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Which of the Three Trainee Units Should I Use? (Hard Mode)

Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones Trainee Units.  

9 members have voted

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  1. 1. Which Unit Should I Use Out of the Three?

    • Ross.
      5
    • Amelia.
      3
    • Ewan.
      1

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  • Poll closed on 09/30/20 at 04:00 AM

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Ross is the easiest to use, simply because he joins early enough to be able to catch up in terms of XP. If you don't plan to promote Colm, Berserker!Ross can be quite fun to use; otherwise, Hero!Ross is the best option, although that option kinda plays like a worse Garcia.

Amelia requires the most busywork, since feeding kills to a lance-using unit with abysmal base stats is really annoying and/or risky once the map runs out of Archers and Priests. She doesn't even have a Hatchet equivalent for a more accurate 1-2 range option. Pala!Amelia is technically the best endgame unit out of the three, but it's a chore to get there.

Ewan joins even later, but has much, much better 1-2 range options, which automatically makes him easier to train than Amelia. On the flip side, as a combat unit, he's pretty thoroughly outclassed by Lute and as a Summoner, Knoll requires so much less investment (a guiding ring and nothing else, in fact). Still, I like magic users and Ewan is a fun little project, so I picked him in the vote. Just don't go Druid, dark magic is awful in this game.

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9 minutes ago, ping said:

Just don't go Druid, dark magic is awful in this game.

Dark magic is fine, its the legendary weapon which is complete and utter crud.

Berserker Ross is the best out of them.

same speed as hero Ross, but with 15 crit boost, along with water and peak walking

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Ross is undeniably the best of the three, since he's the only one you could theoretically use without slowing down a lot, and he has quite a lot of potential as well.

Amelia is pretty much undeniably the worst of the three, as her growths don't really compensate for her bases, but she can become a paladin. And it is the biggest flex to say "I used Amelia with no grinding." She also has a support with Franz,  so she can help him a bit as well.

Ewan is very bad, but he has access to summoner and Mage knight, as well as reliably 1-2 range chip, so training him is easier than training Amelia-He also can be a utility unit as a summoner if he grew poorly for you.

I voted Amelia because she's the most difficult to use. 

Thank me later.

Oh, and welcome to the forest!

Edited by Benice

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9 minutes ago, Hello72207 said:

Dark magic is fine, its the legendary weapon which is complete and utter crud.

Ehhhhh... Flux is just a worse Thunder spell. And Elfire is much easier to find a use for than Nosferatu, thanks to a four-point weight difference and considerably better accuracy, HP steal or not.

In my opinion, Dark magic has some fancy, but largely useless tricks, which Anima has the consistently better numbers on it. In Ewan's case, it doesn't help that he has to start at D rank as a Shaman, while Mage!Ewan gets D Anima plus the weapon XP that he got as a Pupil.

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Ross is the easiest to use, as everyone has been saying. He'll have Spd problems, but it's alright if you get good Str growths since he'll punch through stuff in one hit, especially if he crits.

I personally think Amelia is the most fun of the three, but I'd probably only bother with her on Ephraim route since you get her earlier. Paladin Amelia is a decent unit, but General Amelia is fun if you want to see a fast armor naturally doubling things. I gave her Boots in my run too for some extra spiciness.

Ewan is probably the most pointless one, since you have so many good mage options. If you do Summoner Ewan he can summon four phantoms in one turn, I think, but half the time you might not actually want to use them because you want to Enemy Phase.

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21 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

If you do Summoner Ewan he can summon four phantoms in one turn, I think

I think it is just one, since each summoner can only have one phantom at a time. You can have him summon twice per turn by summoning, having the phantom get defeated by something then summoning again after dancing Ewan, though.

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4 minutes ago, Benice said:

I think it is just one, since each summoner can only have one phantom at a time. You can have him summon twice per turn by summoning, having the phantom get defeated by something then summoning again after dancing Ewan, though.

Oh, I must have mixed something up then. Thanks for the correction.

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2 hours ago, Hello72207 said:

Dark magic is fine, its the legendary weapon which is complete and utter crud.

Berserker Ross is the best out of them.

same speed as hero Ross, but with 15 crit boost, along with water and peak walking

I fail to see how dark magic is fine when Luna got nerfed to the point of uselessness and Nosferatu is so heavy as to be impractical. Eclipse is lol, too.

It also has a pretty high opportunity cost, considering that there is only one Ocean Seal before the secret shop (and honestly, I'm convinced Colm is the better user of it). Also, water and peak walking are not very useful.

36 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

I personally think Amelia is the most fun of the three, but I'd probably only bother with her on Ephraim route since you get her earlier.

What? Doesn't Amelia join in chapter 9 regardless of route? Or do you mean she's easier to recruit in Ephraim route?

Anyways, personally, while Ross is the easiest to make usable due to early joining, at the end of the day, he's still axe infantry in a GBA game, which are mediocre at best. I prefer Amelia because she gets a good class (Paladin). I'll give you fair warning, though, she'll need some time in the tower. Also, keep stronger units nearby in case something she can't handle comes along.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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51 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

(and honestly, I'm convinced Colm is the better user of it)

why are you even promoting Colm? He doesn't really need pick because SS really doesn't have many chests before you get Rennac, and Colm isn't the best fighter.

52 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

What? Doesn't Amelia join in chapter 9 regardless of route? Or do you mean she's easier to recruit in Ephraim route?

She joins earlier in chapter 9 Ephraim.

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56 minutes ago, Hello72207 said:

why are you even promoting Colm? He doesn't really need pick because SS really doesn't have many chests before you get Rennac, and Colm isn't the best fighter.

Rennac's stats are pretty lousy, and as a thief, if he's seeing regular use, the boosted experience he gets will help get Colm up to speed.

1 hour ago, Hello72207 said:

She joins earlier in chapter 9 Ephraim.

Fair, I guess.

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3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Rennac's stats are pretty lousy, and as a thief, if he's seeing regular use, the boosted experience he gets will help get Colm up to speed.

I suppose it's a good thing thieves don't need stats to open chests and doors, then. As an infantry sword unit in a enemy-phase game, training Colm isn't worth it as he won't see enough combat to reward the trouble. Rennac's stats are perfectly fine if he needs to take a hit or two, which is all thieves need. There are 3 chapters with chests before you get Rennac, training Colm is just uncessesary trouble.

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3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Rennac's stats are pretty lousy, and as a thief, if he's seeing regular use, the boosted experience he gets will help get Colm up to speed.

There really ain't anything to steal, though. Plus the fact that Rennac can steal the Fili shield at base, as far as I know. Thief utility isn't super needed in this game, and there is no reason for Colm to really see combat, as neither Rogue nor Assassin really have good combat due to lack of 1-2 range.

Edited by Benice

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2 hours ago, Hello72207 said:

I suppose it's a good thing thieves don't need stats to open chests and doors, then. As an infantry sword unit in a enemy-phase game, training Colm isn't worth it as he won't see enough combat to reward the trouble. Rennac's stats are perfectly fine if he needs to take a hit or two, which is all thieves need. There are 3 chapters with chests before you get Rennac, training Colm is just uncessesary trouble.

Be that as it may, about the only chapter where I have a good reason to deploy Rennac is chapter 19 on account of it being fog of war; by the way, Rennac is not that good defensively because of his poor evade (hey, he's a thief, I expect him to actually dodge). Also, it's not like Colm is so bad I'm better off considering using a slow and defensively weak foot axe over him. What's more, you can't buy chest keys until after the route split. And I don't know about you, but I can't say no to free items.

2 hours ago, Benice said:

There really ain't anything to steal, though. Plus the fact that Rennac can steal the Fili shield at base, as far as I know. Thief utility isn't super needed in this game, and there is no reason for Colm to really see combat, as neither Rogue nor Assassin really have good combat due to lack of 1-2 range.

There are various stat boosters that must be stolen, chief among them an energy ring in chapter 7. Also, some Red Gems, because extra cash is extra cash. And FYI, Rennac is too slow to steal the Fili Shield, as Valter has 18 speed, whilst Rennac only starts with 17.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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7 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Be that as it may, about the only chapter where I have a good reason to deploy Rennac is chapter 19 on account of it being fog of war; by the way, Rennac is not that good defensively because of his poor evade (hey, he's a thief, I expect him to actually dodge). Also, it's not like Colm is that bad. What's more, you can't buy chest keys until after the route split. And I don't know about you, but I can't say no to free items.

Be that as it may, Rennac is kinda like this game's Astore-Not really a combat unit, but better than the other thieves. There is no huge reason to train Colm when he can do his thief utility, then have Rennac replace him. Colm does his thiefing just fine, but so can Rennac, and a base Rennac is better than a base Colm.

7 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

There are various stat boosters that must be stolen, chief among them an energy ring in chapter 7. Also, some Red Gems, because extra cash is extra cash.

Don't know about the red gems, but I know that Colm is fast enough to steal the energy drink at base from that mage, and likely is fast enough to steal most of the gems of the red variety as well, seeing as FE8's enemies aren't what I'd call high quality. It also takes Colm 13 levels* to match base Rennac's speed, and Rennac comes packing with a speed growth that is nearly equivocal to Colm's. I don't think Colm is useless, but as he isn't a good combat unit, doesn't need to be a rogue to do thief things and because Rennac does a better job of it, I don't think he's really worthwhile to train or promote.

(Not that Ross is really worth using either, but he does need promotion to get into his best class.)

*My bad, 11, but the point stands that this is a lot of exp for a unit who won't be doing fighting and can be more-or-less replaced by a prepromote with no investment, assuming L'Arachel recruits him.)

7 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

And FYI, Rennac is too slow to steal the Fili Shield, as Valter has 18 speed, whilst Rennac only starts with 17.

Ah, my bad.

Edited by Benice

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1 hour ago, Benice said:

Be that as it may, Rennac is kinda like this game's Astore-Not really a combat unit, but better than the other thieves. There is no huge reason to train Colm when he can do his thief utility, then have Rennac replace him. Colm does his thiefing just fine, but so can Rennac, and a base Rennac is better than a base Colm.

Comparing Rennac to Astore... is that your idea of a joke? If so, try harder, because I'm not laughing. Astore joins in chapter 8 of a 30-ish chapter game, whereas Rennac joins far later, and his game is significantly shorter.

1 hour ago, Benice said:

Don't know about the red gems, but I know that Colm is fast enough to steal the energy drink at base from that mage, and likely is fast enough to steal most of the gems of the red variety as well, seeing as FE8's enemies aren't what I'd call high quality. It also takes Colm 13 levels* to match base Rennac's speed, and Rennac comes packing with a speed growth that is nearly equivocal to Colm's. I don't think Colm is useless, but as he isn't a good combat unit, doesn't need to be a rogue to do thief things and because Rennac does a better job of it, I don't think he's really worthwhile to train or promote.

(Not that Ross is really worth using either, but he does need promotion to get into his best class.)

*My bad, 11, but the point stands that this is a lot of exp for a unit who won't be doing fighting and can be more-or-less replaced by a prepromote with no investment, assuming L'Arachel recruits him.)

I agree that FE8 enemies aren't exactly high quality, but Rennac isn't a quality unit himself. He's best summed up as a mediocre dodger who faces crit chances, which I consider very, VERY undesirable considering how bad crits are to be on the receiving end of). 

I don't know about you, but I see Hero as Ross's best class (as far as I'm concerned, all Berserker does is bless Ross with fancy tricks that are pretty much useless).

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16 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Comparing Rennac to Astore... is that your idea of a joke? If so, try harder, because I'm not laughing. Astore joins in chapter 8 of a 30-ish chapter game, whereas Rennac joins far later, and his game is significantly shorter.

And he makes the previous thief largely pointless to train because he exists. He is not as useful as Astore, but the fact is that not having to train a thief, who is a non-combat unit, is a good thing. It takes a lot of effort to get Colm up to Rennac's level, for little payoff, really.

16 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I agree that FE8 enemies aren't exactly high quality, but Rennac isn't a quality unit himself. He's best summed up as a mediocre dodger who faces crit chances, which I consider very, VERY undesirable considering how bad crits are to be on the receiving end of). 

He still does better than an untrained Colm-And there isn't a ton of incentive to train Colm given that there isn't much you need to raise him for to steal, (Fili shield being the only one, and he drops it regardless, and there aren't any good units who have access to bows as far as I recall.) He has higher avoid than Colm at base as well, and Colm needs about ten levels just to match base Rennac. Neither should really be used as combat units either way, really.

16 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I don't know about you, but I see Hero as Ross's best class (as far as I'm concerned, all Berserker does is bless Ross with fancy tricks that are pretty much useless).

Well, both grant him a +2 boon to speed*, and while hero grants him swords, which are kind of pointless in FE8, 'Zerker gets him an unreliable +15 to crit, one more defense and one less strength than hero, but also faster crossing of water and the ability to go on mountains, although uses of the latter are particularly limited. Personally, I prefer the extra point going to defense rather than strength as it's def that he's more wanting for. A bit of a minor point, but Hero's class cap is 25, which Ross will hit after about 25-30 ish levels, which isn't too hard for him to attain over the course of the game. (About 10/20/9, or 29 levels) Zerker Ross can go to 30 strength, which benefits him a little bit.

So, at least in my playstyle,  the minor bonus to crit and increased versatility is more important than the swords and +1 strength hero offers.

*Pitfall wiki has lied to me, it is +1 for 'zerker, but Pirate and 'Zerker both give him +1 speed, whereas Fighter doesn't, so it's actually the same in the end.

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7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I don't know about you, but I see Hero as Ross's best class (as far as I'm concerned, all Berserker does is bless Ross with fancy tricks that are pretty much useless).

All hero does is give Ross a weapon type he will pretty much never use, so I guess it's even. There is no reason for Ross to ever use a weapon with less might and no 1-2 range except in situations where an addtional 15 avoid is helpful, and it's not that good of a tradeoff when he's not countering and doing even less damage. Hero Ross isn't even faster then Berserker Ross, which one would expect. Berserker Ross there are a few maps with peaks where he can get 40 avoid and be untouchable, and 15 crit always is 

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

agree that FE8 enemies aren't exactly high quality, but Rennac isn't a quality unit himself. He's best summed up as a mediocre dodger who faces crit chances, which I consider very, VERY undesirable considering how bad crits are to be on the receiving end of). 

Well then it's good that he doesn't need to fight. His bulk is such that he can be hit a few times without dying, and only mercenaries and myrmidons have crit on him, and he doesn't need to fight to do his job. Not being able to steal the Fili shield isn't even that bad, as the only units who even have bows would be Gerik if you make him a ranger, Neimi who nobody ever trains, and Innes, who is just barely not being doubled at base by Valter and his durability is not very good. You have a dragonspear and maybe a dragon axe, both of which absolutely destroy Valter, and he drops the Fili shield, so you still get it.

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5 hours ago, Hello72207 said:

All hero does is give Ross a weapon type he will pretty much never use, so I guess it's even. There is no reason for Ross to ever use a weapon with less might and no 1-2 range except in situations where an addtional 15 avoid is helpful, and it's not that good of a tradeoff when he's not countering and doing even less damage. Hero Ross isn't even faster then Berserker Ross, which one would expect. Berserker Ross there are a few maps with peaks where he can get 40 avoid and be untouchable, and 15 crit always is 

I don't see peak walking as useful, given that most of the time peaks are out of the way, and about the only thing you're engaging on them is fliers, which Ross already has a good matchup against anyhow. Also, while Hero Ross isn't faster than Berserker Ross, it doesn't require me to deliberately screw over a better unit to access.

12 hours ago, Benice said:

Well, both grant him a +2 boon to speed*, and while hero grants him swords, which are kind of pointless in FE8, 'Zerker gets him an unreliable +15 to crit, one more defense and one less strength than hero, but also faster crossing of water and the ability to go on mountains, although uses of the latter are particularly limited. Personally, I prefer the extra point going to defense rather than strength as it's def that he's more wanting for. A bit of a minor point, but Hero's class cap is 25, which Ross will hit after about 25-30 ish levels, which isn't too hard for him to attain over the course of the game. (About 10/20/9, or 29 levels) Zerker Ross can go to 30 strength, which benefits him a little bit.

So, at least in my playstyle,  the minor bonus to crit and increased versatility is more important than the swords and +1 strength hero offers.

*Pitfall wiki has lied to me, it is +1 for 'zerker, but Pirate and 'Zerker both give him +1 speed, whereas Fighter doesn't, so it's actually the same in the end.

See above. Also, water crossing is rather limited in usage as well - I can do that faster by just having a flier ferry someone else across the sea (to say nothing of the fact that there is literally all of one map where water walking would be worthwhile anyway). Also, I don't really see the higher strength cap Berserker has as very important, given that main-game wise, it won't matter.

12 hours ago, Benice said:

And he makes the previous thief largely pointless to train because he exists. He is not as useful as Astore, but the fact is that not having to train a thief, who is a non-combat unit, is a good thing. It takes a lot of effort to get Colm up to Rennac's level, for little payoff, really.

:facepalm:
You don't get it, do you? Would you be okay with leaving Matthew untrained just because Legault comes later despite there being a few instances where a trained Matthew helps a lot? ...No? There you go.

12 hours ago, Benice said:

He still does better than an untrained Colm-And there isn't a ton of incentive to train Colm given that there isn't much you need to raise him for to steal, (Fili shield being the only one, and he drops it regardless, and there aren't any good units who have access to bows as far as I recall.) He has higher avoid than Colm at base as well, and Colm needs about ten levels just to match base Rennac. Neither should really be used as combat units either way, really.

See above. Unless you like the thought of dragging a level 2 thief on a fog of war map, which I definitely don't.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

You don't get it, do you? Would you be okay with leaving Matthew untrained just because Legault comes later despite there being a few instances where a trained Matthew helps a lot?

Yes, because there is absolutely no reason to actually meaningfully train Matthew given that 

  1. Thief and Assassin are both bad combat classes,
  2. There is a better thief to train if I feel the need to have one fight,
  3. He needs no stats to do anything-I think he can steal the guiding ring and elysian whip at base, since most enemies throughout the course of HHM have 9 AS-Matthew has 11 speed at base and will therefore have no issues stealing everything you need.
2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

See above. Unless you like the thought of dragging a level 2 thief on a fog of war map, which I definitely don't.

Because Rennac can do that job without needing the investment? Rennac can handly going to the chests on the right of ch. 19 without being escorted, and the other side is where most likely your own units will all be, so it is no inconvenience to keep Colm behind your other units. Plus, you could even have Rennac get all the chests if you really wanted to. Besides, a Colm that is trained to, say, level ten, will be marginally worse than a 10/1 Colm, since Rogue doesn't add anything new to the mix aside from the Pick skill, and I don't think lockpick uses are a problem usually.

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Also, while Hero Ross isn't faster than Berserker Ross, it doesn't require me to deliberately screw over a better unit to access.

But Colm doesn't need to promote to do stuff-Even if you insist on training him, he'll be okay as a thief for the whole game. He has high enough growths that he can handle himself well without needing promotion, since he is a utility unit. For Colm, rogue is largely superfluous, since he'll never need stats to do his job. Maybe a few levels aren't out of place, but the use that Colm gets from promotion is a lot less than what Ross would. If Rogue granted an extra point of movement or provided a mount, maybe. But the fact is that Rogue is just thief with more levels, (I like the class still) and there is only one ocean seal. Hero doesn't actually have any advantages on Berserker, and Rogue doesn't have any advantages on thief.

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Also, I don't really see the higher strength cap Berserker has as very important, given that main-game wise, it won't matter.

Depending on when you promoted Ross, he will gain 3-5 extra points of strength as a berserker vs. As a hero. (He caps strength as a 10/17/9 hero, and while that is a high level, it is not a far cry.) I'd also say that Hero crests are more contested, (IIRC there are two) as both Gerik and Garcia are strong candidates for it and actually need it, whereas Ross can use the mildly contested ocean seal to reach his best class.

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2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

it doesn't require me to deliberately screw over a better unit to access.

How is Colm a better unit? Colm has strength problems, no 1-2 range, a weaker weapon type, and even less durability. The only advantage Colm has over Ross is speed, and Ross' speed as I find is just fine, and he only has problems doubling mercs and myrmidons if you give him Amelia's speedwing, he will have 12 speed as a level 12 pirate, which is incidently Seth's base speed, and is enough to double most things at that point in the game. When Ross doubles he kills, but Colm doesn't kill even if he doubles. Not only this but hero crests are contested by multiple units, for example Garcia, who is considered superior to Ross, so it is deliberately screwing over another unit. Garcia gets much more from his +2 hero speed then Colm does from his +1 str and pick skill.

 

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Also, while Hero Ross isn't faster than Berserker Ross

Actually, I would argue that in a sense, Berserker Ross is faster. Ross' promotion to a pirate gives him +1 speed, while fighter gives him none. This means that pirate Ross has a 1 speed advantage over Fighter Ross for the maps when he is unpromoted. This is a part of the game that should not be ignored, as it is when Ross is just beginning to become useful. This 1 speed helps him double more which is a big problem for Ross, and it helps train him. Not only this but Pirate Ross can promote 1 chapter before fighter Ross, giving him a two speed advantage for a chapter. 

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

See above. Unless you like the thought of dragging a level 2 thief on a fog of war map, which I definitely don't.

It's not that hard. I've done it before. Not only this but if you look at the map and have another unit use a torch turn 1 when there is not combat to be done, then you can see where most of the enemies are and it is pretty obvious where the boss is, so you don't even need Colm to locate him. There aren't any stealables on this map either, so there's no point for that.

 

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On 9/30/2020 at 2:11 PM, Benice said:

Yes, because there is absolutely no reason to actually meaningfully train Matthew given that 

  1. Thief and Assassin are both bad combat classes,
  2. There is a better thief to train if I feel the need to have one fight,
  3. He needs no stats to do anything-I think he can steal the guiding ring and elysian whip at base, since most enemies throughout the course of HHM have 9 AS-Matthew has 11 speed at base and will therefore have no issues stealing everything you need.

Unfortunately, Matthew can't steal the Silver Card or Zoldam's Guiding Ring if you foolishly neglect him. So no, he won't have no issues stealing everything I need. There's also the fact that Matthew is literally one of the only two units you get in Hector's first chapter; needless to say, having an untrained Matthew makes things much harder than they need to be. I know you get off on making things harder for yourself than they need to be, but this is stupidiculous.

On 9/30/2020 at 2:11 PM, Benice said:

Because Rennac can do that job without needing the investment? Rennac can handly going to the chests on the right of ch. 19 without being escorted, and the other side is where most likely your own units will all be, so it is no inconvenience to keep Colm behind your other units. Plus, you could even have Rennac get all the chests if you really wanted to. Besides, a Colm that is trained to, say, level ten, will be marginally worse than a 10/1 Colm, since Rogue doesn't add anything new to the mix aside from the Pick skill, and I don't think lockpick uses are a problem usually.

Of course Rennac is gonna look good when you purposefully sandbag his competition. What did you expect? Regarding chapter 19, iirc, there are enemies on the way to the treasure chests on the right, meaning he with his cruddy stats is likely a dead duck if he doesn't have an escort. 

On 9/30/2020 at 2:24 PM, Hello72207 said:

How is Colm a better unit? Colm has strength problems, no 1-2 range, a weaker weapon type, and even less durability. The only advantage Colm has over Ross is speed, and Ross' speed as I find is just fine, and he only has problems doubling mercs and myrmidons if you give him Amelia's speedwing, he will have 12 speed as a level 12 pirate, which is incidently Seth's base speed, and is enough to double most things at that point in the game. When Ross doubles he kills, but Colm doesn't kill even if he doubles. Not only this but hero crests are contested by multiple units, for example Garcia, who is considered superior to Ross, so it is deliberately screwing over another unit. Garcia gets much more from his +2 hero speed then Colm does from his +1 str and pick skill.

Because he doesn't start majorly underleveled. Also, Ross has speed issues (which isn't helped by using axes), not to mention being weak defensively, meaning not unlike Garcia, the best I can get out of him against most units is a powerful single strike (AKA, typical axe infantry). Being slow and weak defensively is not a winning combination, last I checked.

On 9/30/2020 at 2:24 PM, Hello72207 said:

Actually, I would argue that in a sense, Berserker Ross is faster. Ross' promotion to a pirate gives him +1 speed, while fighter gives him none. This means that pirate Ross has a 1 speed advantage over Fighter Ross for the maps when he is unpromoted. This is a part of the game that should not be ignored, as it is when Ross is just beginning to become useful. This 1 speed helps him double more which is a big problem for Ross, and it helps train him. Not only this but Pirate Ross can promote 1 chapter before fighter Ross, giving him a two speed advantage for a chapter. 

Only slightly, and his con ruins it, as the moment he uses anything heavier than an iron axe, that 1 speed lead goes away.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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58 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Unfortunately, Matthew can't steal the Silver Card or Zoldam's Guiding Ring if you foolishly neglect him.

He can steal both, actually-Zoldam's Luna weighs him down to 7 AS, and Aion's Elfire brings him to 10 AS. (Unless stealing is based on Speed rather than AS, in which case Matthew needs a grand total of four levels to steal both. That is hardly any work at all.) There is a difference between untrained and completely not using. I never stated "Matthew should never ever be given a level" I said that

On 9/30/2020 at 12:11 PM, Benice said:

there is absolutely no reason to actually meaningfully train Matthew

which means, there is no reason to train him to level 20 or even level ten and promote him when I could be instead using non-utility units for combat. Matthew does not warrant being fed many levels.

58 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I know you get off on making things harder for yourself than they need to be, but this is stupidiculous.

There is exactly one map where Matthew should really be close to the combat, that being ch. 11. In every other map, you have ample amounts of units to protect him, and feeding him a few levels in the first three or four maps then having him avoid combat for the next while is not that difficult.

58 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Of course Rennac is gonna look good when you purposefully sandbag his competition. What did you expect?

Of course Seth is gonna look good when you purposefully sandbag his competition. What did you expect?

58 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Regarding chapter 19, iirc, there are enemies on the way to the treasure chests on the right, meaning he with his cruddy stats is likely a dead duck if he doesn't have an escort. 

I believe that there are three fighters, then Generals as reinforcements starting at turn eight or nine. Rennac has the stats to survive at least three rounds of combat from the fighter without needing any stat boosters at all. His extra vision range also saves you a torch staff use that can instead be used to illuminate another part of the map.

58 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Because he doesn't start majorly underleveled.

Level 2 and 4 base strength is not a good place to start. Not to mention that Ross will always have free chipping exp via his hatchet, and can therefore be trained quite easily. The monster map is also free real estate for him. Colm is a little bit better at base, but the lack of gaining about half a level with every attack, 1-2 range and reason to promote kinda sinks him, whereas Ross will eventually be a potent offensive threat. Ross has potential, whereas Colm really doesn't. Promotion does literally nothing to improve Colm aside from minor stat gains that he doesn't need since his job is to open chests.

58 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Only slightly, and his con ruins it.

Much like with Hero, 'Zerker actually is equivocal. Fighter gives Ross 3 con, whereas pirate gives him 2. Both allow him to use iron axes unimpeded, and fighter allows him to use hand axes unimpeded as well, but Pirate's boost to speed that fighter lacks balances this out. Berserker then gives Ross an additional point that Hero doesn't, so it is the same.

After promotion, he can use hand axes unimpeded, and Pirate!Ross will be as fast as Fighter!Ross even when using a hand axe.

58 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

best I can get out of him against most units is a powerful single strike, not to mention being weak defensively. Being slow and weak defensively is not a winning combination, last I checked.

He'll still get more attacks in than Colm because he has 1-2 range and Ross will quickly surpass Colm in terms of physical bulk, if only because he levels faster, and Ross has promotion bonuses at level 10 to look forwards to. Colm and Ross actually have the same defensive stat growths, though.

Edited by Benice

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59 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Of course Rennac is gonna look good when you purposefully sandbag his competition.

If you disarm Seth and don't use him for the entire game, Franz is a lot better.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

that Matthew is literally one of the only two units you get in Hector's first chapter

The way I play chapter 11, it's completely reliable, and Matthew enters maybe one round of combat the entire map.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

there are enemies on the way to the treasure chests on the right

Not till like turn 5, which you can easily dispatch 1 unit and choke the point for him. Send a unit with a chest key for the other chests or the rescue staff, and continue playing the chapter.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Because he doesn't start majorly underleveled.

Neither one kills for a long time due to Colm having 4 strength, and it's a lot easier for Ross to get to doubling rate then Colm to a high enough strength. Ross' strength will be high enough that when he doubles, he will kill, but Colm needs a lot of strength to ever kill. Not to mention that Ross has easy 1-2 chip that gives him large amounts of xp, but Colm has to have an enemy weakened enough that he doesn't take a counter due to having no durability. 

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Being slow and weak defensively is not a winning combination, last I checked.

Colm has a whopping 18 hp and 3 defense at base, which last I checked isn't tanking anything either. Being weak physically and defensively isn't a winning combination either, and Ross has the option to attack from two range with his hatchet or a hand axe to avoid counters.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Only slightly, and his con ruins it, as the moment he uses anything heavier than an iron axe, that 1 speed lead goes away.

Yes, but with that iron axe, he has the speed lead. Fighter cannot do anything to have a speed lead on Pirate, and Ross is most likely gonna only be using Iron axes and a hand axe or hatchet for 1-2 range, and the hatchet doesn't weigh him down if he needs every point of speed he's got.

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15 hours ago, Hello72207 said:

If you disarm Seth and don't use him for the entire game, Franz is a lot better.

That's a blatant strawman.

15 hours ago, Hello72207 said:

Not till like turn 5, which you can easily dispatch 1 unit and choke the point for him. Send a unit with a chest key for the other chests or the rescue staff, and continue playing the chapter.

I was talking about other enemies, not thieves.

15 hours ago, Hello72207 said:

Neither one kills for a long time due to Colm having 4 strength, and it's a lot easier for Ross to get to doubling rate then Colm to a high enough strength. Ross' strength will be high enough that when he doubles, he will kill, but Colm needs a lot of strength to ever kill. Not to mention that Ross has easy 1-2 chip that gives him large amounts of xp, but Colm has to have an enemy weakened enough that he doesn't take a counter due to having no durability. 

I don't know about you, but low speed is much, much more crippling than low strength. Anyway, I can't expect Ross to double anything that isn't either cannon fodder, an armor, or massively weighed down any time soon. Just to put things into perspective, assuming he gets into an actual class in chapter 5, he doubles the soldiers (which are cannon fodder), and nothing else (and even that's dependent on him not being weighed down).

15 hours ago, Hello72207 said:

Colm has a whopping 18 hp and 3 defense at base, which last I checked isn't tanking anything either. Being weak physically and defensively isn't a winning combination either, and Ross has the option to attack from two range with his hatchet or a hand axe to avoid counters.

Ross is even worse off, with only 3 speed meaning he is not very likely to dodge if he is attacked. Being weak defensively isn't so crippling when you're fast and can thus be reasonably expected to dodge, but when you're a slug, which GBA fighters, Ross included, tend to be, it's really bad.

15 hours ago, Hello72207 said:

Yes, but with that iron axe, he has the speed lead. Fighter cannot do anything to have a speed lead on Pirate, and Ross is most likely gonna only be using Iron axes and a hand axe or hatchet for 1-2 range, and the hatchet doesn't weigh him down if he needs every point of speed he's got.

Fair, though even then, I don't see that making any meaningful difference.

16 hours ago, Benice said:

He can steal both, actually-Zoldam's Luna weighs him down to 7 AS, and Aion's Elfire brings him to 10 AS. (Unless stealing is based on Speed rather than AS, in which case Matthew needs a grand total of four levels to steal both. That is hardly any work at all.) There is a difference between untrained and completely not using. I never stated "Matthew should never ever be given a level" I said that

On 9/30/2020 at 2:11 PM, Benice said:

there is absolutely no reason to actually meaningfully train Matthew

which means, there is no reason to train him to level 20 or even level ten and promote him when I could be instead using non-utility units for combat. Matthew does not warrant being fed many levels.

https://serenesforest.net/the-sacred-stones/miscellaneous/calculations/
This is for Sacred Stones, but I'd consider it safe to assume that the stealing formula is no different than in Blazing Blade.

16 hours ago, Benice said:

There is exactly one map where Matthew should really be close to the combat, that being ch. 11. In every other map, you have ample amounts of units to protect him, and feeding him a few levels in the first three or four maps then having him avoid combat for the next while is not that difficult.

Again, what the hell do I gain from crippling myself like this? Nothing.

16 hours ago, Benice said:

Of course Seth is gonna look good when you purposefully sandbag his competition. What did you expect?

I'm not going to dignify this flagrant strawman with a response.

16 hours ago, Benice said:

I believe that there are three fighters, then Generals as reinforcements starting at turn eight or nine. Rennac has the stats to survive at least three rounds of combat from the fighter without needing any stat boosters at all. His extra vision range also saves you a torch staff use that can instead be used to illuminate another part of the map.

If I'm not wrong, the enemies in the southeast from the throne are a druid and two fighters. Either fighter and the Druid hitting kills Rennac. The reinforcements you're talking about are not factors in this.

16 hours ago, Benice said:

Level 2 and 4 base strength is not a good place to start. Not to mention that Ross will always have free chipping exp via his hatchet, and can therefore be trained quite easily. The monster map is also free real estate for him. Colm is a little bit better at base, but the lack of gaining about half a level with every attack, 1-2 range and reason to promote kinda sinks him, whereas Ross will eventually be a potent offensive threat. Ross has potential, whereas Colm really doesn't. Promotion does literally nothing to improve Colm aside from minor stat gains that he doesn't need since his job is to open chests.

3 speed and level 1 trainee is even worse, as I see it, largely because speed is the most important stat in Fire Emblem. Also, what potential Ross has to be a potent offensive threat is blunted because he's a slow foot axe. To put things into perspective, an early promoted Berserker Ross ends up being Dozla lite (except with much less HP and much more luck), which I consider really lousy considering the investment needed. What's more, pretty much everyone excels on the monster map, because revenants are the very definition of cannon fodder.

16 hours ago, Benice said:

Much like with Hero, 'Zerker actually is equivocal. Fighter gives Ross 3 con, whereas pirate gives him 2. Both allow him to use iron axes unimpeded, and fighter allows him to use hand axes unimpeded as well, but Pirate's boost to speed that fighter lacks balances this out. Berserker then gives Ross an additional point that Hero doesn't, so it is the same.

After promotion, he can use hand axes unimpeded, and Pirate!Ross will be as fast as Fighter!Ross even when using a hand axe.

Not quite; hand axes are 12 weight.

16 hours ago, Benice said:

He'll still get more attacks in than Colm because he has 1-2 range and Ross will quickly surpass Colm in terms of physical bulk, if only because he levels faster, and Ross has promotion bonuses at level 10 to look forwards to. Colm and Ross actually have the same defensive stat growths, though.

Fair, but once again, an early promoted Ross isn't anything to write home about stat wise. Also, thieves get boosted experience.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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