Jump to content
Barren

How would you change Swordmaster in Three Houses?

Recommended Posts

7 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Wait, Swordmaster as better than Enlighted One? But E1 has more movement, spell utility, and a good mastery skill in Sacred Power. Not to mention, faster Authority growth. Both classes have Swordfaire. The only advantage I see in SM is Sword Crit +10 (and... slightly better speed and dex, I think?).

Even if you don't care for the spells and Sacred Power, it seems like Assassin would be better on the Professor than Swordmaster (maximum infantry mobility, utility skills). I'm curious what advantage you see in Swordmaster, as it stands.

Regardless, thanks for seconding my proposals!

Fetters of Dromi have her movement covered for me, and her spell list's pretty meh so I don't really use it. I agree that Sacred Power's a good skill to have, but you don't have to stay in EO to use it. I just smacked the Knowledge Gem on Byleth before chapter 12 and then used 13 to grind out mastery. Swordmaster had Sword Crit and EO didn't so I went with Swordmaster.

As for Assassin, I just didn't feel like training her in bows lol

I think on my next CF run though I'm gonna ditch the sword route entirely and go for Falcon Knight Byleth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/14/2020 at 12:53 AM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

The only advantage I see in SM is Sword Crit +10 (and... slightly better speed and dex, I think?).

0% vs 20%. 'Slightly'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/14/2020 at 8:08 AM, RainbowMoon said:

I think on my next CF run though I'm gonna ditch the sword route entirely and go for Falcon Knight Byleth.

Personally, I'm not sold on Falcon Knight Byleth (or flyer Byleth in general, for that matter, really) thanks to the need for faculty training, which is hard to reconcile when in general, my activity points are best spent on other things during part 1, and I'd also say ditching swords entirely is not smart because giving up Windsweep is a hard sell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, L3xandr3 said:

0% vs 20%. 'Slightly'.

I was referring to the stat mods. Enlightened One gives (+1), while Swordmaster gives (+4), in Speed, for a margin of 3. As for growths, how big of a difference is 20%, actually? That's an average of 1 point every 5 levels. Like, suppose Byleth is level 20 at the glow-up. And by the end of the game, they reach level 40. That means they're leveling 20 levels in one of these classes. On average, an SM Byleth will gain 4 more points of speed over this time than E1 Byleth. Combine with the base difference, that's a speed difference of 7 at the endgame (and 3 at the glow-up).

This is a not-insignificant difference, admittedly. Sure, on Maddening, Byleth is unlikely to avoid being doubled by sword infantry, Grapplers, and Falcon Knights. But this might help them against enemy spellcasters and mid-speed classes like Warriors and Paladins. Of course, it comes at a cost - lower movement, slower Authority gain, and no spell access. Personally, I prefer these three things over a slight (yet widening) advantage in Speed. But, to each their own.

Also, Assassin is even faster than SM (same 20%, but +5 instead of +4), so if you want to go all-in on their Speed, I see that class as preferable. Plus they don't have Swordmaster's movement struggle.

On 11/14/2020 at 9:08 AM, RainbowMoon said:

As for Assassin, I just didn't feel like training her in bows lol

I think on my next CF run though I'm gonna ditch the sword route entirely and go for Falcon Knight Byleth.

Hey, play how you like! I will say this, though - SM Byleth with the Fetters can get through 3 forest tiles in a turn. Assassin Byleth with the Fetters can cross 7 forest tiles in a turn. And while I never specialized them in Bows, I found the weapon type strong enough for ranged combat that they grew naturally in it (and you only need D+ to certify).

I used Falcon Knight Byleth on CF Hard, was very much a fan. Getting Flight and Lance ranks off the ground is tough, but once she's in Pegasus Knight, the sky is the limit. I still liked having Sword Prowess on her, as the Sword of the Creator is a good weapon, no matter how you swing it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Personally, I'm not sold on Falcon Knight Byleth (or flyer Byleth in general, for that matter, really) thanks to the need for faculty training, which is hard to reconcile when in general, my activity points are best spent on other things during part 1, and I'd also say ditching swords entirely is not smart because giving up Windsweep is a hard sell.

I didn't mean ditching swords, just the sword-based class path (Myrmidon, Merc/Thief, Swordmaster/Assassin, EO). Flyleth can still use the Sword of the Creator, and NG+ means getting her into the class isn't an issue if you got her as far as Pegasus (which a lot of people do just for Darting Blow) on your last run.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

I didn't mean ditching swords, just the sword-based class path (Myrmidon, Merc/Thief, Swordmaster/Assassin, EO). Flyleth can still use the Sword of the Creator, and NG+ means getting her into the class isn't an issue if you got her as far as Pegasus (which a lot of people do just for Darting Blow) on your last run.

As someone who despises female Byleth's design and thus will not be having a female Byleth ever, Falcon Knight is automatically off the table. That means that I'm stuck needing more faculty training to qualify for Wyvern, which I don't consider worth it.

Edited by Shadow Mir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

As someone who despises female Byleth's design and thus will not be having a female Byleth ever, Falcon Knight is automatically off the table. That means that I'm stuck needing more faculty training to qualify for Wyvern, which I don't consider worth it.

Ah, I'm the exact same way about male Byleth. Can't stand the bowl cut lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Personally, I'm not sold on Falcon Knight Byleth (or flyer Byleth in general, for that matter, really) thanks to the need for faculty training, which is hard to reconcile when in general, my activity points are best spent on other things during part 1, and I'd also say ditching swords entirely is not smart because giving up Windsweep is a hard sell.

The amount of faculty training needed to get to Pegasus Knight is very minimal: literally just two sessions gets you to E+, which is enough for a 60+% chance if you also train lances. Even MByleth only needs a maximum of 9 sessions to reach D+ for Wyvern, and you have a lot of game to get that, since you have to wait for Level 20 anyway. Flying training is also very useful on non-Azure Moon routes because getting to D unlocks Ingrid regardless of support level, who is both a solid recruit in her own right and gives you Luin + Galatea Pegasus Knights, one of the best flying battalions and B-rank battalions in general.

(You're also probably not getting Windsweep without a bunch of Faculty Training anyway... you probably need around 300 battles depending on your classes to reach A swords from battles alone.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

(You're also probably not getting Windsweep without a bunch of Faculty Training anyway... you probably need around 300 battles depending on your classes to reach A swords from battles alone.)

Can confirm, I don't think I've ever gotten Windsweep without NG+ lol

But yeah I second this, qualifying for a lower level flying class isn't an issue even for Byleth, and battles will basically be the main source of skill xp from then on

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

As someone who despises female Byleth's design and thus will not be having a female Byleth ever, Falcon Knight is automatically off the table. That means that I'm stuck needing more faculty training to qualify for Wyvern, which I don't consider worth it.

I take your point, but the design isn't nearly so egregious if you immediately switch her into the dress uniform costume (I think it's called Evening Wear or something similar).  It looks like actual, reasonable clothing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Anathaco said:

Can confirm, I don't think I've ever gotten Windsweep without NG+ lol

But yeah I second this, qualifying for a lower level flying class isn't an issue even for Byleth, and battles will basically be the main source of skill xp from then on

I've gotten Windsweep without needing NG+ because what I do eventually in my run is keep using swords regularly. Then when I recruited everyone (this was when I first did casual, currently on a maddening classic run right now), I just focus on swords and by early part 2 I got swords to A rank. Also, getting Byleth into a Flying class is really easy to do if you plan ahead. Yea you'll lose swordfaire as a Falcon Knight or Wyvern Lord, but being able to fly around, use windsweep then run off afterwards to safety has been one of my favorite hit and run strategies. Plus having 8 move, avoid +10 and canto is too good to pass up as opposed to being foot locked. I guess the only downsides of being a flier is that you can't take advantage of terrain bonuses and the selection of flying battalions is limited.

Edited by Barren

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/16/2020 at 1:21 AM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

As for growths, how big of a difference is 20%, actually? That's an average of 1 point every 5 levels. Like, suppose Byleth is level 20 at the glow-up. And by the end of the game, they reach level 40. That means they're leveling 20 levels in one of these classes. On average, an SM Byleth will gain 4 more points of speed over this time than E1 Byleth. Combine with the base difference, that's a speed difference of 7 at the endgame (and 3 at the glow-up).

Honestly, I don't like the 'average Stat at x Lv' thing people think of. Instead think of it like this: It makes it more likely to get that stat. Your more likely to get blessed if you have 50% Growth than with 20%. But, to each their own, eh? If you want to see it as the average, then do so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Barren said:

I guess the only downsides of being a flier is that you can't take advantage of terrain bonuses and the selection of flying battalions is limited.

You actually can take advantage of terrain: just dismount! The battalion part is fair though, of course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

You actually can take advantage of terrain: just dismount! The battalion part is fair though, of course.

Ahh you’re right. I didn’t think about that

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/17/2020 at 2:39 AM, L3xandr3 said:

Honestly, I don't like the 'average Stat at x Lv' thing people think of. Instead think of it like this: It makes it more likely to get that stat. Your more likely to get blessed if you have 50% Growth than with 20%. But, to each their own, eh? If you want to see it as the average, then do so.

Echo this. Especially in early game when your 20% SPD growth unit just don’t level up speed, while your 60% girls quickly avoid being doubled MOST OF THE TIME.

However to be fair, 50% or so growth also is easier to get screwed, but even then is better than a non-screwed 20%. At say 80% then it’s much better than 50% partly because less likely getting screwed.

Long story short is people ignoring standard deviation and only focus on average value, which is not what you want to do because the game is an organic process, not just arithmetic. Getting certain stat at certain time is important.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/16/2020 at 2:09 PM, RainbowMoon said:

Ah, I'm the exact same way about male Byleth. Can't stand the bowl cut lol

How come? Because imho, that's not nearly as egregious as having a bare midriff when you're supposed to be a professor (and this is coming from someone who normally has no issue with female characters wearing outfits that expose their midriff. That is largely because among other media I liked back then, one TV show I watched back then had the main characters often had such outfits either as their casual outfit or when transformed into fairies, or even both). 

On 11/16/2020 at 10:12 PM, SumG said:

I take your point, but the design isn't nearly so egregious if you immediately switch her into the dress uniform costume (I think it's called Evening Wear or something similar).  It looks like actual, reasonable clothing.

If it weren't for the fact that there were other perks that came with it, having to pay real money for female Byleth to get an outfit that's actually suited for teaching would just make me angry. Also, even with an an option to give her an outfit that doesn't suck, 3H is just not one of the relationship-heavy games where I actually would be okay with my character being a girl like Rune Factory 4 (and probably the upcoming 5) is.

On 11/16/2020 at 8:34 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

The amount of faculty training needed to get to Pegasus Knight is very minimal: literally just two sessions gets you to E+, which is enough for a 60+% chance if you also train lances. Even MByleth only needs a maximum of 9 sessions to reach D+ for Wyvern, and you have a lot of game to get that, since you have to wait for Level 20 anyway. Flying training is also very useful on non-Azure Moon routes because getting to D unlocks Ingrid regardless of support level, who is both a solid recruit in her own right and gives you Luin + Galatea Pegasus Knights, one of the best flying battalions and B-rank battalions in general.

(You're also probably not getting Windsweep without a bunch of Faculty Training anyway... you probably need around 300 battles depending on your classes to reach A swords from battles alone.)

Again, Pegasus Knight is only on the table if Byleth is female. Fair point on Ingrid, though. Unfortunately, recruiting her is the only purpose faculty training in flying is good for, far as I'm concerned.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/17/2020 at 3:39 AM, L3xandr3 said:

Honestly, I don't like the 'average Stat at x Lv' thing people think of. Instead think of it like this: It makes it more likely to get that stat. Your more likely to get blessed if you have 50% Growth than with 20%. But, to each their own, eh? If you want to see it as the average, then do so.

The thing is, though - let's talk about a Unit A with 40% Speed growth, and Unit B with 60% Speed growth. Over the course of 10 levels, there's a fair shot of the following occurring: Unit A gains 5 Speed, Unit B gains 5 Speed. In this case (A is slightly blessed, B is slightly cursed), the growth margin does nothing for B. And there's an equally fair shot of this: Unit A gains 3 Speed, Unit B gains 7 Speed. In this case (the opposite - A is slightly cursed, B is slightly blessed), the growth margin winds up "outperforming" expectations, so to speak. The most likely scenario, however (the average, so to speak), is that Unit A gains 4 Speed, and Unit B gains 6 Speed (neither Unit A nor Unit B is blessed or cursed). We shouldn't treat this outcome as definitive (outside of Fixed Mode, which should definitely return as an option, but I digress). But it's still the most likely outcome, and the average around which all other outcomes orbit. And if a 20% growth margin "outperforms" in one playthrough, it may just as easily "underperform" in the next.

8 hours ago, RaIsMyPet said:

Echo this. Especially in early game when your 20% SPD growth unit just don’t level up speed, while your 60% girls quickly avoid being doubled MOST OF THE TIME.

However to be fair, 50% or so growth also is easier to get screwed, but even then is better than a non-screwed 20%. At say 80% then it’s much better than 50% partly because less likely getting screwed.

Long story short is people ignoring standard deviation and only focus on average value, which is not what you want to do because the game is an organic process, not just arithmetic. Getting certain stat at certain time is important.

The last point is a very crucial one - hitting a growth proc early, and missing it later on, is much preferable to missing a growth proc early, and hitting it later on. I've found this to have a huge impact, for instance, on certain Dawn Brigade members in Radiant Dawn. Still, assuming we're not resetting for bad levels, there's no real way to account for this in stats discussion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

The thing is, though - let's talk about a Unit A with 40% Speed growth, and Unit B with 60% Speed growth. Over the course of 10 levels, there's a fair shot of the following occurring: Unit A gains 5 Speed, Unit B gains 5 Speed. In this case (A is slightly blessed, B is slightly cursed), the growth margin does nothing for B. And there's an equally fair shot of this: Unit A gains 3 Speed, Unit B gains 7 Speed. In this case (the opposite - A is slightly cursed, B is slightly blessed), the growth margin winds up "outperforming" expectations, so to speak. The most likely scenario, however (the average, so to speak), is that Unit A gains 4 Speed, and Unit B gains 6 Speed (neither Unit A nor Unit B is blessed or cursed). We shouldn't treat this outcome as definitive (outside of Fixed Mode, which should definitely return as an option, but I digress). But it's still the most likely outcome, and the average around which all other outcomes orbit. And if a 20% growth margin "outperforms" in one playthrough, it may just as easily "underperform" in the next.

The last point is a very crucial one - hitting a growth proc early, and missing it later on, is much preferable to missing a growth proc early, and hitting it later on. I've found this to have a huge impact, for instance, on certain Dawn Brigade members in Radiant Dawn. Still, assuming we're not resetting for bad levels, there's no real way to account for this in stats discussion.

I'm not arguing any of these points, I'm just saying that probability is a bitch. Averages will only sometimes be correct (Except for Fixed mode PoR). Neither my way or the averages are quite right, but the average is all we have to go on, seeing as my way is quite abstract.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/18/2020 at 1:35 PM, Shadow Mir said:

How come? Because imho, that's not nearly as egregious as having a bare midriff when you're supposed to be a professor (and this is coming from someone who normally has no issue with female characters wearing outfits that expose their midriff. That is largely because among other media I liked back then, one TV show I watched back then had the main characters often had such outfits either as their casual outfit or when transformed into fairies, or even both). 

Well, this is a video game we're talking about. Impractical outfits are pretty much the law of the land. I mean, look at Edelgard and Dimitri. Those billowy-ass cloaks would get them both dead in the first minute of battle irl. Not to mention others like Dorothea and Marianne who are fighting in elaborate floor-length gowns. I know they're mages, but that's still hella risky when one unexpected trip or snag could spell death. Byleth's outfit is far from the worst in that regard. If you just mean that she's dressed unprofesionally, take a look at Manuela. Garreg Mach clearly has no formal dress code for their faculty lol

As for Guyleth, I just think his design is ugly. The bowl cut, edgy black clothes and perpetual frown just don't look good to me. I prefer "prettier" male characters like Yuri. But each to their own fashion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/22/2020 at 2:42 PM, RainbowMoon said:

Well, this is a video game we're talking about. Impractical outfits are pretty much the law of the land. I mean, look at Edelgard and Dimitri. Those billowy-ass cloaks would get them both dead in the first minute of battle irl. Not to mention others like Dorothea and Marianne who are fighting in elaborate floor-length gowns. I know they're mages, but that's still hella risky when one unexpected trip or snag could spell death. Byleth's outfit is far from the worst in that regard. If you just mean that she's dressed unprofesionally, take a look at Manuela. Garreg Mach clearly has no formal dress code for their faculty lol

As for Guyleth, I just think his design is ugly. The bowl cut, edgy black clothes and perpetual frown just don't look good to me. I prefer "prettier" male characters like Yuri. But each to their own fashion.

I can understand why Manuela dresses like that, though. Byleth has no rational excuse I can think of. An outfit being impractical is one thing, but that takes a running leap over the line right into "what the hell were the devs thinking?!!?" territory, especially as everything about female Byleth's design just screams "unappealing". If I saw a professor dressed like that in real life, I'd expect to hear complaints.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

If I saw a professor dressed like that in real life, I'd expect to hear complaints.

You'd hear them about Manuela too, cause she shows off way more skin than Byleth. She wouldn't get a free pass irl just because she's having a mid-life crisis. There are clear rules about what you can and can't wear to work, and having an excuse like Manuela's doesn't mean you're just allowed to break them. My point was that Garreg Mach doesn't seem to have any such rules, seeing as everyone's perfectly fine with Byleth and Manuela dressing the way they do.

Now if you just don't like female Byleth's design because in your opinion it doesn't look good, then that's a completely different story. I already said the same exact thing about male Byleth. But applying real life rules to the way a fictional character chooses to dress isn't a good argument.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not to be a buzz kill or anything but since when did this go from talking about what to do about swordmaster to byleth’s and manuela’s designs in the game?

I guess if we’re going to talk about designs for a second I suppose they would raise an issue in today’s world. Especially those Twitter puritans that like to bash people for dressing up like that and look good doing it. Sorry for the minor rant on my part

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Barren said:

Not to be a buzz kill or anything but since when did this go from talking about what to do about swordmaster to byleth’s and manuela’s designs in the game?

I guess if we’re going to talk about designs for a second I suppose they would raise an issue in today’s world. Especially those Twitter puritans that like to bash people for dressing up like that and look good doing it. Sorry for the minor rant on my part

Yeah, sorry for derailing for a bit there. I just feel like Byleth's design gets way more flak than it deserves, considering this is a fantasy world we're talking about where outfits clearly aren't meant to be realistic. But then again, I'm the odd one who actually likes her Enlightened One design for how hilariously tacky and over-the-top it is lol

Anyway, so far I agree with the points @Shanty Pete's 1st Mate brought up. I think the problem with Swordmaster is that, unlike Assassin or Sniper, it just doesn't carry itself well enough for a final class. But for anyone not named Byleth, it's the only purely sword-based final class available. Higher mov, a stronger combat art and Avoid +10 would give SM so much more to work with, especially when combined with Vantage/Wrath antics or Sword Avoid +20.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not to be a buzz kill either, but I noticed that if you "fix" swordmaster, then maybe you balance the class better, but make broken units more broken (or at least enhance them): just look at units good at swords: Byleth, lords, Felix, Petra, Catherine, or even Ingrid (who can really use more kill power).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...