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Graal

Question about 3h in Japanese (Doro Lin Supports)

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I remember someone somewhere once telling me that in Japanese it's "made clear" that Dorothea slept with, or kissed or something, a Noble to be enrolled at the Monastery. And I am curious if anyone knows more.

It would be in the B supports between Linhardt and Dorothea. In English it's a vague notion of getting a favor, which is how it's described in her C support with Manuela as well. Using connections.

The claim feels odd as the ultimate point of said chain (w/ Lin) was how Dorothea doesn't actually have anything to be ashamed of. And feels incongruous with how she's upset people know she's an orphan and really doesn't belong (in her view). Also just seems wrong for the character who is supposed to know better than trust some pervert's word he'll do right by her if she just gives up what he wants first. She's able to get gifts and favors just for existing after all so desperation shouldn't be an option either.

As you can tell I'm skeptical. Largely because the one claiming this never elaborated when I asked for proof and my experience in fandoms is when someone says "I'm right in Japanese" they're making it up; but also it never fit tonally which I don't think translation can change too much. Not to mention how it seems every other translation inaccuracy is well reported but this one is not (despite being a bigger deal than if Manuela discovered her talent or not).

But I figure I'd see if anyone knows better. Leif of Leinster on tumblr is taking a break and they've done the translations I've referenced in the past so I'm broadening the net.

If anyone can answer or tell me where I can look I'd very much appreciate it. 

Edited by Graal

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You can use this site to view Dorothea and Linhardt's Japanese supports (the language select is in the upper right corner), though you'll have to translate them into English yourself.

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Original text:

Quote
[教団兵]*1
おい、知ってるか?
ドロテアさんって、孤児だったらしいぜ。▼
[教団兵]
へえ。さる名高い貴族に取り入って、
修道院に入学したって噂もあったよな。▼

Translated text from the website @Lightchao42 linked to:

Quote

Church solder A: Hey, did you know Dorothea was an orphan?

Church solder B: I hear she buttered up some noble and he enrolled her in the academy...

The translated text is accurate to the original Japanese text. Slight mistake in the translated text on that site(corrected in the quote) but it doesn't affect what you're looking for.

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23 minutes ago, Lightchao42 said:

You can use this site to view Dorothea and Linhardt's Japanese supports (the language select is in the upper right corner), though you'll have to translate them into English yourself.

Thank you. Looking it over myself. Google translate, while imperfect, is doing a good job. Getting recognizable sentences that are of a kind to the English with no big deviations.

"incorporate into the aristocrats" in her B+ support seems to be to the critical phrase. If 'aristocrats' is indeed plural then it definite she's more guilty of sucking up and being accepted by them. Otherwise it comes down to if the verb has an ulterior meaning. Still the focus is on her being an orphan and unworthy to be around these rich, pedigree'd kids after that.

I don't think  に取り入って is an innuendo anyway. 

Since I do not know the language I use little tricks like breaking up the phrases into smaller bits to see what the 'components' are to infer what the meaning is and り入って is "to enter" which is a verb she's enacting and fits with the sucking up idea.

Hopefully someone who knows better arrives.

@Flying Shogi

Yep. Also looking at her own explanation on B+ since it's her "confession" moment.

EDIT: should post her whole line

私は自分のために、貴族に取り入って、 学校に来た。孤児だった私が、よ。
 
which means "I took in the aristocrats and came to school for myself. I was an orphan."
 
of a kind with "Selfish as I am, I curried favor with a noble so I could enroll here. An orphan like me, here. Crazy, right?"
Edited by Graal

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14 minutes ago, Graal said:

I don't think  に取り入って is an innuendo anyway.

Strictly from a definition standpoint, it's not. No clue on the connotation of the word though.

16 minutes ago, Graal said:

"Selfish as I am, I curried favor with a noble so I could enroll here. An orphan like me, here. Crazy, right?"

 

16 minutes ago, Graal said:

私は自分のために、貴族に取り入って、 学校に来た。孤児だった私が、よ。

Going off of this line alone, the English text gives the audience insight to her self reflection where she mentions being selfish whereas the Japanese text doesn't mention that and is more straight to the point but it does leave room for interpretation: "For the sake of the orphan that I was, I curried favor with a noble to enroll at the academy." Some creative liberties were taken to make it sound smooth in English but that's how the original text goes.

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1 hour ago, Flying Shogi said:

Strictly from a definition standpoint, it's not. No clue on the connotation of the word though.

 

Going off of this line alone, the English text gives the audience insight to her self reflection where she mentions being selfish whereas the Japanese text doesn't mention that and is more straight to the point but it does leave room for interpretation: "For the sake of the orphan that I was, I curried favor with a noble to enroll at the academy." Some creative liberties were taken to make it sound smooth in English but that's how the original text goes.

Very nice. Anyway not on me to prove there isn't  connotation anyway. Thank you for your help.

I always found the assumption Dorothea slept with some sleazy noble because of a possible innuendo in English to be a little small-minded. I mean they give her carte blanche to lecture someone like Sylvain on love and commitment after all, and stress that she's allergic to being treated as a casual fling in at least half her supports. It would be a little incongruous. 

Edited by Graal

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10 hours ago, Graal said:

取り入って

"curried favour" is a pretty good translation for this. Another would be "ingratiate". Either way, sexual favours could in theory count as connotations from this word, (because she could have "ingratiated" herself by any means) but it'd be reaching, especially without further evidence. If I didn't know anything else about Dorothea, and heard this line, I'd think she was flattering or flirting with this noble, at most mildly leading him on - I wouldn't normally come to the conclusion that she had done anything with this guy. 

As for the soldier, I think the point of the gossip is that she didn't come to Garreg Mach based on merit, but on her wiles/charm - i.e. she's undeserving, and perhaps has gotten her way by flirting. But again, you wouldn't read his line as accusing her of trading in sexual favours. 

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2 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

"curried favour" is a pretty good translation for this. Another would be "ingratiate".

"Ingratiate" was the word that I was looking for. TBH, I haven't come across the term "to curry favor" until I saw the English text. 

2 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Either way, sexual favours could in theory count as connotations from this word, (because she could have "ingratiated" herself by any means) but it'd be reaching, especially without further evidence. If I didn't know anything else about Dorothea, and heard this line, I'd think she was flattering or flirting with this noble, at most mildly leading him on - I wouldn't normally come to the conclusion that she had done anything with this guy. 

As for the soldier, I think the point of the gossip is that she didn't come to Garreg Mach based on merit, but on her wiles/charm - i.e. she's undeserving, and perhaps has gotten her way by flirting. But again, you wouldn't read his line as accusing her of trading in sexual favours. 

Agreed on all accounts. The word/term is too broad to gleam any specific details but it does show that she's witty and knows how to use her charms to her advantage. 

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Three Houses is so unwilling to talk about sex directly that it's hard to say for sure, so there's room for the player to believe what they want. I find the shame Dorothea expresses in her Linhardt support is congruent with a person who probably has traded some manner of sexual favour to get where she is, moreso than someone who just flirted. It fits her self-hatred that she did something that society considers wrong in order to get to Garreg Mach. But I respect interpreting differently.

I will say that regardless of the truth Dorothea absolutely deserves our sympathy for her actions. She came from utter poverty and was placed in an environment which was clearly dangerous and exploitative (see various supports), and used her talents to try to find a way out, and reach financial stability. Looking down on her for that comes across as incredibly priveleged. It's easy to say moralizing things like "she shouldn't lecture Sylvain if she's had loveless sex for personal gain herself" but that completely ignores the social conditions outside her control which made her feel this was her only good option. Many people in Dorothea's position have had to make similar choices in our own world, and we should not have contempt for them out of some misplaced overvaluation of a woman's "purity".

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On 9/17/2020 at 5:21 AM, haarhaarhaar said:

"curried favour" is a pretty good translation for this. Another would be "ingratiate". Either way, sexual favours could in theory count as connotations from this word, (because she could have "ingratiated" herself by any means) but it'd be reaching, especially without further evidence. If I didn't know anything else about Dorothea, and heard this line, I'd think she was flattering or flirting with this noble, at most mildly leading him on - I wouldn't normally come to the conclusion that she had done anything with this guy. 

As for the soldier, I think the point of the gossip is that she didn't come to Garreg Mach based on merit, but on her wiles/charm - i.e. she's undeserving, and perhaps has gotten her way by flirting. But again, you wouldn't read his line as accusing her of trading in sexual favours. 

That is how Dorothea interprets the gossip as well. That she's in way over her head and fundamentally just of a lower class despite it all. If it is an innuendo then nobody in game seems to get it. And we have good reason from her other support chains, and this one, to disregard even a slim possibility (in my opinion).

 

14 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Three Houses is so unwilling to talk about sex directly that it's hard to say for sure, so there's room for the player to believe what they want. I find the shame Dorothea expresses in her Linhardt support is congruent with a person who probably has traded some manner of sexual favour to get where she is, moreso than someone who just flirted. It fits her self-hatred that she did something that society considers wrong in order to get to Garreg Mach. But I respect interpreting differently.

I will say that regardless of the truth Dorothea absolutely deserves our sympathy for her actions. She came from utter poverty and was placed in an environment which was clearly dangerous and exploitative (see various supports), and used her talents to try to find a way out, and reach financial stability. Looking down on her for that comes across as incredibly priveleged. It's easy to say moralizing things like "she shouldn't lecture Sylvain if she's had loveless sex for personal gain herself" but that completely ignores the social conditions outside her control which made her feel this was her only good option. Many people in Dorothea's position have had to make similar choices in our own world, and we should not have contempt for them out of some misplaced overvaluation of a woman's "purity".

I don't disagree but it feels wrong for the character to me because of lines the one I quote below being her "formative experience." And it feels a little insane she'd need to sleep with someone just to get what sounds like a recommendation. Or that she'd be willing to instead of simply looking for another one. This is a girl willing to turn down marriage offers from distant admirers and scoundrels after all. Turning down what she most wants and would open more doors for her; and is attending school to get. She constantly speaks ill of those who try to bribe her affections, and not just as a lowly act but a fruitless one.

I find this line the most telling:

Dorothea: He'd had a child with a maid, but the child didn't have a Crest... So he threw them both away. Those were his very words. I can't prove that he really was my father, but... I suppose it doesn't matter. He didn't know who I was, and when he flirted with me, my feelings were something beyond fury. I was dumbfounded. In truth, I felt that way about all of the nobles who flocked around me, yet would just as easily have tossed me away should it better suit them. 

It's clear she learned from her own deductions (you could even say this is a prejudice she has, since it's tied to her dislike of Nobles) and the mistakes of others than firsthand experience. And I tend to feel we should prioritize what is definite over what is very tenuous. She has a lot of lines like the above, and they're always so much more important and emphatic than a vague innuendo, so it's clear the writers want us to see her this way. And they do nothing to subvert these expectations.

In fact, they even bring along Yuri to all but tell the player that Dorothea is a good wholesome girl. That's probably not an accident. She wasn't that popular in Japan, probably because she's essentially an idol who is dating multiple men, so this was decided as the final statement on her. Because it's an A support with the main dlc character. And he's a guy who knows secrets and has a cynical outlook. His unvarnished praise and comparative shame toward Dorothea is pretty serious.

Spoilering because I wrote too much but more of a direct answer is here:

Spoiler

It's less that I feel she'd be hypocritical to admonish casual relationships if she'd had one but more that the righteous indignation the writers give her is more tonally consistent with someone who resisted said temptation. Which she clearly had many times just from her supports. Feels like those anecdotes lose their meaning otherwise. And if that was the intention then that conflict should be better explored than a support where she's worried people know she's an unwanted foundling.

IMO if they wanted to challenge overemphasis on purity it's a mistake to have done it this way. So I don't think it was their aim. They want Dorothea to be quite justified in her takedowns of false suitors, and they want her to be even overzealous in her worldview by false applying it to Ferdinand. This makes sense for someone suspicious, protective of herself, and risk averse. And the formative motive we're given for this is the excerpt from Hanneman B quoted above. 

If it was instead the result of being "used" I'd imagine they make that quite clear but they'd likely soften Dorothea's personality to make it very sympathetic and unjust for the kind of gamer most likely to judge her for it. They'd want her transparently acting out of regret and shame. But that's just what I think. I don't think they gave us that and what elements are shared are not immediately obvious. They're not in her outward behavior but internal factors to explain that behavior.

 

Edited by Graal

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8 hours ago, Graal said:

I don't disagree but it feels wrong for the character to me because of lines the one I quote below being her "formative experience." And it feels a little insane she'd need to sleep with someone just to get what sounds like a recommendation.

It's hardly insane. We know she "buttered up" a noble. That could be anywhere from flirting to sex or something in between. Whatever it is, she felt she needed to do it, and she seems hurt by others suspecting it, so it's clear that she at least feels some shame for it. I don't think her having contempt for the nobles who propositioned her, or having a moral code disapproving of them, says anything about what she did or didn't do. Their behaviour is not analogous to hers (they are immensely privileged, she is not). Her actions don't invalidate her beliefs of what's right and wrong.

8 hours ago, Graal said:

In fact, they even bring along Yuri to all but tell the player that Dorothea is a good wholesome girl. That's probably not an accident. She wasn't that popular in Japan, probably because she's essentially an idol who is dating multiple men

Yeah, Japan puts more emphasis on female virginity/purity and I've heard that floated as a reason that Dorothea is less popular there (although it's hard to confirm for sure). If true, it doesn't reflect very well on the Japanese fanbase IMO.

Even your own words I quoted here reveal how problematic those views are. Is Dorothea less "good" and "wholesome" if she felt pressured into using her sexuality to escape from poverty? I certainly don't think so. And I really hope you aren't arguing this from the perspective of just wanting to believe she's "wholesome" yourself.

I think it's also worth considering that even if Dorothea had traded sexual favours to get where he is, the game would likely want to be very circumspect about this fact, precisely because of the negative reaction this knowledge would generate from parts of the fanbase. In-universe, Dorothea herself would also want to be circumspect about it, if the mores surrounding such things in any way resemble those of our world. So for multiple reasons it's not surprising that she doesn't talk openly about it, even before accounting for the fact that 3H has a tendency to avoid talking about sexual matters in general.

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