Hard Playthrough

[Shadow Mir]

On 8/30/2020 at 10:36 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

I don't know if Shinon counts as good, but I like him.

Well, to his credit, he's good early on since he's about the only reliable ranged attacker you have at that point. Even considering he's attacking resistance, Soren is weak starting out, and  Javelins and Hand Axes are rather inaccurate. By the time you get him back (IF you do), his bases are not good any more, and his growths cannot make up for them.

On 9/5/2020 at 4:40 PM, Benice said:

No, but double effectiveness does make the game easier than it would be otherwise. Marcia can go ham with the moment she joins because of this-None of the pegasi in FE7 or FE8 can say that. Bows, and especially magic, are a minor deterrent.

Let's see here...

Looking at the enemies in her joining chapter:

Spoiler

 

2x Lv 8 Fighter (steel axe)

30 hp, 20 atk, 0 AS, 79 hit, 2 avo, 6 def, 2 res 3 crit, 2 cev

2x Lv 11 Fighter (steel axe)

34 hp, 22 atk, 4 AS, 82 hit, 11 avo, 7 def, 3 res, 3 crit, 3 cev

1x Lv 11 Fighter (poleax)

32 hp, 20 atk, 0 AS, 77 hit, 3 avo, 7 def, 3 res, 3 crit, 3 cev

1x Lv 9 Bandit (venin axe)

33 hp, 15 atk, 7 AS, 70 hit, 16 avo, 5 def, 1 res, 2 crit, 2 cev

1x Lv 9 Myrmidion (iron sword)

22 hp, 13 atk, 10 AS, 112 hit, 22 avo, 5 def, 2 res, 5 crit, 2 cev

1x Lv 12 Myrmidion (iron sword)

24 hp, 14 atk, 12 AS, 115 hit, 27 avo, 6 def, 3 res, 5 crit, 3 cev

1x Lv 13 Myrmidion (steel sword)

25 hp, 17 atk, 10 AS, 102 hit, 23 avo, 6 def, 3 res, 6 crit, 3 cev

1x Lv 10 Soldier (steel lance)

28 hp, 17 atk, 2 AS, 88 hit, 6 avo, 8 def, 3 res, 4 crit, 2 cev

1x Lv 11 Soldier (steel lance)

28 hp, 18 atk, 3 AS, 90 hit, 8 avo, 8 def, 4 res, 4 crit, 2 cev

2x Lv 11 Knight (steel lance, 1 vulnerary)

28 hp, 20 Atk, 0 AS, 86 hit, 2 avo, 15 def, 5 res, 3 crit, 2 cev

1x Lv 13 Knight (steel lance)

29 hp, 21 atk, 2 AS, 92 hit, 7 avo, 16 def, 7 res, 3 crit, 3 cev

1x Lv 10 Archer (steel bow)

24 hp, 15 atk, 5 AS, 96 hit, 12 avo, 8 def, 3 res, 6 crit, 2 cev

1x Lv 11 Archer (steel bow)

24 hp, 16 atk, 7 AS, 97 hit, 17 avo, 8 def, 4 res, 6 crit, 3 cev

4x Lv 6 Mage (thunder)

19 hp, 11 atk, 4 AS, 94 hit, 9 avo, 3 def, 7 res, 7 crit, 1 cev

1x Lv 9 Mage (wind)

20 hp, 10 atk, 8 AS, 118 hit, 17 avo, 4 def, 9 res, 3 crit, 1 cev

1x Lv 10 Mage (fire)

22 hp, 12 atk, 7 AS, 113 hit, 15 avo, 5 def, 9 res, 3 crit, 1 cev

1x Lv 3 Kotaff (knight killer, javelin, arms scroll [d])

37 hp, 21 atk, 12 AS, 108 hit, 34 avo, 12 def, 7 res, 7 crit, 10 cev

Turn 5 Reinforcements:

1x Bandit lv 10 (venin axe)

34 hp, 15 atk, 7 AS, 70 hit, 16 avo, 5 def, 1 res, 2 crit, 2 cev

1x Bandit lv 10 (hand axe)

34 hp, 17 atk, 5 AS, 65 hit, 12 avo, 5 def, 1 res, 2 crit, 2 cev

Nedata lv 18 (venin axe)

40 hp, 20 atk, 12 AS, 75 hit, 25 avo, 9 def, 5 res, 3 crit, 1 cev

Turn 6 Reinforcements:

2x Lv 9 Bandit (venin axe)

33 hp, 15 atk, 7 AS, 70 hit, 16 avo, 5 def, 1 res, 2 crit, 2 cev

Event (someone moves close to the boss):

2x Myrmidon lv 11 (steel sword)

24 hp, 17 atk, 8 AS, 100 hit, 19 avo, 6 def, 2 res, 5 crit, 3 cev

1x Myrmidon lv 13 (iron sword)

25 hp, 15 atk, 13 AS, 117 hit, 29 avo, 6 def, 3 res, 6 crit, 3 cev

1x Myrmidon lv 13 (steel sword)

25 hp, 18 atk, 11 AS, 104 hit, 25 avo, 6 def, 3 res, 6 crit, 3 cev

1x Soldier lv 11 (javelin)

28 hp, 14 atk, 5 AS, 80 hit, 12 avo, 8 def, 3 res, 4 crit, 2 cev

1x Soldier lv 12 (iron lance)

29 hp, 15 atk, 9 AS, 101 hit, 21 avo, 9 def, 3 res, 4 crit, 3 cev

1x Knight lv 13 (steel lance)

30 hp, 21 atk, 2 AS, 87 hit, 7 avo, 16 def, 6 res, 3 crit, 3 cev

 

Discounting the fact that some of these might have already been killed before she shows up, she is 2HKOed by all Knights, Fighters and Archers (the latter in particular come really close to OHKOing her), and Steel Sword Myrmidons as well as Soldiers still leave a mark on her (to say nothing of possible crit from the Myrmidons). Sounds like having her "go ham" in her joining chapter is only going to get her killed.

On 9/5/2020 at 4:40 PM, Benice said:

They sure as heck die easily, but they have somewhat high attack and can pose a threat-The hardest chapter in Sacred Stones has only monster enemies.

If the one you're talking about is also the one I think you mean, then you get another powerful prepromo right before it. Also of note, Sacred Stones has a class that ruins monsters' day.

On 9/5/2020 at 4:40 PM, Benice said:

But he doesn't require seeing combat to level up-Bonus experience exists.

True, but at the same time, feeding him BEXP has a pretty big opportunity cost because I could have used it to level up anyone else. Which reminds me, one of the big complaints I see about BEXP is that while it could be used to catch up weaker units like Rolf, it could also be used to make the already good units, like Oscar, Kieran or what have you even better. This, among other reasons, is why Path of Radiance is considered one of the easier games in the series.

On 9/5/2020 at 4:40 PM, Benice said:

Because if you're going to bother using Rolf, he needs it. There's no actual reason to use Amelia either, since she has 4 move and takes time to raise. Why deploy her over the pegasi, Cormag, Franz, etc? Because some people just like using bad units. That's just how it be.

He might need it, but it isn't like he's entitled to it. In any instance, I don't mind using bad units, but there's only so far I'm willing to go in terms of using a bad unit, and Rolf requires too much.

On 9/5/2020 at 4:40 PM, Benice said:

Again, I'm not arguing that Rolf is good-I'm arguing that he's easier to use than the trainees! If we were talking about efficiency and effective play, or even "Is x unit worth deploying," neither Rolf nor the trainees should be anywhere in the conversation.

I'm not talking about either of those. And I still disagree with your point about Rolf being easier to raise.

On 9/5/2020 at 4:40 PM, Benice said:

Mist's the only one who really needs dat BEXP. Marcia's good enough at base, Nephenee can get easy kills with Wrath abuse, Jill has speedwings the chapter after she joins and her bases are otherwise good enough-There's nothing wrong with giving Rolf a few levels. He's bad, but it's still much, much faster than Tower Grinding. PoR is still fairly easy without using any BEXP at all.

On what, easy mode? Looking at those stats I posted earlier, I would have to be careful with Marcia starting out, because it's not like she can effortlessly smite enemies or shrug off anything physical. Trying to make use of Wrath is very risky at this point, as one good hit, and Nephenee goes down like a sack of potatoes. 

Spoiler

1x Fighter lv 1 [v] (iron axe)

24 hp, 13 atk, 0 AS, 81 hit, 0 avo, 3 def, 0 res, 1 crit, 0 cev

1x Fighter lv 1 [v] (hand axe)

24 hp, 12 atk, 0 AS, 61 hit, 0 avo, 3 def, 0 res, 1 crit, 0 cev

2x Myrmidon lv 1 [v] (iron sword)

17 hp, 9 atk, 2 AS, 100 hit, 4 avo, 3 def, 0 res, 2 crit, 0 cev

1x Myrmidon lv 2 [v] (iron sword)

18 hp, 9 atk, 3 AS, 102 hit, 6 avo, 3 def, 0 res, 3 crit, 0 cev

1x Lance Knight lv 11 (steel lance)

28 hp, 19 atk, 6 AS, 85 hit, 15 avo, 11 def, 4 res, 3 crit, 3 cev

3x Lance Knight lv 12 (steel lance)

27 hp, 20 atk, 7 AS, 85 hit, 17 avo, 11 def, 4 res, 3 crit, 3 cev

3x Lance Knight lv 13 (steel lance)

29 hp, 20 atk, 8 AS, 85 hit, 19 avo, 11 def, 4 res, 3 crit, 3 cev

1x Lance Knight lv 14 (steel lance)

28 hp, 20 atk, 8 AS, 90 hit, 20 avo, 12 def, 5 res, 4 crit, 4 cev

3x Sword Knight lv 13 (steel sword)

28 hp, 18 atk, 9 AS, 93 hit, 22 avo, 12 def, 4 res, 3 crit, 4 cev

1x Bow Knight lv 11 (iron bow)

27 hp, 16 atk, 10 AS, 100 hit, 23 avo, 11 def, 4 res, 3 crit, 3 cev

2x Knight lv 13 (steel lance)

29 hp, 21 atk, 2 AS, 89 hit, 7 avo, 16 def, 5 res, 4 crit, 3 cev

1x Knight lv 12 (javelin)

29 hp, 17 atk, 4 AS, 76 hit, 10 avo, 17 def, 5 res, 3 crit, 2 cev

1x Soldier lv 9 (steel lance)

26 hp, 17 atk, 1 AS, 88 hit, 4 avo, 7 def, 3 res, 4 crit, 2 cev

2x Soldier lv 10 (steel lance)

28 hp, 18 atk, 3 AS, 90 hit, 8 avo, 8 def, 3 res, 4 crit, 2 cev

2x Myrmidon lv 9 (steel sword)

23 hp, 16 atk, 6 AS, 97 hit, 14 avo, 5 def, 2 res, 5 crit, 2 cev

1x Mage lv 12 (fire)

23 hp, 13 atk, 9 AS, 111 hit, 20 avo, 5 def, 10 res, 3 crit, 2 cev

1x Mage lv 12 (wind)

22 hp, 12 atk, 10 AS, 118 hit, 22 avo, 5 def, 10 res, 4 crit, 2 cev

1x Thief lv 3 (knife)

17 hp, 6 atk, 10 AS, 107 hit, 21 avo, 2 def, 0 res, 6 crit, 1 cev

1x Thief lv 6 (knife)

20 hp, 7 atk, 12 AS, 112 hit, 26 avo, 3 def, 1 res, 7 crit, 2 cev

2x Priest lv 12 (heal)

24 hp, 7 AS, 20 avo, 3 def, 15 res, 6 cev

Mackoya lv 5 (laguzslayer, iron bow, master seal [d])

35 hp, 22 atk, 13 AS, 108 hit, 31 avo, 14 def, 12 res, 7 crit, 5 cev

Turn 5 Reinforcements:

2x Wyvern Rider lv 12 (iron lance)

29 hp, 19 atk, 7 AS, 100 hit, 16 avo, 14 def, 4 res, 4 crit, 2 cev

These are the enemy stats from the chapter the player can first use Nephenee in. What exactly can she kill by abusing Wrath, knowing that if she doesn't kill, she's very likely getting killed??? Not much, if these stats are any indication, since most of the enemies are units she struggles to damage.

[Benice]

7 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Discounting the fact that some of these might have already been killed before she shows up,

I mean, shouldn't basically everything be dead by the time she shows up? I killed the boss the turn after she appeared. (And I play at the pace of a sack of potatoes)The next chapter is also a really easy grind chapter if you opt not to go the bexp route.

7 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Sounds like having her "go ham" in her joining chapter is only going to get her killed.

Ah, on the contrary, my good fellow! She can abuse the heck out of canto with her high movement and lack of terrain penalties!

Super Canto allows for really aggressive moves with Marcia. She can easily chip in or kill from anywhere at any time, and she's tanky enough that it would take serious misplacement to kill her-Letting her get attacked by two Steel axes would be a mistake to begin with. In addition, she doubles every soldier on the map with a javelin, and if you get her an iron lance, she will exactly 2RKO the soldiers- which is significant, as she can use super canto to retreat a little and undo any damage she takes from her Player Phase action. She also ORKO's the fire and thunder mages, as well as the archers, assuming she has access to an iron lance. Technically, she can also use the steel lance to deal some extra damage, although it's certainly not optimal.

The only enemies who would really warrant being very cautious with Marcia would be the bandit reinforcements, and the archers, who aren't that hard to block due to their placement. (And the armor knights, but they're a non-issue due to their low movement and hitrates.)

26 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

If the one you're talking about is also the one I think you mean, then you get another powerful prepromo right before it.

Duessel is definitely a superb unit for this map. However, the mogalls mean that he cannot simply solo the map, as they deal around eight to eleven-ish damage, as far as I remember. A pure water does fix this problem, but it doesn't change the fact that if he has 1-2 range, Mogalls will try not to attack him, and they will be even less inclined to do so with a pure water.

32 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Also of note, Sacred Stones has a class that ruins monsters' day.

The problem with this is that the only bishop, Artur, at level 20/1, (which he really shouldn't be at) has 32 HP and 8 defense-Even revenants rip through that, and the wight/promoted zombie will deal a thicc ton of damage. (Plus the fact that if you were indeed grinding up levels, Phantom Ship really shouldn't be too tricky.)

35 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

True, but at the same time, feeding him BEXP has a pretty big opportunity cost because I could have used it to level up anyone else. Which reminds me, one of the big complaints I see about BEXP is that while it could be used to catch up weaker units like Rolf, it could also be used to make the already good units, like Oscar, Kieran or what have you even better. This, among other reasons, is why Path of Radiance is considered one of the easier games in the series.

Yes, this is true. I still think that that this game is easy without Bexp, since, as you say, it's more often than not used to snap the game in half with a good unit. Kieran, for example, doubles almost everything at base level. BEXP only really makes it overkill, which is admittedly a good thing if you're playing to break the game. While there are certainly better units to give BEXP to than Rolf, giving BEXP to Rolf ain't the same thing as using only Nobles and Commoners in Three Houses.

38 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

In any instance, I don't mind using bad units, but there's only so far I'm willing to go in terms of using a bad unit, and Rolf requires too much.

Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

39 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

These are the enemy stats from the chapter the player can first use Nephenee in. What exactly can she kill by abusing Wrath, knowing that if she doesn't kill, she's very likely getting killed??? Not much, if these stats are any indication, since most of the enemies are units she struggles to damage.

Enemy placement also is important here-she can, for example, safely reach Wrath range by baiting out one of the steel lance cavs near your starting position then huck javelins with a chance to kill or attack with an iron lance if there's an enemy who wouldn't kill on the retaliation-And her strength problems can be somewhat mitigated with a forged iron lance. Nephenee is a pretty dang eh unit, but Wrath is certainly a viable tool to get her kills in several maps without BEXP, and units like Ilyana or Ike w/effective weaponry can provide excellent chip for Neph.