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Which of the Three Trainee Units Should I Use? (Hard Mode)


Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones Trainee Units.  

9 members have voted

  1. 1. Which Unit Should I Use Out of the Three?

    • Ross.
      5
    • Amelia.
      3
    • Ewan.
      1

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  • Poll closed on 09/30/2020 at 04:00 AM

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1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

That's a blatant strawman.

No it's not. It's comparing what you said to a similar situation, except making it more ludicrous for the purpose of demonstration. My point is you can make any unit in a FE game better then another, if you sack one unit enough and give enough favoritism to another, that unit that has been favoritized will become better. If you recall Mekkah 5 years ago with some stuff on Amelia and Seth, you will know what I mean.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

I was talking about other enemies, not thieves.

Yes, but having another unit there holding that point will get the enemies over there to attack and die, solving both problems.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

I don't know about you, but low speed is much, much more crippling than low strength

No it's not. Units with low speed still have enemies they can double and kill, but units with low strength can't kill anything. In hard mode, if Ross gets 1 speed by chapter 5, he can double and kill soldiers. If Colm gets one strength by chapter 5, he cannot kill soldiers or anything else by himself. I would call a unit that can kill things better then a unit that cannot kill things, but if you have a different way of judging combat you can tell me.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

(which are cannon fodder)

Yes, but Colm can't even kill the soldiers, as stated above. Not only that but if he was promoted at the start of chapter 5, he has on average 7 speed, meaning he doubles armor knights and isn't getting doubled by anything except mercenaries and myrmidons, which he shouldn't be fighting.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Ross is even worse off, with only 3 speed meaning he is not very likely to dodge if he is attacked

Although I would argue in a chapter like 6, Ross is more dodgy then Colm. Colm effectively loses 15 avoid in chapter 6 due to most units having a lance, and Ross effectively gains 15 avoid. Colm would need a 15 speed lead to tie this, which he most certainly will not have.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

. Being weak defensively isn't so crippling when you're fast and can thus be reasonably expected to dodge,

Enemy axe users have maybe 40% hit on colm at chapter 5. Every other unit is pretty much 70% or above, which is not a reasonable expectation to dodge.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Fair, though even then, I don't see that making any meaningful difference.

The point I was making here was that Pirate Ross has a speed lead on Fighter Ross, which makes him superior.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

largely because speed is the most important stat in Fire Emblem.

If one unit has 0 str and 10 spd, and another has 10 str and no speed, The unit with str is going to actually be able to kill, and the unit with speed is never doing damage. SS is a game where speed requirements to double are low enough that even Ross hits them at around chapter 9 with Amelia's speedwing, and after that point he is completely superior to Colm in combat due to being able to kill anything he doubles, which is a lot at this point. and having 1-2 range. Colm still struggles to one-round soldiers, even with and energy ring for comparison. A unit that can one-round some enemies and deal decent chip to others is better then a unit that cannot one-round any enemies and deal decent chip to most of them, and pitiful chip to lance-using enemies. Not to mention that that unit that one-rounds some enemies also has 1-2 range available to him, meaning that he can fight on enemy phase and finish units on player phase. It's just like that one scenario Mekkah used for Lyn: if you have two units, one of which has 1-2 range and the other doesn't, but the unit with 1 range only one-rounds units and the unit with 1-2 range two-rounds them, which takes out a group of 4 1-2 range units faster? The unit with 1-2 range. The unit with 1-2 range still takes out them faster even if they 3-round the enemies, and the unit with 1-2 range can heal on player phase without taking longer to kill units. This is similar to Ross vs. Colm except with one small problem: Colm doesn't one-round enemies. Colm also needs 2-3 rounds of combat to kill enemies, meaning that he can take up to 12 turns to kill that same group of 1-2 range units. Ross's combat is much better, and FE8 doesn't have any stealables that would require training him for before you get Rennac. The only things I can think of that Rennac cannot steal at base are the Delphi shield and hoplon guard, and those are droppables that you don't need to steal to kill the boss. You can easily have a dragonspear or dragonaxe unit kill Valter, and any unit wielding a sword can take Caellach.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Fair, but once again, an early promoted Ross isn't anything to write home about stat wise. Also, thieves get boosted experience.

Ross also gets boosted experience, 3x as a trainee compared to colm's 1.5x, and as a low level pirate he still gains a lot of xp due to being lower level unit. An early promoted Colm is also nothing to write home about stat wise, as he has a whopping 9 str as a 12/1 rogue or assassin, which is not one-rounding anything

 

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7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Ross is even worse off, with only 3 speed meaning he is not very likely to dodge if he is attacked. Being weak defensively isn't so crippling when you're fast and can thus be reasonably expected to dodge, but when you're a slug, which GBA fighters, Ross included, tend to be, it's really bad.

Being weak defensively is also less crippling when you can reliably attack enemies without fear of a counterattack, something Colm cannot do against anything but archers.

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Again, what the hell do I gain from crippling myself like this? Nothing.

What do I gain by having a level 20 thief who can't fight, though? The promotion item arrives so late that it doesn't matter too much regardless. There are four maps tha you can choose to deploy Matthew when you reasonably would want to, those being 16, 17, 19x and 19xx, and in all but 19xx he shouldn't come close to seeing combat, and even in 19xx he should be just fine.

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

'm not going to dignify this flagrant strawman with a response.

Then please explain to me how a prepromote who needs no investment to do his job is not as good as a growth unit who needs a contested promotion item and doesn't truly benefit from said promotion.

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Not quite; hand axes are 12 weight.

Fair enough, but it makes little difference.

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

3 speed and level 1 trainee is even worse, as I see it, largely because speed is the most important stat in Fire Emblem. Also, what potential Ross has to be a potent offensive threat is blunted because he's a slow foot axe. 

Not really-Ross needs one point of speed to double in ch. 4, and I think once he promotes into pirate, I believe he doubles soldiers too. Either way, he'll put about as much of a dent into things as Colm when Colm doubles. Another thing is that Ross' offense can be fixes with a single Speedwing, which you can get in ch. 9. Colm's offense needs a lot more than just an energy ring-He'd need multiple buffs to his strength, not to mention 1-2 range. If Ross doubles something, it'll die, and there are items that easily get Ross over the doubling threshold-the same isn't true for Colm, between his low strength and swordlock.

8 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

To put things into perspective, an early promoted Berserker Ross ends up being Dozla lite (except with much less HP and much more luck), which I consider really lousy considering the investment needed.

Well, considering Colm can't ever be a good combat unit, I'd consider investing majorly into him to be kinda lousy, especially since Rennac can do everything Colm can.

8 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Fair, but once again, an early promoted Ross isn't anything to write home about stat wise.

True, but early promoting him isn't necessarily a good idea. I'd personally let him cap his strength, at least, since he does have OHKO potential later on.

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6 hours ago, Hello72207 said:

The point I was making here was that Pirate Ross has a speed lead on Fighter Ross, which makes him superior.

If he sticks with iron axes (and the one-of-a-kind Hatchet) exclusively. Should he use anything else, he can kiss that goodbye.

6 hours ago, Hello72207 said:

If one unit has 0 str and 10 spd, and another has 10 str and no speed, The unit with str is going to actually be able to kill, and the unit with speed is never doing damage. SS is a game where speed requirements to double are low enough that even Ross hits them at around chapter 9 with Amelia's speedwing, and after that point he is completely superior to Colm in combat due to being able to kill anything he doubles, which is a lot at this point. and having 1-2 range. Colm still struggles to one-round soldiers, even with and energy ring for comparison. A unit that can one-round some enemies and deal decent chip to others is better then a unit that cannot one-round any enemies and deal decent chip to most of them, and pitiful chip to lance-using enemies. Not to mention that that unit that one-rounds some enemies also has 1-2 range available to him, meaning that he can fight on enemy phase and finish units on player phase. It's just like that one scenario Mekkah used for Lyn: if you have two units, one of which has 1-2 range and the other doesn't, but the unit with 1 range only one-rounds units and the unit with 1-2 range two-rounds them, which takes out a group of 4 1-2 range units faster? The unit with 1-2 range. The unit with 1-2 range still takes out them faster even if they 3-round the enemies, and the unit with 1-2 range can heal on player phase without taking longer to kill units. This is similar to Ross vs. Colm except with one small problem: Colm doesn't one-round enemies. Colm also needs 2-3 rounds of combat to kill enemies, meaning that he can take up to 12 turns to kill that same group of 1-2 range units. Ross's combat is much better, and FE8 doesn't have any stealables that would require training him for before you get Rennac. The only things I can think of that Rennac cannot steal at base are the Delphi shield and hoplon guard, and those are droppables that you don't need to steal to kill the boss. You can easily have a dragonspear or dragonaxe unit kill Valter, and any unit wielding a sword can take Caellach.

That's an unrealistic and extreme situation that ignores other important factors, but anyway, it's harder, or at least more costly, to make up for poor speed than it is to make up for poor strength. If a unit has low strength, I can just have them use stronger weapons to compensate. What can I do to fix a slow unit's speed (aside from giving them a speedwing, which is generally agreed to be the most valuable stat booster)? In any instance, the fact that Ross starts as bad as he is hurts him due to him needing to essentially be played like an archer (which means his leveling speed isn't as fast in practice as it would be in theory), as opposed to Colm, who I can let counter something that won't kill him.

6 hours ago, Hello72207 said:

No it's not. Units with low speed still have enemies they can double and kill, but units with low strength can't kill anything. In hard mode, if Ross gets 1 speed by chapter 5, he can double and kill soldiers. If Colm gets one strength by chapter 5, he cannot kill soldiers or anything else by himself. I would call a unit that can kill things better then a unit that cannot kill things, but if you have a different way of judging combat you can tell me.

So you think Strength is the one stat to rule them all in Fire Emblem?? Because I sure don't for reasons stated above. Also, one-rounding soldiers is not an accomplishment worth boasting about (and unless he's promoted, he probably can't anyway, since he'd have to use the hatchet, which has only 4 might, just to double them, random variance in stats aside).

6 hours ago, Hello72207 said:

No it's not. It's comparing what you said to a similar situation, except making it more ludicrous for the purpose of demonstration. My point is you can make any unit in a FE game better then another, if you sack one unit enough and give enough favoritism to another, that unit that has been favoritized will become better. If you recall Mekkah 5 years ago with some stuff on Amelia and Seth, you will know what I mean.

Come now, they don't even compare. Seth comes in at the prologue, whereas Amelia doesn't show up until about the halfway point. The logical result is that even ignoring the fact the needs to get out of her trainee phase first, Amelia would need unreasonable amounts of favoritism to even get anywhere near Seth's level. On the other hand, Colm comes in chapter 3, while Rennac doesn't come along until the game is 2/3 over. Therefore, assuming that I use him regularly, there is a chance that Colm could be comparable to, or even surpass, Rennac by the time the latter is even relevant, because it's not like Rennac's stats are that good for his being a prepromo.

6 hours ago, Hello72207 said:

No it's not. Units with low speed still have enemies they can double and kill, but units with low strength can't kill anything. In hard mode, if Ross gets 1 speed by chapter 5, he can double and kill soldiers. If Colm gets one strength by chapter 5, he cannot kill soldiers or anything else by himself. I would call a unit that can kill things better then a unit that cannot kill things, but if you have a different way of judging combat you can tell me.

You DO realize the area in question is wide open, don't you...?

6 hours ago, Hello72207 said:

Ross also gets boosted experience, 3x as a trainee compared to colm's 1.5x, and as a low level pirate he still gains a lot of xp due to being lower level unit. An early promoted Colm is also nothing to write home about stat wise, as he has a whopping 9 str as a 12/1 rogue or assassin, which is not one-rounding anything

Again, his leveling speed isn't as impressive as it looks when he has practically no enemy phase, leaving him to player phase action only, not unlike is the case with archers (and we all know how much THEY get bashed).

Edited by Shadow Mir
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3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

In any instance, the fact that Ross starts as bad as he is hurts him due to him needing to essentially be played like an archer (which means his leveling speed isn't as fast in practice as it would be in theory),

Eh, he's completely safe in ch. 4 and 3. Both are very easy places to level him up, as a kill basically is a level and the enemies there pose a tiny threat to him.

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Also, one-rounding soldiers is not an accomplishment worth boasting about 

It is also something Colm cannot do. To one-round those soldiers, assuming they had exactly 32 in bulk, (and they have something near that, but I'll have to check this) he needs to be level 20/3 Rogue ORKO with an iron sword. (Ross needs to be a 10/1 pirate to do this with the hatchet.)

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

What can I do to fix a slow unit's speed (aside from giving them a speedwing, which is generally agreed to be the most valuable stat booster)? 

Well yeah, speedwings are supposed to be used on slow units. That's why they're considered good, as slow units generally have high strength, so if they double, they will kill. This is true of Ross. A speedwing is enough to make him double and ORKO consistently.

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

If a unit has low strength, I can just have them use stronger weapons to compensate.

Normally yes, but Colm has an E rank in swords-to get anything worthwhile, he needs a C in swords, (For the killing edge) and he gets weighed down by them before he promotes, while Ross gets all three axes he'll consistently need at E. Not to mention that swords generally have lower power in general.

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

and unless he's promoted, he probably can't anyway, since he'd have to use the hatchet, which has only 4 might, just to double them, random variance in stats aside

At 10/2, he'll have 7 speed and 12 strength, bringing him to 32 attack if he doubles with the hatchet. That is a fairly easy kill on FE8's weak sauce enemies.

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Amelia would need unreasonable amounts of favoritism to even get anywhere near Seth's level.

Is this not true of Colm? Intentionally training a bad unit so he can eventually surpass a better one is definitely favoritism. There isn't strong incentive to training Colm, as his combat will never be needed, he doesn't need to be trained much to steal anything or open chests, and his promotion is largely superfluous. Rennac is perfectly fine to do his job of opening chests and stealing stuff.

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Again, his leveling speed isn't as impressive as it looks when he has practically no enemy phase, leaving him to player phase action only, not unlike is the case with archers (and we all know how much THEY get bashed).

He can enemy phase at will on ch. 4, between the easy-to-dodge terrain and Revenants. He will level up super quickly on this map.

Edited by Benice
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1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

If he sticks with iron axes (and the one-of-a-kind Hatchet) exclusively. Should he use anything else, he can kiss that goodbye.

Yes, but my point was that if he is weighed down with the same weapon as a fighter ross, he has the same speed. If Ross is using the hatchet with 50 uses, which is plenty or an iron axe, he has a speed lead. Fighter Ross can do nothing to become faster then Pirate Ross, but Pirate Ross can become faster the Fighter Ross.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

I can let counter something that won't kill him.

Ross literally comes with a lightweight 1-2 range weapon designed to train him and not have him take counters.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

What can I do to fix a slow unit's speed (aside from giving them a speedwing, which is generally agreed to be the most valuable stat booster)?

The point of giving units speedwings is to let them double. The reason speedwings are considered the best is you give them to high str units so they can double and kill.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

So you think Strength is the one stat to rule them all in Fire Emblem??

No, I think units with high strength and middling speed are better then units with low str and high speed.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Also, one-rounding soldiers is not an accomplishment worth boasting about

an accomplishment that Colm cannot do.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Again, his leveling speed isn't as impressive as it looks when he has practically no enemy phase

Yes, but the option is there. Colm never gets more of an enemy phase then Ross, but Ross will become an enemy phase unit eventually. Archers get bashed, but Colm also has no Enemy phase, but Ross can eventually get one.

 

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

I can just have them use stronger weapons to compensate.

Yes, but Colm has an E in swords, so getting him to even steel is hard.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

it's not like Rennac's stats are that good for his being a prepromo.

Rennac's stats are perfect for what he needs to do, which is get chests and steal things. Thieves are not combat units, and they are swordlocked in a game where having 1-2 range makes almost anyone good.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

That's an unrealistic and extreme situation that ignores other important factors,

Alright, here's a less extreme case. Both Colm and Ross are trying to kill an archer. The archer will most likely hit both of them, and 3hkos them. Ross also 3hkos the archer with his hatchet, and Colm also 3-rounds. Ross kills the archer in 2 turns, and takes 1 hit, being fine mostly. Colm kills the archer in 3 turns, and takes 2 hits, almost being dead. Ross did better in combat. Even if Ross only 4hkoed the archer, he still finishes it a turn earlier then Colm.

 

Edited by Hello72207
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