Best non lord units?

[ThatsEnoughBackTalk]

5 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Bold: Not even - Felix's spell list sucks big time (Thunder/Thoron is really bad, as that only gives you 12 casts), and considering that Felix is likely coming from Assassin or Swordmaster, that's a pretty hefty speed drop, both in terms of base and growth.

Thats my point. Felix and catherine only have one sword "master class" and it sucks.

[ThatsEnoughBackTalk]

10 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Do YOU think he's better than Petra? Because I don't. I also have issues making a case for him over Felix, let alone anyone in between those two. It doesn't help that he's hard to recruit, in case you didn't start with the Black Eagles.

You still havent explained anything

[Shadow Mir]

20 minutes ago, ThatsEnoughBackTalk said:

You still havent explained anything

Neither did you, last I checked. Look at the statement that started this debacle. Or rather, I'll bring it up for you:

13 hours ago, ThatsEnoughBackTalk said:

Gotta be honest here:

lorenz is not 19th, probably 12-15, ferdinand probably 3rd, ingrid 17th, bernadetta 8th

Not a single word of explanation to be found there.

[ThatsEnoughBackTalk]

3 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Neither did you, last I checked. Look at the statement that started this debacle. Or rather, I'll bring it up for you:

Not a single word of explanation to be found there.

Read further up the post. Thats where I explain ferdinand.

[Shadow Mir]

28 minutes ago, ThatsEnoughBackTalk said:

Read further up the post. Thats where I explain ferdinand.

Who is only one of the units I had issue with. Not so much as a peep in defense of Lorenz or explaining why Ingrid wasn't that good. In any instance, it's hard to properly gauge a unit's usefulness when it can vary due to whether or not they are part of your initial house, and if not, when they were recruited, among other factors. Would you still argue Ferdinand is a top 3 unit on AM or VW?

[TanatatKnight]

This is just my impression from reading about FE three houses discussion elsewhere. I won't be commenting on in-house exclusive units. (with the exception being the Church units.) Other units not mentioned here are due my ignorance in their usage.

Difficulty being Maddening for the most part. 

Strong both inhouse and out of house overall.

• Felix: Great growths and great major crest all help him to become a monster in combat. Can work in any physical classes. Most notable/mentioned around are Sniper, Grappler and War Master.
• Lysithea: Everything said have already been said but it has been agreed that her combat can be somewhat overrated in some playthroughs. Frail magic glass cannon with the highest warp range. Notable classes being Gremory and Dark Knight. (Dark Flier gets mentioned sometimes with her because flying is that good)
• Leonie: Known for being quite fast and decently tanky. Has the famed Point-Blank Volley although it does take a while to get A rank. Keep her away from mages at all cost as she can get one-shotted if not careful. Like Felix, she can be strong in any physical classes but Bow Knight is her most popular choice followed by Falcon Knight.
• Petra: Another speed demon like Leonie who traded her slight bulk and PBV for better weapon proficiencies, most notably in Axes and Flying meaning that she will have an easier time reaching Wyvern Lord and Alert Stance+. (Not that Leonie can't reach those though) Other classes she is known for is Assassin but any physical class will work with her especially those that allow her to dodge well.

Contested units for strong inhouse and out of house.

• Bernadetta: Her Vengeance build and the worth of her personal skill is starting to make rounds but there has been some pushback, especially those who dislike the glass cannon aspect of that particular build.
• Ferdinand: His personal skill being one of the best to keep at full HP for a Hit and Dodge bonus is really effective. Pair up with Swift Strikes, and you got one godly unit. However, some have problems in regard to his recruitment difficulty. As such, he is also a contender for being strong inhouse but require a bit of investment out of house. His two classes are Paladin for pure Swift Strike and Wyvern Lord for dodgetank.
• Sylvain: Ferdinand's competitor. Trades the ability for better hit and dodge for an easy recruitment at chapter 2 and the Lance of Ruin with female Byleth. Quite contested because of his poor dexterity and lacking the essential dodge that Ferdinand can provide by some. Often for many tier lists, you may find people who argue that "wherever Sylvain is, Ferdinand should be there as well." or vice-versa. Same classes as Ferdinand.
• Linhardt: His utility gets brought up highly in other places especially with his combination of Physic and Warp. However reading the room here, I can see that his average magic makes his healing not as potent as someone like Mercedes plus it's not often you need two Warp users. 

Strong inhouse, requires investment out of house.

• Annette: The rally queen, very valuable during any Blue Lions run especially since their route grants her the magic axe Crusher. She is seldom recommended for OOH since there are other units. Notable classes are Dark Flier, Gremory, Warlock and Wyvern Lord due to her Axe access (although it's somewhat considered a meme despite how good it can be).
• Ignatz: The most accurate hitter in Three Houses. Can support others with his rallies or debuff enemies with the Break Shot + Seal Strength combination. Is finding a lot more support for those doing GD inhouse runs, otherwise, he isn't as recommended out of house. His only notable class is Sniper for Hunter's Volley is required for him to accurately secure kills.
• Hilda: Only available to recruit immediately in Blue Lion and locked out until way later in the game with Black Eagles Silver Snow with a very small window to recruit her. Even then, her requirement to recruit can be a bit of a hassle and her performance OOH require a bit of work for her to catch up (especially if you are going to use her in BE SS for whatever reason). Her most notable flaw is her poor dexterity not working as well for an Axe user. That being said, she is still quite an offensive powerhouse if you use her in-house.

Strong out of house, requires investment in-house. (Probably the most controversial)

• Ingrid: Derided inhouse for her poor bases, and is often subjected to being benched, invested through stat boosters, or put as an adjutant until she gets better in some discussion involving BL maddening runs. OOH gives her enemy Pegasus growths which makes her far more effective when recruited at Chapter 6. Regardless of whether she is inhouse or not, she is still considered to be an effective dodge-tank especially against mages which is what allows her to stand out differently from the more offense-based Leonie and Petra, both of which have poor Res.
• Mercedes: The most potent healer out of all the healers but her effectiveness is being challenged a lot elsewhere. Her biggest problem (at least with Maddening) is her delayed Physic for Chapter 2 (D rank instead of D+ like Marianne and Linhardt). While this is obviously not an end-all be all once she gets Physic, the effectiveness of Restore and most notably Fortify is also challenged due to different situations for some when put against Marianne's Silence (and her reason spell containing Thoron) or Linhardt's Warp (alongside some discussing Excalibur vs Ragnarok). However, she is considered to be a good OOH healer for both GD and BE. For GD, Marianne is sometimes considered as dancer material and Mercedes makes a good replacement healer. For BE, she can join in healing alongside Linhardt (since his magic may not be as effective depending on his growth) or be Jeritza's adjutant in CF. Another thing to note with her is that she have an alternative build as a Magic based Sniper with the Magic Bow+ (once you get the Dark Merchant).

Church of Seiros group (a.k.a Catherine, Shamir, Seteth and Cyril)

• Catherine: very strong early game for BL or GD runs especially if you manage to recruit her in Chapter 4. She may or may not fall off depending on how she performs from there and what build you ultimately decide to go with her. Some rate her early game performance quite highly while some find her later game performance quite disappointing as well as her somewhat late recruitment in Silver Snow being a problem. (Although in her case, she is still useable) 
• Shamir: The premier Sniper available in all routes especially with how good Hunter's Volley is with only a few grinding investment. She only requires Death Blow and Hit+20 for her to be effective throughout the entire game. Although because of that, her build is quite limited to a degree and not everyone is on board with it just yet but it is growing.
• Seteth: The third force that joins the Mêlée à Trois in Swift Striker users discussion. Often considered to be inferior to the other two due to the later recruitment time, and a slightly less effective personal skill. Nevertheless, he is somewhat valued due to his good base when joined and requires only a little investment to get him rolling.
• Cyril: It's basically "dealing with bleh bases at Chapter 5 recruitment vs early C+ Point Blank Volley". Obviously, if Catherine is meh for Silver Snow, then Cyril is likely to be even worst especially since he scales with Commoner's growth. It's also worth noting that he can also learn Vengeance but this build is not as popular because of E rank lance but he can get there relatively quickly since lance is a boon for him. He is going to require some investment but some say that it only requires a few nudges for him to get going while others feel he is not worth it.

Ashen Wolves (minus Balthus) 😞

• Yuri: Lord-like growth. Most known for being the unit with the most Speed growth at 65% meaning he will always on average, have good speed but trade for having some really cumbersome banes which limits his final class options. The bane in flying in particular fuels some debates between his performance and Petra's.
• Constance: The premier black mage known for being the best Bolting user. Her dexterity can be a bit of an issue so some don't find her as reliable as Lysithea.
• Hapi: Mediocre growths but have a versatile spell list. Very effective when dealing with monsters or for debuffing certain units. Have other issues such as her neutral faith means she will take time to learn Physic and Warp and her authority weakness can be an issue (although Seiro Holy Monk is already good enough.)

That is all that I know for now. Just note that these are impressions so it's not completely accurate to the more specific discussions that they have.

Edited September 19, 2020 by TanatatKnight

[Anathaco]

24 minutes ago, TanatatKnight said:

Ashen Wolves (minus Balthus) 😞

• Yuri: Lord-like growth but trade for having some really cumbersome banes which limits his final class options.
• Constance: The premier black mage known for being the best Bolting user. Her dexterity can be a bit of an issue so some don't find her as reliable as Lysithea.
• Hapi: Mediocre growths but have a versatile spell list. Very effective when dealing with monsters or for debuffing certain units. Have other issues such as her neutral faith means she will take time to learn Physic and Warp and her authority weakness can be an issue (although Seiro Holy Monk is already good enough.)

RIP Balthus.

Actually I'd say he's worth considering- with his personal skill, he basically joins as a recruitable unit with the defences of Dedue and the offences of someone like Felix or Dimitri. He's an amazing asset in the early game, and I've found he still stays competitive even later on, with his high strength and easy access to Grappler and War Master. A personal skill that's basically a stronger version of master class skills (even if barely anybody uses defiants lol) is nothing to scoff at. Perhaps he's not as strong as some other suggestions like Felix, Jeritza, Ferdinand or Bernadetta, but I think his name is worth throwing into the ring. I'm curious to see what other people think.

Edited September 17, 2020 by Anathaco

[Barren]

I've once recruited Balthus during chapter 3. And during that time, his bow proficiency was at rank D (which he is bad at). So getting him to rank D+ was very doable and him getting Hit +20 is worth it if you want him on the front lines as a Hero (ironically), Grappler or War Master

[Shadow Mir]

7 hours ago, TanatatKnight said:

• Ferdinand: His personal skill being one of the best to keep at full HP for a Hit and Dodge bonus is really effective. Pair up with Swift Strikes, and you got one godly unit. However, some have problems in regard to his recruitment difficulty. (which is possible by chapter 6, at least for NG) As such, he is also a contender for being strong inhouse but require a bit of investment out of house. If NG+ is applied then, he's likely to remove the "contested" part. His two classes are Paladin for pure Swift Strike and Wyvern Lord for dodgetank.

Personally, I find the need for heavy armor to be a big setback, because only two characters can teach it, one of whom takes a while to show up, and as a result, odds are Ferdinand's going to be recruited late, if at all. The only other character who has this problem is Caspar, who at least requires Brawling, which Byleth can work on naturally (and has easy time leveling up).

13 hours ago, Graveless said:

Late Recruit Ingrid - Ingrid can be very good, but spending some time auto-leveling with the later recruit growths shores up her strength and defense weaknesses without sacrificing skill levels. 

I would beg to differ - I'd think late recruitment does her more harm than good, to be honest, because that means less time to train masteries, work on authority, and all that jazz.

[ThatsEnoughBackTalk]

8 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Who is only one of the units I had issue with. Not so much as a peep in defense of Lorenz or explaining why Ingrid wasn't that good. In any instance, it's hard to properly gauge a unit's usefulness when it can vary due to whether or not they are part of your initial house, and if not, when they were recruited, among other factors. Would you still argue Ferdinand is a top 3 unit on AM or VW?

Yes, yes I would

[Shadow Mir]

3 hours ago, ThatsEnoughBackTalk said:

Yes, yes I would

Well, I most definitely would not, because that's where his pain-in-the-ass recruitment condition, which I alluded to earlier, comes into play. And I don't think Ferdinand is so amazing as to warrant going out of my way to recruit him on those routes. On a similar note, I'd say Hilda would be much worse on Silver Snow relative to VW or AM due to her recruitment, and that Ashe and Lorenz would be worse out-of-house due to them leaving after the timeskip on routes other than CF..

Edited September 17, 2020 by Shadow Mir

[Barren]

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I would beg to differ - I'd think late recruitment does her more harm than good, to be honest, because that means less time to train masteries, work on authority, and all that jazz.

I think it depends on when you recruit them is what makes them viable to your team. For example, you can recruit Marianne between chapters 3 - 5 with her reason proficiency at rank D. That can be a good thing because from there you could get her reason to rank D+ pretty easily for her to go into the mage class and learn fiendish blow. Same with Ignatz except his axe would be at D rank and you can raise it to D+ rank faster so he can go into brigand and get death blow.

As far recruiting Ingrid mid to late game. There are up and downsides to it as Regnor explained. You can tutor her in authority up to rank D by the end of chapter 6 and then she can equip a flying battalion. Plus her sword rank would already be at C rank (or at least very close) anyways so she can always get her axe rank up as high as possible if need be. Especially if you want her to go into wyvern rider then falcon knight/wyvern lord. Not to mention that her being a pegasus knight already by chapter 6 means you don't have to waste a intermediate seal on her.

 

But yea, this also means that you have less time to train her and her stats might not be up to snuff. You could in theory though save the stat boosting items and use them for what she is lacking in

Edited September 17, 2020 by Barren

[Graveless]

5 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I would beg to differ - I'd think late recruitment does her more harm than good, to be honest, because that means less time to train masteries, work on authority, and all that jazz.

I just ran the numbers on average stats for her and forgot how much the wyvern rider unlock is needed. I still don't think that early recruit is the right call, instead something like chapter 7 or 8. 

The assumptions I ran with were: early and mid recruit go for 5 brigand/ 5 peg knight > wyvern rider > wyvern lord for classes while late does peg knight > 5 levels of brigand for death blow > falcon knight. 

Recruiting on chapter 7 compared to chapter 2 gives +1 hp, +2 spd, +2.5 luck, +3 res at level 30. She'd be missing out on the noble and fighter/soldier masteries, but I don't think those wind up being super important on her. 
Chapter 12 compared to 2 gives: -2 hp, -3 str, +3 dex, +4 spd, +1 def, +10 res at level 30. You'll still get darting blow, but death blow will be late. 

Getting authority to D isn't too bad in my experience, but not being able to unlock wyvern rider at 20 really winds up hurting her due to low average strength. 

 

[Dark Holy Elf]

  

On 9/16/2020 at 8:31 AM, SumG said:

I think those are the best four mages in the base game, but if we're including the DLC I think Dorothea and potentially Marianne fall off the list.  Dorothea has an amazing Reason list, but starting with a Faith bane hurts even if it eventually is a budding talent.  The fact that she also has poor magic growth (for a mage) really counteracts how great her spell list is.  Marianne not having a boon in reason also really hurts her, considering how poor faith magic is for attacking.  It's a doubly whammy with the reason list as well, considering how awkward it is to use given how many Ice-type spells she has (low hit%/high crit%).  She has a good Faith list (Silence is a nice utility spell as a bonus), but I think Mercedes just outpaces her as a pure healer.  I would definitely take Constance over both of them.  I would take Hapi over Dorothea, and potentially over Marianne as well.

I dunno. Constance has the same problems as Lysithea - no Physic and no 3-range spell. Bolting is cool, but her limited support list makes it less cool than it could be, since the linked attack bonuses are a big part of what makes those spells so appealing to me. She feels too much like a second Lysithea to me, and without Luna I feel she's largely a worse one. It's possible I'm underrating Bolting's offensive potential, though, especially if you go Warlock/Gremory for four shots of it.

Hapi only has 5% more mag growth than Dorothea (= 2 points at most), and starting with E faith + only being neutral means she isn't getting Physic any faster, and Warp is an incredible slog if you want that. She has to wait for B rank to get her 3-range spell, to boot, and never gets Meteor. Being reliant on dark magic for offence also basically locks her into Valkyrie at Advanced, which is a solid class but means she suffers if you want her to have more mobility (Dark Flier) or power (Warlock).

Both are decent enough, mind, but I found them a bit less to my taste than the mages already in the game.