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Who are your least favorite 3H characters?

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Let's begin with the obvious.

Gilbert, for the reasons stated above. He's a pitiful excuse of a father who shrouds his ego with blind faith. Moreover, unless I'm mistaken (which is possible considering it's been a hot minute since I've played), he never repents or apologizes for his actions in his supports with Annette. Instead, it's empty assurances and tenuous-to-the-point-of-fracturing excuses. While I concede that the game deliberately paints him in a negative light, Gilbert does not put forth any meaningful attempt to amend his ways, instead 

Spoiler

unceremoniously bequeathing Annette every letter he "almost" sent to her and her mother.

He's a selfish old man. Annette deserves better.

Lorenz, to me, is Ferdinand without character development. While his inability to follow his heart/dreams/aspirations/etc. are undoubtedly a result of his noble standing, he never grows beyond that. Now, in a medieval-feudal society like Fódlan, this is to be expected, but... ugh. Everything about Lorenz seems to bother me, from his design to his personality to his unveiled classist rhetoric to his overly saccharine, foppish speech. 

I wanted to like Leonie. Unhealthy obsession with Jeralt aside, she initially seemed like she had a determined, headstrong personality. Unfortunately, for me, the former trait is such a glaring flaw that even her hard-working attitude can't nullify it. Peppering her statements with his name every few words is, at the very least, mildly irritating, but she takes it to some pretty egregious extremes at times (her supports with Byleth come to mind). If more about Leonie's past with Jeralt was revealed, with particular emphasis on why she feels so drawn to him, then perhaps she might have more of an impetus for behaving the way she does. 

I find Caspar's Naruto-esque recklessness to be extremely annoying and borderline meme-y. His tenacity is admirable, but that's really where my fondness for him ends. I don't know how Linhardt puts up with him.

 

Edited by Xanaxian

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all this Gilbert hate-wagon reminded me of that line Ashnard says after Bryce leaves in the Final Chapter intro:

"In truth, there is nothing in this world more humorous than a knight."

 

PS: no, i don't hate Gilbert, he's too well written to deserve it
i only hate what he indirectly did to his wife and Annette, not the character as a whole

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1 hour ago, Xanaxian said:

Lorenz, to me, is Ferdinand without character development. While his inability to follow his heart/dreams/aspirations/etc. are undoubtedly a result of his noble standing, he never grows beyond that. Now, in a medieval-feudal society like Fódlan, this is to be expected, but... ugh. Everything about Lorenz seems to bother me, from his design to his personality to his unveiled classist rhetoric to his overly saccharine, foppish speech

I personally felt the opposite about Lorenz and Ferdinand. To be clear, I like both of them, but Lorenz to me was the one who started with a flawed and narrow-minded ideology. He believed in the feudal hierarchy and how he has an obligation to help those he sees as lesser than himself- all in all not a bad person, just misguided in his attempts to do right. But over the course of VW, he comes to realise that his goal of making a positive impact in the world is best served by following his own beliefs, not his father’s or what he was taught. His supports also teach him the inherent value of everybody, regardless of status- his Leonie support is a neat example off the top of my head. He goes from a guy who would be decent if he could just let go of the closed mindset of his upbringing, to a guy who does just that and learns to think and act for himself and his beliefs.
 

Ferdinand, on the other hand, struck me as the guy who always intended to do right by the people-he says himself he wanted to be the one to depose his father and become a better version of him- but always gave off the wrong impression because of poor communication skills. Most of his supports are about the other person coming to realise his inherent goodness and earnest nature- think Dorothea, Mercedes and Hubert (this one is mutual, but my point still stands).

That said Lorenz is definitely the one more likely to leave a sour taste in someone’s mouth- he does come off as the snobbier one of the two. I personally just really like how he grows over VW.

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13 hours ago, Kiran_ said:

Ummm ... this is literally what racism is. In her actual support she says "The people of Duscur..." Not the country, the people. That's exactly how Americans held a hatred for Muslims after 9/11. That hatred is called racism. So yes. She is racist. Look at her later support. "I thought the people cruel and heartless, deserving of the tragedy that befell them." 

It wasn't a joke because of his dark skin. It was the fact she clearly held hatred for a whole people without actually considering things. The entirety of Duscur is an allegory for racism, it's plain as day. People hate blindly. People are racist, blindly. Tragedy does not justify racism, which was the entire point of her supports and her overcoming it. 

So it's not an 'interpretation' that her mindset was racist. She just actually was. Wishing death and genocide upon an entire people is racist. 

 

Except that's literally not what racism is. Ingrid's anger towards the people of Duscur isn't based on race, it's based on the country's actions. That's why she phrases it "people of Duscur". Hell, we don't even know enough about Duscur to call it a race. Dedue's the only person from Duscur we actually see. It could've been home to any number of ethnicities. I mean, if you say "people of America" or "people of England", there's no way you can be talking about one specific race.

Islam is a religion, not a race. That comparison isn't exactly helping your argument.

13 hours ago, Kiran_ said:

The entirety of Duscur is an allegory for racism, it's plain as day.

Where are you getting this? The entirety of Duscur was just a plot device meant to give the Blue Lions a tragic backstory and fuel Dimitri's hatred towards Edelgard. Other than that, Duscur amounts to squat in the actual story. Like I said before, we don't even get to see Duscur or any of its people besides Dedue. Are you sure you're not thinking of Almyra, which I'll admit is a pretty clear Mexican border allegory?

I never said Ingrid's anger towards Duscur was justified or right, I said it was understandable. She's not hating blindly, that's the point. There's a clear reason behind her feelings, and it's not petty racism or "them's not from 'round deez parts", it's a tragedy that caused her personal loss and suffering. A tragedy that, as far as she (and most people in Faerghus) knows, the people of Duscur were directly responsible for. So yes, maybe in her anger and grief she convinced herself that Duscur deserved its punishment. After all, if it wasn't for their actions, her beloved Glenn would still be with her. It makes perfect sense that Duscur made its lasting impresson on her as a nation of heartless killers above all else. I mean, think about how someone who lost a loved one in WW2 would've thought about Germany after the war ended. It's the same exact feeling. And it's perfectly understandable. It isn't right, but it's a far-cry from the blind hatred of racism.

And like you said, she learns to let go of her anger through her supports with Dedue. The truly racist characters (like TWSITD) die, as they should.

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1 hour ago, RainbowMoon said:

I never said Ingrid's anger towards Duscur was justified or right, I said it was understandable. She's not hating blindly, that's the point. There's a clear reason behind her feelings, and it's not petty racism or "them's not from 'round deez parts", it's a tragedy that caused her personal loss and suffering. A tragedy that, as far as she (and most people in Faerghus) knows, the people of Duscur were directly responsible for. So yes, maybe in her anger and grief she convinced herself that Duscur deserved its punishment. After all, if it wasn't for their actions, her beloved Glenn would still be with her. It makes perfect sense that Duscur made its lasting impresson on her as a nation of heartless killers above all else. I mean, think about how someone who lost a loved one in WW2 would've thought about Germany after the war ended. It's the same exact feeling. And it's perfectly understandable. It isn't right, but it's a far-cry from the blind hatred of racism.

Up until that last sentence, I would agree with you. In this case, the problem with the Ingrid support isn't really the reason why she's angry, but the logic she uses. Hating individuals based on what they've done is natural for most people and understandable. Hating unrelated individuals based on the fact that they share characteristics with people who've wronged you is irrational, and shows that you've mis-correlated the crime to ethnic or national attributes, rather than to the individual (or indeed the system that acts as an overarching cause). Ingrid has been fed a false version of events, that the entire people of Duscur are responsible for the tragedy that happened to her and her loved ones, and being lied to, alongside the vulnerability caused by her grief and pain, may mitigate some of her moral responsibility - she certainly isn't unrelatable, at any rate. She's also a good person in general, and eventually finds the wisdom to recognise the racist attitude in herself and begin to work on changing it. But she does allow hatred to guide her into believing what is an unlikely story, that every single Duscurian is responsible for her loss, that they all share the same negative traits that caused it, and she lets that irrational belief impact an unrelated person for the worse, who just so happens to be from the same place (Dedue). Like I said before, that's a pretty clear-cut case of racism.

1 hour ago, RainbowMoon said:

Except that's literally not what racism is. Ingrid's anger towards the people of Duscur isn't based on race, it's based on the country's actions. That's why she phrases it "people of Duscur". Hell, we don't even know enough about Duscur to call it a race. Dedue's the only person from Duscur we actually see. It could've been home to any number of ethnicities. I mean, if you say "people of America" or "people of England", there's no way you can be talking about one specific race.

Islam is a religion, not a race. That comparison isn't exactly helping your argument.

There's still a lot of debate about the boundaries of race, and I'm not going to act like I'm an expert on it. But what is clear is that race refers to a whole conflux of attributes. Ethnicity and physical features are included, but so are nationalities, religions, accents and to an extent cultures.

Like you say, the people of a country are very rarely completely ethnically homogenous. But nonetheless, we use nationality as a way to express generalisations about how people are, and often conflate nationality with all these other, potentially related, characteristics. Ingrid may not call Duscurians a race, but she uses an irrelevant characteristic of Dedue (his Duscur-ness) to inform her judgement and treatment of him, and this is why her early supports with him are racist. It may well be that Dedue is uniquely dark-skinned for a Duscurian, or especially light-skinned. But that doesn't actually affect the substance of her remarks. 

Islamophobia is a legitimate form of racism, just like other forms of racism directed at religious groups. See, for example, the treatment of the Uighur Muslims in China today, the treatment of Christians in feudal Japan, or the treatment of Shi'ite Muslims in Iraq. I won't delve into this further because it's out of the bounds of this thread, but am happy to discuss over DMs if anyone wants to talk about this more.

EDIT to remove reference to European Christians. Christians of all ethnic persuasions were persecuted in feudal Japan, not just Europeans, and Japanese converts to Christianity went through exceptionally trying times.

Edited by haarhaarhaar

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I would personally call the way Ingrid thinks of the people of Duscar to be more of a prejudice on her part than outright racism. 

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4 minutes ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Up until that last sentence, I would agree with you. In this case, the problem with the Ingrid support isn't really the reason why she's angry, but the logic she uses. Hating individuals based on what they've done is natural for most people and understandable. Hating unrelated individuals based on the fact that they share characteristics with people who've wronged you is irrational, and shows that you've mis-correlated the crime to ethnic or national attributes, rather than to the individual (or indeed the system that acts as an overarching cause). Ingrid has been fed a false version of events, that the entire people of Duscur are responsible for the tragedy that happened to her and her loved ones, and being lied to, alongside the vulnerability caused by her grief and pain, may mitigate some of her moral responsibility - she certainly isn't unrelatable, at any rate. She's also a good person in general, and eventually finds the wisdom to recognise the racist attitude in herself and begin to work on changing it. But she does allow hatred to guide her into believing what is an unlikely story, that every single Duscurian is responsible for her loss, that they all share the same negative traits that caused it, and she lets that irrational belief impact an unrelated person for the worse, who just so happens to be from the same place (Dedue). Like I said before, that's a pretty clear-cut case of racism.

This is exactly what makes Ingrid wrong in directing her anger at all of Duscur. But there's no proof that she uses race (by any definition) as part of her reasoning, so racism is out of the question.

25 minutes ago, haarhaarhaar said:

There's still a lot of debate about the boundaries of race, and I'm not going to act like I'm an expert on it. But what is clear is that race refers to a whole conflux of attributes. Ethnicity and physical features are included, but so are nationalities, religions, accents and to an extent cultures.

But not a country's actions. That's because actions are something that can, well, legitimately piss people off without it falling under the umbrella of racism. Ethnicity, cluture, religion etc are all incredibly petty "just because" reasons to hate a country or its people because those are all part of a culture's identity. It's what they are. Actions, like the Tragedy of Duscur, are what the country did. Ingrid's anger towards Duscur and its people is purely over what they did. The attributes that make up race have no influence over her feelings. Where she goes wrong is in blaming the entire country for the Tragedy, which like you said was in part because that's what the majority of Faerghus believed to be true. In her supports with Dedue, she realizes that she was wrong to think this way and corrects herself. A true racist who hates based on identity, not actions, is less likely to own up to their crooked beliefs.

35 minutes ago, Ashe02 said:

I would personally call the way Ingrid thinks of the people of Duscar to be more of a prejudice on her part than outright racism. 

Exactly. Prejudiced would be a fair way to describe her.

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10 hours ago, ruruo said:

Yeah, I totally agree. For all he has done, the reason in the supports for Annette's forgiveness so lackluster and tropey. 

That could be anime training from hell...x'D.  

The worst thing Gilbert did to Dimitri imho, is also to leave the Kingdom. Although, I'm not sure when he left the Kingdom, but I assume it was straight after the assassination
That would mean, the 'important' people around a young Dimitri after his parent's death, would likely be his Uncle and uuuh... Cornelia 💀. It's so hypocritical of Gilbert, who was known for his chivalry. When it mattered the most, he abandoned his country and his future king. Maybe if Gilbert stayed, he could have helped Dimitri sway enough support to prevent the massacre that followed, or at least helped restore Faerghus to a more stable position. 

 

 

 

This exactly. Everyone just abandoned Dimitri, who needed them. You could even say that Rodrigues helping Dimitri was only because of his promise to Lambert. I kind of wish Dimitri was a bit more harsh to Gilbert for that.

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56 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

Actions, like the Tragedy of Duscur, are what the country did. Ingrid's anger towards Duscur and its people is purely over what they did. The attributes that make up race have no influence over her feelings.

I wholeheartedly agree with you on this, mate. Great way to make your point.
 

58 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

Where she goes wrong is in blaming the entire country for the Tragedy, which like you said was in part because that's what the majority of Faerghus believed to be true.

This is where I disagree with you. Ingrid does not go "wrong" in anything, her reaction is perfectly understandable. She might be a better person to us if her feelings and reaction were different, but there is nothing intrinsically "wrong" with them. If anything, they make her more realistic.
 

I have had the opportunity to work with locals in various countries during the past several years. I have never met people who are not prejudiced. Regardless of the region or the economic situation.
These people could be better persons (like we all could), but they are certainly not bad persons. In fact, I have been fortunate to build meaningful relationships abroad with great, admirable persons.
Or maybe I have had bad luck meeting people during the last eighteen years. Either way, you do not have to trust me; ask people who spend months working abroad with locals.
Today's hyper correction of morality is ridiculous. We all project our aspirations, and judge everyone about everything, based on a set of values that most likely differ from theirs. People are who they are.

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1 hour ago, RainbowMoon said:

This is exactly what makes Ingrid wrong in directing her anger at all of Duscur. But there's no proof that she uses race (by any definition) as part of her reasoning, so racism is out of the question.

"A race is a grouping of humans based on shared physical or social qualities into categories generally viewed as distinct by society.The term was first used to refer to speakers of a common language and then to denote national affiliations." (Wikipedia) 

There are far better resources than Wikipedia for exploring and understanding the boundaries of race, but the above sentence is just an example to show that nationality is indeed considered a part of race. Race is a social construct, a group identity normally created and imposed by a dominant subsection of a society or group. In this case, the Duscurian identity falls under the category of race, because the dominant social groups in White Clouds (including the nobles of Faerghus and the monks of the Church of Seiros) categorise the Duscurians without nuance or selectivity, issuing broad-brush statements about the entire people of Duscur, and confusing their ethnic traits and national identity with certain personality types or propensity towards criminal action. 

In Ingrid's specific case, Ingrid bases her scepticism and mistrust of Dedue on one such stereotype about people from Duscur. The fact that there is even a stereotype about 'people from Duscur' is itself a strong indication that they were categorised as one group, or race. Once this is recognised, and the oppression of Duscurians acknowledged, it makes sense that her attitude is racist.

2 hours ago, Ashe02 said:

I would personally call the way Ingrid thinks of the people of Duscar to be more of a prejudice on her part than outright racism. 

12 minutes ago, starburst said:

I have never met people who are not prejudiced.

The terminology surrounding racism is varying and complicated. Prejudice is merely a judgement of a person based on some group they belong to, so definitely describes Ingrid's reaction to Dedue, and @starburst's comment is perfectly legitimate, because prejudice is instinctive - I also can't imagine a person who isn't prejudiced in some way. But prejudice is in fact an umbrella term, a genus, of which racism is a species. The difference between prejudice and racism is the presence of a racial and a structural component. For example, the persecution of South Asians in 1980s Uganda was racist (political and military structures working to oppress and disenfranchise an ethnic minority group), but you or I assuming all professional cyclists use performance-enhancing drugs (just because Lance Armstrong did) is prejudiced - there is neither a socio-structural element between us and professional cyclists, nor is there an explicit racial component to the set containing all professional cyclists. 

In Ingrid's case, there is both a racial element and a structural element to their interaction. She is a Faerghus noble, and he is a Duscurian commoner. She has structural power over him in respect of their societal positions, and the race element comes from the fact that Duscurians live as second-class citizens in Faerghus, hated by the majority of the population, with their lands seized. Dedue himself is only afforded the chance to live thanks to an intervention by someone who is not impacted by these structural or racial concerns. Within this background, Ingrid allows incorrect and faultily-reasoned conceptions of Duscurians to colour her perception of Dedue, and takes an insulting attitude towards him. There is no doubt that this attitude is prejudicial, but the presence of the racial and structural components make it racist too. 

1 hour ago, RainbowMoon said:

But not a country's actions. That's because actions are something that can, well, legitimately piss people off without it falling under the umbrella of racism. Ethnicity, cluture, religion etc are all incredibly petty "just because" reasons to hate a country or its people because those are all part of a culture's identity. It's what they are. Actions, like the Tragedy of Duscur, are what the country did. Ingrid's anger towards Duscur and its people is purely over what they did. The attributes that make up race have no influence over her feelings. Where she goes wrong is in blaming the entire country for the Tragedy, which like you said was in part because that's what the majority of Faerghus believed to be true. In her supports with Dedue, she realizes that she was wrong to think this way and corrects herself. A true racist who hates based on identity, not actions, is less likely to own up to their crooked beliefs.

I think perhaps we think differently about what Ingrid is being accused of. From what we see, Ingrid does not normally judge people based on their nationality, ethnicity, or any other attribute (there is no evidence of this in her supports with Claude or Seteth, or in monastery dialogue). Her discriminatory attitudes are directed solely towards, and are solely evident with respect to, Duscurians. But she is still not a racist in the sense that she lets any conception of race factor into her general decision-making. This is, presumably, the charge you are defending her from, but I'm not actually calling Ingrid a racist in this sense (and I've been careful not to call her a racist at all so far). What I have said and am saying is that her treatment of Dedue specifically (i.e. speech/actions in those supports) is racist. These are two slightly different things. 

There's a lot more to read on race theory and how this is thought to work, but I'm going to try explaining my thought as concisely as I can. Racism is a systemic issue, which means that at its core, it operates on the macro-level, between groups of people, and appears in social structures. Individuals can be prejudiced (as discussed above), but power structures are racist. Expressions of racism appear all the time in individuals and private interactions, but to actually be a racist individual is kinda impossible (because no single individual is a social structure). What happens is that racism 'acts through individuals'. In short, that's where social formations, value settings, and systems negatively inform and supplant our otherwise normal protocols for interaction. This is what has happened to Ingrid, and it is this phenomenon that charges of racism ought to be trying to capture - it is not the human themselves, but things that they say and do through which the larger structure has expressed itself, that are racist. 

You're right to pick out the action/event as the source of Ingrid's pain and the motivation for her behaviour. Like I said before, that's not really what I'm concerned with. My concern is with her method of expressing her feelings - it's her attitude and behaviour that is racist, because she insults a person who isn't even vaguely responsible for her pain, who is only tangentially connected to it through sharing some racial characteristics with the people who are responsible, and she does so by refusing to treat him in terms of his individual merits (which is a structural tool used to oppress racial minorities). 

Even from her C support, Ingrid's already beginning to recognise she's got it wrong. It's hardly like she's irredeemable, or even a bad person, as a result of this one interaction. No one is born perfect, and racism is bigger than any individual. That doesn't mean that we should excuse Ingrid - it's perfectly legitimate to call out racism where we see it. But the toxicity that's gathered around the words 'racism' and 'racist' in public discourse has meant it's difficult to see through to the people beneath, for both sides of any discussion about race. People can be good and decent in many respects despite racist attitudes, but this fact has become increasingly difficult to acknowledge in today's world of moral binaries. What is more important is the spirit of constantly examining ourselves, and doing our best to do right by others - someone who makes mistakes in a genuine effort to be anti-racist is far more respectable than a 'nice' person who is comfortable in not engaging with how to treat people better.

Sorry, that got a little preachy, but I hope I got my point across.

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6 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

Except that's literally not what racism is. Ingrid's anger towards the people of Duscur isn't based on race, it's based on the country's actions. That's why she phrases it "people of Duscur". Hell, we don't even know enough about Duscur to call it a race. Dedue's the only person from Duscur we actually see. It could've been home to any number of ethnicities. I mean, if you say "people of America" or "people of England", there's no way you can be talking about one specific race.

Islam is a religion, not a race. That comparison isn't exactly helping your argument.

Where are you getting this? The entirety of Duscur was just a plot device meant to give the Blue Lions a tragic backstory and fuel Dimitri's hatred towards Edelgard. Other than that, Duscur amounts to squat in the actual story. Like I said before, we don't even get to see Duscur or any of its people besides Dedue. Are you sure you're not thinking of Almyra, which I'll admit is a pretty clear Mexican border allegory?

I never said Ingrid's anger towards Duscur was justified or right, I said it was understandable. She's not hating blindly, that's the point. There's a clear reason behind her feelings, and it's not petty racism or "them's not from 'round deez parts", it's a tragedy that caused her personal loss and suffering. A tragedy that, as far as she (and most people in Faerghus) knows, the people of Duscur were directly responsible for. So yes, maybe in her anger and grief she convinced herself that Duscur deserved its punishment. After all, if it wasn't for their actions, her beloved Glenn would still be with her. It makes perfect sense that Duscur made its lasting impresson on her as a nation of heartless killers above all else. I mean, think about how someone who lost a loved one in WW2 would've thought about Germany after the war ended. It's the same exact feeling. And it's perfectly understandable. It isn't right, but it's a far-cry from the blind hatred of racism.

And like you said, she learns to let go of her anger through her supports with Dedue. The truly racist characters (like TWSITD) die, as they should.

...you don't really know what racism is, do you? If she hated the country she would just say, "I hate Duscur." But she doesn't. She says she hates the people of Duscur. There's a far cry difference from saying, "I hate China" and "I hate the people of China". One is considered racist, is it not? Your entire argument is rooted on the idea that you're personally unsure if Duscur is home to multiple ethnicities or not, but from what we know and what is implied, it isn't. It's not like America or England, so that's a pretty bad comparison. If you hated the people of India based on their actions, you'd be hating on Indians, which is ... lo and behold ... racism. Versus hating on the COUNTRY itself, has no effect on the people.

I didn't say Islam, now did I? I said "Muslims", which is indeed ... a race. The point where people conflate Islam the religion and Muslims is a whole other issue. But Islamphobia quickly turned to racism against Muslims, so my point is actually perfectly valid.

Second, we do see other people of Duscur in Dedue's paraologue, where they are generally designed to be darker. Almyra was also another allegory for race and racism. But by YOUR definition, Almyra isn't an allegory for race or racism either because it's ALSO a country. I'm not saying the game wrote it the best they could, but a lot of times in media (specifically video games and novels), use countries hand in hand with race. Not necessarily always correct, but it's what they do. In this case, the "people of Duscur" are referred to as a race/ethnicity. From what we see, people can define Dedue as someone from Duscur by his appearance alone. Which would suggest the people look like him. It's the same way people see a specific shade of dark skin and think (from appearance alone) they must be from India. Or they see angled eyes and assume, "Asian". 

I actually would argue that she is hating blindly. I never said her blind hatred WASN'T understandable. But it was indeed a blind hatred. Anger and tragedy do that to people. It can create a blind hatred that no longer sees people as individuals but as a group. And it's that lumping of an entire group of people that is racism. You act like racism is just black and white, when it's so much deeper and multi-faceted than that. Racism doesn't have to be petty or random. It can be rooted in things. Anger. Grief. Pain. But at the end of the day, racism IS blind hatred. And that's what Ingrid faced, and had to overcome. Racism can be overcome. People can change. I don't understand what's so wrong about admitting that she was racist and overcame her grief, sadness and the blind hatred she felt toward the people of Duscur (aka: racism). 

Edited by Kiran_

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1 hour ago, starburst said:

This is where I disagree with you. Ingrid does not go "wrong" in anything, her reaction is perfectly understandable. She might be a better person to us if her feelings and reaction were different, but there is nothing intrinsically "wrong" with them. If anything, they make her more realistic.

I only meant "wrong" in the sense that blaming people like Dedue (who clearly don't condone the Tragedy) isn't exactly fair. It makes perfect sense why she did, but it wasn't the right thing to do. But that doesn't make her a bad person at all. Ingrid's one of my favorite characters in no small part because of her kindness and loyalty. And like the kindhearted person she is, she realizes her mistake and apologises.

@haarhaarhaar I get what you mean about Ingrid's treatment of Dedue. But that's still not tied to race in any way. You're right, racism is just a specific type of prejudice. But "racism" can't be used as a blanket term for prejudice. Especially in cases where, unlike racism, someone's prejudice isn't unfounded. Ingrid's treatment of Dedue was simply a case of misplaced anger over something his country did that affected her. That's why it's so easily resolved. If racism was really the root of Ingird's anger, Dedue's words would've meant nothing to her because she'd never have listened to him. But that's a completely separate topic I'd rather not dive into here. It seems we both have different opinions on the way Ingrid acted, so it's probably best to just leave it at that.

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1 minute ago, RainbowMoon said:

It seems we both have different opinions on the way Ingrid acted, so it's probably best to just leave it at that.

Of course. Thanks for the discussion, and for being courteous throughout.

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1 hour ago, haarhaarhaar said:

But the toxicity that's gathered around the words 'racism' and 'racist' in public discourse has meant it's difficult to see through to the people beneath, for both sides of any discussion about race. People can be good and decent in many respects despite racist attitudes, but this fact has become increasingly difficult to acknowledge in today's world of moral binaries.

This paragraph summarises my ideas and my experience in this regard.

Your reflection was an interesting read. Cheers.

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3 hours ago, meteorblade said:

You could even say that Rodrigues helping Dimitri was only because of his promise to Lambert.

I think its a bit more than that. While his promise to Lambert played a large role there's nothing to suggest Dimitri and Rodrigue aren't genuinely close. Rodrigue seems devoted to Dimitri in general and not just his position as Lambert son's in particular. Given his close friendship with Lambert and Dimitri having grown up with his children its safe to say Rodrigue must have known Dimitri his entire life. 

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Dimitri had not one but two surrogate father figures who tended to him at the expense of their own children, and he has a handful of close childhood friends who attend the academy alongside him. They didn't abandon him, either; they didn't know he escaped and survived the prison break, and he didn't return to the Kingdom to help the resistance versus Cornelia. And Gilbert does try to track him down.

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@haarhaarhaar I’d like to thank you for your interesting and nuanced discussion on prejudice and racism, as well as your thread on Fódlan and race. I didn’t participate in either, because I don’t feel myself educated enough on this topic to articulate my thoughts efficiently, but your posts helped me to have a better grasp of the differences on a systemic and individual level, and I generally agree with your point of view on the issue. 

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A bit of a hard one, since no one really comes to mind immediately. (Which is a good sign, usually.)

I guess ultimately I have to say Rhea and uh Felix? I think Felix is a dope unit but he's kinda uninteresting.

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18 hours ago, Kiran_ said:

Your entire argument is rooted on the idea that you're personally unsure if Duscur is home to multiple ethnicities or not, but from what we know and what is implied, it isn't.

Okay, I just did Dedue's paralogue today out of curiosity and it does look like the Duscur soldiers are darker skinned. But you're completely wrong to say that my entire argument is rooted in that. I made several points in my earlier post that you either misinterpreted or flat-out ignored.

18 hours ago, Kiran_ said:

But by YOUR definition, Almyra isn't an allegory for race or racism either because it's ALSO a country.

Like this. When did I ever say that racism towards Almyra or Duscur is impossible because they're also countries? Never, that's when. I said that Ingrid's prejudice is based on the country's actions, not racial or cultural identity. The only time I brought up Almyra was when you were talking about Duscur being a "clear allegory for racism", when aside from a few throwaway remarks from nameless NPCs, that's simply not the case like it is for Almyra. Duscur's mentioned more times than not in reference to the Tragedy and nothing else.

18 hours ago, Kiran_ said:

I never said her blind hatred WASN'T understandable.

You just contradicted yourself here. By saying it's understandable, you're admitting that it's not blind hatred. It can't be both.

18 hours ago, Kiran_ said:

Anger and tragedy do that to people. It can create a blind hatred that no longer sees people as individuals but as a group. And it's that lumping of an entire group of people that is racism. You act like racism is just black and white, when it's so much deeper and multi-faceted than that. Racism doesn't have to be petty or random. It can be rooted in things. Anger. Grief. Pain. But at the end of the day, racism IS blind hatred. And that's what Ingrid faced, and had to overcome. Racism can be overcome. People can change. I don't understand what's so wrong about admitting that she was racist and overcame her grief, sadness and the blind hatred she felt toward the people of Duscur (aka: racism). 

You... seem genuinely confused about what racism actually means. You're describing prejudice, which is a much broader and varied thing, and calling it racism. You're the one thinking in black and white here. Prejudice that's rooted in something like anger, grief or pain isn't racism because, well, it's rooted in anger, grief or pain. There's a legitimate reason behind it that isn't race. It still isn't right, but it's not blind, unfounded hatred. And that's why it's so much more easily overcome than racism. I mean, if Ingrid was truly racist deep down, do you really think a few conversations with Dedue were gonna somehow "cure" her? I certainly don't. That's a completely unrealistic expectation.

Edited by RainbowMoon

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6 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

You... seem genuinely confused about what racism actually means. You're describing prejudice, which is a much broader and varied thing, and calling it racism. You're the one thinking in black and white here. Prejudice that's rooted in something like anger, grief or pain isn't racism because, well, it's rooted in anger, grief or pain. There's a legitimate reason behind it that isn't race. It still isn't right, but it's not blind, unfounded hatred. And that's why it's so much more easily overcome than racism. I mean, if Ingrid was truly racist deep down, do you really think a few conversations with Dedue were gonna somehow "cure" her? I certainly don't. That's a completely unrealistic expectation.

For one thing, I’ve heard it argued (and can kind of agree) that her conversations with Dedue aren’t an indication that she’s overcome her racism/prejudice/whatever you wanna call it. She learns that Dedue is a good person, sure. But the true test would be how she interacts with other Duscurians. She says that the people she hates are the ones responsible for the tragedy, but if she goes around treating other people of Duscur like how she initially treated Dedue, with distrust, hostility and suspicion, then she hasn’t overcome anything other than her poor treatment of Dedue. It’s a shame we never saw her interact with any Duscurians other than Dedue, so we have no way to know for sure if Ingrid did overcome her racism in that B support, or basically did a “one of the good ones” type thing, and the next time she meets a Duscurian, she’ll assume the same things she did of Dedue initially.

That aside, as far as I’m aware racism isn’t necessarily a blind, unfounded hatred. According to the definitions I’ve found, at least, it’s simply prejudice, hatred or antagonisation of a person based on the factor of race. How exactly that race came to be deemed as a negative thing in the mind of the person isn’t a factor as far as I know. You could have the most justifiable reason in the world for hating somebody, but applying that hatred to unrelated people just because they share characteristics of that group is prejudiced regardless. Similarly, you could have almost no reason to hate a group and still be prejudiced. Ingrid falls more into the former- she experienced loss at the hands of the people of Duscur (so she believes), and holds negative views of all of them because of that, which is understandable, and relatable to a certain extent.

If we were to compare her to somebody like Fernand from Echoes, Fernand lost his family to a peasant revolt and now holds bitterness and hatred towards all commoners- a classic example of prejudice (I guess it’d be classism in this case). Ingrid lost her fiancé in the Tragedy of Duscur, and now holds bitterness and hatred towards all people of Duscur. That’s also classic prejudice, but in this case it’s assigned based off of race or ethnicity- and either way both of those are forms of racism.

I do believe that Ingrid isn’t a bad person and has her reasons for hating like she does, but the way she treated Dedue was still a form of racism IMO. Just because it’s not unfounded doesn’t make it not racist.

But honestly I’m very inexperienced with this kind of issue, so this is just my thoughts based on what little I do know. I might have missed something major.

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On 9/5/2020 at 11:17 PM, Anathaco said:

Lysithea and Catherine. Most of Lysithea’s interactions annoy me when she acts like a brat then expects the other person to take her seriously. She grows past it in some of her supports, but it’s ultimately too little too late for me.

Catherine is more me being a contrarian than anything- people seem to think that Cyril is worse when it comes to their obsession with Rhea, but it’s quality over quantity for me. Cyril may talk about her more, but Catherine has a far more unhealthy obsession, and Cyril gets a pass because he’s a kid and his view of the world is naturally centred only on his own experience. Besides, Cyril is a sass god. And Catherine’s other supports bored me mostly.

I find that’s the beautiful irony.  She tries so hard get treated like an adult she doesn’t realise how childish she is.

Sure it’s get a bit old after a while but I find that interesting.

Catherine I never paid too much attention to.

Agree on Cyril, I was surprised he’s so unliked.  I love his Hilda and Manuela sass.

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On 9/5/2020 at 11:21 PM, lenticular said:

Byleth, by a long way. I don't like blank-slate player-insert characters, and nothing about Byleth changed my mind. I also feel that interactions with Byleth are the things I like least about other characters. Edelgard's schoolgirl crush on Byleth was the worst part of Edelgard, Leonie's competing over who loved Jeralt more was the worst part of Leonie, etc. As the main player character, Byleth is also the hardest to ignore. If someone else irritates me, I can largely ignore them, but Byleth is always there.

Dishonourable mentions go to TWSITD for being one-dimensional cartoon evil, Bernadetta for being portrayed in a tonally inconsistent way that jumps between comedy and tragedy, and Anna for having no supports.

I haven’t played much with Bernadetta but the rest I 100% agree with. Byleth brings out the worst in everyone.

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5 minutes ago, The Exalt said:

I find that’s the beautiful irony.  She tries so hard get treated like an adult she doesn’t realise how childish she is.

Sure it’s get a bit old after a while but I find that interesting.

Oh, she's well written and the folly in her actions is criticised by the game, but I just really find it annoying. It's not that she's poorly written as much as it is a personal dislike on my part.

(And if I'm being honest, my original post was worded overly negatively because I bought into the idea of just ranting about everything I dislike about a character)

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3 minutes ago, Anathaco said:

Oh, she's well written and the folly in her actions is criticised by the game, but I just really find it annoying. It's not that she's poorly written as much as it is a personal dislike on my part.

(And if I'm being honest, my original post was worded overly negatively because I bought into the idea of just ranting about everything I dislike about a character)

That’s fair

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Least favorites? Hubert the edgelord, Ferdinand VON AEGIR!!!!!! aaand... gilbert.

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