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Best non lord units?

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My top 4:

Felix: He is ridiculously fast, ridiculously strong and is the staple of every team he's on. A good wyvern, mortal savant (I hate this class), swordsmaster and even war master. His crest is also the best in the game and he also has access to an OP relic as well. His personal skill makes him arguably deal more damage than dimitri as well.

Leonie: Better ingrid. Stronger, bulkier and just as fast. Leonie can become a good flier (wyvern and pegasus), paladin, bow knight and sniper, but my personal favourite is falcon knight. It makes her ridiculously fast, have a great strength growth, and makes her absolutely amazing all game. Her personal is kinda meh though and she has no crest.

FERDINAND VON AEGIR: Dis man wasn't kidding when he said he is more talented than anyone in his class, including edelgard. Good as a paladin, great knight (I hate this class with a passion), warrior, war master, wyvern lord, and can even be one of the best sword units in the game. His personal skill, confidence, gives avoid+15 at full HP. Combined with a base speed growth of 50 (+20 from swordmaster), his avoid rate will be throught the roof, making him easily the 3rd best sword unit in the game. Ferdinand is quite literally a master at everything. I would say he is probably the best non-lord unit and probably third overall (claude and byleth are marginally better in my books).

Lysithea: The infamous orbital nuke. I understand how amazing she is, but every time I use her, the game laughs at me and makes me miss 70% magic growths, I always end up having to ditch her for another unit like annette or mercedes. Anyway, back to my point. Highest magic in the game, access to thrysus, essentially making her a 4 range nuke. Also, to add to her already op attack power, all her spells have ridiculously high might, guaranteeing a OHKO even against other magic units. These spells have very high weight as a drawback though, which lysithea compensates for by having a base of 50% in speed. Lysithea does have 2 major drawbacks: she has no def or res, meaning she will be ohko'd herself. She also only has two major class paths (in my opinion), which are gremory and maybe trickster. She has very high speed and magic, meaning she can be a viable dodge tank and also strike ridiculously hard with a levin sword or one of her spells. She could also support easy in this class with warp and her 4 range spells. Lysithea ranks 4th overall out of all units, in my opinion.

 

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Do the Ashen Wolves count as non lords? They are DLC and Yuri (along with Seteth) knows Model Leader which is something that the 3 lords and Byleth can learn as well

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Catherine, Felix, Leonie, Petra, Dorothea, Lysithea, Mercedes, and Marianne would probably be my list in some order.

Catherine, Felix, Leonie, and Petra are the best non-lord physical units in some order. All have excellent speed. Felix and Catherine have good strength on top of that, and in Catherine's case she joins as a complete powerhouse if recruited ASAP, while Felix's personal allows him to start snowballing quickly in chapter 1-3 BL even if it rapidly becomes irrelevant thereafter. All except Felix can access pegasus and get Darting Blow to further their speed advantage. Petra has a ridiculous talent list on top of that (axe+flying, yes please), while Leonie has solid growths across the board (bulk, charm) and has the option of Point-Blank Volley.

Dorothea, Mercedes, Lysithea, and Marianne are the best magic units in some order. Dorothea is the best user of Meteor in the game (a bit less good on GD, but the way she supports most of the key combat units on BE/BL is amazing), and gets Thoron and Physic besides. Mercedes is the best healer with Physic + Fortify + Live to Serve, but gets Ragnarok and enough magical oomph to claim OHKOs with it to boot. Lysithea I find a touch overrated but is still good, amazing magic power is a good place to be and Luna/Warp are nice utility even if I wish she had a 3 range spell or Physic. Marianne also has Thoron and Physic, and a quick access to Frozen Lance.  Both the deer mages were improved notably by the DLC imo, Lysithea because she finally has a useful class in Advanced tier and Marianne because the DLC classes make her Reason neutral less of a drawback and her Riding/Flying talents more important.

Honourable mentions include Ferdinand, Sylvain, Ingrid, and Shamir.

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Felix and Lysithea for being major crest, great growth power houses.

Ferdinand, Sylvain, Leonie, Cyril and Seteth for their busted combat arts.  They also all bring either utility, bulk, or in Seteths case, on board as a flyer with great weapon ranks.

Shamir for being a unit that you never have to change classes for.  To optimize you should, but you really don’t need to since battalions can shore up damage/hit as well as adjucting Catherine.  Snipers mastered combat art compensates for her speed.

Yuri and Constance if DLC counts.  Yuri has Lord-esque growths with ungodly speed, Constance has comparable growths to Lysithea and a great spell kit.

Edited by Garsoba

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I'll mention Bernadetta: The obvious thing that makes her super good is Vengeance, which she learns at C+ like all Vengeance users. Even before Vengeance, when her personal skill is activated she essentially has 13 strength, tied with Edelgard and Byleth. Give her Tempest Lance and she'll contribute nicely to finishing off enemies, or she can use her natural proficiency in Bows to Curved Shot, providing great chip damage from a distance. Pass is also worth noting for the flexibility in movement it gives, and Encloser is a really good combat art for removing threatening enemies. She can pull off a variety of builds very well, that focus on her combat to varying degrees, from utility and chip with Encloser to pure power with Vengeance, and she will be a relevant unit at almost any stage of the game.

Idk if Jeritza would be considered due to his poor availability, but I'd honestly rank him as close to the Lords despite that. Great bases that contribute from the moment he joins, amazing growths, particularly in strength and speed, access to Mastermind as an equippable ability which lets him level ranks quickly despite his join time, Darting Blow as a budding talent, Counterattack as a mastery ability for his unique class, and insane ranks including an A+ in Lances, A in Riding, C+ in axes for easy death blow, and B in authority despite his bane in it. Jeritza is just stacked in basically every way.

Edited by Anathaco

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1 hour ago, Anathaco said:

I'll mention Bernadetta: The obvious thing that makes her super good is Vengeance, which she learns at C+ like all Vengeance users. Even before Vengeance, when her personal skill is activated she essentially has 13 strength, tied with Edelgard and Byleth. Give her Tempest Lance and she'll contribute nicely to finishing off enemies, or she can use her natural proficiency in Bows to Curved Shot, providing great chip damage from a distance. Pass is also worth noting for the flexibility in movement it gives, and Encloser is a really good combat art for removing threatening enemies. She can pull off a variety of builds very well, that focus on her combat to varying degrees, from utility and chip with Encloser to pure power with Vengeance, and she will be a relevant unit at almost any stage of the game.

Idk if Jeritza would be considered due to his poor availability, but I'd honestly rank him as close to the Lords despite that. Great bases that contribute from the moment he joins, amazing growths, particularly in strength and speed, access to Mastermind as an equippable ability which lets him level ranks quickly despite his join time, Darting Blow as a budding talent, Counterattack as a mastery ability for his unique class, and insane ranks including an A+ in Lances, A in Riding, C+ in axes for easy death blow, and B in authority despite his bane in it. Jeritza is just stacked in basically every way.

I agree with both of your points. These options you mentioned for Bernie allows her go Bow Knight or Paladin which is easier for her to get into. Falcon Knight, which is better than paladin but no guard adjutant and flying battalions are limited so I would be careful when picking your fliers. Pass is really useful for her since it's not only a good filler, but it still allows her to gain advantages that no one else (besides Anna but she pales in comparison) can get.

As for Jeritza, him gaining Death Blow really easy helps him a lot. Darting Blow is also great for obvious reasons. Battalion Desperation oddly enough is an ability worth considering if you're thinking about him using a Brave Lance for example. Wyvern Lord also is a good option for him. Plus it gets him to use Alert Stance. Though I understand that having him join at the second half of the game might devalue your opinion on him a little and that you have less than enough time for him to get there. Especially since CF is the shortest of all the routes and he's only available in that route

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15 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Catherine, Felix, Leonie, Petra, Dorothea, Lysithea, Mercedes, and Marianne would probably be my list in some order.

Catherine, Felix, Leonie, and Petra are the best non-lord physical units in some order. All have excellent speed. Felix and Catherine have good strength on top of that, and in Catherine's case she joins as a complete powerhouse if recruited ASAP, while Felix's personal allows him to start snowballing quickly in chapter 1-3 BL even if it rapidly becomes irrelevant thereafter. All except Felix can access pegasus and get Darting Blow to further their speed advantage. Petra has a ridiculous talent list on top of that (axe+flying, yes please), while Leonie has solid growths across the board (bulk, charm) and has the option of Point-Blank Volley.

Dorothea, Mercedes, Lysithea, and Marianne are the best magic units in some order. Dorothea is the best user of Meteor in the game (a bit less good on GD, but the way she supports most of the key combat units on BE/BL is amazing), and gets Thoron and Physic besides. Mercedes is the best healer with Physic + Fortify + Live to Serve, but gets Ragnarok and enough magical oomph to claim OHKOs with it to boot. Lysithea I find a touch overrated but is still good, amazing magic power is a good place to be and Luna/Warp are nice utility even if I wish she had a 3 range spell or Physic. Marianne also has Thoron and Physic, and a quick access to Frozen Lance.  Both the deer mages were improved notably by the DLC imo, Lysithea because she finally has a useful class in Advanced tier and Marianne because the DLC classes make her Reason neutral less of a drawback and her Riding/Flying talents more important.

Honourable mentions include Ferdinand, Sylvain, Ingrid, and Shamir.

I mostly agree with this analysis.  I think Catherine deserves to be a half step down from everyone mentioned here, just because she isn't quite as good as Felix.  The only advantages she has are access to Darting Blow (which doesn't matter that much given both units' high speed) and potentially joining as a sub-level 20 Swordmaster (which doesn't matter after level 20).  Still very good though.

I think those are the best four mages in the base game, but if we're including the DLC I think Dorothea and potentially Marianne fall off the list.  Dorothea has an amazing Reason list, but starting with a Faith bane hurts even if it eventually is a budding talent.  The fact that she also has poor magic growth (for a mage) really counteracts how great her spell list is.  Marianne not having a boon in reason also really hurts her, considering how poor faith magic is for attacking.  It's a doubly whammy with the reason list as well, considering how awkward it is to use given how many Ice-type spells she has (low hit%/high crit%).  She has a good Faith list (Silence is a nice utility spell as a bonus), but I think Mercedes just outpaces her as a pure healer.  I would definitely take Constance over both of them.  I would take Hapi over Dorothea, and potentially over Marianne as well.

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If i no count Hubert, Dedue, Church, Anna and Ashen Wolves then :

  • 1st : Byleth
  • 2nd : Lysithea
  • 3rd : Ingrid
  • 4th : Felix
  • 5th : Leonie
  • 6th : Mercedes
  • 7th : Hilda
  • 8th : Petra
  • 9th : Ferdinand
  • 10th : Annette
  • 11th : Marianne
  • 12th : Bernadetta
  • 13th : Sylvain
  • 14th : Linhardt
  • 15th : Dorothea
  • 16th : Ignatz
  • 17th : Caspar
  • 18th : Raphael
  • 19th : Lorenz
  • 20th : Ashe

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2 minutes ago, drattakbowser said:

If i no count Hubert, Dedue, Church, Anna and Ashen Wolves then :

  • 1st : Byleth
  • 2nd : Lysithea
  • 3rd : Ingrid
  • 4th : Felix
  • 5th : Leonie
  • 6th : Mercedes
  • 7th : Hilda
  • 8th : Petra
  • 9th : Ferdinand
  • 10th : Annette
  • 11th : Marianne
  • 12th : Bernadetta
  • 13th : Sylvain
  • 14th : Linhardt
  • 15th : Dorothea
  • 16th : Ignatz
  • 17th : Caspar
  • 18th : Raphael
  • 19th : Lorenz
  • 20th : Ashe

Gotta be honest here:

lorenz is not 19th, probably 12-15, ferdinand probably 3rd, ingrid 17th, bernadetta 8th

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1 minute ago, ThatsEnoughBackTalk said:

Gotta be honest here:

lorenz is not 19th, probably 12-15, ferdinand probably 3rd, ingrid 17th, bernadetta 8th

The ingrid i play ! I can 1 vs 10 ! Trust me ! Pegasus unit is very op.

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5 minutes ago, ThatsEnoughBackTalk said:

Gotta be honest here:

lorenz is not 19th, probably 12-15, ferdinand probably 3rd, ingrid 17th, bernadetta 8th

I call bullshit on the bold. Lorenz is just outclassed magically, AND he's outclassed physically. Yippee. Why in the seven hells would I want to use someone who's too balanced for his own good?? I have my doubts Ferdinand is that good, too. 

Edited by Shadow Mir

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2 hours ago, ThatsEnoughBackTalk said:

Despite your points, marianne still makes a killer trickster: heal and physic, boon in sword and faith, access to blutgang and quick access to levin swords makes her brutal.

I like Marianne, but Trickster is kinda just bad. It's basically inferior to Mortal Savant in every way, which is really saying something because Mortal Savant is average at best. Compared to Mortal Savant, Trickster gets half magic uses, no Tombfair, no Swordfair, and 5 move insteaed of 6.

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1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

I call bullshit on the bold. Lorenz is just outclassed magically, AND he's outclassed physically. Yippee. Why in the seven hells would I want to use someone who's too balanced for his own good?? I have my doubts Ferdinand is that good, too. 

how tf is ferdinand bad?!!!!!

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6 minutes ago, ThatsEnoughBackTalk said:

how tf is ferdinand bad?!!!!!

Where did I say Ferdinand was bad? Point it out to me. Oh wait, that's right, you can't because I did not say Ferdinand was bad.

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58 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Where did I say Ferdinand was bad? Point it out to me. Oh wait, that's right, you can't because I did not say Ferdinand was bad.

Christ, calm your tits.

Anyway, you said that you have doubts ferdinand is good. Care to explain?

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2 hours ago, Burklight said:

I like Marianne, but Trickster is kinda just bad. It's basically inferior to Mortal Savant in every way, which is really saying something because Mortal Savant is average at best. Compared to Mortal Savant, Trickster gets half magic uses, no Tombfair, no Swordfair, and 5 move insteaed of 6.

-10 speed. -10 SPEED. on a sword class?! seriously?

 

You honestly can't compare the two as they perform different roles. Mortal savant performs as a frontliner, excepts its bad in that role due to annihilating speed and doesnt compensate at all. Swordfaire is nice, sure, but most units who go into savant are units like felix

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16 minutes ago, ThatsEnoughBackTalk said:

Christ, calm your tits.

Anyway, you said that you have doubts ferdinand is good. Care to explain?

Do YOU think he's better than Petra? Because I don't. I also have issues making a case for him over Felix, let alone anyone in between those two. It doesn't help that he's hard to recruit, in case you didn't start with the Black Eagles.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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Please keep in mind that I have yet to do a Blue Lions playthrough.

Black Eagles:

  • Ferdinand: Great Jack-of-all-trades. 
  • Petra: she's fast, she's versatile.
  • Dorothea: good stats and a great list of spells. Meteor in particular comes in handy. 

Golden Deer:

  • Lysithea: She's a glass cannon, but emphasis is on cannon, not glass. Easily one of the best mage units in the game if not the best. Outside of offence, she also learns warp, which is very useful. 
  • Marianne: great healer, and she has flying proficiency, frozen lance and a magic-based sword with her crest if you don't need her to be magic. 

Other:

  • Jeritza: Starts off great and remains greats for the rest of the playthrough. He's only available in part 2, but he makes a great addition. 

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10 minutes ago, ThatsEnoughBackTalk said:

-10 speed. -10 SPEED. on a sword class?! seriously?

This does suck, but that's -1 Spd compared to average between Lv 30 and Lv 40. Speed is a big deal, but by Lv 30, against Maddening enemies even your fastest units aren't gonna catch up. For Normal, this isn't a problem at all, and for Hard, it's only a problem for those units whose speed is just on the threshold of doubling - i.e. it isn't gonna make a significant difference. 

15 minutes ago, ThatsEnoughBackTalk said:

You honestly can't compare the two as they perform different roles. Mortal savant performs as a frontliner, excepts its bad in that role due to annihilating speed and doesnt compensate at all. Swordfaire is nice, sure, but most units who go into savant are units like felix

This is a fair point, but to be honest I think Mortal Savant is better for mages who want to fight on the frontlines. Lysithea and Marianne both do alright in MS, for example (I have a feeling Constance might as well). In comparison, most sword users have either poor spells or not enough mag to secure KOs in MS - and while I'm a big fan of giving units access to healing spells, you'd have to raise Faith as well as Reason for a physical unit, which mages mind less. 

I've found Trickster to be pretty useless in practice. Assassin also has Locktouch and Stealth, and Swordfaire beats Trickster's Lucky Seven, which is very difficult to game. Trickster's magic access can occasionally be nice for some units, but C+/B Faith for sword users tends to be pointless. Again, mages could make use of the class, but MS having two faires and full magic access would make it a straight upgrade on Trickster. I like Foul Play, but it being locked behind class mastery and only on a 5-range unit drastically limits its usefulness. Duelist's Blow is also one of the more pointless masteries in the game. 

 

As for my best non-lords:

Jeritza, Sylvain, Leonie, and Shamir for physical units. Petra and Felix just miss out, completely get the hype around their combat, but occasionally they haven't lived up to potential in my runs. I think I've always been lucky with Shamir, she's made every single one of my endgame parties and is always great. 

Hubert, Lysithea, Hapi, and Flayn. No coincidence that all the dark magic users are on this list, I love using dark magic (but it just so happens that these three dark magic users are also great in other ways. Lysithea is as discussed above, Hapi possibly has the best overall spell list in the game, Hubert has Banshee and Frozen Lance - his mag stat means the latter never stops KOing.  

Mercedes has Physic and Fortify (and Live to Serve in case she gets hit), so is a better straight healer than Flayn. But Physic is fairly common, and I'm normally running at least two Physic users anyway (two other mages, or a mage and a hybrid). Flayn also has Fortify, but has the rarer Rescue, and her superior Mag compared to Mercedes allows her to leverage that as well as get KOs with Excalibur, giving her better overall utility than Mercedes in my opinion. 

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4 hours ago, ThatsEnoughBackTalk said:

-10 speed. -10 SPEED. on a sword class?! seriously?

 

You honestly can't compare the two as they perform different roles. Mortal savant performs as a frontliner, excepts its bad in that role due to annihilating speed and doesnt compensate at all. Swordfaire is nice, sure, but most units who go into savant are units like felix

To be perfectly clear, not suggesting MS is good. It's pretty clearly not. The speed difference is kinda moot because Marianne shouldn't be taking a counter attack regardless. The safest thing for someone as frail as her would be one shotting, which MS is better at than Trickster. My point was that I can't think of a single thing Trickster does better than MS. 

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4 hours ago, ThatsEnoughBackTalk said:

You honestly can't compare the two as they perform different roles. Mortal savant performs as a frontliner, excepts its bad in that role due to annihilating speed and doesnt compensate at all. Swordfaire is nice, sure, but most units who go into savant are units like felix

Bold: Not even - Felix's spell list sucks big time (Thunder/Thoron is really bad, as that only gives you 12 casts), and considering that Felix is likely coming from Assassin or Swordmaster, that's a pretty hefty speed drop, both in terms of base and growth.

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This is all pretty route dependent, but I'd say the following are in the always recruit if able tier for me. 

Early Recruit Catherine - Probably the closest you can get to a Jeigen with those bases. She will fall off compared to others eventually thanks to having no good combat arts and a hard time doing , but is a godsend early on in Maddening and remains useful in late game even if she can't solo portions of maps by herself anymore.

Early Recruit Shamir - She falls off sooner than Catherine outside of mastering Sniper, but getting a brave art through your already unlocked class is still pretty great. 

Early Recruit Lysithea - If you want her to have any chance of surviving an attack, she needs the class unlock bases and you won't get those if you recruit her late. Getting her going on faith training early also helps. 

Felix - It doesn't matter when you recruit him, Felix performs well in general. Earlier is better to get him out of swords and into... anything else, but he'll still do well.

Petra - See above, though I consider her a bit weaker than Felix. A bit weaker than one of the best characters in the game isn't saying that much though. Has the potential to be strength screwed if you don't get her into axe based classes early. 

Ferdinand - If you want him to be the best dodge tank ever, he's better off early so you can get flying training and make him your dancer, but he'll perform well in most roles and gets some benefits from the auto-level growths.

Mercedes - It doesn't matter when you get her, she's still the best healer in the game with okay offensive magic. 

Hilda - She's not as available as the others, but Hilda's always been a powerhouse for me and her natural skills allow her to start flying pretty soon. 

Late Recruit Ingrid - Ingrid can be very good, but spending some time auto-leveling with the later recruit growths shores up her strength and defense weaknesses without sacrificing skill levels. 

Late Recruit Leonie - She can be recruited early without problems, but the nice auto-level stats compliment many of the classes she'd naturally go towards and free xp is free xp.

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