After watching a Verdant Wind playthrough online, I have to say... (spoilers for the entire route!)

[vikingsfan92]

1 hour ago, ChaosStar0 said:

Because he is using them. That was pretty explicitly stated that he wanted to use the Church to give his side more legitimacy. It's just another scheme. He doesn't side with Edelgard because she was responsible for the war, and he never wanted a war.

 He also straight out says Edelgard acted before he could put his own plan in motion. We never get to see if his original plan involved going to war or not because his plan no longer worked because another plan was enacted first that makes his prep no longer work. Just because his plans were interrupted doesn't mean he wasn't planning a war himself. All it means he just had to adjust to the war happening before his own prep was complete. Not sure I like saying his scheme is benevolent when we don't even know the full extent of said plan was.

Lastly I just want to say keep in mind that even if he didn't want war and Edelgard didn't exist period TWSID still exists and has agents in all factions so they could easily spin his actions to the point of making a war happen.  

[DriftingWaterBottle]

20 hours ago, vikingsfan92 said:

Despite all of its flaws I actually do like VW slightly more than AM. I know that's a bit of a hot take but AM is too all in on Dimtri and not enough on the supporting cast.  I have more issues with AM but since this is a VW thread I will leave it at that for now.  My biggest complaint with VW is probably a more personal one and one that people may not be agreed on by everyone.

Personally I think a route split might fit even better with the golden deer than it does with the Black Eagles (SS still sucks in my personal opinion).  Claudes whole story gimmick for the war is he is pretty much a neutral outsider and through out the game he seems to have issues with Rhea's actions at points.   As a more third party side in the war I think it would be more interesting if you get to choose what direction the outsider chooses to go in the war. Does the outsider leader go with the establishment (the church) or think things need to change like Emperor Edelgard wants? I don't think the outsider part of Claude was fully utilized and I think him having a decision on where to go with the war would be a way to play into the outsider angle more and give him more development more than just "lets stick with the church".  His alliance is also very divided on the topic in the game so either way he would have support in his country for it and have people with issues with the decision and that could be developed upon on more imo.  Even if you do stick with the church at least it should get more development on why.  And I think making a choice would give more development for Claude siding with the church.

tldr version: Basically I want more expansion on why Claude went the way he did when he is presented as the more neutral side.

I find a route split in VW an intriguing idea, like you stated. (As a side note, I'm personally even more down to an AM route split.) But I think Claude siding with Edelgard is probably a harder sell in the frame of VW, considering Claude's guarded and ambitious nature.

Because Claude wants to realise his dream on his own terms, I think it's reasonable to assume that Byleth is much easier to work with than Edelgard from his point of view. Claude spends a year with Byleth, which allows them to gradually open up and gain a certain trust with each other, even though it's not yet a full on trust when time-skip occurs. Byleth is shown to be not particularly ambitious. Moreover, when Byleth returns after 5 years, not only do they still retain the literal power of the goddess, but also got the political power of the Church passed onto them, which provides a reasonable power base for Claude to work with. 

In contrast, Claude's interaction with Edelgard during White Cloud is much more limited, and relatively hostile in nature as well. In the prologue, Edelgard was annoyed that Claude ran away which resulted to her initial plan going haywire (either assassination or to make Jeritza the new teacher). During the two mock battles, their exchanges are mostly superficial rivalry. Edelgard did attempt to establish a connection with Claude after Miklan mission, but it ended up an impasse, and I think they both understood from this exchange that they are both highly ambitious individuals and don't place their trust or compromise easily.

Furthermore, it seems to me that TWISTD was actively trying to isolate Edelgard and damage Flame Emperor's reputation starting from Chapter 6, right after Edelgard reaching out to Claude and Byleth in their respective routes. Although Claude is suspicious of the Church and Rhea throughout the game, none of their behaviours on the surface are as shocking and horrible as the Remire incident, and I have the impression that he more or less made up his mind afterward Remire that the Church is the lesser evil in comparison. Unlike Byleth in BE, Claude in VW part 1 doesn't get any insider hint of the behind-the-scene struggle between Edelgard and TWISTD, nor does he have sufficient knowledge or life experience in Fodlan to have a clear grasp of the crest/nobility system at the time. Moreover, Thomas previously provided Claude tidbits of Church's dark secrets. Once he revealed himself to be this evil shapeshifting figure, it's reasonable for Claude to consider whether they were trying to use him to destablize the Church, thus pushing him towards the Church instead. Once the war breaks out, since the Empire in VW uses Demonic Beasts, which is generally regarded as abhorrent behaviour in-universe, siding with the Church or as part of the resistance provides the advantage of being more morally appealing and easier to rally around, especially there's a realistic chance to succeed once Byleth returns.

So for Claude to be able to side with Edelgard in the frame of VW, I think there probably needs to be some trust established between Claude and Edelgard during part 1, such as a certain support level reached. There probably needs to be some other events as well, that make either of them realise that they can't achieve their respective ambition without cooperation and are willing to compromise for it. Unfortunately in other routes, Claude is shown to rather abandon ship to survive and fight another day, while Edelgard is stubborn to a fault to do it herself.

[Jotari]

31 minutes ago, DriftingWaterBottle said:

I find a route split in VW an intriguing idea, like you stated. (As a side note, I'm personally even more down to an AM route split.) But I think Claude siding with Edelgard is probably a harder sell in the frame of VW, considering Claude's guarded and ambitious nature.

Because Claude wants to realise his dream on his own terms, I think it's reasonable to assume that Byleth is much easier to work with than Edelgard from his point of view. Claude spends a year with Byleth, which allows them to gradually open up and gain a certain trust with each other, even though it's not yet a full on trust when time-skip occurs. Byleth is shown to be not particularly ambitious. Moreover, when Byleth returns after 5 years, not only do they still retain the literal power of the goddess, but also got the political power of the Church passed onto them, which provides a reasonable power base for Claude to work with. 

In contrast, Claude's interaction with Edelgard during White Cloud is much more limited, and relatively hostile in nature as well. In the prologue, Edelgard was annoyed that Claude ran away which resulted to her initial plan going haywire (either assassination or to make Jeritza the new teacher). During the two mock battles, their exchanges are mostly superficial rivalry. Edelgard did attempt to establish a connection with Claude after Miklan mission, but it ended up an impasse, and I think they both understood from this exchange that they are both highly ambitious individuals and don't place their trust or compromise easily.

Furthermore, it seems to me that TWISTD was actively trying to isolate Edelgard and damage Flame Emperor's reputation starting from Chapter 6, right after Edelgard reaching out to Claude and Byleth in their respective routes. Although Claude is suspicious of the Church and Rhea throughout the game, none of their behaviours on the surface are as shocking and horrible as the Remire incident, and I have the impression that he more or less made up his mind afterward Remire that the Church is the lesser evil in comparison. Unlike Byleth in BE, Claude in VW part 1 doesn't get any insider hint of the behind-the-scene struggle between Edelgard and TWISTD, nor does he have sufficient knowledge or life experience in Fodlan to have a clear grasp of the crest/nobility system at the time. Moreover, Thomas previously provided Claude tidbits of Church's dark secrets. Once he revealed himself to be this evil shapeshifting figure, it's reasonable for Claude to consider whether they were trying to use him to destablize the Church, thus pushing him towards the Church instead. Once the war breaks out, since the Empire in VW uses Demonic Beasts, which is generally regarded as abhorrent behaviour in-universe, siding with the Church or as part of the resistance provides the advantage of being more morally appealing and easier to rally around, especially there's a realistic chance to succeed once Byleth returns.

So for Claude to be able to side with Edelgard in the frame of VW, I think there probably needs to be some trust established between Claude and Edelgard during part 1, such as a certain support level reached. There probably needs to be some other events as well, that make either of them realise that they can't achieve their respective ambition without cooperation and are willing to compromise for it. Unfortunately in other routes, Claude is shown to rather abandon ship to survive and fight another day, while Edelgard is stubborn to a fault to do it herself.

You say limited, I say practically non existent. IMO Claude should have been trying to work his way into Edelgard's pants in part 1. What better way to unite the continent than through a political marriage between the two heirs of the major countries? 

[vikingsfan92]

1 hour ago, DriftingWaterBottle said:

I find a route split in VW an intriguing idea, like you stated. (As a side note, I'm personally even more down to an AM route split.) But I think Claude siding with Edelgard is probably a harder sell in the frame of VW, considering Claude's guarded and ambitious nature.

Because Claude wants to realise his dream on his own terms, I think it's reasonable to assume that Byleth is much easier to work with than Edelgard from his point of view. Claude spends a year with Byleth, which allows them to gradually open up and gain a certain trust with each other, even though it's not yet a full on trust when time-skip occurs. Byleth is shown to be not particularly ambitious. Moreover, when Byleth returns after 5 years, not only do they still retain the literal power of the goddess, but also got the political power of the Church passed onto them, which provides a reasonable power base for Claude to work with. 

In contrast, Claude's interaction with Edelgard during White Cloud is much more limited, and relatively hostile in nature as well. In the prologue, Edelgard was annoyed that Claude ran away which resulted to her initial plan going haywire (either assassination or to make Jeritza the new teacher). During the two mock battles, their exchanges are mostly superficial rivalry. Edelgard did attempt to establish a connection with Claude after Miklan mission, but it ended up an impasse, and I think they both understood from this exchange that they are both highly ambitious individuals and don't place their trust or compromise easily.

Furthermore, it seems to me that TWISTD was actively trying to isolate Edelgard and damage Flame Emperor's reputation starting from Chapter 6, right after Edelgard reaching out to Claude and Byleth in their respective routes. Although Claude is suspicious of the Church and Rhea throughout the game, none of their behaviours on the surface are as shocking and horrible as the Remire incident, and I have the impression that he more or less made up his mind afterward Remire that the Church is the lesser evil in comparison. Unlike Byleth in BE, Claude in VW part 1 doesn't get any insider hint of the behind-the-scene struggle between Edelgard and TWISTD, nor does he have sufficient knowledge or life experience in Fodlan to have a clear grasp of the crest/nobility system at the time. Moreover, Thomas previously provided Claude tidbits of Church's dark secrets. Once he revealed himself to be this evil shapeshifting figure, it's reasonable for Claude to consider whether they were trying to use him to destablize the Church, thus pushing him towards the Church instead. Once the war breaks out, since the Empire in VW uses Demonic Beasts, which is generally regarded as abhorrent behaviour in-universe, siding with the Church or as part of the resistance provides the advantage of being more morally appealing and easier to rally around, especially there's a realistic chance to succeed once Byleth returns.

So for Claude to be able to side with Edelgard in the frame of VW, I think there probably needs to be some trust established between Claude and Edelgard during part 1, such as a certain support level reached. There probably needs to be some other events as well, that make either of them realise that they can't achieve their respective ambition without cooperation and are willing to compromise for it. Unfortunately in other routes, Claude is shown to rather abandon ship to survive and fight another day, while Edelgard is stubborn to a fault to do it herself.

He doesn't necessarily need more development with Edelgard to want to side with her. That is one route they could go of course (and slightly preferable imo) but the other is play even harder to Claude's established not so positive view of Rhea. You don't have to have a  good relationship to ally with someone you just have to have a common enemy or slightly prefer one side over the other.  It wouldn't take much changes to go either route with Claude and the golden deer imo.

[James Marshall]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

You say limited, I say practically non existent. IMO Claude should have been trying to work his way into Edelgard's pants in part 1. What better way to unite the continent than through a political marriage between the two heirs of the major countries? 

Since Edelgards a lady wouldn't he have been trying to work his way into her knickers rather then her pants?

[DriftingWaterBottle]

49 minutes ago, vikingsfan92 said:

He doesn't necessarily need more development with Edelgard to want to side with her. That is one route they could go of course (and slightly preferable imo) but the other is play even harder to Claude's established not so positive view of Rhea. You don't have to have a  good relationship to ally with someone you just have to have a common enemy or slightly prefer one side over the other.  It wouldn't take much changes to go either route with Claude and the golden deer imo.

I agree that one doesn't need to have a good relationship to ally with someone. Edelgard and TWISTD is a good example. In the frame of VW, with all the surface evidence pointing to Empire doing all the damage and being the aggressor, as well as the Church now leading by Byleth who is on good term with him, and Rhea out of the picture, I'd say siding with the Church is the safer and more logical choice for Claude. For him to side with Edelgard without any established trust, I think there needs to be significant rewrite to expose the Church much earlier and probably make Rhea more desperately clinging to power. But at the same time, Claude still didn't side with Edelgard even in CF after she sent out the manifesto about Church's wrongdoing, which probably implies that he's dead set to achieve his ambition on his own terms and is not inclined to cooperation/share power unless defeated.

Edited October 8, 2020 by DriftingWaterBottle

[SRPG Tryhard]

On 10/3/2020 at 7:27 PM, RainbowMoon said:

Dimitri's death feels like it was tacked on as an afterthought. No proper death scene, no final words, not even a cutscene still, but just a passing mention from Hilda that he died is such a disrespectful way to kill off a main lord character. At least CF gave him an on-screen death and some parting words with Dedue.

Dimitri's participation in the story feels like an afterthought in general. Even the whole deal with being Edelgard step sibling but she having "amnesia" about it feels like it was a plotpoint added after her story was finished.

[DriftingWaterBottle]

On 10/5/2020 at 11:22 PM, RainbowMoon said:

Ah, that's an interesting take! Makes a lot more sense imo than Byleth suddenly becoming Cyril/Catherine post-timeskip and fits right in with VW's theme of seeking the truth. I still think the sheer number of times she talks about Rhea is a bit excessive though. They should've dialed it back at least for VW.

I initially thought the Rhea bit standing out in VW is because it’s in contrast of Claude’s presence. But I recently came across a post on Reddit I think, that claimed that Rhea appeared 11 times in Byleth’s dialogues in VW, while only 2 or 3 times in SS (It’s possible that I misremember the exact number, but the gist should remain about the same). I browsed a bit on fedatamine, and lo and behold, it mostly checks out. There are already 7 or 8 times when Rhea’s name appears in Byleth’s dialogues (not including other characters’) before she’s rescued, while in SS there’s almost none appearing in those same chapters.
 

I guess in SS, there’s Seteth who’s eager to rescue Rhea, and Byleth appears also concerned about Edelgard. In contrast, Byleth has more connection to Rhea than Edelgard in VW, and Seteth has less presence, so the role to emphasise Rhea’s importance falls to Byleth. 

Edited October 10, 2020 by DriftingWaterBottle