Idea: Final Fantasy Warriors

[Lord_Brand]

I know Vivi is popular enough that he'd be sure to get in, and it'd be cool if Black Waltz No. 3 was his villainous rival.

[𝐅𝐞𝐧𝐫𝐢𝐞𝐥]

On 9/28/2020 at 3:37 PM, Lord_Brand said:

Koei's Musou series has crossed over with many franchises over the year: Gundam, One Piece, Persona, Dragon Quest, Zelda, and Fire Emblem. But one obvious candidate has yet to be given the Musou treatment: Final Fantasy, the most famous JRPG series of all time. With dozens of games and a buttload of characters to offer, it's a wonder a Musou title for Final Fantasy hasn't happened yet.

For those unfamiliar with the Dynasty Warriors/Musou series, the basic premise is that you play as warriors who are capable of taking on armies of enemy units (hence Musou, meaning "unmatched") using a variety of combo attacks and flashy special moves. Many Musou games revolve around capturing enemy keeps or completing other objectives such as defeating a certain number of enemies or defeating key enemy units. Gameplay is fairly simple; you move your warrior around the battlefield and attack using two buttons, one for standard combos and one for strong attacks. In addition, you have a meter that fills as you defeat foes or pickup certain items. When that meter is full, you can unleash a special attack that wipes out large numbers of enemies, known informally as a Musou attack. In addition to combo attacks and the special attack meter, Warriors will sometimes have unique gimmicks that help them stand apart from the crowd, such as additional meters that fill when using certain kinds of attack which in turn power unique moves, or some kind of consumable yet replenishable resource that can be spent to power up strong attacks.

This gameplay has been successfully applied to a variety of franchises, and it only seems fitting that Final Fantasy gets its turn. In this topic, we discuss what we'd like to see in such a game for Final Fantasy, which going forward I shall refer to as Final Fantasy Warriors, abbreviated as FFW.

oh, but there's already an existing franchise under Square Enix's wing wich works exactly like that. that would be "Drakengard", aka "Drag-On-Dragoon" for the japanese audience.

it also has some sort of ties with yet another franchise from SE, the "Nier" serie, but sadly Drakengard kind of died out after the Playstation 3 era, leaving only 3 titles behind as a testament to its existence( the first two for Playstation 2, and the 3rd for PS3 ).

[Fabulously Olivier]

53 minutes ago, albertmort said:

I don't think adding any specific warriors will make the game more popular.

That makes no sense. We already know that more popular IP makes these games sell better, and it holds to reason that more popular characters within that IP can also sway individuals' decisions to purchase something. Especially for a series, like Warriors, with a history of advertising its character count.

Edited December 26, 2022 by Fabulously Olivier

[Raynomurn]

I respect your point, but I can't entirely agree with it. Crossovers often become popular because they are aimed at two audiences at once. Besides, I don't see anything wrong with combining stories with similar plots. For example, the manga ""Fairy Tale"" author created a crossover where he combined the two universes he created.  I think it's a cute and proper gesture to please the fans. I've been playing Final Fantasy for a long time and haven't noticed any revolutionary updates yet. At the same time, I constantly update my inventory with igitems.com.  I am waiting for new Japanese developments.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Raynomurn

[Jotari]

On 9/28/2020 at 9:37 PM, Lord_Brand said:

 Final Fantasy, the most famous JRPG series of all time. 

My pet peeve here, I don't expect anyone to care but I am spiritually obligated to voice my dissatisfaction when I see the term. All time includes all future time. It's highly unlikely Final Fantasy will continue to be popular between now and the end of time itself. In history is a more accurate turn of phrase as it doesn't denote future history. Also Pokemon is a jrpg that's no doubt more popular than Final Fantasy.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

On 9/28/2020 at 10:48 AM, Zapp Branniglenn said:

I haven't gotten around to playing 15 but may I be the first to suggest the car? You know, all four party members are there, you just play as the car. Maybe Noctis will warp out for a cool move here and there.

Ha. what a treat to rediscover this. I have played FF15 in the years since and I have nothing to add. This is perfect.

You know, I remember a decade ago whenever somebody suggested a Final Fantasy Warriors, FF fans would boast that their franchise is too cool or too prestigious for a Warriors game. But then they went and made one for Zelda and now nothing is off the table. Dragon Quest as well (look, it's a big deal in Japan). I suppose FF is only a matter of time. Likely as a Dissidia re-brand in 2025-ish

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Ha. what a treat to rediscover this. I have played FF15 in the years since and I have nothing to add. This is perfect.

You know, I remember a decade ago whenever somebody suggested a Final Fantasy Warriors, FF fans would boast that their franchise is too cool or too prestigious for a Warriors game. But then they went and made one for Zelda and now nothing is off the table. Dragon Quest as well (look, it's a big deal in Japan). I suppose FF is only a matter of time. Likely as a Dissidia re-brand in 2025-ish

Much as I love the OP's idea of using princess Sarah and the Prince of Elfheim as playable characters, I can't see a Final Fantasy Warriors not going down the Dissidia route. It will be the most perdictable 20 or so characters with just one or two curve balls. I'd say even many of the villains would have a hard time getting in. Unless they go the Three Houses route and focus on just one game, but if they do that...it would totally just be Final Fantasy VII. From an objective plot sense the game that seems like it would lend itself most to Mushou would be Final Fantasy II, but even the people who like Final Fantasy II don't like Final Fantasy II!

Another route would be to just not use any characters and just make it class based with warriors and black mages being the fighters, but then you lose your whole marketing angle that makes the game work in the first place.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Jotari

[Lord_Brand]

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

My pet peeve here, I don't expect anyone to care but I am spiritually obligated to voice my dissatisfaction when I see the term. All time includes all future time. It's highly unlikely Final Fantasy will continue to be popular between now and the end of time itself. In history is a more accurate turn of phrase as it doesn't denote future history. Also Pokemon is a jrpg that's no doubt more popular than Final Fantasy.

Fair enough. Pokemon's popular enough to give Mario competition these days. All the same, Final Fantasy is a major JRPG franchise that helped set a lot of the trends JRPGs follow to this day; even Pokemon draws some inspiration from this series (for example, the Type system that draws close parallels to FF's elements), so at the very least it deserves to be called one of the most popular JRPG series of all time, as its games continue to sell and make headlines in the video game industry.

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

Much as I love the OP's idea of using princess Sarah and the Prince of Elfheim as playable characters, I can't see a Final Fantasy Warriors not going down the Dissidia route. It will be the most perdictable 20 or so characters with just one or two curve balls. I'd say even many of the villains would have a hard time getting in. Unless they go the Three Houses route and focus on just one game, but if they do that...it would totally just be Final Fantasy VII. From an objective plot sense the game that seems like it would lend itself most to Mushou would be Final Fantasy II, but even the people who like Final Fantasy II don't like Final Fantasy II!

No doubt a FFW will use many of Dissidia's characters as a starting point. Doesn't mean we can't still propose our own ideas for how a FFW should be made. There's always the prospect of DLC to add new playable characters as well as new maps, bosses, summons, etc. over time.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Lord_Brand said:

Fair enough. Pokemon's popular enough to give Mario competition these days. All the same, Final Fantasy is a major JRPG franchise that helped set a lot of the trends JRPGs follow to this day; even Pokemon draws some inspiration from this series (for example, the Type system that draws close parallels to FF's elements), so at the very least it deserves to be called one of the most popular JRPG series of all time, as its games continue to sell and make headlines in the video game industry.

Eh. I think attributing Pokemon's type system to Final Fantasy is pushing it a bit. But I'll not argue the point.

Quote

No doubt a FFW will use many of Dissidia's characters as a starting point. Doesn't mean we can't still propose our own ideas for how a FFW should be made. There's always the prospect of DLC to add new playable characters as well as new maps, bosses, summons, etc. over time.

The way I would personally most prefer it tonwork would be to focus on the first three games, the NES games, call it Final Fantasy Warriors Originis Retrospectivis or something. The focus is on all of the originaln classic Final Fantasy. Crystals, chosen warriors and iconic classes. The roster would be as follows.

FF1
*Warrior: The Warrior of Light from Dissidia only he has an actual name.
*Black Mage: A classic black mage. Much like Warrior he will be given an actual name. Vivi, if one wants to have extra fanservice.
*Monk: Same as above, old class, but essentially a new character with a new name.
*Thief: The fourth and final Warrior of Light. Since Monk and Warriorbare goijg tonbe male and black mage will be gender non specificed but mostly male, let's makebthe thief character female.
*Princess Sarah, representing the White Mage class. Mostly wind and holy magic (wind was white magic in ff3). There is an anti undead spell in FF1 too, but that would probably just be a name.
*Princess of Elfheim, representing the Red Mage class.
*Garland, typical large crowd clearing vallain character.

FF2
*Firion: Dissidia made him a jack if all trades character using all weapons. Which is cool and all, but I'd prefer to go a different direction and make Firion a mage. The reason being, his was the game that introduced Ultima and it was actually kind of plot important. And yet somehow didn't end up in his moveset in Dissidia. He could still use blood sword since thats pretty associated with him too, maybe blood sword for light attacks and magic for heavy attacks making him a second variation if the red mage.
*Guy: Wields an axe and is one of those slow, heavy hitting types. Represents the berserker class. The other, a bit nire interesting option for him would be to make him a beastmaster class that controls animals.
*Maria: She uses the archer class, since she starts with a bow in the original and has a bow as her ultimate weapon in one of the remakes.
*Leon: Brings the Dark Knight class and all its associated gameplay elements and aestetics to the table. Sacrificss HP fir power
*Ricard: Uses the dragoon class with all its classic spear and jump antics. He can have Lancet too.
*The Emperor: He has a trap style of foghting in Dissidia, which I like conceptually for the character. Not sure how well it would fit into a warriors game. He alsonsummons a tornado at one point in the game, so wind magic, something Dissidia (mostly) ignored could be a basis for his moveset.

FF3
*Luneth: Onion Knight. To simulate the class's gimmick in warriors, Onion Knight has a mechaic that makes Luneth get stronger mid battle depending on your number of kills.
*Arc: No a particularly special class in FF3, but I've chosen Bard for Arc. Hey, a lute is important at one point in the game. Plus it suits his personality and is a classic Final Fantasy class.
*Refia: Gets the summoner class, with the FF3 summons (well technically its the Sage class, one of the the two ultimate Jobs of FF3, but fir the series as a whole she's representing summoning).
*Ingus: Ninja, to match Sage as representing one ofnthe two ultimate classes from FF3. Would be pretty similar to FF1's Theif character.
*Cid: Works as a mechanicist. But is mostly here because we need a Cid.
*Xanade: Not sure what his gameplay niche could be.

The Cloud of Darkness would actually be the main antagonist and final boss. Chaos is the obvious choice, but I've always found Cloud of Darkness to be the more climactic character, or not even character, but plot element.

As for specific mechanics, well, I personally think Warriors needs an overhaul in general in its gameplay, but I suppose the specific thing Final Fantasy Warriors could have would be MP. Though I suppose they have already kind of done that with combat arts in Three Hopes. Still, it could be elaborated on, especially if using old school Final Fantasy's multiple levels of MP system.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Jotari

[Lord_Brand]

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

Eh. I think attributing Pokemon's type system to Final Fantasy is pushing it a bit. But I'll not argue the point.

This raises the question: what were some of the first RPGs to use an elemental advantage system? You could argue the five elements of Chinese Taoism - Earth, Metal, Water, Wood, and Fire - was one of humanity's earliest examples of "Elemental Rock-Paper-Scissors" with the cycle of overcoming (Earth > Water > Fire > Metal > Wood > Earth), as well as RPS itself, but what was the first actual RPG to use such a system? FF's own inspiration, Dungeons & Dragons, does feature an elemental cycle as well: Air > Water > Fire > Earth > Air. So, I suppose it's disingenuous to say Final Fantasy specifically influenced Pokemon in that regard, but FF nevertheless helped popularize ERPS as it did many JRPG tropes.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Lord_Brand

[Fabulously Olivier]

19 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Ha. what a treat to rediscover this. I have played FF15 in the years since and I have nothing to add. This is perfect.

You know, I remember a decade ago whenever somebody suggested a Final Fantasy Warriors, FF fans would boast that their franchise is too cool or too prestigious for a Warriors game. But then they went and made one for Zelda and now nothing is off the table. Dragon Quest as well (look, it's a big deal in Japan). I suppose FF is only a matter of time. Likely as a Dissidia re-brand in 2025-ish

I'd argue that despite it's popularity, FF is almost Sonic tiers of "more bad games than good ones" now. It's laughable to claim a musou would damage their prestige when they had multiple mobile games and low quality spinoffs that actually represent brand damage.

 

Also, on the Warriors side, Final Fantasy was and is one of, if not the, most requested spinoffs. It'd probably be 2nd in sales only to Age of Calamity.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

43 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

I'd argue that despite it's popularity, FF is almost Sonic tiers of "more bad games than good ones" now. It's laughable to claim a musou would damage their prestige when they had multiple mobile games and low quality spinoffs that actually represent brand damage.

I might be inclined to agree now, in 2022. Especially if we're focused on a Post-Squaresoft Final Fantasy. Because if we are looking at the whole thing, FF1-10 were all industry-leading bangers considering the then-current competition. 15 year old franchise and the generally agreed upon worst games are FF2 and 8? Damn, I'd replay those over Dragon Warrior 2 and Xenogears. And I don't think I need to play FF's modern high points (FF7 Remake, FF14 Reborn) to see that they stand far above Modern Sonic. Mania is pretty good, sure. But it did not turn the series around, and it's not even the best Sonic fan game in my imo.

But I am talking about optics, and I specified ten years ago for a reason. In 2012, FF14's rough launch hadn't yet happened. FF13 Versus was still a game expected to release. All the Bravest did not exist. If you asked Square what their biggest underperformance was, it'd be Final Fantasy 13, a game that still sold many million more than any new trash rpg you or I have been playing in the last ten years (assuming said trash does not have "Pokemon" in its title. Persona 5 can potentially match it one of these years between Vanilla and Royal versions. Square was finally done milking FF13 after five years, while Atlus may just be at the midpoint for P5. If I was in charge, I'd greenlight a Persona 5 2, then a third to make it a trilogy. Who says this train has to stop?)

[Fabulously Olivier]

1 hour ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

I might be inclined to agree now, in 2022. Especially if we're focused on a Post-Squaresoft Final Fantasy. Because if we are looking at the whole thing, FF1-10 were all industry-leading bangers considering the then-current competition. 15 year old franchise and the generally agreed upon worst games are FF2 and 8? Damn, I'd replay those over Dragon Warrior 2 and Xenogears. And I don't think I need to play FF's modern high points (FF7 Remake, FF14 Reborn) to see that they stand far above Modern Sonic. Mania is pretty good, sure. But it did not turn the series around, and it's not even the best Sonic fan game in my imo.

But I am talking about optics, and I specified ten years ago for a reason. In 2012, FF14's rough launch hadn't yet happened. FF13 Versus was still a game expected to release. All the Bravest did not exist. If you asked Square what their biggest underperformance was, it'd be Final Fantasy 13, a game that still sold many million more than any new trash rpg you or I have been playing in the last ten years (assuming said trash does not have "Pokemon" in its title. Persona 5 can potentially match it one of these years between Vanilla and Royal versions. Square was finally done milking FF13 after five years, while Atlus may just be at the midpoint for P5. If I was in charge, I'd greenlight a Persona 5 2, then a third to make it a trilogy. Who says this train has to stop?)

Persona 5 Strikers was Persona 5-2. Different gameplay aside, it is a canon sequel, and not in the Age of Calamity/Three Hopes sense.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

 15 year old franchise and the generally agreed upon worst games are FF2 and 8? 

I'd say 8 is generally considered one of the best ones. People just have a misunderstood perception of it due to one rather disingenuous review. 5 would probably be along with 2 as among the worst games of the first 10. People love the Job System in it, but that's kind of where talk about it begins and ends.

1 hour ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

All the Bravest did not exist. 

I don't think anything cpuld damage the integrity of Final Fantasy as a sophisticated brand than All The Bravest. Granted, I mever played the game, but from what I understand it was basically pay to win in a game that had no actual gameplay.

1 hour ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

 (assuming said trash does not have "Pokemon" in its title.

Heh, I've kond of been turned off on Pokemon games the passed ten years too XD They're just so passable.

1 hour ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

 

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

58 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Persona 5 Strikers was Persona 5-2. Different gameplay aside, it is a canon sequel, and not in the Age of Calamity/Three Hopes sense.

From what I've been hearing it sounds exactly like an Age of Calamity/Three Hopes sequel? I haven't played them, but the premise of Strikers and Royal suggested to me alternative timelines. Neither is invalidated, yet neither is canon.

52 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I'd say 8 is generally considered one of the best ones. People just have a misunderstood perception of it due to one rather disingenuous review.

Which review is that? I'd swear every big outlet I had ever heard talking about FF8 recently had too-charitable thoughts about the game and its eccentricities.

Quote

5 would probably be along with 2 as among the worst games of the first 10. People love the Job System in it, but that's kind of where talk about it begins and ends.

In my teenage journey through the Final Fantasy series I heard consistently glowing impressions of FF5. People going so far as to say it "invalidates 3", which I don't agree with. If you ask me, the game is pretty good. I even liked the polarizing parts like the time limit dungeon. You got to remember that game didn't release over here until many years later. I've met so many final fantasy fans over the years (all the way up to the recent Pixel Remaster) that assumed (incorrectly) their only means of playing the game was via translation patch of the super famicom version, but there was a low-key compilation release on the PS1. It was a really bad port too. Awful load times, game breaking bugs, a major character's name was translated to be an Italian slur. Not at all on the same quality as the Origins (1+2) duology.

5's greatest legacy is the yearly Four Job Fiesta charity event. That and this incredible composition. The Bravely Default franchise...I'll call that the third best legacy. 

[Fabulously Olivier]

10 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

From what I've been hearing it sounds exactly like an Age of Calamity/Three Hopes sequel? I haven't played them, but the premise of Strikers and Royal suggested to me alternative timelines. Neither is invalidated, yet neither is canon.

Which review is that? I'd swear every big outlet I had ever heard talking about FF8 recently had too-charitable thoughts about the game and its eccentricities.

In my teenage journey through the Final Fantasy series I heard consistently glowing impressions of FF5. People going so far as to say it "invalidates 3", which I don't agree with. If you ask me, the game is pretty good. I even liked the polarizing parts like the time limit dungeon. You got to remember that game didn't release over here until many years later. I've met so many final fantasy fans over the years (all the way up to the recent Pixel Remaster) that assumed (incorrectly) their only means of playing the game was via translation patch of the super famicom version, but there was a low-key compilation release on the PS1. It was a really bad port too. Awful load times, game breaking bugs, a major character's name was translated to be an Italian slur. Not at all on the same quality as the Origins (1+2) duology.

5's greatest legacy is the yearly Four Job Fiesta charity event. That and this incredible composition. The Bravely Default franchise...I'll call that the third best legacy. 

Royal is the alternate timeline. Strikers is the straight up sequel to vanilla Persona 5.

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

From what I've been hearing it sounds exactly like an Age of Calamity/Three Hopes sequel? I haven't played them, but the premise of Strikers and Royal suggested to me alternative timelines. Neither is invalidated, yet neither is canon.

Which review is that? I'd swear every big outlet I had ever heard talking about FF8 recently had too-charitable thoughts about the game and its eccentricities.

I was referring to Spoony, but by your own omission there people do review FF8 well. It is among the more popular games in the series (all the PS1 titles are).

6 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

In my teenage journey through the Final Fantasy series I heard consistently glowing impressions of FF5. People going so far as to say it "invalidates 3", which I don't agree with. If you ask me, the game is pretty good. I even liked the polarizing parts like the time limit dungeon. You got to remember that game didn't release over here until many years later. I've met so many final fantasy fans over the years (all the way up to the recent Pixel Remaster) that assumed (incorrectly) their only means of playing the game was via translation patch of the super famicom version, but there was a low-key compilation release on the PS1. It was a really bad port too. Awful load times, game breaking bugs, a major character's name was translated to be an Italian slur. Not at all on the same quality as the Origins (1+2) duology.

5's greatest legacy is the yearly Four Job Fiesta charity event. That and this incredible composition. The Bravely Default franchise...I'll call that the third best legacy. 

You seem to be at odds there, saying that people both like 5 and understandable don't like it due to a botched localisation. My own view of the game was pretty meh. The job system is good, but I don't feel like the game ever really pushes you tonhave much mastery of it and withbthe exception of one great character death, the plot feels underwhelming even compared to the earlier titles.

[jeffery.ollsan]

I'm sure I'll be hated, but what if we get a Dissidia game like Genshin Impact? or a monster hunter-style game, but instead of weapons, different FF characters.

I'd prefer a game with an actual world we can explore with various characters, but with deeper and more meaningful gameplay, rather than a wave of barely intelligent enemies.

Edited January 7, 2023 by jeffery.ollsan

[Lord_Brand]

That simply means a Final Fantasy Warriors wouldn't be for you. Doesn't mean they shouldn't make one. Not every game is for every player, and that's okay.

[Fabulously Olivier]

On 1/7/2023 at 5:59 AM, jeffery.ollsan said:

I'm sure I'll be hated, but what if we get a Dissidia game like Genshin Impact? or a monster hunter-style game, but instead of weapons, different FF characters.

I'd prefer a game with an actual world we can explore with various characters, but with deeper and more meaningful gameplay, rather than a wave of barely intelligent enemies.

The mature answer to this is "why not both." Omegaforce being allowed to make a musou game doesn't prevent it from getting a MH style game (we already have FF's Behemoth in MH), or a Souls-like (which we got last year), or some shitty Genshin Impact knock-off. Third party spinoffs don't block eachother, and not all of them has to be for everyone. Dissidia and Stranger of Paradise weren't for me, and that's fine.