Dragons in 2020...

[SuperNova125]

Taking inspiration from a similar thread about cavalry units, I thought that perhaps dragons do deserve a mention when talking about classes that need some extra help. Dragon effectiveness is everywhere, countless personal weapons have it, there are 3 inheritable effective daggers, it arrives as a hone buff in Divine fang and even as a special to an extent. One of their niches which is adaptive damage is countered by an inheritable skill and the Julias. Last but not least, they are exempted from many skill inheritance options that truly can make some units stand out. For example units with the offensive spread and the weapon of Lilith or the fallen Corrins can't inherit Galeforce making them a pretty poor player phase options compared to other mellee nukes. Also infantry and fliers miss on damage reduction skills that can help tank what would otherwise be a kill. Even the ones that nullify effective damage have a drawback that doesn't make so appealing options. 

Do you think they need some help in form of skills, seals or something else or are they fine as it it? 

[Hilda]

Dragons are fine for what they have. Adaptive Damage against ranged units, very high bulk and tackling the weaker RES part against melees.

Having effective damage more accessible against them is a good thing, and it doesnt kill them.

They were for too long a time a brain dead option to use for the majority of FEHs time.
Dragons are in my eyes still fine for various modes. They dont need to excell at everything, just like Cavs dont need to excell at everything.

[XRay]

I have not noticed a lot of dragon Effective Weapons, but I have not used a lot of dragons either, so I probably just missed seeing them.

I think dragons are fine as is. If effective damage really is an issue, then the player can just run a different tanking teammate that can shield the dragon tank whenever necessary.

Personally though, I would also remove most class restrictions for skills on dragons since I highly doubt giving them Galeforce is going to break the game. I also do not think it is a bad idea to release Dragon Shield to get rid of that Effective weakness. If a dragon is running Dragon Shield instead of Spd/Res Solo, it means they are easier to kill and nuke down with regular nukes.

[Ice Dragon]

Dragons as individual units are currently in an excellent position.

The only real problem with dragons is the fact that a full team of dragons is nearly unviable due to the existence of a few extremely strong checks and counters that are relatively common in PvP content. It's basically required that you run at least one non-dragon on the team right now.

The main issue right now is the existence of Legendary Julia. Her Atk stat is busted, making her hard to tank even if you can nullify her effective damage, and her Res stat is busted, making it difficult to kill her, even if you survive her attacks. Light and Dark forces dragons to attack into her busted Res stat instead of her much weaker Def stat, and also makes it very difficult to boost your own stats to deal with her. An optimally built Julia without Dragonflowers or bonuses has an annoyingly high 41 effective Spd at neutral (32 at +10 merge, 7 from Life and Death 4, 2 from Light and Dark), which also makes it difficult to take her down on player phase without using one of the extremely fast player-phase dragons, like the Fallen Corrins or Winter Sothis.

On the subject of a "Dragon Shield" skill, I can see it being useful for dealing with some of the threats that aren't named Julia. Legendary Tiki in particular could use the skill pretty well since her A slot is relatively free, and she has otherwise good match-ups against the red dragonslayers and all other Tikis. As for Julia... her ridiculous 83 effective Atk (same setup as above, but with an Asset and Swift Sparrow 2 in the Sacred Seal slot) is already high enough to one-hit kill a lot of non-dragons, so I don't think it'll make enough of a difference against her. Maybe Legendary Corrin with a Dragon Shield Sacred Seal would be able to do it.

 

As for what I think would be most beneficial for dragons to receive right now (that isn't completely off the table like changing skill inheritance restrictions),

• A Hone or Drive version of "Dragon Shield". It would be much more useful than an A passive or a Sacred Seal.
• Sothis alts for every color. Doesn't actually have to be Sothis, just a fast dragon that nullifies effective damage. But Sothis would be nice because Sirius is a good skill. Also, she's cute and talks like an old geezer in Japanese.
• A green dragon with good magic bulk that always targets Def against ranged opponents instead of the lower of Def and Res. Basically Hel Scythe, but reversed. Bonus points if it has weapon triangle advantage against colorless.

Also better distribution for Goad Dragons. And a Goad Dragons Sacred Seal.

Edited August 31, 2020 by Ice Dragon

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

• A Hone or Drive version of "Dragon Shield". It would be much more useful than an A passive or a Sacred Seal.

I like that idea. It would be nice to allow super tanks offload more skill effects on to Drive buffers. We only have BH!Lucina right now to offload A slot Breath effect, but she does not work with dragons. I guess we also have stuff like Inf. Hexblade and Infantry Rush, but they either require adjacency or BH!Lucina simply outclasses them. If Ninian gets a Refine, I wish she can give Distant Counter to dragons via Drive effect.

I prefer the Drive version since it does not require units being adjacent.

Fliers would definitely appreciate being able to offload Iote's Shield too.

[Othin]

19 minutes ago, XRay said:

I like that idea. It would be nice to allow super tanks offload more skill effects on to Drive buffers. We only have BH!Lucina right now to offload A slot Breath effect, but she does not work with dragons. I guess we also have stuff like Inf. Hexblade and Infantry Rush, but they either require adjacency or BH!Lucina simply outclasses them. If Ninian gets a Refine, I wish she can give Distant Counter to dragons via Drive effect.

I prefer the Drive version since it does not require units being adjacent.

Fliers would definitely appreciate being able to offload Iote's Shield too.

Yeah, that'd be neat. There's even a status for it now.

It's funny how there are so many kinds of effects units can grant themselves with their skills and then those in turn tend to be viable to adapt into effects that grant them to allies, either as continuous effects or as statuses.

[NSSKG151]

I think dragons are fine as is. Though I also like the idea of there being a skill that negates dragon weakness since there are a lot of units these days with weapons that are strong against dragons.

[Nym]

I think one of the problems with dragons is the lack of player phase options.

Most dragons have a very defensive playstyle. It doesn't matter the movement type, most of them are enemy phase only. Newer dragons are given more tools to play with, but a vast majority of dragons are still enemy phase only.

[Othin]

2 hours ago, Nym said:

I think one of the problems with dragons is the lack of player phase options.

Most dragons have a very defensive playstyle. It doesn't matter the movement type, most of them are enemy phase only. Newer dragons are given more tools to play with, but a vast majority of dragons are still enemy phase only.

One thing they could do to address this is to pull a Legendary Leif and make a dragon with some sort of Galeforce-based prf. It'd only be one unit, but it'd be a unit with a role other dragons can't fill.

[Ice Dragon]

2 hours ago, Nym said:

I think one of the problems with dragons is the lack of player phase options.

Most dragons have a very defensive playstyle. It doesn't matter the movement type, most of them are enemy phase only. Newer dragons are given more tools to play with, but a vast majority of dragons are still enemy phase only.

14 of the game's 33 dragons have at least 34 neutral Spd (excluding Nils), and another 7 have access to Bold Fighter. Sure, many of them are easier to build for and use on enemy phase, but that doesn't mean that they are enemy phase only.

[Humanoid]

Just give us an inheritable Brave Breath+. 😛

 

Dragons seem generally fine to me. I say this because the amount of times I screw myself over by not bringing a counter and finding myself unable to kill an enemy dragon is roughly equal to the number of times I take a full dragon team and find myself completely helpless against hard counters. Sure, that might say more about my incompetence at building a balanced team than it does about the balance of dragons, but it does say that if the balance was pushed significantly in either direction, I wouldn't be having a good time with it.

That said, I'm not opposed to giving them some more interesting, but not necessarily more powerful options, like the aforementioned Brave Breath, or some cavalry options. Hell, Corrin looks more like a horse than a dragon, it's a huge missed opportunity to not have at least some of their alts be cavalry.

[Jotari]

Bit strange we don't have a Dragon Shield skill yet. Dragonskin would have been pretty apt for it, but instead for some baffling reason they made that an anti flying skill and gave it bracing stance. I find that a really weird decision for the final boss skill. By all rights it should be in those damage reduction dodge skill lists. But now it's on Female Grima forever. Kind of get waylaid there, it would have worked as a skill name for a Dragon Shield too, kind of, even though that would be a bit underwhelming for the skill, and merely dragon immunity on female Grima wouldn't have been great either. Whatever. I'm rambling. Give me my mounted dragon already. 

Edited August 31, 2020 by Jotari

[Hilda]

10 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

As for what I think would be most beneficial for dragons to receive right now (that isn't completely off the table like changing skill inheritance restrictions),

• A Hone or Drive version of "Dragon Shield". It would be much more useful than an A passive or a Sacred Seal.
• Sothis alts for every color. Doesn't actually have to be Sothis, just a fast dragon that nullifies effective damage. But Sothis would be nice because Sirius is a good skill. Also, she's cute and talks like an old geezer in Japanese.
• A green dragon with good magic bulk that always targets Def against ranged opponents instead of the lower of Def and Res. Basically Hel Scythe, but reversed. Bonus points if it has weapon triangle advantage against colorless.

Also better distribution for Goad Dragons. And a Goad Dragons Sacred Seal.

A Hone C or Drive Dragon Shield is definitly not the way to go. Dragons are fine. If anything it should be a B-Skill with a drawback in it. Just like mages with high RES and low Def sometimes need to sacrifice their B-Slot to deal with Dragons, Dragons should too:

Dragon Shield should be B-Slot skill that removes effectiv Dragon Damage but also takes away their ability to deal adaptiv damage.

Dragons are definitly fine and its not the Idea to run a Dragon Emblem and just push end turn.

Edited August 31, 2020 by Hilda

[Nym]

7 hours ago, Othin said:

One thing they could do to address this is to pull a Legendary Leif and make a dragon with some sort of Galeforce-based prf. It'd only be one unit, but it'd be a unit with a role other dragons can't fill.

I don't believe that's really helping the problem. You just leave all the older units to die in the dust while  only this unit in particular shines.

7 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

14 of the game's 33 dragons have at least 34 neutral Spd (excluding Nils), and another 7 have access to Bold Fighter. Sure, many of them are easier to build for and use on enemy phase, but that doesn't mean that they are enemy phase only.

You can give them as much speed as you want but if you don't have the weapon skills to back it up, it's mediocre offensive at best.

The problem is that all inheritable dragonstones are defensive: 

The most popular inheritable dragonstone is Lightening Breath and that's purely defensive. Forget about using it on offense, especially with the +1 special cooldown.

Dark Breath is... niche at best and not very useful for most dragons. It's also another defensive breath.

The most recent inheritable dragonstone is Glittering Breath and that's also purely defensive. Not to mention locked behind a seasonal unit.

Sure, IS can just keep putting newer dragons with unique breaths that are more offensive but that leaves the older dragons in the dust. Or even our most recent f2p dragon, Bantu, comes with Dark Breath. And I'm pretty sure that if someones has a +10 Bantu, they use Lightening Breath and enemy phase only just like Adult Tiki.

 

Edited August 31, 2020 by Nym

[Ice Dragon]

2 hours ago, Nym said:

You can give them as much speed as you want but if you don't have the weapon skills to back it up, it's mediocre offensive at best.

Of those 21 units, 5 of them have Distant Counter as their weapon effect (Sothis, Legendary Grima, Fallen Grima, Legendary Tiki, Fallen Tiki), all of whom have the stat spread and/or skill compatibility to use it as a dual-phase unit, only 1 has an effect that is only active on enemy phase (Summer Tiki), and 4 have a conditional stat-boosting effect is that is easier to activate on enemy phase (Winter Fae, male Adrift Corrin, female Adrift Corrin, female Kana), but of those 4, 2 of them have a Slaying weapon (male Adrift Corrin, female Adrift Corrin).

And honestly, who needs weapon effects when you have Bold Fighter and Special Fighter?

 

2 hours ago, Nym said:

The problem is that all inheritable dragonstones are defensive: 

This is not a problem because only 6 of the game's 33 dragons (34 counting Legendary Corrin) do not have a Prf weapon (Nowi, Fae, Winter Fae, Banutu, Ninian, male Kana), and of the 21 units listed above, only 1 of them is on this list (Winter Fae).

Whether inheritable weapons are defensive only matters if you're actually going to use them on units that can be built offensively, and the most popular inheritable dragonstone is Lightning Breath+, which is still plenty usable as a dual-phase weapon by armors due to Bold Fighter.

Edited August 31, 2020 by Ice Dragon

[SSbardock84]

I don't think they need too much. But it's odd there's no inheritable skill like Iote's shield (at least I don't think so). Maybe when laguz dragons come out there'll be one. I expect Dheginsea will have one, but whether or not it'll be an inheritable skill who can say.

[Jotari]

Oh! I've got one. Give me an inheritable Slaying Breath. Mila's prf weapon is really underwhelming and while Lightning Breath on her is pretty nice since I use her as an enemy phase thank, the fact that it extends her Special Charge is not welcome at all. I'd rather have 1 range and a quicker special charge so she can proc those devastating Bonfires on her top class defense. Actually a lot more inheritable weapons would be nice for dragons. They're so ridiculously prf orientated that there's a lack of variety to them (though strangely this is true for the Beast units too, yet it doesn't bother me there). Aside from Lightning Breath all the inheritable breaths right now are really ehhh. Slaying Breath would be a pretty excellent contender for lightning breath and even challenge some prf weapons (I could see myself maybe runing a Player Phase Grima with Bold Fighter if he had access to a Slaying Breath).

Edited September 1, 2020 by Jotari

[Hilda]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Oh! I've got one. Give me an inheritable Slaying Breath. Mila's prf weapon is really underwhelming and while Lightning Breath on her is pretty nice since I use her as an enemy phase thank, the fact that it extends her Special Charge is not welcome at all. I'd rather have 1 range and a quicker special charge so she can proc those devastating Bonfires on her top class defense. Actually a lot more inheritable weapons would be nice for dragons. They're so ridiculously prf orientated that there's a lack of variety to them (though strangely this is true for the Beast units too, yet it doesn't bother me there). Aside from Lightning Breath all the inheritable breaths right now are really ehhh. Slaying Breath would be a pretty excellent contender for lightning breath and even challenge some prf weapons (I could see myself maybe runing a Player Phase Grima with Bold Fighter if he had access to a Slaying Breath).

In what world is Milas weapon ehh? it basicly covers the whole map for a support weapon. Its meant to be a support weapon that also boosts her Def a bit so her kit works.

[Jotari]

19 minutes ago, Hilda said:

In what world is Milas weapon ehh? it basicly covers the whole map for a support weapon. Its meant to be a support weapon that also boosts her Def a bit so her kit works.

I just find +2 to be a very minor bonus. I just find it's very rare wherein +2  is going to make a big difference unless it's overcoming a speed barrier. I think it's great conceptually as it's like Mila's blessing the land itself with her coverage, I just wish it was +3 instead. Sure it can stack with other combat boosts, but they won't be coming from Mila herself unless you ditch her very good C skill (well outside of Seals). As for the defense boost it gives her, I can get more of that by forging a LIghtning Breath for defense +4 and Hp+5.

Edited September 1, 2020 by Jotari

[Hilda]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I just find +2 to be a very minor bonus. Sure it can stack with other things, but it's very rare wherein +2  is going to make a big difference unless it's overcoming a speed barrier. I think it's great conceptually as it's like Mila's blessing the land itself with her coverage, I just wish it was +3 instead. As for the defense boost it gives her, I can get more of that by forging a LIghtning Breath for defense +4 and Hp+5.

her weapon is perfect for the game mode (AR) she is designed for. You can place her anywhere on the screen to block dancers/rally traps and not worry about her position to give out buffs to your main units.

+2 to all (or any stat) can mean the difference between a tanks death or for a nuke to be able to kill the target. Mila was specific designed for AR. Her Weapon works perfect for her kit, I rather have +2 and no position requirement then +4 and being within 2 spaces of the tank unit and THEN NOT being able to block a Dancer. Seriously...

[Jotari]

3 minutes ago, Hilda said:

her weapon is perfect for the game mode (AR) she is designed for. You can place her anywhere on the screen to block dancers/rally traps and not worry about her position to give out buffs to your main units.

+2 to all (or any stat) can mean the difference between a tanks death or for a nuke to be able to kill the target. Mila was specific designed for AR. Her Weapon works perfect for her kit, I rather have +2 and no position requirement then +4 and being within 2 spaces of the tank unit and THEN NOT being able to block a Dancer. Seriously...

Okay, fair enough.

[Roflolxp54]

Dragons don't really need too much help, especially in the PvE side of things. Heck, they likely don't really need much help in AR if there are still some players who use them. Sure, there are dragonkillers out there but that's mainly prevalent in Astral AR thanks to the existence of Thrasir and Julia.

It's more that dragons are kind of being brought down a notch to be at a similar "power level" compared to other unit types since more checks and counters are introduced for them after the Weapon Refinery update made them a little too good. Fliers are already generally countered by an entire weapon type and are held back a bit by the often stated poor availability of skills, cavs are held back by trenches and low BSTs, and armors are held back by potentially large investment costs, poor mobility, and being countered by generally common armorkiller weapons.

Edited September 2, 2020 by Roflolxp54