers you get everytime you start a classic FE.

[Samz707]

19 minutes ago, Francis said:

A new type of avatar.

I remember when Echoes was first announced and a screenshot leaked, people didn't know who Faye was and many tought her sprite was the "avatar" one.
Me and my friend back then tought this new avatar could have been a new villager from Ram without much involvement in the story (like Klidd and Faye), and so just a random unit with some supports, with normal stats and limited classes.
I still think that's a very cool idea. I like avatars, but they really became less and less fascinating from game to game, with Kris and Robin being the most interesting ones and Corrin and Byleth the most absurd avatar IS could ever write.

 

Yeah I wish we'd get an avatar that feels more like a normal character in the setting rather than a super-unit who also ends up usually being the most important person in the plot.

Jagged Alliance 2 handled it kinda well, you got to make a custom unit and fully customize their stats but they weren't super important, they could even die and the game would continue,  the only real unique trait they had was that in a game about mercenaries who you had to pay (thus encouraging you to keep up the cash flow), they worked for free but even then JA2 has a whole bunch of characters native to the banana republic dictatorship it's set in (Such as mostly various rebels that you're helping out) that also work for free.

 

[henrymidfields]

On 12/7/2020 at 6:13 PM, joevar said:

agreed, this is one way to improve / spice things up in Weapon rank mechanism.

altho i want to suggest a little bit of the reverse.

i want weapon rank not gating/blocking usage of higher ranked weapon but instead give them penalty for using it. so taking weapon rank into "proficiency" and a little bit realistic. because it assume you are not used to that weapon, so you cant use it efficiently, rather than not capable using it at all like in every FE. so we dont need training weapon thats inferior every other weapon to get to use higher weapon.

because its a tool, im using the analogy of weight training where professional instructor would recommend you to advance into higher weight rather than making too many repetition just because you can, since you're already in "comfort zone". theres diminishing return of gains by sticking to lower tier/weight.  rather than using wooden weapon to gain more bigger Wexp to use silver, you actually use silver to speed rank into whatever rank silver is, it makes more sense that way.

so for example, char with C weapon proficiency could use Silver weapon with rank A, but have lower hit and Mt than someone who already have A rank, but gain more Wexp

Should there be bonuses for using lower rank weapons too? Like for example, boost hit rates or crit rates, or mitigate attack speed loss - as a way of saying that you are used to that weapon and can do cool kung-fu-like stuff with it? So say your character has A-rank in a particular weapon. She can use silver weapons as they are with guaranteed might/damage, or she can use her iron weapon and rely on her raised attack speed and gamble with her boosted crit.

[joevar]

On 12/31/2020 at 9:22 PM, henrymidfields said:

Should there be bonuses for using lower rank weapons too? Like for example, boost hit rates or crit rates, or mitigate attack speed loss - as a way of saying that you are used to that weapon and can do cool kung-fu-like stuff with it?

cool kung-fu stuff? maayyyybee.. (i mean, echoes basically did just that, use a weapon certain times you get fancy art move to it)

On 12/31/2020 at 9:22 PM, henrymidfields said:

She can use silver weapons as they are with guaranteed might/damage, or she can use her iron weapon and rely on her raised attack speed and gamble with her boosted crit.

i was thinking the former, so no need to downgrade to inferior weapon when possible. (not getting boost despite already achieve higher than needed rank). since it defeats the purpose, and people will just revert back to wooden or maybe paper sword if there are one when "lower rank/inferior weapon = higher boost"

Edited January 3, 2021 by joevar

[Samz707]

A system similar to JA2, Imagine essentially a more open SOV map kinda where you train Green Units to hold your territory as you slowly take back the country from an evil ruler, so it's about capturing and controlling mines and other sources of in-come so you can hire mercenary units/Milita Green units.

 

[henrymidfields]

Regarding attack speed, should weapon ranks and skill/dexterity play a role in mitigating being "weighed down"? Dexterity and weapon rank could be used to indicate how much a unit is used to using the particular type of weapon and counteract the weapon's "awkwardness" or "unwieldiness". Maybe Dexterity/10 for games with higher numbers of cap, and -1 to -3 (or more) effective weight for rank difference between unit and equipped weapon? (Like, an A-rank unit using a C-rank weapon.)

Edited January 3, 2021 by henrymidfields

[joevar]

42 minutes ago, henrymidfields said:

Regarding attack speed, should weapon ranks and skill/dexterity play a role in mitigating being "weighed down"? Dexterity and weapon rank could be used to indicate how much a unit is used to using the particular type of weapon and counteract the weapon's "awkwardness" or "unwieldiness". Maybe Dexterity/10 for games with higher numbers of cap, and -1 to -3 (or more) effective weight for rank difference between unit and equipped weapon? (Like, an A-rank unit using a C-rank weapon.)

it should. at least imo. a combination of rank and skill/dexterity affect speed. so character with low ranks but already have good base stat should not be blocked from using higher quality weapon. but the actual math is always subject to balancing, so something like weight and con in older FE games but without the actual stat maybe?