Summoning Luck vs. Strategical Merging: Discussion on the overall worth of the IVcado

[MilodicMellodi]

Honestly, I put most of my creativity into the title of this thread, so you won't have to read much before you scroll down to another comment. I'll just say my stuff that's on my mind and let the ball start rolling.

Trait Fruits (or as I like to call them, IVcados), affect units of different merge levels...well, differently. Unmerged units are by far the most affected by them, because for the most part an unmerged unit can potentially have 4 of their 5 stats altered (boon gained, boon lost, bane gained, bane lost); this is only if the first boon and bane are both different from the second boon and bane. I feel it's a good point to make because merged units can only have a max of 2 stats affected since they lack banes, making them less affected by the stat changes than unmerged units.

And so...merging. With each new copy of a unit, there's a chance that one of the units' boons will already be the desired one. And so, for up to 22k feathers (if the desired unit is unluckily at 3 stars) you can raise your stats and eliminate your bane; and even if you didn't get the desired boon this time, you have a seemingly infinite number of chances to merge on a unit with the right boon (since merging only stops when the main unit is at +10). Suddenly, the IVcado doesn't seem all that important...at least, to commonly summoned units it doesn't.

Rare units, however, have a much higher need for them. When a unit just isn't getting any merges, the ability to change its IVs without merging becomes very important. This is even more important to units that don't have natural access to IVs, because even with merging they'd require IVcados to gain a boon (and bane if unmerged).

What are your guys' thoughts on the worth of changing boons/banes? I'd like to see your opinions 🙂

[Faellin]

I would prioritize units you like above all else who have bad IV spreads, then units who you use simply because they are good. Since most units released post 2019 typically can work with any IV and still be usable. Very few truly become godawful with a bad spread.

But it all comes down to just how frequently we'll get them.

If its 100 a month, which I would say is plenty reasonable for F2P users. Then my opinion would change vastly on this matter.

Edited September 1, 2020 by Faellin

[Humanoid]

I very rarely use unmerged units for anything, because any unit that I like using I'll generally get to at least +1. Indeed, scrolling through my barracks right now I can only see two: Trio Palla, who is a perfect +Atk -Res anyway, and the free neutral Peony. I suppose in theory my +Atk -HP Evil Ike is also quite powerful but I never remember to use him. Oh, and there's -Atk Brave Ephraim who I use as an Armor March-bot, but I have two spare Amelias so I could replace him with just about anyone if I was serious about building a proper armour team. I would sooner just spend 40k feathers on Flame Emperor and give him DC, Special Fighter and Armor March than spend any IVCados on Ephraim.

As a result, my plan is pretty simple:

1) Grail units who I have merged to +10. At the moment this is only Kronya, Marthed Mask and Aversa, and even then Aversa is a bit iffy because she'd lose HP if I went to +Spd. Future candidates might be Valentine's Titania and Mininerva.

2) Strong current 5-star exclusives who already have at least one merge and am done actively merging. Prime candidates would be my Spd-boon +2 Legendary Julia and my HP-boon +1 Legendary Celica. Duo Ephraim and Altina are a half-step behind because Neutral +1 is already pretty solid on them.

3) Only if they're unexpectedly generous with IVCados, older but still useful merged 5-star exclusives, such as my Spd-boon +4 Legendary Ephraim and (all +1) my Def-boon Celica and Deirdre and HP-boon Elincia, Flying Nino and Alm. Again, Neutrals are a half-step behind, most notably Mage Eirika and M Byleth (not so old but I rarely have reason to use him). I suppose I might through Ophelia in this category too. One merge and +HP, I know she can be a broken monster but I just despise her so it's tough.

Edited September 1, 2020 by Humanoid

[XRay]

1. Grail units should have priority in my opinion since they cannot get any Traits other than neutral.

2. Any 5* exclusive units who are already merged to +10 are the next priority since you are probably not going to try to summon any more of them.

3. Any 5* exclusive units that have not reached +10 that you do not plan to merge anymore.

4. Everyone else.

[Othin]

I think specifics are hard to determine until we find out the rate of gaining Trait Fruits. Personally I'm expecting it'll take about three months for each trait change, although I'd love for it to turn out faster.

My first priority is probably Fallen Lyon, since I use him all the time in AR and he currently has an awful +Spd/-Atk trait, and he's got good fodder so I don't expect to merge any duplicates. I have a few grail units at +10, but some of them are in positions where choosing a trait could be hard. For example, Aversa wants +Atk or +Spd when I'm using her with Raudhrblade in Abyssal maps, but she wants +HP in AR, and her current neutral trait gives her +1 to each of those. So even if one of them seems like an improvement, I feel like I wouldn't be getting much benefit out of it.

[SuperNova125]

For me the units that will get priority are units that are hard to merge or snipe for in order to get a nature. My Legendary Edelgard for example is +Spd +1 to get her a +Atk it would take lots of orbs and the result is not even guaranteed. So with the IVcado I can simply make her +Atk -Def and have 49 base Atk at +1 with flower help. There also units like Mila that even unmerged want a specific stat raised and only one can be safely reduced, that's why I will make her +Def -Spd especially since next time she will be summonable is in February of 2021 and she will be sharing with 2 other units and even unmerged she can work. Grail units like my +10 Aversa can get +Hp however it's not necessary right now, or flame emperor can get the Res superboon however he isn't even +10 yet. Other grails units like Ashnard or Mininerva aren't built yet. So for me they are better used to save orbs by changing the traits of 5* exclusives I use a lot. 

[Fabulously Olivier]

I think the priority goes something like:

 

Top priority - grail units

Giving them access to boons.

 

Second highest priority - 5 star exclusive units, fully merged

Saves needless orb expenditure to correct boon/change build

 

Third highest priority - common (3-4 star) units, fully merged 

Saves needless feather expenditure to correct boon/change build

 

Fourth highest priority - 5 star exclusive units, unmerged or partially merged

Saves cost in obtaining additional copies. 

 

Lowest priority - Common units, unmerged or partially merged

Don't do this.

Edited September 1, 2020 by Fabulously Olivier

[Flying Shogi]

I think the best option would be to focus on 5* exclusive or neutral locked units that you use the most. However, a good point that was brought up is the possibility of getting copies down the line or going for merges so it might be wise to hold off for a little bit until you've decided the game plan for the unit as you can very well pull the asset you're aiming for the next time they show up. I think the biggest risk would be using the fruit on units that you use a lot and don't actively plan on merging but wouldn't say no to more merges to. 

[Xenomata]

Did I give my opinion on this topic already? I feel like I did. I'm gonna repeat my opinion.

Spoiler

 

I think this is a very important addition, as now there is no longer a reason to bemoan horrible luck when summoning (about traits, not actually summoning the desired units). I mean, half of the time in the early days my luckiest summons were downright unusable because of bad asset/flaw combos, and every other day you get someone in the Official Pull Topic taking about the trait they got. These days the best I can hope for is +HP -Res because for most units that's technically neutral, if not actually getting Neutral. But now the only thing that will matter is... well, just having the unit at all. We just had the ability to get a free CYL4 unit, and now not even a whole month later we can give them an ideal Asset and Flaw.

I'm not sure there's that strong a desire for me to alter the traits of my Grail units though. The thing about most units in the summoning pool these days is that they have Growth Rates and stat totals specifically designed for a powerful end goal, such as Brave Edelgard having one of the highest Attack stats in the game, or a high-speed unit that comes with the ever-coveted Evasion skill series. Grail units meanwhile... I mean, it's not like they don't still have a goal, but Neutral has always been perfectly usable on them, and unlike summonable units they never have superboons in the right stats, if any superboons at all (looking at you, Jorge). Meanwhile I have two +10 merge units who only became +10 because I wasn't able to summon them with a specific asset, and a large number of other units who I am very unlikely to summon many extra copies of with either the previously mentioned +HP -Res combo or frankly bad traits (my Mila is -Def for gods sake).

My point is that I like the addition, I think it's an important addition for the future of this game now that we don't have to also worry about having a good combination of traits, and I'm just as excited to give my Grail units the boost that has always made them just a tad less desired compared to summonable units (Legion specifically), but... for me personally, I just don't have a reason to actually do that yet. Maybe if I ran Aversa and needed the HP boost sooner than later, but I'd rather burn my trait fruits on the flames emitted from Surtr's bowel movements before she gets any special treatment from me.

I know the thing that has always held back Grail units was their lack of traits compared to summonable units (that and how impossible it was to actually merge them), but... well guess what, I have all these Grail units, but not really all the units who these grail units get compared to, that or I don't like the units these grail units get compared to. And among those units that I do have, I'm gonna care a lot more about the stronger ones than their bargain bin competitors.

 

 

Edited September 1, 2020 by Xenomata

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Third highest priority - common (3-4 star) units, fully merged 

Saves needless feather expenditure to correct boon/change build

Feathers are really cheap though. The average player gets 20,000+ Feathers per week. Unless they are giving out Trait Fruits like Feathers, I rather spend 20,000 Feathers to correct a Trait than using a Trait Fruit to correct a Trait.

[Fabulously Olivier]

31 minutes ago, XRay said:

Feathers are really cheap though. The average player gets 20,000+ Feathers per week. Unless they are giving out Trait Fruits like Feathers, I rather spend 20,000 Feathers to correct a Trait than using a Trait Fruit to correct a Trait.

The value of such is still higher than priorities 4 and 5 as outlined in my post.

 

The fact of the matter is that yes, feathers are a semi-plentiful resource. But they are also a high demand resource. It is impossible to have too many feathers, and any increase in supply may lead to increased merge projects.

 

And I plan to do so myself to correct my +atk Lon'qu to +spd and potentially change Chrom's and/or Robin's IVs in future.

Edited September 1, 2020 by Fabulously Olivier

[XRay]

6 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

The value of such is still higher than priorities 4 and 5 as outlined in my post.

 

The fact of the matter is that yes, feathers are a semi-plentiful resource. But they are also a high demand resource. It is impossible to have too many feathers, and any increase in supply may lead to increased merge projects.

 

And I plan to do so myself to correct my +atk Lon'qu to +spd and potentially change Chrom's and/or Robin's IVs in future.

Feathers are a high demand resource, but Fruit Traits also seem to be a high demand resource. There are a lot of Grails units to go through, and veteran players may also have a lot of units at 5*+10 already that may need fixing. Feather usage also drops off as a player completes their core Arena units and core Aether Raids super tanks. Merging units to +10 is not necessary for every unit nor every mode, and getting someone to +4 or +5 is sufficient in most cases. For player phase units in particular, if a player wants to use them in Aether Raids, it is generally a bad idea to merge nukes if they go above the 40 HP threshold which makes them vulnerable to level 1 Bolt Traps, but they do not get enough Atk/Spd to compensate for that weakness.

While we do not know the rate of Trait Fruit acquisition, I do not think they are going to give out so much Trait Fruits that we can change the Trait of one unit every single week. Until we know for sure, it is safe to assume that Trait Fruits would be a lot slower to obtain compared to Feathers. Assuming the rate of Trait Fruit acquisition is going to allow players one Trait change per month, I do not think it is a good idea to spend a month's worth of gameplay to fix something that can be accomplished with 1 week of gameplay.

[bottlegnomes]

High priority grail units > 5* exclusives that would be useful > low priority grail units > the trash in my garbage can > 3-4*s

Grail units are obvious. They're feasible to +10 and have no other means of getting assets other than neutral. The high priority ones are favorite characters that are already merge projects and I plan on using just for fun, so they'd get a lot of mileage. The low priority ones are characters I like, but who'd be grail projects if I ever finish my high priority ones. Since they probably won't see as much use as the really strong 5*s and the ones I like, but again, it's their only access to assets.

5*s probably won't be seeing too much since while their assets and flaws are more difficult to get ideal of, they'll probably never be my major investment projects since I have no desire to hoard orbs to +10 any. That said, there are some with terrible flaws that, while performing well as is, could be way better with their ideal assets. My -atk Lysithea is the first that comes to mind. 7 damage isn't massive, but it's certainly not small.

The vast majority of 3-4* units I either have all of their ideal assets for or don't have at all. The few that I both have and don't have an ideal asset for will probably show up eventually, can function relatively well since they can easily erase their flaw (unlike the 5*s), and generally there's one with a decent enough asset. With as rare as I'm imagining them being, it just seems like a waste to use them on someone that functions nearly optimally and/or will probably fix themselves in due course.

[Baldrick]

Once I've given Trait fruits to all the Grail units that I want to have boons, I will give them to my best rare units that have a bane in their key stat. My candidates are - Spd Green Olwen, - Atk Legend Marth, and -Atk Brigid.

I think it's better to build a stash of fruit rather than spend them on common units. In 11 copies, chances are that at least one will have a worthwhile IV, even if it's a unit that only wants one IV you can always leave them at +9 and wait until you get the one you need.

[Roflolxp54]

Grail and Forma units are typically first priority since they're locked to neutral stats by default -- they can only get Assets via Trait Fruits.

Aside from that, it's pretty much faves, especially those pulled as 5*-exclusive one-offs, or they're absolutely needed to meet a very specific benchmark.

Merge projects shouldn't need Trait Fruits unless your luck with Assets was against you (ie. these Trait Fruits would've helped me with my Ares merge project back then since I wouldn't have needed to wait for a +Atk copy when he was already at +9 merge with more than enough copies and feathers to make him +10).

Edited September 2, 2020 by Roflolxp54

[Mercakete]

For me, it allows me to truly bring out the potential of units I've already worked on or units I want to work on. In some cases, I've kind of been waiting for "THE nature" before really diving in to building a unit. Being f2p, though, it's not like I get those that often. This lets me line up unites in a queue and shift the ones I managed to summon into the natures I want so I can really commit to building them. 🙂

[SockPuppet]

I think I’ll 100% commit to grail units only, personally. I don’t regularly use anybody who doesn’t already have ideal IVs, is +1 or is at the very least equipped with a bane/boon to my liking. I use Mareeta in AA a LOT, like guaranteed weekly, and she is -Atk+HP, but I don’t use her too much outside if there; on top of this, she is relatively IV proof and I’m not like the hugest fan of character anyway, so I’m not gonna waste on non-faves to begin with.
 

Gerome, H Rolf, Lyon, S Rhys, P Leo... my boys, and they all deserve a trait fruit. 
 

I have a -Spd+Res S Wolt who i use a LOT, and he is probably the only 5* I would consider using it on if we get trait fruits as a reasonable pace. That bane hurts me, and I would probably do a quick 180 on him. Other than that...  well, I can’t think of anybody. But it might be a heavily used seasonal.

[Melo]

1 - Grail units, I'm excited to put my NY Eir and Naesala in + spd.
2 - Seasonal Units, are generally more difficult to catch merges and achieve the desired trait, NY Lethe and Spring Fir are cases that I think would be worth using the item.
3 - Units in which a certain combination of trait saves me in long-term merges, Igrene with a trait + atk -spd gains attack point before speed, allowing me to take an additional atk with 6 merges, any other combination would require her to get +7.