A guide for the first half of CQ Lunatic

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

Chapter 4. Did not know you could go north fast enough. My bad.

Chapter 9. That was a misunderstanding on my part then, sorry.

Chapter 10. I messed up thinking that the eastern bridge had Seal Defence Spear Fighters, but they are not, sorry. Maybe mention that Takumi must be killed before turn 7 as on the start of 7 (I think?) he automatically activates DV?

In you interlude between chapter 8-9 you write: “We've got a lot of gold now so it's time to upgrade our enemies and you can even get a few tonics if you like.” I assume the bolded is a typo?

Oh yeah, Adventurer Nyx would probably make a better partner for Leo than Niles. At S-Rank we look at +3Mag/+6Spd/+2Res/+1Mov we get a kid (Forrest) and it frees up Niles though i guess it requires a Heart and a Master Seal. 

I don´t quite understand why you recommend using Leo while screwing Azura!Ophelia for no reason other than an ethereal deployment slot problem. Neither take physical damage well, both laugh at magic damage but Elise!Ophelia just hits harder. And she doesn´t need a pair-up partner to do so. You get a better unit and save a deployment slot in the process. And it´s not like you have a good reason not to use Elise or Odin – the former being a splendid unit on her own and the latter being one of the few magic damage dealers until Leo even joins.

Now with that out the way, i think i need to preface the following by saying that it is not meant to downplay or discredit your efforts of creating a guide. 

15 hours ago, tacticsfan999 said:

But the walkthrough is for a beginner so I'm trying to put myself in their mindset. What would they find hard? Ninjas to them are probably scary. The room filled with archers is probably bewildering.

Spoiler

A beginner who comfortably plays through chapter 1-8 on Hard and/or has completed the game at least once already. Why would they be scared of Ninjas? If they are scared of Ninjas in chapter 12 then chapter 17 will have them stain themselves and chapter 25 will have them looking for the next bridge to jump off. Why would a room full of Archers, 2 range locked units, be bewildering (not sure which room you mean here – chapter 11?). They already went through all of that. 

You are assuming someone who already has experienced the game – none of this will be new to them. Ninjas, etc won´t just suddenly transform into a jump-scare. According to the fe.wiki.org there´s also no stat difference between Hard/Lunatic so units that worked on Hard would likely also work on Lunatic too.

The problem people have with Lunatic Conquest, from what I have seen is by far not the early game, but the late game. Chapter 17, 19, 20 (arguably these being on the brink to lategame), 23, 25, 26, Endgame. These are the maps people may need help with since these are maps that may hold actual surprises. Furthermore what you need to be able to do in lategame dictates what you have to set up for in earlygame – pairings, reclasses, paralogues etc.

 

Edited September 17, 2020 by Imuabicus

[Johnnie]

Okay, rather than say what I don't like let's discuss resources and supports because Conquest requires resource management and supports are a part of that.

You say to only pair Odin with Azura because to do otherwise wastes a deployment slot on characters you don't want to use, but getting Odin x Azura to S takes longer than Odin x Mozu/Elise/Corrin/Effie. Those 4 potential mates can produce Ophelia after Chapter 12, while Corrin x Jakob can produce Ophelia before chapter 10. Odin x Azura doesn't produce Ophelia until after Chapter 13 at minimum, barring any other Paralogues beforehand.

Conquest has 2 types of supports - Normal and Fast. Normal supports take a minimum of 7 maps to reach S rank and Fast supports take 6 maps. Unlike Awakening, Fast supports are limited and M-F are limited even further. Corrin has the most - Either servant, Gunter, Azura and any Sibling. Other Fast S supports are Elise/Effie x Arthur and Xander/Laslow x Peri. And that's it.

Since Jakob and Corrin likely start Chapter 6 with a C support, that means you only need 5 maps to reach S Rank - Chapters 7, 8, 9, Paralogue 1, Invasion 1 and you've made Kana and Dwyer. As a bonus, it's entirely possible to have Rally Def on both kids and Jakob and still capture Haitaka.

Since Arthur and Effie have a fast support, they also only need 6 maps - Chapters 7, 8, 9, Paralogue 1, Invasion 1 and Kana is enough to make a viable Percy.

Odin and Elise don't have a fast support so they need 7 maps - Chapters 8 and 9, Paralogue 1, Invasion 1, Kana, Dwyer, Percy is 7 if you're bold enough and you have a useable Ophelia.

Silas and Azura could reach S support in Ophelia's Paralogue - Chapter 9, Paralogue 1, Invasion 1, Kana, Dwyer, Percy, Ophelia

And for completion sake, Niles and Mozu could make Nina in this time - Paralogue 1, Invasion 1, Kana, Dwyer, Percy, Ophelia, Sophie

Now you're going into Chapter 10 with a shit ton of extra resources and 7 useable, functional children all at the cost of a little extra planning and attention to detail. Oh, and 4 Rally Def units 3 of which can build supports with each other.

And even if you don't feel comfortable attempting Percy's Paralogue - you still have 2 kids and a third made, and Odin x Elise / Silas x Azura at A support and Niles x Mozu at B. Niles, Silas and Elise like what their spouses give them and their kids all turn out well also.

Now, I may be off on my deployment limits. I know for a fact that you can create Corrin's twins, Percy, Ophelia and either Nina or Azura's twins. But it should be possible to follow this to create everyone.

As for capturing Haitaka, have Odin stand next to him and Elise burn a Freeze usage. Effie and Jakob whittle him down and it's almost impossible for Niles to miss.

[Shadow Mir]

6 minutes ago, Johnnie said:

As for capturing Haitaka, have Odin stand next to him and Elise burn a Freeze usage. Effie and Jakob whittle him down and it's almost impossible for Niles to miss.

While we're talking about it, does Heartseeker affect status staff accuracy? Because my main gripe with status staves is that in general, the stuff that's worth hitting with them tends to have high chances of avoiding them.

[starburst]

7 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

Ninjas, etc won´t just suddenly transform into a jump-scare. According to the fe.wiki.org there´s also no stat difference between Hard/Lunatic so units that worked on Hard would likely also work on Lunatic too.

I think that there are no enemy stat differences between Hard and Lunatic, but enemies have better (capped?) weapon proficiency levels, which affects damage. Aside from a deadlier, more varied skill set, of course.
Hard teaches one almost everything about Lunatic, while Normal is just a different game.

 

7 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

The problem people have with Lunatic Conquest, from what I have seen is by far not the early game, but the late game. Chapter 17, 19, 20 (arguably these being on the brink to lategame), 23, 25, 26, Endgame. These are the maps people may need help with since these are maps that may hold actual surprises.

While I have played Conquest on Hard way more times than on Lunatic, I think that the maps which actually play differently are Chapters 12, 21, 23 and, specially and radically, Endgame.
 

Spoiler

Chapter 17 on Lunatic introduces Inevitable End, but only on some units. Does it not? Or do all of them have it?
I hold the lines 2-3 phases with ten units, therefore normal parties should have even less problems.
I cannot remember the actual differences. Maybe I just play it exactly the same.

Do Chapters 19 and 20 not play exactly the same on both difficulties? Do the winds have different directions or do the foxes have a different “statue” ability? I cannot remember.

Chapter 25 has Inevitable End too, but I am pretty sure that strategies that worked on Hard also work on Lunatic. It plays the same.
(Note that it does play very differently for me because of the turn limit reduction, for reaching Cornflakes in under twenty turns with 9-10 units is indeed more complicate. But people do not play with such restrictions.)

Chapter 26 is similar to 25 in this regard: It is more difficult and the enemy has now infinite hexes, but it plays the same. One already had to use modular arithmetic to deal with Iago on Hard; on Lunatic this is a necessity instead of a recommendation.

Chapter 12 changes the Dragon Vein position; 21 has more Stone Borns (it may only affect me and smaller parties, and not everyone), and 23 blocks the eastern-most roof access. These changes demand different approaches in my opinion.

Lunatic Endgame is a completely different puzzle. It has nothing to do with its Hard counterpart.

Johnnie, mate, you posted while I was writing this messages and adding quotes while editing seems impossible on mobile.

I like your suggestion about taking Supports into account, since early children are game changers.
Now, I kill Jakob on sight, but Sophie can always join right after Ch 11, while Ophelia and Nina can always join right after Ch 12. This already is a worst-case scenario. Just like Effie can always bear Percy right after Ch 10. (Oh!, and his map is trickier than it is difficult. I seldom recruit him, but when I do, I play the map immediately, using only ten units.)
As soon as one “unlocks” one child, a chain reaction starts, and it can drastically change the game.

Haitaka can always be captured. No worries. It is perfectly reproducible.

Edited September 17, 2020 by starburst

[Johnnie]

33 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

While we're talking about it, does Heartseeker affect status staff accuracy? Because my main gripe with status staves is that in general, the stuff that's worth hitting with them tends to have high chances of avoiding them.

I'm reasonably sure it does and I'll be testing it in a day or two. Even if not, Heartseeker effectively negates the throne bonus so that's reason enough to deploy Odin. 

And since I forgot to mention the deployment issue, Chapter 7 and 8 effectively have forced deployment unless you do the Paralogue immediately. Saving Paralogue 1 for after Chapter 9 means you don't have to limit your deployment until then and it gives you an extra map to have Haitaka released before Chapter 10. Doing Paralogue 1 before then is effectively useless unless you want to train Mozu. You could use Chapter 8 to build Mozu and Niles, but you're hampering the supports of 2 other pairs in the process.

I say Mozu x Niles and Silas x Azura because those are the best pairs for the husband. Darting Blow is excellent on Silas and Niles' strength issues make Quick Draw practically a requirement. Nina likes Quick Draw, Sophie likes Darting Blow and any flier with Elbow Room is a winner.

Edited September 17, 2020 by Johnnie

[tacticsfan999]

16 minutes ago, Johnnie said:

Okay, rather than say what I don't like let's discuss resources and supports because Conquest requires resource management and supports are a part of that.

You say to only pair Odin with Azura because to do otherwise wastes a deployment slot on characters you don't want to use, but getting Odin x Azura to S takes longer than Odin x Mozu/Elise/Corrin/Effie. Those 4 potential mates can produce Ophelia after Chapter 12, while Corrin x Jakob can produce Ophelia before chapter 10. Odin x Azura doesn't produce Ophelia until after Chapter 13 at minimum, barring any other Paralogues beforehand.

Conquest has 2 types of supports - Normal and Fast. Normal supports take a minimum of 7 maps to reach S rank and Fast supports take 6 maps. Unlike Awakening, Fast supports are limited and M-F are limited even further. Corrin has the most - Either servant, Gunter, Azura and any Sibling. Other Fast S supports are Elise/Effie x Arthur and Xander/Laslow x Peri. And that's it.

Since Jakob and Corrin likely start Chapter 6 with a C support, that means you only need 5 maps to reach S Rank - Chapters 7, 8, 9, Paralogue 1, Invasion 1 and you've made Kana and Dwyer. As a bonus, it's entirely possible to have Rally Def on both kids and Jakob and still capture Haitaka.

Since Arthur and Effie have a fast support, they also only need 6 maps - Chapters 7, 8, 9, Paralogue 1, Invasion 1 and Kana is enough to make a viable Percy.

Odin and Elise don't have a fast support so they need 7 maps - Chapters 8 and 9, Paralogue 1, Invasion 1, Kana, Dwyer, Percy is 7 if you're bold enough and you have a useable Ophelia.

Silas and Azura could reach S support in Ophelia's Paralogue - Chapter 9, Paralogue 1, Invasion 1, Kana, Dwyer, Percy, Ophelia

And for completion sake, Niles and Mozu could make Nina in this time - Paralogue 1, Invasion 1, Kana, Dwyer, Percy, Ophelia, Sophie

Now you're going into Chapter 10 with a shit ton of extra resources and 7 useable, functional children all at the cost of a little extra planning and attention to detail. Oh, and 4 Rally Def units 3 of which can build supports with each other.

And even if you don't feel comfortable attempting Percy's Paralogue - you still have 2 kids and a third made, and Odin x Elise / Silas x Azura at A support and Niles x Mozu at B. Niles, Silas and Elise like what their spouses give them and their kids all turn out well also.

Now, I may be off on my deployment limits. I know for a fact that you can create Corrin's twins, Percy, Ophelia and either Nina or Azura's twins. But it should be possible to follow this to create everyone.

As for capturing Haitaka, have Odin stand next to him and Elise burn a Freeze usage. Effie and Jakob whittle him down and it's almost impossible for Niles to miss.

My reply is sort of multifaceted. I'd first just explain that the pairings I chose aren't optimal. I barely understood pairings when I made the walkthrough so they were mostly based one me stitching together ideas from other sources. I also didn't want there to be difficult or tedious supports to build because it would then make the game harder for the beginner to manage them all. Strangely it was just a couple days ago that I realized that it was possible to get every paralogue possible before chapter 10, before chapter 10.

This lead me to wonder if such fast progress was worth it. The XP benefits, for instance, partially wear off later on in the game. Some units recruited early on won't be as good (assuming they would be used). However the boosts for that part of the game would be huge, and weapon rank benefits would be longer lasting. And there's items, and sometimes gold.

Having so many rally defense users doesn't sound appealing to me although it does paint a picture of the potency of the strategy. I think the value of each additional rally defense user drops off, with 1 being an excellent idea, 2 being a great idea, 3 being a good idea, and 4 being an okay idea. That's purely my judgment though. And, incidentally, my walkthrough lead to probably 4 rally defense users give or take 1.

I was able to find a way to get every paralogue before chapter 17 with ease, and every paralogue available at the time before chapter 10 too. Most of the pairings were great or decent but it's okay to have bad ones (for the child) assuming that child isn't worth using. I'm still trying to figure out what right balance is here.

Effie/Arthur is a pair that I'm fascinated by for strategic reasons. I believe in Effie/Arthur now, but I didn't when I made the walkthrough. I think I misunderstood how paralogues could be spammed for different effects, such as speeding up S ranks and unlocking even more paralogues. I was always under the impression that the player should only unlock maybe half the paralogues. Anyway, I've been thinking harder about pairs and paralogues lately.

7 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

Chapter 4. Did not know you could go north fast enough. My bad.

Chapter 9. That was a misunderstanding on my part then, sorry.

Chapter 10. I messed up thinking that the eastern bridge had Seal Defence Spear Fighters, but they are not, sorry. Maybe mention that Takumi must be killed before turn 7 as on the start of 7 (I think?) he automatically activates DV?

In you interlude between chapter 8-9 you write: “We've got a lot of gold now so it's time to upgrade our enemies and you can even get a few tonics if you like.” I assume the bolded is a typo?

Oh yeah, Adventurer Nyx would probably make a better partner for Leo than Niles. At S-Rank we look at +3Mag/+6Spd/+2Res/+1Mov we get a kid (Forrest) and it frees up Niles though i guess it requires a Heart and a Master Seal. 

I don´t quite understand why you recommend using Leo while screwing Azura!Ophelia for no reason other than an ethereal deployment slot problem. Neither take physical damage well, both laugh at magic damage but Elise!Ophelia just hits harder. And she doesn´t need a pair-up partner to do so. You get a better unit and save a deployment slot in the process. And it´s not like you have a good reason not to use Elise or Odin – the former being a splendid unit on her own and the latter being one of the few magic damage dealers until Leo even joins.

Now with that out the way, i think i need to preface the following by saying that it is not meant to downplay or discredit your efforts of creating a guide. 

  Reveal hidden contents

A beginner who comfortably plays through chapter 1-8 on Hard and/or has completed the game at least once already. Why would they be scared of Ninjas? If they are scared of Ninjas in chapter 12 then chapter 17 will have them stain themselves and chapter 25 will have them looking for the next bridge to jump off. Why would a room full of Archers, 2 range locked units, be bewildering (not sure which room you mean here – chapter 11?). They already went through all of that. 

You are assuming someone who already has experienced the game – none of this will be new to them. Ninjas, etc won´t just suddenly transform into a jump-scare. According to the fe.wiki.org there´s also no stat difference between Hard/Lunatic so units that worked on Hard would likely also work on Lunatic too.

The problem people have with Lunatic Conquest, from what I have seen is by far not the early game, but the late game. Chapter 17, 19, 20 (arguably these being on the brink to lategame), 23, 25, 26, Endgame. These are the maps people may need help with since these are maps that may hold actual surprises. Furthermore what you need to be able to do in lategame dictates what you have to set up for in earlygame – pairings, reclasses, paralogues etc.

 

Yeah I think killing Takumi by turn 6 is the goal. Yes that bold phrase is a typo, thanks for pointing it out. I'll fix it. 

Okay yeah, good point about Leo/Nyx vs. Leo/Niles. I definitely missed that. I think it's worth it then. We can have Elise/Odin instead of Nyx/Odin, which should be no problem. A heart seal is required (a master seal would be required for Nyx and Niles alike) but that might be okay for +3 mag and a new paralogue. 

I'm not that knowledgeable about Ophelia so let me know what you think, but she doesn't seem as good as Leo to me. Elise!Ophelia has way less bulk than Leo as a dark knight, and Leo's offense is slightly better magic and slightly worse speed. Overall, Leo's better bulk and similar offense make him seem like the better unit.

Of course. The comments are appreciated.

 

[Shadow Mir]

Was there any reason given for Xander/Selena? Because compared to Xander/Charlotte, I seldom see the former suggested.

[Johnnie]

You're definitely not going to use every unit. And yes, 4 Rally Def units is a bit much. But you could use every unit easily, and they would be good enough that you could pick and choose throughout the mid game depending on what the map requires. More importantly is the extra money and equipment, especially from Nina, Percy and Ophelia.

As for Ophelia, she doesn't want to go Dark Knight. She wants to be a Sorcerer. Give her Calamity Gate and Nosferatu, and Vantage if possible. It's a bit of a meme but it's probably her best build.

[starburst]

35 minutes ago, tacticsfan999 said:

I'm not that knowledgeable about Ophelia so let me know what you think, but she doesn't seem as good as Leo to me.

Of course she is not as good, she is always better! 😜

No, seriously, she is. She is the most broken Player Phase unit in the game. Her growths, personal skill, class tree and skill set are ridiculously overpowered.
But it does not really matter what she can do, but what you want or need to do.

I play this game as a puzzle, based on roles for characters. I pick two “tanks”, one healer and seven Player Phase units. I want my party to march forward and clear screens. Therefore, a unit with higher damage output (like Ophelia) is preferred over a unit like Leo. It does not matter to me how many more hits Leo can take, I need a unit who can one-hit or one-round everyone on the screen. I want to clear screens on Player Phase and advance, not to hold enemies.

Berserker Effie and Sniper Effie do wonders. And so do Sniper/ Mechanist Mozu, Berserker Azura, whatever Nina, whatever Velouria, Sorceress Ophelia, Master Ninja/ Mechanist Kaze, Adventurer Ana… It will always depend on what you want to do.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

@starburst 

Spoiler

Yeah, all enemies will have capped Weapon Ranks, more skills and apparently updated inventories though this one I can´t confirm from memory.

Regarding maps: It´s less a “these maps are different” and more a “scoop” through the maps people complain the most about. Inevitable end is introduced in chapter 25 I think – at the very least not on chapter 17, no. I suppose it´s less holds surprises and more “are generally considered more annoying”.

Take this for enemy stats and skills: https://imgur.com/a/6T52mEK (not mine & found on gamefaqs)

On the topic of Rallies, while it isn´t within the scope of your guide there is indeed Rallyman, coming in hot with 4 rallies (Str, Spd, Res, Def). Also: https://www.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/4qmb42/fanart_rallyman/

In regard to Ophelia/Odin take a peek perhaps at this YT channel https://www.youtube.com/user/Zoran501/videos – @Zoran is also a user on this board. Keep in mind this whole thing about Ophelia/Odin is in large parts due to their class pool Dark Mage/Samurai allowing them to use Vantage/Nosferatu.

As for your Ophelia v Leo concerns:

I see little reason to have any unit ever be a Dark Knight except for Lv. 14-15 to grab Seal Magic and Lifetaker – neither of which strike me as particularly great skills, though the latter may be of use should you intend to do some semi-self-reliant damage dealers. That may be more a thing of the big book of skill buying though.

As for Leos bulk against Ophelias bulk – is it really that relevant? What would you have them tank? For physical damage, abiding by your guide, we have Xander, WL Camilla, WL Beruka, WL Percy (not explicitly mentioned) and for magic damage MN Kaze, Strategist Elise. All of these tank the respective damage type just better than Leo and I would imagine some (Xander, Elise) would also out damage Leo. I feel it should be mentioned, in Conquest you´ll find a lot of enemy formations that are somewhat segregated by damage – as in mages stand with mages and physical units stand with physical units – with the hybrid classes (mostly Basara and Oni Chieftains?) skulking about every now and then.

As for damage, where and how does Leo out damage Ophelia? No iteration of Leo will outclass Ophelias Mag and she has a higher Mag cap as well as having up to 3 more Spd, making reaching thresholds easier and so potentially doubling the damage. I guess Leos PS is okay, but what do we need extra damage against an already injured enemy for? Not that Bibliophile is great, but it together with Sorcerer innate bonuses gives at least 20 Crit on the condition of having 3 tomes in inventory – her personal tome Missiletainn, Calamity Gate, Horse Spirit, Mjölnir, Lightning, Nosferatu + any variation of the standard tomes. Granted this is all very min-max-y.

Though with your plans regarding Paladin Jacob, WR/MK Corrin and WL Camilla, Adventurer Nyx etc. you may find yourself out of Heart Seals to get Vantage on Odin/Ophelia.

Oh yeah, after looking into it I also retract my statement about Niles 100% Haitaka. I tested this with a base level Niles and a base level Odin. Lv. 5 Odin can take 1 attack of Haitaka so that´s a safe Heartseeker – the iffy part is the Freeze staff because Heartseeker doesn´t target Staff Hitrates and Elsie had ~53% chance to freeze Haitaka (Jakob had ~58%). With so much as a Skill and a Luck Tonic you can get the Hitrate with a Bronze Bow up to 100% at which point you only need a PU to deal the necessary damage and Haitaka also doesn´t have a crit chance on Niles. The Iron Bow deals some damage but sits at ~96% Hit and Haitaka has like 2% Crit.

Edited September 18, 2020 by Imuabicus

[tacticsfan999]

22 hours ago, starburst said:

Of course she is not as good, she is always better! 😜

No, seriously, she is. She is the most broken Player Phase unit in the game. Her growths, personal skill, class tree and skill set are ridiculously overpowered.
But it does not really matter what she can do, but what you want or need to do.

I play this game as a puzzle, based on roles for characters. I pick two “tanks”, one healer and seven Player Phase units. I want my party to march forward and clear screens. Therefore, a unit with higher damage output (like Ophelia) is preferred over a unit like Leo. It does not matter to me how many more hits Leo can take, I need a unit who can one-hit or one-round everyone on the screen. I want to clear screens on Player Phase and advance, not to hold enemies.

Berserker Effie and Sniper Effie do wonders. And so do Sniper/ Mechanist Mozu, Berserker Azura, whatever Nina, whatever Velouria, Sorceress Ophelia, Master Ninja/ Mechanist Kaze, Adventurer Ana… It will always depend on what you want to do.

That's interesting. I think I get the idea. The best defense is a good offense. If there aren't any enemies leftover on player phase then no allied units can die, which really simplifies the battle. A unit with mediocre offense and defense could be a bad player phase unit because if they miss a kill then the last enemy won't go for them, but for the most fragile unit and kill it. So their own bulk didn't even matter. I'll have to think about these things more. Its an expansive topic.

13 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

@starburst 

  Reveal hidden contents

Yeah, all enemies will have capped Weapon Ranks, more skills and apparently updated inventories though this one I can´t confirm from memory.

Regarding maps: It´s less a “these maps are different” and more a “scoop” through the maps people complain the most about. Inevitable end is introduced in chapter 25 I think – at the very least not on chapter 17, no. I suppose it´s less holds surprises and more “are generally considered more annoying”.

Take this for enemy stats and skills: https://imgur.com/a/6T52mEK (not mine & found on gamefaqs)

On the topic of Rallies, while it isn´t within the scope of your guide there is indeed Rallyman, coming in hot with 4 rallies (Str, Spd, Res, Def). Also: https://www.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/4qmb42/fanart_rallyman/

In regard to Ophelia/Odin take a peek perhaps at this YT channel https://www.youtube.com/user/Zoran501/videos – @Zoran is also a user on this board. Keep in mind this whole thing about Ophelia/Odin is in large parts due to their class pool Dark Mage/Samurai allowing them to use Vantage/Nosferatu.

As for your Ophelia v Leo concerns:

I see little reason to have any unit ever be a Dark Knight except for Lv. 14-15 to grab Seal Magic and Lifetaker – neither of which strike me as particularly great skills, though the latter may be of use should you intend to do some semi-self-reliant damage dealers. That may be more a thing of the big book of skill buying though.

As for Leos bulk against Ophelias bulk – is it really that relevant? What would you have them tank? For physical damage, abiding by your guide, we have Xander, WL Camilla, WL Beruka, WL Percy (not explicitly mentioned) and for magic damage MN Kaze, Strategist Elise. All of these tank the respective damage type just better than Leo and I would imagine some (Xander, Elise) would also out damage Leo. I feel it should be mentioned, in Conquest you´ll find a lot of enemy formations that are somewhat segregated by damage – as in mages stand with mages and physical units stand with physical units – with the hybrid classes (mostly Basara and Oni Chieftains?) skulking about every now and then.

As for damage, where and how does Leo out damage Ophelia? No iteration of Leo will outclass Ophelias Mag and she has a higher Mag cap as well as having up to 3 more Spd, making reaching thresholds easier and so potentially doubling the damage. I guess Leos PS is okay, but what do we need extra damage against an already injured enemy for? Not that Bibliophile is great, but it together with Sorcerer innate bonuses gives at least 20 Crit on the condition of having 3 tomes in inventory – her personal tome Missiletainn, Calamity Gate, Horse Spirit, Mjölnir, Lightning, Nosferatu + any variation of the standard tomes. Granted this is all very min-max-y.

Though with your plans regarding Paladin Jacob, WR/MK Corrin and WL Camilla, Adventurer Nyx etc. you may find yourself out of Heart Seals to get Vantage on Odin/Ophelia.

Oh yeah, after looking into it I also retract my statement about Niles 100% Haitaka. I tested this with a base level Niles and a base level Odin. Lv. 5 Odin can take 1 attack of Haitaka so that´s a safe Heartseeker – the iffy part is the Freeze staff because Heartseeker doesn´t target Staff Hitrates and Elsie had ~53% chance to freeze Haitaka (Jakob had ~58%). With so much as a Skill and a Luck Tonic you can get the Hitrate with a Bronze Bow up to 100% at which point you only need a PU to deal the necessary damage and Haitaka also doesn´t have a crit chance on Niles. The Iron Bow deals some damage but sits at ~96% Hit and Haitaka has like 2% Crit.

I thought about it for a while. This assessment doesn't apply to what I said in the walkthrough. It's independent of all that. If I missed anything major then let me know because sometimes I miss the elephant in the room, but still this should be some useful info.

Leo can also be a sorcerer with vantage in a natural way (using 1 paralogues) by chapter 18. It takes the same number of heart seals. If you check his stats you'll see that his magic is better accounting for effective levels but I don't think it matters. For all intents and purposes, they have the same basic magic output. Leo seems to have an especially, unusually good pair in Nyx. His bulk is significantly better: +6.5 def avg at cap, +5.5 res avg at cap, and this is assuming a lvl.20 promotion for Ophelia.

Ophelia has the advantage of getting vantage sooner. After looking through it, it seems that adventurer Niles might be a good pair for Ophelia. He can give lots of magic, speed, and +1 move. Nyx gives Leo +2 magic more, while Niles gives Ophelia +2 resistance more. However, Ophelia can build supports faster. Overall Leo is going to hit a little harder, but Ophelia will double more often (~ 4 more speed given lvl.20 promotion).

Grouping everything together, it looks like Ophelia's major advantages are getting vantage quicker and having more speed throughout the game. Leo's major advantage is having way more bulk for playing a tanking role and hitting a little harder. Also lvl.20 promotion for Ophelia would take a while, so earlier promotion is probably better (but also means the stat gap between her speed and Leo's speed gets a little smaller).

On the topic of bulk:

Bulk translates into better offense. The smaller a unit's death zone, the more effective mobility they have. The more effective mobility they have the more attack targets they can pick and choose between thus improving team offense. And that's ignoring the ability to tank.

Edited September 18, 2020 by tacticsfan999

[Johnnie]

I know I'm being nit-picky, but why are we relegating Niles to a support role? He kills flyers and captures bosses and useful units. And if we are using him for support, why are we pairing him up with a child he didn't father? If we're deciding to use Ophelia, and if we're pairing an Adventurer with her, then why not Forrest who can reach S rank and give better bonuses? With Nyx as a mother he will naturally have Adventurer in his class set. Obviously, you do you but Nyx!Forrest offers 2 Mag, 6 Spd and 2 Res at S rank as an Adventurer.

As for seals, my first 2 Heart Seals (shop and Chapter 9) go to Arthur and Jakob/Corrin/Mozu/Azura/Nobody depending on plan. Nyx is promoted at Chapter 10 to Dark Knight to help Odin handle the archers on the left and then benched and sealed for Leo. Kids replace parents only if they are immediately better (Percy) or possibly have unique abilities (Dwyer).

[starburst]

4 hours ago, tacticsfan999 said:

Bulk translates into better offense. The smaller a unit's death zone, the more effective mobility they have. The more effective mobility they have the more attack targets they can pick and choose between thus improving team offense. And that's ignoring the ability to tank.

It makes sense. But it is a style.

The way I play it, eight out of the ten units do nothing active during 99 % of Enemy Phases in the game. They may provide auras and bonuses, but they see no action. Conversely, they charge and (try to) clear zones on every Player Phase.
Not to mention that the defensive thresholds are never that high in Conquest. That is why a +Magic Nohr Noble Cornflakes can be your main “tank” during the entire campaign. Or why numerous, diverse cavalry units can tank foxes indefinitely on Chapter 19. It is easy to meet the thresholds.

Bulk for me is only relevant to calculate the one hit (if any) between one-rounding enemies. Player-Phase units at 1 HP can be just as effective as at 45 HP. The key is to kill the enemies, not to hold them. This is why weapons like the Sacrificial Knife or the Berserker Axe are so good; the HP loss is irrelevant for Player-Phase units if there are no enemies left.
I would gladly take +5 Speed, +4 Attack or +30 % Avoid on a Sorcerer instead of Vantage. It hardly ever activates on Ophelia during the whole campaign. And she always joins around Chapter 12 and ends at A proficiency in tomes (this is, she sees a lot of action.)

Again, it depends on what you want to do.

[Eltosian Kadath]

5 hours ago, tacticsfan999 said:

 

Grouping everything together, it looks like Ophelia's major advantages are getting vantage quicker and having more speed throughout the game. Leo's major advantage is having way more bulk for playing a tanking role and hitting a little harder. Also lvl.20 promotion for Ophelia would take a while, so earlier promotion is probably better (but also means the stat gap between her speed and Leo's speed gets a little smaller).

Two things I will note here, first off while Ophelia and Leo tend to have comparable magic stats, Ophelia tends to have a higher cap which she doesn't hit (unlike Leo), making her one of the better long term candidates for the 3 Spirit Dust (or at least 2 of them) that you get throughout the game, which lets her hit harder in the more difficult parts of the late game with the same investment; second I tend to find that the second or third chapter I can use Leo (including his join chapter) is where the units that are going to promote at level 20, do so on Lunatic (and Ophelia is usually one of the earlier units to promote at 20 if I use her due to her high offensive utility leading to high xp kills), so its not a very long wait before she catches up with him.

 

4 hours ago, tacticsfan999 said:

 

Bulk translates into better offense. The smaller a unit's death zone, the more effective mobility they have. The more effective mobility they have the more attack targets they can pick and choose between thus improving team offense. And that's ignoring the ability to tank.

While it does, fixing speed issues often costs more team mobility and offensive potential than fixing bulk issues does, which gives Ophelia more offensive potential than Leo.

Lets start by discussing how having units paired at the start of the turn reduces mobility. First it cost you actions, which beyond the obvious value in offensive potential, can also be used to extend the mobility of your team by letting a unit trade their action to let another unit use that first unit's full range, by letting them pairup, then moving the full range, switching to the first unit, and even transferring over to get an attack stance as well. On top of that it leaves you more open to using shelter to either open up space, or as a pseudo-dance by sheltering someone that has already acted, and then having another unit transfer said unit over, and immediately switching to them to let that unit act again (of particular note this can be used to get multiple true dances in a turn by doing this to Azura, and if you have access to another shelter you can transfer whomever transferred Azura over to get that second dance, thus isolating her to let another unit shelter Azura again to repeat the process...). Plus if you end up with actions left over they can be used to transfer and separate units out to maintain this level of offensive mobility. Now if a unit needs a pairup to reach a doubling threshold that increases their offensive potential, but if a unit can reach the same threshold without pairup, the attack stance (not to mention the extra action that if nothing else can trigger a stronger unit's attack stance) almost always gets you more offensive output.

There are a lot of ways to fix bulk using skills. If you manage to get Corrin and Ophelia to C rank support on her paralogue you can increase her effective bulk by 10 by the next chapter with your positioning (technically 11, but it is rarely worth it for that +1) fairly easily (-2 damage from activating Corrin's supportive be using Corrin's attack stance [seeing as Corrin is one of the better front-liners that tends to be easy to setup], another -3 damage from Lily's Poise [ a bit harder positioning to setup, but Elise having healing utility, and both girls having pure 1-2 range after promotion keeps it from being too difficult to pull off without wasting an action on the setup, besides she might be close to the front lines anyway if you used Lily's poise to boost the bulk of whomever drew the enemies in, and even if it does cost her action keeping a larger separated force gives you more actions to work with], -2 damage from Gentilholme [the 2 range on it makes it easy to position for it if you need it],  and +3 def/res from Horse Spirit as well; there is also a potential -1 damage from Camilla's Rose's Thorn, but setting up 3 range 1 skills is pushing thing a fair bit), and this potential extra bulk increases as the game goes on, as you can add +4 from rallies in the midgame, -2 damage from inspiration in the late, and another pair of -2 damages from one of Azura's dancer skills, and Izana's personal (although those last two are usually more trouble to setup than they are worth). Now you can increase speed a little bit as well, +3 from horse spirit, +3 from a dance (although having to use your dance as a buff is a massive restriction in mobility), and a +4 from rally speed in the mid or late game (you do have to go a little out of your way to get it midgame, but not too much as Selena can heart seal into it, Azura can as well, but more importantly pass it through partner/friend seal, and Shigure has it at base, in the lategame rally bot makes it easy to access though), as you can see there are some options, but you can't push it as far as you can with bulk. Also of note is that surviving a single counter attack, even with an attack stance usually isn't a massive threshold to cross with how many options available for increasing effective bulk (even tonics give an advantage to effective bulk, by having HP tonic as a second means of pushing it further than the usual +2 from other relevant tonics, and that additional +5 goes a long way). Additionally if you can get a strong enough single attack plus attack stance to kill it before the enemy counter (made easier with brave weapons, like the Lightning tome that Ophelia can use at base and gets in her paralogue) than bulk doesn't matter at all (as for accuracy to ensure survival, attack stance at minimum give +10, and potentially more with supports, Corrin's supportive can give another +10, and the heartseeker she has at base can effective increase that by 20 if need be as well). As one final note the +10 crit from Ophelia's personal become more relevant the more attack stances she is involved in (pushed even further if you have her use the Lightning tome on attack stance to roll the dice twice), whereas Leo's personal often ends up being wasted overkill thanks to the requirement that the enemy be injured (there is some potential synergy with the Maligknight's area damage skill, but it is cumbersome to use at best). Overall a 6 bulk deficit is easier to overcome without resorting to pairup than a 4 speed deficit is, and being able to function without a backpack increases offensive output and mobility.

There are time where the defensive power, and stat boosts from pairup are worth the cost in mobility and offense, and there are plenty of units that can dish out more offensive potential thanks to speed offered by a backpack, but a unit that can function without one will give you greater offensive potential, and that is what the Ophelia and Leo comparison is all about.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

15 hours ago, tacticsfan999 said:

Leo can also be a sorcerer with vantage in a natural way (using 1 paralogues) by chapter 18. It takes the same number of heart seals. If you check his stats you'll see that his magic is better accounting for effective levels but I don't think it matters. For all intents and purposes, they have the same basic magic output. Leo seems to have an especially, unusually good pair in Nyx. His bulk is significantly better: +6.5 def avg at cap, +5.5 res avg at cap, and this is assuming a lvl.20 promotion for Ophelia.

Ophelia has the advantage of getting vantage sooner. After looking through it, it seems that adventurer Niles might be a good pair for Ophelia. He can give lots of magic, speed, and +1 move. Nyx gives Leo +2 magic more, while Niles gives Ophelia +2 resistance more. However, Ophelia can build supports faster. Overall Leo is going to hit a little harder, but Ophelia will double more often (~ 4 more speed given lvl.20 promotion).

Yes, but the time it takes Leo to get A rank with Odin to then reclass to Swordmaster etc is also time we probably don´t have him build support with Nyx – hence hampering his damage. If we class change Odin and have him get Vantage then it only takes one HS – Ophelia can just inherit Vantage. Meanwhile Leo needs to reclass twice (1x FS, 1x HS) to get into SM and then into Sorceror – which may mean we have him running around as a Dark Knight for some time (which, as mentioned, I am not a fan of). Not that thats much of an argument against it, tbf.

I see no reason to use Niles with Ophelia. For one they don´t support so Niles would only give Adventurer PU bonuses. Secondly while I am no fan of his combat Niles makes for a competent unit on his own. Furthermore, with Leo x Nyx we get yet another neat kid – Forrest, who can S-Rank with Ophelia. Would we use Nyx!Forrest as Ophelias backpack he would give (as a Sorcerer) at max +7Mag/+4Spd/+3Res. With such a backpack it should not take much to get Ophelia to doubling thresholds on practically every enemy in the game barring PU enemies - at the very least with less effort than Leo. Keep in mind with such a Forrest we still have the Strategist/Adventurer route open should healing be required - my main goal with picking Sorceror Forrest as an example was to maximize potential damage output.

Edited September 19, 2020 by Imuabicus

[Johnnie]

Can you even do Lunatic with constant pair up? I know it's a challenge in Hard and I generally prefer attack stance, though it depends on circumstances.

[samthedigital]

On 9/19/2020 at 11:58 AM, Johnnie said:

Can you even do Lunatic with constant pair up? I know it's a challenge in Hard and I generally prefer attack stance, though it depends on circumstances.

For the most part you can, yeah. There are a lot of scenarios where guard stance is the best option simply because it gives units the ability to clear multiple enemies on enemy phase instead of using a predominantly player phase strategy. I am not sure if only using guard stance would work, but it's certainly the most efficient option at least as often as not.

Edited September 21, 2020 by samthedigital

[Eltosian Kadath]

 

On 9/19/2020 at 8:58 AM, Johnnie said:

Can you even do Lunatic with constant pair up? I know it's a challenge in Hard and I generally prefer attack stance, though it depends on circumstances.

I am getting a little curious myself. I suspect it can be done, but probably not with the 10 units no prepromoted royals restriction I used when I completed Conquest Lunatic without Guard Stance on enemy phase. You simply wouldn't get enough actions, and the sorta offensive benchmarks you would need to avoid being overwhelmed would probably be too high to avoid using Camilla.

Perhaps I will give it a try someday...

 

[Johnnie]

Most people don't limit themselves by refusing to use the Royals. Still not sure how well it would work.

[starburst]

On 9/18/2020 at 6:52 AM, Imuabicus said:

Regarding maps: It´s less a “these maps are different” and more a “scoop” through the maps people complain the most about. Inevitable end is introduced in chapter 25 I think – at the very least not on chapter 17, no. I suppose it´s less holds surprises and more “are generally considered more annoying”.

Now I get your comment about those maps. I thought that you were talking about the ones whose game play changed from Hard to Lunatic.
And you are right about Inevitable End; what we get on Lunatic Chapter 17 is Master Ninjas with Poison Strike plus Grizzly Wound. My bad.

 

On 9/21/2020 at 8:21 PM, Johnnie said:

Most people don't limit themselves by refusing to use the Royals. Still not sure how well it would work.

You are welcome to join the very select club, mate. Applications are open for a limited time only. 😜

[Johnnie]

No thank you. I don't like low-manning, and while I'm not a fan of the over-powered Royals I do find them to be a nice safety net. And my current run requires me to make their babies.

[Eltosian Kadath]

On 9/21/2020 at 4:21 PM, Johnnie said:

Most people don't limit themselves by refusing to use the Royals. Still not sure how well it would work.

That was more an indication of how much more restrictive I expect entirely Guard Stance run will look like compared to the (effectively) Attack stance only run I did.

Part of the fun of Conquest is how flexible it is to how you want to play, making for a satisfying experience over numerous differing restrictions to the mechanics of the game.

Edit: That being said if/when I get around to trying this I think I will give it the benefit of the doubt, and try for the 10 unit, no prepromoted Royal, and see how far that takes me. I might end up being surprised by the result (and 10 is the perfect number for the all paired formation I remember starburst mentioning for chapter 19...)

Edited September 25, 2020 by Eltosian Kadath
Wanted to add a final comment

[starburst]

21 hours ago, Johnnie said:

No thank you. I don't like low-manning, and while I'm not a fan of the over-powered Royals I do find them to be a nice safety net. And my current run requires me to make their babies.

Just to clarify, while "low-manning" often translates into "pick the strongest and turn them into monsters", this is actually my main complain about Fate's gameplay.

The actual "rules" were 10-units only, no pre-promoted royals, no "backpacks." This last requirement was set precisely to counter the exploitation of pair-up bonuses between units at completely uneven levels. By using less units one will need as many actions as possible, which in turn translates into necessarily having a balanced cast, for everyone must meet offensive thresholds or the party will not be able to advance.

The way I play it, Conquest takes place almost entirely on Player Phase. I pick one healer, two "tanks" and seven Player-Phase units, the party wipes the screen on Player Phase and marches forward to the next section. Most units do nothing during Enemy Phase, it does not exist. How hard do Hans and his General guards hit? I would not know! They are gone before they can ever attack.

I am not trying to convince you, for this may not suit your play style. I only mention this because even though the party is smaller, it works in the complete opposite sense as "low-manning" would suggest. Enemy Phase is relegated to particular sections, and the immense majority of the game takes place on Player Phase.
If anything, it tells you that the offensive and defensive thresholds in Conquest are always lower than you imagined, and that the royals are never necessary.

 

11 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

(and 10 is the perfect number for the all paired formation I remember starburst mentioning for chapter 19...)

Cross formation, mate. It never fails, regardless of the party.