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Who are your least favorite 3H characters?

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12 hours ago, Anathaco said:

For one thing, I’ve heard it argued (and can kind of agree) that her conversations with Dedue aren’t an indication that she’s overcome her racism/prejudice/whatever you wanna call it. She learns that Dedue is a good person, sure. But the true test would be how she interacts with other Duscurians. She says that the people she hates are the ones responsible for the tragedy, but if she goes around treating other people of Duscur like how she initially treated Dedue, with distrust, hostility and suspicion, then she hasn’t overcome anything other than her poor treatment of Dedue. It’s a shame we never saw her interact with any Duscurians other than Dedue, so we have no way to know for sure if Ingrid did overcome her racism in that B support, or basically did a “one of the good ones” type thing, and the next time she meets a Duscurian, she’ll assume the same things she did of Dedue initially.

That aside, as far as I’m aware racism isn’t necessarily a blind, unfounded hatred. According to the definitions I’ve found, at least, it’s simply prejudice, hatred or antagonisation of a person based on the factor of race. How exactly that race came to be deemed as a negative thing in the mind of the person isn’t a factor as far as I know. You could have the most justifiable reason in the world for hating somebody, but applying that hatred to unrelated people just because they share characteristics of that group is prejudiced regardless. Similarly, you could have almost no reason to hate a group and still be prejudiced. Ingrid falls more into the former- she experienced loss at the hands of the people of Duscur (so she believes), and holds negative views of all of them because of that, which is understandable, and relatable to a certain extent.

If we were to compare her to somebody like Fernand from Echoes, Fernand lost his family to a peasant revolt and now holds bitterness and hatred towards all commoners- a classic example of prejudice (I guess it’d be classism in this case). Ingrid lost her fiancé in the Tragedy of Duscur, and now holds bitterness and hatred towards all people of Duscur. That’s also classic prejudice, but in this case it’s assigned based off of race or ethnicity- and either way both of those are forms of racism.

I do believe that Ingrid isn’t a bad person and has her reasons for hating like she does, but the way she treated Dedue was still a form of racism IMO. Just because it’s not unfounded doesn’t make it not racist.

But honestly I’m very inexperienced with this kind of issue, so this is just my thoughts based on what little I do know. I might have missed something major.

That's a fair take, honestly. The only thing I'd really disagree with is that her prejudice is based off race/ethnicity. I'd say it's nationality more than anything. I guess in the end though what it comes down to is where each of us draw the boundaries of racism. I personally feel that Ingrid, while clearly in the wrong with her treatment of Dedue, was in something of a sympathetic "grey" area compared to the outright "evil" of racism. And that's why she seems able to learn and grow past her prejudice instead of slowly becoming someone like Thales. But again, it's all a matter of opinion. I know this is a topic that not everybody agrees on, and I'm glad we could discuss it civilly without any accusations or caps lock.

As for Lysithea, yeah I kinda get why some people find her annoying. I don't really take her snark all that seriously, so I can laugh at most of it. But I can see why she's not everyone's cup of tea.

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On 9/9/2020 at 1:22 AM, Kiran_ said:

I didn't say Islam, now did I? I said "Muslims", which is indeed ... a race. The point where people conflate Islam the religion and Muslims is a whole other issue. But Islamphobia quickly turned to racism against Muslims, so my point is actually perfectly valid.

Excuse me? A Muslim by definition is someone who follows the religion of Islam, like a Christian is follows Christianity. What you said, would make more sense if you said arabs, but they are just one of many ethnic groups that makes up most Middle Eastern countries. Islam has people of many different backgrounds following it and they would be all considered Muslims regardless of their country of origin. 

In any case, I am not sure who my least favourite character in the game would be, because I don't really harbour any real resentment towards anyone. Yes, I do really hate Thales or the despicable things he had done, but he is kind of supposed to be hatable. The one who would be my least favourite is probably someone I constantly forget exists because they are so insignificant. 

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8 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

The only thing I'd really disagree with is that her prejudice is based off race/ethnicity. I'd say it's nationality more than anything.

Note that while Four Houses is set in the Modern Era (as opposed to other entries, witch are set in the Middle Ages), the concept of “nation” is still very recent.

Look at a map of Europe from the late eighteenth- or early nineteenth centuries; there were kingdoms, confederations and empires, but no “nations” in the current sense.
The idea that the population of the territory shares a common language, common descent and common culture is a modern one, and very recent actually. Awareness and enforcement of this identity is however at the core of our current “nation states.”

I do doubt that the modern concepts of “nation” and “nationalism” have a place in the setting of Four Houses.

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Each and every single one of the Ashen Wolves felt a missed opportunity to me, they don’t feel fully fleshed out and are poorly intergrated into the main story, so much so that I don’t even consider them to be canon characters. They’re nothing but a waste of money.

I also dislike Ignatz and Raphael due to how painfully boring they are, I honestly forget that they exist most of the time. They’re a big part of the reason why the Golden Deer is my least favourite house. 

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13 hours ago, starburst said:

Note that while Four Houses is set in the Modern Era (as opposed to other entries, witch are set in the Middle Ages), the concept of “nation” is still very recent.

Look at a map of Europe from the late eighteenth- or early nineteenth centuries; there were kingdoms, confederations and empires, but no “nations” in the current sense.
The idea that the population of the territory shares a common language, common descent and common culture is a modern one, and very recent actually. Awareness and enforcement of this identity is however at the core of our current “nation states.”

I do doubt that the modern concepts of “nation” and “nationalism” have a place in the setting of Four Houses.

Maybe "homeland" is the right word then? I know nationality's more of a modern term but I was stuck for a word. What I was trying to say was that it's based on where he's from, not any racial characteristics like language, culture, etc.

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On 9/11/2020 at 6:37 PM, Garsoba said:

Leonie is a thirsty child

What? Leonie is one of the least.... interested in sex and romance of the characters? Where do you get that from?

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4 hours ago, salinea said:

What? Leonie is one of the least.... interested in sex and romance of the characters? Where do you get that from?

Probably the fact that most of the words she speaks involve Jeralt one way or another.

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Still mid-playthrough and early game but I hate how Rhea is handled.

She's pretty much obviously evil but Byleth apparently doesn't see anything wrong with her considering the dialogue options always give the impression they don't think she's a religious nut-case. (Which I did, very early on.)

I feel like I'm working for an obviously evil cult leader but the game's acting like she's just a religous leader who totally doesn't come off as creepy/evil in anyway. (And all of the dialogue options don't give me an option to tell her to stop attributing everything I've done to her dumb god's protection.)

Good ol' Innsmouth in Call of Cthulhu were less overtly cultish than the Monestary.

There's nothing more frustrating for me than being rail-roaded into following/working for an obnoxiously clearly awful person and Rhea is pretty much one of the worst examples.

Edited by Samz707

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42 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

Still mid-playthrough and early game but I hate how Rhea is handled.

She's pretty much obviously evil but Byleth apparently doesn't see anything wrong with her considering the dialogue options always give the impression they don't think she's a religious nut-case. (Which I did, very early on.)

I feel like I'm working for an obviously evil cult leader but the game's acting like she's just a religous leader who totally doesn't come off as creepy/evil in anyway. (And all of the dialogue options don't give me an option to tell her to stop attributing everything I've done to her dumb god's protection.)

Good ol' Innsmouth in Call of Cthulhu were less overtly cultish than the Monestary.

There's nothing more frustrating for me than being rail-roaded into following/working for an obnoxiously clearly awful person and Rhea is pretty much one of the worst examples.

What house are you playing? Given what you said I hope it is Black Eagles. If so you have an opportunity you will greately enjoy.

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47 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

What house are you playing? Given what you said I hope it is Black Eagles. If so you have an opportunity you will greately enjoy.

Yeah Black eagles and I know about the twist for that.

I still don't like how the game just assumes I'm cool with working for kinda blatantly semi-unhinged religous nut-cases with no question, you don't just casually mention the Church executes people and expect me to just go "Oh, that's fine". 

Again, it annoys me because it makes it feel even more so like all the dialogue choices are just for show or to speed up supports, since Byleth never gets the opprotunity to say anything actually negative to someone. (And I'm pretty sure an experienced mercenary would say that it was all skill and no god when Rhea credits them winning a battle because of the goddess.), there's not even that much choices and I still feel like I'm being rail-roaded to at least initially side with these clearly evil people.

"Oh we need to put the students to risk to guard Rhea when she does this one ceremony thing" buzz off, there's no way there's not enough Church members to guard one room for a day.

I really can't stand being forced to work for someone who's literally got no redeeming qualities and just rubs me the wrong way in literally every scene with her.

 

Edited by Samz707

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8 hours ago, Samz707 said:

Yeah Black eagles and I know about the twist for that.

I still don't like how the game just assumes I'm cool with working for kinda blatantly semi-unhinged religous nut-cases with no question, you don't just casually mention the Church executes people and expect me to just go "Oh, that's fine". 

 

Just curious, from a leader's (Rhea) perspective what's wrong about executing a group of accused assassins against you? Especially they were accused to be working with Lornato, who was just saying he's goal was to kill you.

It's actually a much bigger conspiracy behind that event but I won't spoil for you, which you probably have to play multiple route to find out. just wondering what you think about it first.

Edited by Timlugia

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9 hours ago, Samz707 said:

I still don't like how the game just assumes I'm cool with working for kinda blatantly semi-unhinged religous nut-cases with no question, you don't just casually mention the Church executes people and expect me to just go "Oh, that's fine". 

"Oh we need to put the students to risk to guard Rhea when she does this one ceremony thing" buzz off, there's no way there's not enough Church members to guard one room for a day.

i mean, you're literally working at a monastery which is also where the Archbishop herself lives and manages her authority, it would be strange for you and your students NOT to fight to protect her, whether you as a player like it or not

10 hours ago, Samz707 said:

I feel like I'm working for an obviously evil cult leader but the game's acting like she's just a religous leader who totally doesn't come off as creepy/evil in anyway. (And all of the dialogue options don't give me an option to tell her to stop attributing everything I've done to her dumb god's protection.)

I really can't stand being forced to work for someone who's literally got no redeeming qualities and just rubs me the wrong way in literally every scene with her.

tbh the game's first half does EVERYTHING it can to make you doubt of Rhea's character and actions
not going to tell you if this hatred you feel towards Rhea is well placed or justified or neither of the 2, i'm just telling you that's exactly what the game wants you to do

Edited by Yexin

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1 hour ago, Yexin said:

i mean, you're literally working at a monastery which is also where the Archbishop herself lives and manages her authority, it would be strange for you and your students NOT to fight to protect her, whether you as a player like it or not

tbh the game's first half does EVERYTHING it can to make you doubt of Rhea's character and actions
not going to tell you if this hatred you feel towards Rhea is well placed or justified or neither of the 2, i'm just telling you that's exactly what the game wants you to do

Yeah but considering how Byleth acts I'm pretty sure I'm just supposed ot be "slightly" suspicious rather than wondering why the hell Byleth doesn't just leave, I'm not just doubtful, I'm pretty much at the point where if it turns out she has insulting the goddess punishable by death it'd just be a "Yeah I expected this" rather than any sort of surprise, she's pretty much just Goddess this and Goddess that so far. (I'm after killing Lonato.) 

I'm not mildly supicious, I'm at the "Why the hell would any sane person keep working for this clearly somewhat unhinged individual?" stage, which I don't think is quite what the devs intended since Byleth apparently is 100 percent fine with working for the church.

I doubt risking the future Empress of a nation is a good idea and the game's reason is just "We don't have enough troops" even though we're pretty much in the Knight of Serios HQ, which isn't even a reason. (You kinda have to explain why there somehow isn't enough troops at their literal headquarters rather than just saying it is, it comes across as a dumb narrative cop-out.)

 

Edited by Samz707

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1 hour ago, Samz707 said:

I'm not mildly supicious, I'm at the "Why the hell would any sane person keep working for this clearly somewhat unhinged individual?" stage.

because if Byleth didn't, then we wouldn't have had a story at all

probably you shouldn't even ask yourself "why this" or "why that"
really, the only way to make byleth not look downright dumb is to think he's canonically affected by trisomy 21 no offense to those who are actually affected by trisomy 21

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5 hours ago, Yexin said:

because if Byleth didn't, then we wouldn't have had a story at all

probably you shouldn't even ask yourself "why this" or "why that"
really, the only way to make byleth not look downright dumb is to think he's canonically affected by trisomy 21 no offense to those who are actually affected by trisomy 21

You can have a protagonist who at least somewhat picks up on or just have Rhea not be as overtly suspicious.

So far I know literally nothing about her as a person except that the Church of Serios comes across as border-line cult-ish, she's only been a suspicious Cult person, even trying to talk to her in the monestary is just about her religion. 

Yeah I don't like Byleth either, at all, I swear modern FE avatars are written to tick every box about video game protagnists that I hate. (Ignoring choices, lacking obvious choices, being idolized for merely breathing and people who should be suspicious of them or just merely uncomfortable around them like Berndetta opening up way too fast to be remotely believable.)

It's pretty hard to care for a story when I hate both my Main Lord and the Avatar. (It's why I hated Awakening since Chrom is basically as bad as Rhea IMO just for different reasons.)

Edited by Samz707

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1 hour ago, Samz707 said:

You can have a protagonist who at least somewhat picks up on or just have Rhea not be as overtly suspicious.

So far I know literally nothing about her as a person except that the Church of Serios comes across as border-line cult-ish, she's only been a suspicious Cult person, even trying to talk to her in the monestary is just about her religion. 

Yeah I don't like Byleth either, at all, I swear modern FE avatars are written to tick every box about video game protagnists that I hate. (Ignoring choices, lacking obvious choices, being idolized for merely breathing and people who should be suspicious of them or just merely uncomfortable around them like Berndetta opening up way too fast to be remotely believable.)

It's pretty hard to care for a story when I hate both my Main Lord and the Avatar. (It's why I hated Awakening since Chrom is basically as bad as Rhea IMO just for different reasons.)

Y’know maybe instead of judging the story by your own moral standards maybe you should judge the story by its own standards and the rules it sets for itself. You ever think to yourself that maybe just maybe that’s the point?

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17 hours ago, Samz707 said:

"Oh we need to put the students to risk to guard Rhea when she does this one ceremony thing" buzz off, there's no way there's not enough Church members to guard one room for a day.

8 hours ago, Yexin said:

i mean, you're literally working at a monastery which is also where the Archbishop herself lives and manages her authority, it would be strange for you and your students NOT to fight to protect her, whether you as a player like it or not

Ah yes, having the future Empress, the future King and the next whatever Claude´s title is (Duke?), protect the Archbishop. What do you mean piling up several VIP´s in one place is a bad idea? Oh, and never mind all these future heirs to some of Fodlans major houses - some of them being the only heirs to said houses - as well as a foreign princess trying to help out too.

This is fine.

Edited by Imuabicus

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2 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Y’know maybe instead of judging the story by your own moral standards maybe you should judge the story by its own standards and the rules it sets for itself. You ever think to yourself that maybe just maybe that’s the point?

If it was the point that I'm supposed to flat-out not-trust (Not slightly suspicious, flat out already "Why the hell haven't I left" mode) , I'm pretty sure Byleth wouldn't just nod ahead with everything Rhea says, it legit comes across more like everyone is indoctrinated when it's all "Oh god, why would this one king dude have his militia attack this church that literally dictates law to the point of bans stuff,  killed his kid and probably if they existed nowadays would consider insulting the goddess in a twitter post worthy of death for being a sinner.", the church is too overtly evil-y. (Even if we ignored our dad literally warning us about them) for me to buy that sane person wouldn't already have just left. (Even discounting the whole made a teacher against you will and basically them all-but forcing their religion on you at the start.)

I get I'm probably supossed to be supicious but I'm at the "Yeah these guys are evil" stage while Byleth is clearly only just starting to have second-thoughts, if any at this point so it's like I'm watching the world's least intelligent leader/teacher.

And I'm with the Black Eagles, who I already know are anti-church so I can only imagine how god damn brain-washed the rest of the houses must act in these similar scenes considering how Delthea already came across as brain-washed frankly.

 

1 hour ago, Imuabicus said:

Ah yes, having the future Empress, the future King and the next whatever Claude´s title is (Duke?), protect the Archbishop. What do you mean piling up several VIP´s in one place is a bad idea? Oh, and never mind all these future heirs to some of Fodlans major houses - some of them being the only heirs to said houses - as well as a foreign princess trying to help out too.

This is fine.

Except we're not protecting them, we're using them to protect the Archbishop, we're the guys outside the assassins will have to go through rather than the dudes inside being protected according to what Rhea said, we're literally using them as human shields for the archibishop because remember, the Assassins want Rhea, just her, not the students, we're literally putting them in the line of danger to guard Rhea, you can even flat-out ask her "Won't that endanger the students" and her response is just "Nah it'll be fiiiiiine because you'll be there.", the students are being endangered, not protected, Rhea flat-out knows they're being put in danger here, casually risking the life of a future Empress and King seems like a really dumb idea and only something that happens because we need Byleth and the Main Lord to fight in every battle.

Edited by Samz707

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2 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Y’know maybe instead of judging the story by your own moral standards maybe you should judge the story by its own standards and the rules it sets for itself. You ever think to yourself that maybe just maybe that’s the point?

For me, there's a big difference between a story where I'm just an observer and a story where I'm supposed to be a participant. If someone with a well-defined character does something that I consider weird/foolish/misguided/whatever then I can easily say, "oh, that's just their personality and their character" and move on. But for avatar characters -- especially blank-slate silent-protagonist player-insert avatar characters like Byleth -- the game is presenting the conceit that this character is actually "me" in some way. It's not just saying "Byleth isn't suspicious of the church" it's saying "you aren't suspcicious of the church" (or whatever else). If this conflicts with what I, the player, am thinking then that creates a disconnect. Instead of drawing me into the game's story, which is the intent of an avatar character, it pushes me out of the story.

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3 hours ago, Samz707 said:

You can have a protagonist who at least somewhat picks up on or just have Rhea not be as overtly suspicious.

So far I know literally nothing about her as a person except that the Church of Serios comes across as border-line cult-ish, she's only been a suspicious Cult person, even trying to talk to her in the monestary is just about her religion. 

Yeah I don't like Byleth either, at all, I swear modern FE avatars are written to tick every box about video game protagnists that I hate. (Ignoring choices, lacking obvious choices, being idolized for merely breathing and people who should be suspicious of them or just merely uncomfortable around them like Berndetta opening up way too fast to be remotely believable.)

It's pretty hard to care for a story when I hate both my Main Lord and the Avatar. (It's why I hated Awakening since Chrom is basically as bad as Rhea IMO just for different reasons.)

One reason I had no trouble siding against the church was that I really felt that Jeralt was pretty much forced to take up his old position, but didn't really want to be there. Same with Byleth, the church takes their allegiance for granted, but neither were really given any other choice. Yet Rhea still expects you to die for her, even expects you to kill your own students when they step out of line from the perspective of the church. She expects Byleth to be the chosen saviour of the faith, but they themselves were never given a choice in the matter. 

I also remember what Jeralt said early in the game. "Don't trust Rhea". Seems to me that Jeralt isn't there willingly. 

I will say that Rhea is a complicated character and isn't exclusively evil, but there are many things I am bothered by. Like her, stating before you take down the Lonato rebellion that you should make an example of what happens if you oppose the church.  

By the way, I think you will love Edelgard as your main Lord, especially if you hate Rhea. Just remember, it is absolutely imperative that you must have done Edelgard's C+ support before chapter 11 and you need to accompany her to her coronation during this same chapter. You will be locked into siding with Rhea otherwise and given what I hear from you here, it is the last you would want. 

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19 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

One reason I had no trouble siding against the church was that I really felt that Jeralt was pretty much forced to take up his old position, but didn't really want to be there. Same with Byleth, the church takes their allegiance for granted, but neither were really given any other choice. Yet Rhea still expects you to die for her, even expects you to kill your own students when they step out of line from the perspective of the church. She expects Byleth to be the chosen saviour of the faith, but they themselves were never given a choice in the matter. 

I also remember what Jeralt said early in the game. "Don't trust Rhea". Seems to me that Jeralt isn't there willingly. 

I will say that Rhea is a complicated character and isn't exclusively evil, but there are many things I am bothered by. Like her, stating before you take down the Lonato rebellion that you should make an example of what happens if you oppose the church.  

By the way, I think you will love Edelgard as your main Lord, especially if you hate Rhea. Just remember, it is absolutely imperative that you must have done Edelgard's C+ support before chapter 11 and you need to accompany her to her coronation during this same chapter. You will be locked into siding with Rhea otherwise and given what I hear from you here, it is the last you would want. 

Yeah I know.

I think it's kinda terrible how if I didn't C support Edelgard and do her thing the game would just assume I'm okay with following the church and  then force me to fight for them for the entire rest of the game. (Same with Dimitri going psycho in the second-half and the game assuming you must be okay with him doing that because you picked him at the very start of the game.)

 

Edited by Samz707

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21 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

Yeah I know.

I know I'd probably not like Dimitri, considering I got spoiled how he tries to torture a prisoner later one but Byleth, the paragon of justice!....kills the prisoner instead of actually stopping Dimitri because that's better!...somehow...somehow...

Yeah I know it's "Better" but merely executing a prisoner instead of torturing them is still a terrible thing to do and I'd probably immediately want  Dimitri to die in that situation no matter how much the game wants Byleth to be on his side, I'd pretty much stop caring about the plot and just want Dimitri and Byleth to die at that point since that's a pretty irredeemable act by my eyes.

 

Said prisoner is an imperial general, not that it really changes much. I would still reccomend playing that path. That Dimitri isn't some goodie two shoes heroic prince is actually what makes him a compelling character to me, his inner darkness just makes him more intresting.

Watching certain scenes will be difficult, but I still reccomend following that path to the end after you complete your current one. 

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Considering you seem to be still very early in the game, maybe at least finish two opposing paths first?

A number of the issues here would be resolved once you experienced perspectives from different characters.

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59 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

Yeah I know.

I think it's kinda terrible how if I didn't C support Edelgard and do her thing the game would just assume I'm okay with following the church and  then force me to fight for them for the entire rest of the game. (Same with Dimitri going psycho in the second-half and the game assuming you must be okay with him doing that because you picked him at the very start of the game.)

 

Yeah, but as someone who has played that path. I will just say this, the game always depicts Dimitri during his psycho phase to be in the wrong, his obsession is never depicted as the right thing to do, quite the opposite. 

But I don't know why the game offers you another choice if you are not feeling up for siding with Edelgard, but don't offer the same courtesy. If you don't feel right supporting Dimitri's crusade of vengeance. 

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