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New Heroes: Despair and Hope


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1 hour ago, Othin said:

All the examples I can think of for that are banner units, not GHBs.

You don't have to like the explanation, but that doesn't make it wrong.

Arvis never fights us using Recover Ring.

Narcian never fights us using an axe.

Linus never fights us using Basilikos.

Aversa never fights us using Aversa's Night.

 

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6 hours ago, Kaden said:

Incoming RD Shinon with Silencer.

What do you mean? He's right there and wearing a mask.

Anyway, I did. Not even sure how I did since he's right above Finn when sorting the list by descending speed and with only lance cavalry on FEH's gamepedia. I also screwed up the stat comparison since for some reason, I saw 40 HP for Petrine instead of 42.

I know you're probably joking, but let's address it anyway, do you really think we'll get Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn versions of all the characters? Well they gave us Valentian versions of the pegasus sisters so I guess that's possible, but they really need to step up their game when it comes to Tellius characters if they're expecting to give us like 120+ of them.  And Haar despite being classed as a Radiant Dawn unit had is Path of Radiance map for his grand hero battle. So I think with some exceptions like Ike and Sothe, it's likely that any of these Tellius characters are largely representing both games even if they come on game specific banners and are categorized into games for the purpose of gameplay.

8 hours ago, Tybrosion said:

A Slaying Bow+ or Short Bow+, while also being a green bow of course.

I guess Silencer, but that isn’t a Prf even though Shinon made it and that it’s straight up called “Shinon’s Bow” in Japanese.

Yeah, I didn't literally mean a prf ranked bow, but one that is associated with him and even bears his name. For all the characters they've made up  "_____'s weapon"s for it'd a bit weird they ignore one of the few canon ones (well one of the few canon ones outside of Awakening's lord cameo weapons). Wonder if they'll give Rolf Rolf's Bow.

 

4 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

PoR Double Bow was exclusive to Snipers, Astrid can have it three years later, except then she'd come with Gen 1 BST too because RD Astrid is bad.

 

Oi. Don't you be insulting my Radiant Dawn Astrid. I've para blossomed that beast to the stat cap in every stat by level 14 silver knight.

4 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

She does come with an Iron Longbow in her RD version, and Longbows of Iron/Steel/Silver qualities is unique to RD. You could toss her a Silver Longbow or "Damiell Longbow" to throw her family's name on it on her, that'd be sufficiently distinctive.

I'd have liked it if Shinon had come with one of the higher-end RD crossbows- Taksh, Aqqar, or Arbalest, but that'd be a wee too much effort for the animations deviating from a standard bow for a non-spectacular weapon

Yeah they can of course make up a prf for Astrid (or just throw on a slaying bow or brave bow or something and make her underwhelming), but they really don't have to. Just annoys me (far more than it should) that they ignore actual existing weapons in favor of making up their own. Mechanically there'd be no difference if Shinon's double bow as it exists now was called Silencer of Shinon's Bow, though obviously the fact that it has close counter is a reference to the Double Bow's 1-2 range, but with all the other random effects we've seen that wouldn't be the weirdest thing.

4 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I'd have liked it if Shinon had come with one of the higher-end RD crossbows- Taksh, Aqqar, or Arbalest, but that'd be a wee too much effort for the animations deviating from a standard bow for a non-spectacular weapon

Speaking of crossbows, is the "Minor bosses you'd like to see" thread still active. I'd like to nominate Goran as our crossbow wielder, that random ass general working for Micaiah in the bridge crossing chapter.

3 hours ago, Tybrosion said:

Yeah, assuming that Nolan ever gets added at all the fact that Tarvos (along with the other two weapons) do not exist at all in the Japanese version doesn't end up leading IS to deny Nolan a Prf. I could honestly see them doing just that if Travant is anything to go by.

I could see it happening less as of "they decide to do it" and more of a "they didn't know these things existed at all". Like think about it, Raidant Dawn was released over ten years ago, how many of the staff who worked on it are working on Heroes today? And then, of those, how many of them ever were involved enough to know what changes the overseas localisations made to the game. And then, on top of that, how many of them would bother to retain this information a decade later? It's obvious they go back and check source material when designing units for Heroes, but naturally they're only really going to be checking the Japanese sources. Why should they care at all what the translations did? That's for the people localizing heroes to care about.

Though if Nolan and co do get their prf weapons, then fingers crossed we get Shanty Pete eventually.

2 hours ago, Othin said:

Travant's weapon is probably being saved to get released on the boss who actually uses it when we fight them... eventually.

 

They don't really need to save Travant's weapon for later. They easily could have given Travant Gungnir and later given Arione Draconic Gungnir or something. There's massive precedent for splitting up the holy weapons like that. I think the more likely explaantion is that they didn't want to give a free unit a really good prf. Which would mean they could either make an underwhelming Gungnir or no Gungnir at all. Either that or they plan to give us a legendary Travant somewhere down the line.

Edited by Jotari
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1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I know you're probably joking, but let's address it anyway, do you really think we'll get Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn versions of all the characters? Well they gave us Valentian versions of the pegasus sisters so I guess that's possible, but they really need to step up their game when it comes to Tellius characters if they're expecting to give us like 120+ of them.  And Haar despite being classed as a Radiant Dawn unit had is Path of Radiance map for his grand hero battle. So I think with some exceptions like Ike and Sothe, it's likely that any of these Tellius characters are largely representing both games even if they come on game specific banners and are categorized into games for the purpose of gameplay.

My guess is a combination of popularity and noticeable design differences. Like PoR Sothe probably isn't popular enough to ever get in, even if he is adorable and a significantly different design, and Shinon and probably Haar don't have enough design differences to really warrant an alt even if they are fairly popular. With Catria, Ike, and potential candidates, such as Hardin, it seems fully possible for someone to like one version and not the other, so it seems like they'd be remiss in not adding them barring extreme obscurity of one version. Now the question is, will we get short hair Lucia or long hair Lucia?

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Either that or they plan to give us a legendary Travant somewhere down the line.

His LHB could be a desert. Please don't toy with my emotions like that.

Edited by bottlegnomes
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11 hours ago, bottlegnomes said:

My guess is a combination of popularity and noticeable design differences. Like PoR Sothe probably isn't popular enough to ever get in, even if he is adorable and a significantly different design, and Shinon and probably Haar don't have enough design differences to really warrant an alt even if they are fairly popular. With Catria, Ike, and potential candidates, such as Hardin, it seems fully possible for someone to like one version and not the other, so it seems like they'd be remiss in not adding them barring extreme obscurity of one version. Now the question is, will we get short hair Lucia or long hair Lucia?

His LHB could be a desert. Please don't toy with my emotions like that.

I certainly hope we get Hardin some day, but in terms of game origin Emperor Hardin and Paladin Hardin would both just be classed as from "Marth's Game". There is no Shadow Dragon Marth and Mystery Marth. It's just a Marth icon. Which makes it honestly a bit strange that they did decide to split Tellius into both Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn. Tellius and Elibe at least have large enough distinct casts in their respective games to justify being split, but like 90% of the Radiant Dawn cast debuted in Path of Radiance first. In fact if we include the characters added in by Mystery of the Emblem and Archanea Saga, I'd say Mystery of the Emblem has more unique characters compared to it's predecessor than Radiant Dawn does.

In regards to potential alts I could see us giving a Radiant Dawn Mist, given we just have Staff Infantry Mist now while Horse Mist, potentially using Florete, is also pretty associated with her.

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1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I certainly hope we get Hardin some day, but in terms of game origin Emperor Hardin and Paladin Hardin would both just be classed as from "Marth's Game". There is no Shadow Dragon Marth and Mystery Marth. It's just a Marth icon. Which makes it honestly a bit strange that they did decide to split Tellius into both Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn. Tellius and Elibe at least have large enough distinct casts in their respective games to justify being split, but like 90% of the Radiant Dawn cast debuted in Path of Radiance first. In fact if we include the characters added in by Mystery of the Emblem and Archanea Saga, I'd say Mystery of the Emblem has more unique characters compared to it's predecessor than Radiant Dawn does.

In regards to potential alts I could see us giving a Radiant Dawn Mist, given we just have Staff Infantry Mist now while Horse Mist, potentially using Florete, is also pretty associated with her.

Yeah, that is a weird decision in retrospect. I guess their biggest reason was probably that FE3 has a book 1 remake of FE1 while the Tellius games are only available as two independent games? I don't see that holding them back from making a Hardin alt given how distinctive they are. Everyone forgets that the Grimas available in the game are actually referred to as Robin, and one even debuted alongside Hardin in the first Fallen Heroes. So adding good Hardin wouldn't really be any different than having Robin/Fallen Robin (Grima) or Delthea/Fallen Delthea, etc. Arvis, Travant, and any other FE4 gen 1&2 characters would be in the same boat. Finn at least had the out of being in FE5.

Mist was certainly one that came to mind since she's a cute girl, I think fairly popular, and has both a significant number of design and gameplay differences (well, pre-promo in PoR). I think the biggest knock against her would be that her vanilla PoR form in FEH is so forgettable that it might've actually hurt her popularity. Actually, a duo of RD Mist and Boyd would be pretty cute.

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16 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Actually, a duo of RD Mist and Boyd would be pretty cute.

Provided the unit was an Axe Cav. Mist, on a horse, shoves Boyd into the air straight at the enemy's face axe ready to maul. Because she could shove him in PoR in during Chapter 17, even on a horse which can't shove in actual gameplay.

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20 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Provided the unit was an Axe Cav. Mist, on a horse, shoves Boyd into the air straight at the enemy's face axe ready to maul. Because she could shove him in PoR in during Chapter 17, even on a horse which can't shove in actual gameplay.

I'd whale for this. Ball's in your court, IS.

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I want a Radiant Dawn Mist with Florete and art not drawn by Miwabe Sakura. Yes, Sakura has improved a lot, but all her characters still look too moe. I'd love to get an alt of Mist that is drawn by Senri Kita or Wada Sachiko someday. Or, you know, at least someone who doesn't make their characters look all moe.

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11 minutes ago, Mysterique Sign said:

Kinda surprised they didn't give Ilyana Rexbolt considering she's the only one who can use it. Maybe she'll get it as a Refine

That is going to take a while, probably at least 2 or 3 years later.

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13 minutes ago, XRay said:

That is going to take a while, probably at least 2 or 3 years later.

Currently, there are 33 demotes from Book 2 and on: Soleil, Sothe, L'Arachel, Morgan M, Nanna, Shigure, Ares, Legault, Libra, Silvia, Silas, Reyson, Thea, Mordecai, Brady, Mercedes, Norne, Bantu, Python, Valbar, Tethys, Ross, Echidna, Chad, Tania, Altena, Rath, Ferdinand, Forrest, Mustafa, Emmeryn, Lena, and Ilyana. If they skip the 5 healers and 3 dancers and average about 1 per month of the others, that'd take about 25 months from whenever they start giving refines to Book 2 demotes. So if they start that in early 2021, Ilyana could get her refine in early 2023.

That's about the soonest I'd expect. Could easily take longer.

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8 hours ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

Everyone talking about a second version of Mist when we still don't even have a single version of several other Tellius characters. 😛

Third version. She has a Valentine's alt (and is the only version of Mist I have. 😞 )

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9 hours ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

Everyone talking about a second version of Mist when we still don't even have a single version of several other Tellius characters. 😛

Tellius is in need of as many new characters as it can get, but I think she's a special case because she's a significant character with such a different side to her that hasn't really been represented in Heroes yet.

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10 hours ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

Everyone talking about a second version of Mist when we still don't even have a single version of several other Tellius characters. 😛

Are the two even relevant to each other? A third Mist would make no impact on wether or not other characters get in or not. A third Mist would be taking a theoretical Makalov spot just as much as Leila would have. 

 

I’m all for more Tellius, but we don’t really have a lot of say in what gets cooked up at IS apart from cyl votes, so we can’t ever know if stuff got scrapped in favour of other stuff. We just get what gets released, and until that time we just have to be patient and deal with it. Speak with our wallets. If people want other stuff than a third Mist, don’t summon or spend on the banner. 

 

 

 

I’m Glad Jill is here now and I am looking forward to when Zihark gets released. Until then I’ll be excited about stuff that gets released, be it because of fodder, art, voice or whatever ^^

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Speaking of Jill, I'm slightly disappointed Mist didn't come with the Laguz Guard. B!Ike got the Beorc Guard, or Beorc Blessing as they called it. And sure it in no way resembled what the Beorc Guard actually does in Path of Radiance (mainly I say because it debuted before beasts were a thing), but still, it did give me a bit of an expectations that Jill would have gotten the Laguz Guard. And just in addition I'd kind of like more unique skills focused than unique weapons.

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5 minutes ago, Vicious Sal said:

Are the two even relevant to each other? A third Mist would make no impact on wether or not other characters get in or not. A third Mist would be taking a theoretical Makalov spot just as much as Leila would have. 

I don't understand what you mean. Makalov is a character like any other, after all. Leila took a spot that could have gone to a new playable FE7 character, and RD Mist on a New Heroes banner would take a spot that could otherwise have gone to a new playable FE10 character - it's just a question of if those are worthwhile trades.

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6 hours ago, Othin said:

I don't understand what you mean. Makalov is a character like any other, after all. Leila took a spot that could have gone to a new playable FE7 character, and RD Mist on a New Heroes banner would take a spot that could otherwise have gone to a new playable FE10 character - it's just a question of if those are worthwhile trades.

My point is Leila didn't take any spot from another character. Neither would a third Mist take any other characters spot. Characters not in the game are not "entitled" to any specific release spot unless previously stated otherwise. 

 

Thrasir and Hell switched places on the upcoming L/M banners, they took each others spot. But for the new heroes banner, Jill did not take Makalov's spot, neither did any other characters. Leila also did not take Makalov's spot. The entire concept of "spots" that characters deserve or are entitled to does not exist unless IS announces a banner and later changes the units released on the banner. The closest we got to this was Tanya and Peony, where the FEH channel had art of the banner featuring Tanya and later in the video replaced her with Peony. Tanya was however still released, but as a demote.

People can feel like a unit is getting robbed when Mist gets a second Alt before a new hero is introduced, but that's an emotion, and has nothing to do with entitlement or being deserving of. 

The only thing Fire Emblem characters with a unique portrait and at least a small amount of importance deserve is eventually being in Feh, since they are Fire emblem characters. This baseline requirement is applicable to all characters in FE, so it is not relevant for the topic at hand. Every FE character deserves to be in FE, but not one character deserves a specific spot on a specific banner. 

It's kind of the same when two units share a focus of the same colour. People almost always say "this could have been Unit X if unit X and Y did not share the same colour", but that is statistically untrue. Since units are determined beforehand and then the orbs are coloured in, it pretty much means there is no difference between a unit colour sharing vs not colour sharing.  If it would not have been Unit X, then the result would have landed somewhere else in the pool regardless of Unit Y colour sharing or not. 

 

I am still all for more unique characters being added to Feh, and I am still missing some favourites, but I am not going to be annoyed when a banner is released just because it didn't feature my most valued characters. Which tends to happen quite regularly, though less pronounced on the forums now that Ana's gone to be fair. It just seems so silly to me that people are talking about their favourites being "robbed" of a place when this is not actually the case.

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6 minutes ago, Vicious Sal said:

My point is Leila didn't take any spot from another character. Neither would a third Mist take any other characters spot. Characters not in the game are not "entitled" to any specific release spot unless previously stated otherwise. 

 

Thrasir and Hell switched places on the upcoming L/M banners, they took each others spot. But for the new heroes banner, Jill did not take Makalov's spot, neither did any other characters. Leila also did not take Makalov's spot. The entire concept of "spots" that characters deserve or are entitled to does not exist unless IS announces a banner and later changes the units released on the banner. The closest we got to this was Tanya and Peony, where the FEH channel had art of the banner featuring Tanya and later in the video replaced her with Peony. Tanya was however still released, but as a demote.

People can feel like a unit is getting robbed when Mist gets a second Alt before a new hero is introduced, but that's an emotion, and has nothing to do with entitlement or being deserving of. 

The only thing Fire Emblem characters with a unique portrait and at least a small amount of importance deserve is eventually being in Feh, since they are Fire emblem characters. This baseline requirement is applicable to all characters in FE, so it is not relevant for the topic at hand. Every FE character deserves to be in FE, but not one character deserves a specific spot on a specific banner. 

It's kind of the same when two units share a focus of the same colour. People almost always say "this could have been Unit X if unit X and Y did not share the same colour", but that is statistically untrue. Since units are determined beforehand and then the orbs are coloured in, it pretty much means there is no difference between a unit colour sharing vs not colour sharing.  If it would not have been Unit X, then the result would have landed somewhere else in the pool regardless of Unit Y colour sharing or not. 

 

I am still all for more unique characters being added to Feh, and I am still missing some favourites, but I am not going to be annoyed when a banner is released just because it didn't feature my most valued characters. Which tends to happen quite regularly, though less pronounced on the forums now that Ana's gone to be fair. It just seems so silly to me that people are talking about their favourites being "robbed" of a place when this is not actually the case.

Leila didn't take a spot from a specific other character, but she did take a spot that, if she were not there, would have gone to some other character.

Throughout Books 3 and 4, the standard for New Heroes banners has been for them to add 5 units from their game: 4 in the regular summoning pool and 1 as a grail unit. (Some later Book 3 banners included a 6th unit, but Book 4 has been consistent about 5, even for the FE5 and FE13 banners that featured a fairy alongside those 5.) Whatever units they pick for those slots are taking the place of any other possibilities. We can't be sure what those other possible picks would be, but the fact is that each banner only adds a certain number of units and they choose how to allocate them.

If this FE9 banner had included FE9 Valkyrie Mist, it would have had one fewer of the other units it included, and so Mist would have taken their spot. We would never know sure sure which unit had been bumped off the banner as a result, but the fact is that some unit would have been, and IS would know which other character had been the closest to being considered but had been passed up. And maybe that character would get featured on a later banner, but if so they would be bumping some other character off that banner, and so forth. The result is, however many units are "ahead in line" of whatever unit you have in mind for adding later, that change would increase that number by 1, potentially delaying them by a year or so. Or, if the banner they would have been bumped off of would have been their last shot before the game ends, meaning they never get added at all.

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21 minutes ago, Othin said:

Leila didn't take a spot from a specific other character, but she did take a spot that, if she were not there, would have gone to some other character.

Throughout Books 3 and 4, the standard for New Heroes banners has been for them to add 5 units from their game: 4 in the regular summoning pool and 1 as a grail unit. (Some later Book 3 banners included a 6th unit, but Book 4 has been consistent about 5, even for the FE5 and FE13 banners that featured a fairy alongside those 5.) Whatever units they pick for those slots are taking the place of any other possibilities. We can't be sure what those other possible picks would be, but the fact is that each banner only adds a certain number of units and they choose how to allocate them.

If this FE9 banner had included FE9 Valkyrie Mist, it would have had one fewer of the other units it included, and so Mist would have taken their spot. We would never know sure sure which unit had been bumped off the banner as a result, but the fact is that some unit would have been, and IS would know which other character had been the closest to being considered but had been passed up. And maybe that character would get featured on a later banner, but if so they would be bumping some other character off that banner, and so forth. The result is, however many units are "ahead in line" of whatever unit you have in mind for adding later, that change would increase that number by 1, potentially delaying them by a year or so. Or, if the banner they would have been bumped off of would have been their last shot before the game ends, meaning they never get added at all.

But that's the point. If someone other than Leila was in development, that unit would not be taking Leila's spot. Since Leila was not in development. Even if she was, unless there was an aforementioned announcement, we would not know that Leila would have been pushed back. 

If Mist had been on the banner, another unit would not have been in development, and thus, no "spot" would have been taken. So there would be no other unit to bump of the banner. It is true that it would take longer for every unique character to get in since development would take longer, but it does not mean a reserved seat was snubbed away and Mist took someone's place. Since we know banners start around 6 months before the reveal, and we seem to be getting a banner for every game pretty much in a year, there is not a significant chance that two banners from the same game are in development and they are switching units around. 
IS decides what gets made and though I like more unique characters added, a unit can't take a spot from a different unit if that unit is not in development.

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8 minutes ago, Vicious Sal said:

But that's the point. If someone other than Leila was in development, that unit would not be taking Leila's spot. Since Leila was not in development. Even if she was, unless there was an aforementioned announcement, we would not know that Leila would have been pushed back. 

If Mist had been on the banner, another unit would not have been in development, and thus, no "spot" would have been taken. So there would be no other unit to bump of the banner. It is true that it would take longer for every unique character to get in since development would take longer, but it does not mean a reserved seat was snubbed away and Mist took someone's place. Since we know banners start around 6 months before the reveal, and we seem to be getting a banner for every game pretty much in a year, there is not a significant chance that two banners from the same game are in development and they are switching units around. 
IS decides what gets made and though I like more unique characters added, a unit can't take a spot from a different unit if that unit is not in development.

"It doesn't count unless they were actually in development" is an arbitrary and nonsensical limitation you made up.

They picked five FE7 units to develop for release in February. If they hadn't picked Leila to be on that list, they would have picked someone else. That is what "taking someone else's spot" means. The fact that the decision was made 6 or so months in advance is irrelevant. All that matters is that at a certain point, they made that decision.

At the time they made that decision, the next FE7 banner was presumably not in development, if it's even started development by now. But they did most likely have some ideas for what that next FE7 banner might look like. They've probably got lots of rough ideas for banners like two years away or more, 6 months is just the point where they have to finalize their picks.

Edited by Othin
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1 minute ago, Othin said:

"It doesn't count unless they were actually in development" is an arbitrary and nonsensical limitation you made up.

They picked five FE7 units to develop for release in February. If they hadn't picked Leila to be on that list, they would have picked someone else. That is what "taking someone else's spot" means. The fact that the decision was made 6 or so months in advance is irrelevant. All that matters is that at a certain point, they made that decision.

My entire point was about people feeling as if their posted wanted character was being cheated out of a spot or snubbed from being in the game. My entire premise has been about a unit being in development and then being actively pushed back in favour of someone else. That's what I mean with a spot being taken and have been talking about the entire time. It's a Y instead of X even though we were working on X / we announced X already. When deciding on what characters to develop for a new banner, there is no character actively being pushed back since there is no development started yet.

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1 minute ago, Vicious Sal said:

My entire point was about people feeling as if their posted wanted character was being cheated out of a spot or snubbed from being in the game. My entire premise has been about a unit being in development and then being actively pushed back in favour of someone else. That's what I mean with a spot being taken and have been talking about the entire time. It's a Y instead of X even though we were working on X / we announced X already. When deciding on what characters to develop for a new banner, there is no character actively being pushed back since there is no development started yet.

Who said anything about assuming a unit was actually in development, rather than being frustrated that they never started development?

Characters don't have to be in development to be pushed back. I edited in a note to my previous post about this:

At the time they made that decision, the next FE7 banner was presumably not in development, if it's even started development by now. But they did most likely have some ideas for what that next FE7 banner might look like. They've probably got lots of rough ideas for banners like two years away or more, 6 months is just the point where they have to finalize their picks.

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