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Benice

Rate the Unit-Three Houses, Day 0

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A while back on SF, these used to be a thing, and I realized we didn't yet have one for Three Houses. So, welp, I decided to make one! This is a bit more of an interest check/feedback regarding which difficulty that units should be based on. I really liked these threads, so here we goo!

 

 

 

Rules

- Ratings are assumed to be on Hard/Maddening Mode. Also, they should be based on when the unit is first available. (When rating a unit, please specify whether you are rating assuming Hard or Maddening.)

- Votes need some explanation regarding their gameplay performance to be counted (unless they fall into the general parameters of the average rating, but reasoning is still strongly encouraged on those even if you just wanna quote people) — incredibly low scores or high scores without proper justification will not be counted. Don't put in some random text thinking it'd count as justification. Put in at least a little thought and give REAL reasoning.

- Numbers for votes, please - not something like "Marcus/10", etc. Proper Justification will be determined by me and whoever decides to help, whether it be Iris and Lumi again or someone else.

+/- ≤1 point extra regarding personality/appearance is okay, but no more.

- Votes out of 10, or something proportional to it. Makes it easy to calculate, please and thank you~!

-The rating you give to a unit assumes a good build for said unit-Please nothing among the lines of, "Dedue is 2/10 because he's a bad mage."

-The ranking assumes no healer abuse or other forms of grinding (other than aux. Battles) , no DLC and minor, (one or two stat boosters per month) use of the Greenhouse.

- Make votes easily visible, please! "[Explanation text]: So, overall, I think X unit is a 7.5/10, with a +1 bias included for being hawt/cute/funny/etc.."

- Every ranking phase ends approximately at 20:00 PST. Do the math for your timezone, please!

-We will ask you to not use the "Not X unit" reason. Because it will be used a lot. I.E, do not say "Linhardt bad because not Lysithea."

 

I plan to start this probably on Friday or something! Suggestions and feedback are welcome.

Edited by Benice

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Sounds good, I'm surprised we haven't done this before. Thanks for running this.

I definitely agree on rating everyone based on their earliest availability, i.e. their own route, or AM/VW in the case of Catherine/Cyril. You can make a case for rating everyone on their best route although that's largely the same (I've seen some people argue Ingrid is a bit better out-of-house, dunno if I agree, should be about the same score IMO). I also think an attempt should be made to rate characters based on good builds for them, to avoid things like "I made ____ a [insert bad class for them here] and they were bad, 3/10".

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4 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I also think an attempt should be made to rate characters based on good builds for them,

Oh yeah, good idea. I'll add that to the OP. Even though my Warrior Lysithea is easily my best unit...

Speaking of, do you think it should be based on Hard or Maddening? (Or maybe both?)

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28 minutes ago, Benice said:

Speaking of, do you think it should be based on Hard or Maddening? (Or maybe both?)

I’d say Hard because it’s fairer and more people have played it, but I’ve never participated in one of these before. Is that bad logic?

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I legit had the idea of starting this around when I cared a lot about the game and its Maddening meta, as I also miss these threads. Heck, Heroes had a Rate That Unit thread for a while, so why not this game? However, with Three Houses, there was clearly no consensus among tier lists about what optimized play was or how much (and what sorts of) grinding and save scumming was allowed. Since most players (including myself) tended to indulge without ever thinking about it. DLC was also throwing consistent wrenches into the equation - if the player has DLC or access to online connectivity, what features if any do they ignore for the sake of fairness? Altogether, I couldn't put together a set of rules that were satisfyingly fair yet I could imagine people playing the game under. Plus viability of some units tends to depend much on route and not everybody had played or intended to play each route. Rulings for characters like Hilda especially seemed like an imminent issue of users talking about two (or three) different units entirely. In Hilda's case, Amazing on Verdant Wind, perfectly okay on AM, unavailable on CF, and near-garbage on SS.

Regarding rulings, the only one I'd passionately agree on is Maddening difficulty. Yes I know it's a polarizing mode that not everybody enjoys, but in Hard mode, challenge is so muted that no character ultimately feels "under average", and even the worst builds you can think of will go off without a hitch if the lack of difficulty doesn't dull you into a state of complacency.

Edited by Glennstavos

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Three Houses is such a weird game to do ratings for, the way this game is it's mostly the player not the character I feel. Obviously there are characters like SS Cyril and Hilda that are rough, but other than that unit performance is very marginal. I mean I'll just provide my personal anecdotes.

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I'd be down to contribute to this, at least for the units I have a decent amount of experience with.

As for difficulty, I'd also say Maddening. I see the appeal of doing it on Hard, which more people may have played, but I agree that Maddening is typically a better judge of unit performance, because a) higher difficulty sorts out those builds that can truly shine against the game's strongest enemies, and b) in my experience at least, its easier to find stats for Maddening mode enemies online, so its easier to back up arguments using those stats instead of trying to find hard mode stats somewhere. That's just me though, I'm not particularly adverse to using hard mode if that proves to be more popular.

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Before this starts, I really think that Monastery Usage should really be more clarified. How much Aux Battles should be allowed, for example? Would Paralogues or Quest Battles be treated any differently? Should Fishing for Bullheads be accepted? What about for Professor Exp? Rigging for Promotions? Stat Boosters obtained through Gardening? And what of the DLC? 

I think that these questions should be answered from the onset, since those things can really effect how a unit can perform. Like participating in Aux Battles could mean the difference of learning Death Blow from 3-5 chapters to 1-2 chapters and can lead to really differing preceptives. 

Edited by LoneRecon400

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I'm exceedingly apprehensive about this. I mean, I was around back when RTUs were a thing, and to say things got heated was an understatement.

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9 hours ago, Benice said:

Speaking of, do you think it should be based on Hard or Maddening? (Or maybe both?)

Hard is the closest to the average difficulty that most people have played, so I say go with hard.

The best I can contribute is my own personal experiences, so hopefully that's okay.

Edited by twilitfalchion

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9 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Before this starts, I really think that Monastery Usage should really be more clarified. How much Aux Battles should be allowed, for example? Would Paralogues or Quest Battles be treated any differently? Should Fishing for Bullheads be accepted? What about for Professor Exp? Rigging for Promotions? Stat Boosters obtained through Gardening? And what of the DLC? 

Yeah, I'll put those up. I think I'll go assuming

  • Maddening and Hard, and people can give ratings for both difficulties so more people will participate.
  • No grinding/DLC, (aside from the DLC characters at the end)
  • No RNG abuse
  • Limited use of Greenhouse use-Maybe two stat boosters per month?
  • No NG+

And I think units should be assumed to be on their normal route-I.E, when Hilda is being rated, it assumes that you're on a VW run.

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3 minutes ago, Benice said:

No grinding

Does that mean no auxiliary battles at all? Or no intentional grinding of battle after battle?

Because I'd venture to say that most players have used those battles at one point or another.

Edited by twilitfalchion

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Just now, twilitfalchion said:

Does that mean no auxiliary battles at all? Or no intentional grinding of battle after battle?

Because I'd venture to say that most players have used those battles at one point or another?

Yeah, no auxillary, (Unless this isn't reasonable for maddening?) since grinding basically allows you to circumnavigate a unit's weaknesses, (such as Cyril's low bases) and quicker entry into good classes/mastery skills.

Even if you did use Aux battles in all of your playthroughs, you probably still have a good idea of what your units can do.

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I would personally allow for auxilliary battles since they come at the cost of motivating students, on top of all the other bonuses you get from choosing to explore. Furthermore, the enemy levels on auxilliary battles are so low in the mid and late stages of the game that you can't grind levels unless somebody is 5-10 behind your crew. Just class masteries and weapon ranks. Add to that the various quests that prompt you to do an auxilliary battle for some cash and items, and it's hard to put a fair limiter on it. On the other hand, the auxilliary battle quests are so frequent they pretty much made up the vast majority of auxilliary battles I've ever done on Maddening mode, so you could limit to those and the single forced auxilliary battle in Chapter 2. Does DLC add more auxilliary quests? I don't own it so I don't know all the details regarding what should be limited there. Just that the idea of having all those stat boosters and renown to spend on excellent items like the healing staff seemed pretty busted.

What I would ban above all is just the individual excessive grinding strategies. For instance leaving the priest alive when they've run out of spell charges (all priests on Maddening have renewal, and if it's any other class they may be an a healing tile for the same effect) and having your units flail at them with rusted/broken weapons for 90 turns (note that it's not infinite because if you can't clear a map in 99 turns, you game over and are forced to turn wheel backward and finish the map.). This is abusive even in the later stages of the game because auxilliary battle enemies don't keep up with you in level, you can grind out classes you didn't have time for previously like Soldier. Or pick up class certifications just for base stats like having your mages become armor knights for that 12 base defense without ever needing to be instructed in armor ranks. Not every auxilliary battle has a priest to exploit this way, but you can check back for free every in-game week, or clear one map without saving to see if the next one has a priest. And it's not just auxilliary battles. The Flayn/Seteth Paralogue is the best grinding map in the game as it includes numerous bishops on healing tiles to exploit that way (and it's also one of the easiest paralogues to clear the moment it appears)

Save scumming may also need to be addressed. I think I represent all of us when I shut the game off whenever I fail to certify into a class. Especially master classes, since those seals are not infinite at first. A lot of players also seem to save scum for better gardening rewards (stat boosters and more higher tiered seeds). 

Edited by Glennstavos

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3 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

would personally allow for auxilliary battles since they come at the cost of motivating students, on top of all the other bonuses you get from choosing to explore

Do you think assuming one aux Battle per month is reasonable, then? I haven't actually played Maddening, nor do I really like Three Houses, I just wanted to make one of these, so I don't know of the benchmarks of Maddening. 

 

6 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Save scumming may also need to be addressed. I think I represent all of us when I shut the game off whenever I fail to certify into a class. Especially master classes, since those seals are not infinite at first. A lot of players also seem to save scum for better gardening rewards (stat boosters and more higher tiered seeds). 

Huh. I guess I should permit that as well, then.

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2 minutes ago, Benice said:

Do you think assuming one aux Battle per month is reasonable, then? I haven't actually played Maddening, nor do I really like Three Houses, I just wanted to make one of these, so I don't know of the benchmarks of Maddening. 

Like I said I think auxilliary battles typically come at the cost of something better, so I wouldn't limit them at all. Just the broken/rusted weapon exploit since that doesn't necessarily happen just on auxilliary battles.

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3 hours ago, Benice said:

Limited use of Greenhouse use-Maybe two stat boosters per month?

For each unit? People will never agree on who is more deserving of two star boosters each month, unless it’s like... Ingrid’s strength, or something. How do we factor this in?

3 hours ago, Benice said:

And I think units should be assumed to be on their normal route-I.E, when Hilda is being rated, it assumes that you're on a VW run.

What do we do about Ashen Wolves and church members?

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1 minute ago, Glennstavos said:

Like I said I think auxilliary battles typically come at the cost of something better, so I wouldn't limit them at all. Just the broken/rusted weapon exploit since that doesn't necessarily happen just on auxilliary battles.

I'm curious, would you consider something like this to be a case of grinding? The player managed to master two classes in a single Aux Battle that would be difficult to master in regular battles, but they didn't resort to using broken weapons.  

I'm of the opinion that is grinding and would advocate for complete ban on Aux and Quest battles barring the merchant quest. But I imagine a lot of people wouldn't share the same stance.

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3 minutes ago, Sooks1016 said:

For each unit? People will never agree on who is more deserving of two star boosters each month, unless it’s like... Ingrid’s strength, or something. How do we factor this in?

Per month, not per unit. Part of what makes or breaks a unit is what they do with stat boosters-take Ross from FE8, as a loose example. Say he comes up one or two points of speed short of doubling, but his strength is high enough that anything he doubles dies. Thusly, he'd make very good use of speedwings, as it'd get him unto doubling range. If there was another unit who was also close to doubling but didn't have the power to ORKO either way, they wouldn't make good use of the speed boost. 

6 minutes ago, Sooks1016 said:

What do we do about Ashen Wolves and church members?

I intend to do the Ashen wolves after everyone else, which would obviously assume DLC. Undecided on church members, though.

 

6 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

I'm of the opinion that is grinding and would advocate for complete ban on Aux and Quest battles barring the merchant quest. But I imagine a lot of people wouldn't share the same stance.

How about a compromise and say two grind battles per month?

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9 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

I'm curious, would you consider something like this to be a case of grinding? The player managed to master two classes in a single Aux Battle that would be difficult to master in regular battles, but they didn't resort to using broken weapons.  

I'm of the opinion that is grinding and would advocate for complete ban on Aux and Quest battles barring the merchant quest. But I imagine a lot of people wouldn't share the same stance.

I think Rengor's allowed some excessive grinding when doing a 0% growths run. But yeah the concept of standing around letting four enemies wail on you each turn for class exp is pretty abusive. Even though he wasn't equipped with a broken weapon, he still equipped a weapon that could not counterattack for some turns, as well as luring enemies into forest tiles so that he would occasionally miss.

My argument in favor of auxilliary battles (but not excessive grinding within them) is that yeah you can get a lot of points for one individual unit if you only field them, but the enemies are finite. And exploration lets you motivate students and get skill ranks for as many as seven units. Plus a ton of professor exp that gets paid forward as well.

Edited by Glennstavos

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42 minutes ago, Benice said:

How about a compromise and say two grind battles per month?

Even that I wouldn't approve of. When it eventually only takes 25 battles to learn some of the best abilties in the game (Death Blow, Darting Blow, Hit +20), it really diminishes class management and makes it so that units never even have to fight in a class to master it.  

Plus it really skews a unit's skill exp. Even if a unit fought only 5 rounds of combat in a intermediate class, that's often more Skill Exp than they get from instructing. Add on the Knowledge Gem, and it's the main reason why some think S+ Skills are achievable when they're otherwise not very feasible for people who don't use Aux Battles or Sauna.

Edited by LoneRecon400

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2 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Even that I wouldn't approve of.

While I do agree with you, I think I shall stick with a compromse of 1/month to hopefully make more people more-or-less happy.

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58 minutes ago, Benice said:

I intend to do the Ashen wolves after everyone else, which would obviously assume DLC. Undecided on church members, though.

No I meant like what route would they be based off of, since you said students will be based off of the route that is their house although now that I think about it Black Eagles has two routes, maybe you just meant for Blue Lions and Golden Deer and I am le dumb xD

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Just now, Sooks1016 said:

No I meant like what route would they be based off of, since you said students will be based off of the route that is their house although now that I think about it Black Eagles has two routes, maybe you just meant for Blue Lions and Golden Deer and I am le dumb xD

Oh heck, you're riht about the BE having two routes! I assume I'll go with CF as the route of choice, since VW and SS are the same things. I'll probably also with with AM for the DLC characters?

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19 hours ago, Benice said:

Speaking of, do you think it should be based on Hard or Maddening? (Or maybe both?)

First you should choose one of the difficulties. A unit's viability in hard vs maddening differs a lot.

Ex. Annette's rallies are much more valuable in maddening vs hard, thus maddening ppl would rater her higher than hard ppl.

Imo do maddening. There is bigger differences in unit's viability in maddening compared to hard. So it helps make each unit's rating more unique.

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