Shadow Mir Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 On 10/17/2020 at 7:33 AM, mangasdeouf said: Laguz stones are useful if Laguz need to see immediate action. If they can wait until transformation or chomp one olivi grass and wait 2 turns, so they are transforming on turn 3, then they can reck shit as soon as turn 3. Between a Beorc who will be killed by a boss crit and a Laguz that will kill or simply deal 30-50% of the boss' HP without taking meaningful damage (11-33 is 23-60-ish % of Haar's HP pool just in 1 boss hit, sure Mordecai isn't available yet which I had forgotten but Haar can be 2HKOd by 3-2 boss while Mordy would be 4HKOd by the same boss, and later bosses have even more attack so the highest def/HP the better). Dude. Are you even talking about the same game I am? Because Haar is most definitely NOT 2HKOed by the boss in 3-2. Also, said boss is easily put in his place by a sword user - it doesn't matter how hard you can hit if you miss, after all. Also, the number of times bosses have crit chances that are actually worth worrying about is one I can count on one hand (2-3, 3-1, 3-4. All of whom are either melee locked or immobile). And if I did see a high crit boss, the absolute worst units to engage them with would be laguz, which are melee-locked. On 10/17/2020 at 7:33 AM, mangasdeouf said: (((Seth has 19-21 speed at best at level 20 (21 is massive RNG blessing and 45% has more chance of being RNG screwed than blessed). I think the heroes in chapter 17 have 18 speed, if not then the swordmasters and heroes in chapter 19 certainly do have 18 to 21 speed. If one of them has 21 speed, even capped Seth can't double them, thus he can't kill them in 1 rund and can also take a silver sword swordmaster crit (silver sword has like 13 damage, swordmasters have around 13-14 strength at least, which brings them to deal 26-27 damage minimum to Seth, -19 or 21 def =7-8 non crit, 5-6 if dragonshielded, or 21-24 on crit, 15-18 if dragonshielded). Seth can't do everything and if he only gets critted once and takes too many ennemies on the same turn (which can happen easily in ch19 due to ****ing FoW and massive ennemy density with reinforcements, and great knights who hit Seth deal at least 10 no crit damage to him, more probably 12-15). Seth is also vulnerable to beastkillers, halberds and zambato, there are like 3 zambato in Eirika's campaign from the beginning to the end, at least 2 halberds and 1 or 2 beastkillers, meaning Seth risks being gangbang killed up to 7x in the game just from effective weaponry, well make it 6 because in ch6 he probably won't die from it but without an elixir he can die if he doesn't heal before the boss who has like 11-12 damage on him with semi-reliable accuracy). Seth's caps limit him even if he gets all the legit stat boosters and in Seth Emblem he misses half of them because he doesn't loose turns and buy keys to open chests to find a +2 strength or +2 def item, which means he's also missing his only average caps by a few points. 14 res is not reliable when everything and its mother in endgame hits with 30-ish damage and 105+ accuracy, remember Seth's avoid is far from great with 37 base and an average of 55 avoid without boosters means he'll still take 40-ish accuracy ennemies, Lyon deals 50 to 55 damage, which means with a pure water and a talisman, Seth with S lances takes 50-13-7-2=28 damage, if his HP is lower than 57 he dies in 2 hits from Lyon and that's not counting stone and the minimum of 5 gorgons around Lyon who can add up damage, even if they don't move 2 of them can attack Seth wherever he is around the boss. With Audumla he only gains 5 res and still dies in 2 Lyon hits without 1 or 2 seraph robes. Seth isn't anything special, he's good but overrated as Seth Emblem is far from being optimal with the number of times he can die, and that's if he doesn't rescue Eirika. If he rescues her, his avoid drops to 26, which kills him. Lyon also has insane hit rate, Seth barely has 10% chance to dodge with his average speed. 17 luck isn't exactly safe either considering crit weapons and classes and it severaly gimps his avoid to not have 20-25 luck (which whould give him +3-8 avoid). Sorry for the long text, but I wanted to do this in only 1 paragraph because it's not on the topic itself.))) What's your point? Because I don't think you have much of one, as Seth can just chuck javelins at those units. Anyway, Zanbatos are weak, and Halberds are inaccurate. Besides, this is clearly off topic. On 10/17/2020 at 7:33 AM, mangasdeouf said: Volug is the unit who sees the highest number of fights alongside Nolan in DB, if he can't get to SS strike, Nolan can't get to SS axes. Nolan needs to level up 12-14 x and be promoted to reach Volug's base speed in half form. Volug has 1 more damage than base Nolan with steel axe and doubles every non-1-E boss ennemy at base with this damage, 0 investment, the only ennemies he doesn't kill in 1 round are generals and the boss of 1-E, maybe one or two ubber knights but if his strike rank already upgraded to S which he can do before the end of p1 since he's not wasting turns but saving them by being played the same way as Seth. What 2 range ennemies are you talking about? Laguz? randoms that ally units will dispose of? more Laguz? Volug's p3 is free because most of what he fights IS 1 range-locked. Zihark is also 1-range semi-locked, since wind adge is the literal worst 1-2 range weapon in the game and Zihark has nearly 20 HP less than Volug with no bonus to his underwhelming def (even Nolan tanks better without Tarvos than Zihark). If he doesn't face 0% chance to be hit, then he can be killed in 2 hits anytime in p3. Hint: Micaiah has less leadership stars than random bosses for all the game since she never gains any, correct me if I'm wrong. Meaning ennemies gain free hit and avoid bonuses while Zihark doesn't. Bosses and some randoms also benefit from chapter affinity bonuses for more bullshit hit and avoid. Base Volug also has 3 more speed than base Zihark in full form and 16 base def with 22 base strength, implying 31 attack. If I can transform him just in time to intercept the 1st or 2nd Laguz wave in p3 ch6, then no one has as much bulk + offense than he does. I try to expose him to 2 ennemies in a turtle formation while I try to expose Beorcs to only 1 ennemy each otherwise they become cat food. Nolan's stats reach base Volug's full form by level 20/14-20. Volug can also gain stats on level up and BEXP in best used on units who aren't guaranteed a 3 stat level up with chapter exp. Laguz aren't guaranteed a 3 stat level up with chapter exp, thus they benefit far more from BEXP than Beorcs with decent growths. Most DB units don't even cap anything in a plausible number of level ups so they don't want worse level ups, thus Volug benefits far more from a BEXP level up. Yesterday I killed the CH5 boss with Volug. Believe me or not, in normal mode, he gained around 25 experience from that shitty low level mage. If Seth can level up by boss killing only, so can Volug. The difference is that Seth isn't gaining experience like a mid tier 2 unit, and can retaliate against archers and mages, whereas Volug can do nothing if he's attacked by them. Also, Kryptonite is everywhere for laguz. On 10/17/2020 at 7:33 AM, mangasdeouf said: You mention Beorcs superiority a lot, but what you forget is that your Laguz are your best world enders. They have a few turns of insane combat. If you don't want to use an ultimate weapon for 2-3 turns just because it has to load beforehand and it has a cooldown, then don't. I will, because a weapon that will be 3x less likely to die than Beorcs while having much better combat when loaded is exactly what armies have been looking for at all times. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed with weapons that took years to develop, but this ended the war in 3 days. 1st day bomb, 2.5 waiting for a peace treaty that didn't come, 3rd day re-bomb, 2 days later the Japanese surrendered. good Laguz are nuclear bombs, they are not in ultimate mode all the time like you don't throw a nuclear bomb in every battle otherwise we would all be dead or not even born, but when a nuclear bomb if thrown, the battle is won. Throw you Laguz at the boss in kill the boss maps and there's no unit who will kill it faster and safer than them. Mordy is slow, but 1 speedwings and 1 speed level up (again you can reset as many times as you want without penalty in the preparations and get 1 speed point on him, with speedwings it brings him to 12 spd which equals 24 in tiger form, 24 doubles everything that Titania doubles at level 20 since she has the same spd as her cap) bring him in absolute double territory for most of p3 and if his strength is too low he can also get an energy drop. I don't care about giving ressources to an unit who uses them to be good and ease me some tight fights. if said unit is tankier than Haar at the same time when it's in ultimate mode, then I take it with open arms. Most of the time my stat boosters end up rotting in the supply for 80% of the game, might as well use them. The only laguz actually worth calling world enders are the royals, who are clearly in "purposefully overpowered" territory. Of course, that's why they're generally only usable in part 4, which is rout-heavy. The best way to clear rout maps is to have enemies suicide on a powerful unit; I'll grant, the laguz royals are certainly powerful enough as to fit the bill here, BUT.... They're still range-locked, which means that they won't have the most productive enemy phases; how powerful you are is meaningless when you end up in situations where you cannot counter, and they're pretty much Exhibit A as to this. Most non-royals pretty much require something tantamount to boss abuse to get anywhere, given that they level up much slower when transformed; this is a high-risk, low-reward proposition. And honestly, I would say it's not worth it, because aside from the exorbitant amount of effort needed (trying to make most non-royal laguz usable in RD feels more like trying to raise Larvesta in Pokemon BW), Kryptonite is everywhere to make life hard for laguz. On 10/17/2020 at 7:33 AM, mangasdeouf said: Volug reverts only if he's out of Olivi grass or if you kept Wildheart on him and manually revert+transform+attack or use healing item on PP. Yes, if you used Laguz you'd know that you can revert, transform back and use an action on the same turn, the only thing they can't do is moving after reverting or transforming, that would require canto (birds can though). Which means that transformed Volug is a more reliable and better overall unit than anything you can play in DB. If you fear him untransforming, just keep wildheart on him and give him 2 speed level ups at least so he reaches 22 which should double a tigers and maybe low level cats, or 3 speed level ups and he doubles nearly all ennemies in 3-6 except high end cats. with as much as a dragonshield, his def reaches 16 in half form, 22 in full form. If he can die, so could Tauroneo. Tauroneo is far from dying in one turn with inferior stats to base Volug in full form, thus Volug is far from dying in 1 turn (Volug at base in full form has 11 HP over Tauroneo and only 3 points less in def, becoming 1 more by eating a dragoshield for general level defense). If you want a comparison, base Volug with a dragonshield and S trike is about equal to base Gatrie with +6 speed, which would solo all of part 3 avoiding mages or engaging them to not take counter damage. If that's bad for you, then Beorcs are trash can fodder since they can't do what Base Volug does before Nolan caps his t2 speed and before anyone else is around 20/20. Volug with 3 BEXP +HP +lck +spd level ups reaches 24 speed in hakf form, 32 in full form. With white pool that's enough to double Asehra and I think it's also enough to double Lehran/Sephiran, but not the auras. With SS strike and base strength he has 41 attack on top of 32 speed. with an energy drop he has 40 attack with S strike or 45 with SS strike. That's 4 less than capped strength Alondite t3 swordies, and with S strike and red pool he has 45 attack with an energy drop. Now tell me that Laguz are shit, but no Beorc under t3 can do what Volug can with just 3 speed level ups and 1 stat booster. Needing to grass up to avoid reverting is a negative, no matter which way you slice it, because laguz already have worse enemy phases on account of being range-locked. Especially when laguz are seeing enough combat that most of what one use of olivi grass restores is wiped away, which, for most laguz, is not a lot (cats lose 5 gauge per turn and 4 per combat, meaning 2 enemies and a turn takes away almost all of what they gain from olivi grass; any more, and it's a net loss. Other laguz that aren't lions or dragons don't fare much better, losing 4 gauge per turn and 3 per combat). I also fail to see why laguz should be entitled to stat boosters when in practice, beorc make better use of them pretty much ten times out of ten. What's more, once again, I can savescum level ups to make pretty much anyone good. On 10/17/2020 at 7:33 AM, mangasdeouf said: Volug is lv 15 at base. He levels up in like 1300-1800 BEXP for the next 3 levels. You have far enough BEXP to give him 4500 BEXP and that's with 0 CEXP. Since he still gains CEXP for strike rank and since he gains 25-ish exp from the first boss kill, not counting any of the following bosses who should be higher level than him, he gets enough exp to level up 4 times easily without battling a single time in human form, just from some boss kills and BEXP. You can easily have 3000 BEXP in one chapter post-Daein trio's recruitment. If you don't use Meg, Fiona, Aran and Edward and have enough with Nolan, Sothe, Jill and Volug, then your BEXP can go mostly to Volug since others won't need it to level up and some 500-700 BEXP will be enough to put them to 91 exp most of the time. None of them benefit as much from BEXP as Volug, all of them gain more CEXP than him, and boss kills benefit Volug more than them if he isn't in level up range since he gains the most exp from it compared with mook kills (10-25 exp per kill on Beorcs, 1-2 on Volug most of the time, the boss gives him 10-25x more exp than the mooks, the others barely gain 3-5x more from bosskills than from mooks). If Sothe can level up, Volug can, the only advantage Sothe has is 10 exp per steal, but Sothe has 2 less movement than Volug and has several chapters running towards chests where he can't fight half the time and in 1-E he can die in 3 hits on top of having 5 chests to loot/thieves to loot them from. Better, Volug and Sothe mostly don't compete for experience since thief utility gives Sothe half the exp he gains in p1 and they part to each side of the map most of the time. Squandering what little BEXP you have at that point is not something I'd advise. I would also question giving Volug boss kills when the Daeins are already strapped for experience as is, and mismanaging exp is a very easy way to end up hitting a brick wall later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mangasdeouf Posted October 19, 2020 Author Share Posted October 19, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said: Dude. Are you even talking about the same game I am? Because Haar is most definitely NOT 2HKOed by the boss in 3-2. Also, said boss is easily put in his place by a sword user - it doesn't matter how hard you can hit if you miss, after all. Also, the number of times bosses have crit chances that are actually worth worrying about is one I can count on one hand (2-3, 3-1, 3-4. All of whom are either melee locked or immobile). And if I did see a high crit boss, the absolute worst units to engage them with would be laguz, which are melee-locked. What's your point? Because I don't think you have much of one, as Seth can just chuck javelins at those units. Anyway, Zanbatos are weak, and Halberds are inaccurate. Besides, this is clearly off topic. The difference is that Seth isn't gaining experience like a mid tier 2 unit, and can retaliate against archers and mages, whereas Volug can do nothing if he's attacked by them. Also, Kryptonite is everywhere for laguz. The only laguz actually worth calling world enders are the royals, who are clearly in "purposefully overpowered" territory. Of course, that's why they're generally only usable in part 4, which is rout-heavy. The best way to clear rout maps is to have enemies suicide on a powerful unit; I'll grant, the laguz royals are certainly powerful enough as to fit the bill here, BUT.... They're still range-locked, which means that they won't have the most productive enemy phases; how powerful you are is meaningless when you end up in situations where you cannot counter, and they're pretty much Exhibit A as to this. Most non-royals pretty much require something tantamount to boss abuse to get anywhere, given that they level up much slower when transformed; this is a high-risk, low-reward proposition. And honestly, I would say it's not worth it, because aside from the exorbitant amount of effort needed (trying to make most non-royal laguz usable in RD feels more like trying to raise Larvesta in Pokemon BW), Kryptonite is everywhere to make life hard for laguz. Needing to grass up to avoid reverting is a negative, no matter which way you slice it, because laguz already have worse enemy phases on account of being range-locked. Especially when laguz are seeing enough combat that most of what one use of olivi grass restores is wiped away, which, for most laguz, is not a lot (cats lose 5 gauge per turn and 4 per combat, meaning 2 enemies and a turn takes away almost all of what they gain from olivi grass; any more, and it's a net loss. Other laguz that aren't lions or dragons don't fare much better, losing 4 gauge per turn and 3 per combat). I also fail to see why laguz should be entitled to stat boosters when in practice, beorc make better use of them pretty much ten times out of ten. What's more, once again, I can savescum level ups to make pretty much anyone good. Squandering what little BEXP you have at that point is not something I'd advise. I would also question giving Volug boss kills when the Daeins are already strapped for experience as is, and mismanaging exp is a very easy way to end up hitting a brick wall later. Well, about DB exp, you have a choice of giving the boss kills from 1-5 onward to Sothe, Volug or Tauroneo. Sothe is trash in p3 no matter what you do, Tauroneo doesn't gain much from the 1 or 2 boss kills he can get in p1 since he doesn't even level up once and Volug has highchance of getting speed from most level ups, if he gets 2 or 3 speed level ups he's nuts, and everything else on top of hp/spd/luck is insanely beneficial. +1 strength for example can be the difference between taking a counter from a mage or OHKOing it as soon as 1-E (or sooner if Volug got strength magically with BEXP, still 25% not 0, if my 45% speed Leonardo could gain 6 speed level ups in 6 levels then Volug sure can get 1 25% str level up with some luck). You know who else is great in DB? Nolan, who hates early BEXP unless it just gets him from somewhere to 92% exp bar because he suffers enough from high level with low level base stats not to cut him down on 2 potential stat gains per level. Nolan has less movement than Volug, is your meatshield that has to safeguard your cat food team and his only support realistically happening without taking 50 turns per map is Leonardo or Edward, Leonardo helping far more than Eddie because Nolan still lacks in offense. Jill comes near the end of p1 with base stats that I would've liked on Meg 2 chapters earlier but instead she's usable from 1-6 only for 4 maps, in one of which she can barely fight anything (1-6-2 either cheesed with Tauroneo on turn 2 or massively carried by Volug who is the only candidate for taking care of the top side of the map without dying in 2 attacks, and a pure water is highly recommended in his inventory). If Volug has gotten a dragonshield he can attack once or twice more on PP because he's not fearing death, if not then you'll have to keep him healing whenever needed. Jill on the other hand is really dying in 2 hits from whatever attacks her, has shit tier accuracy for half the maps she's in during the whole game (yay even Nolan beats her in that department while his skill is already inferior to Aran's), she's weighed down by every non iron axe (hammer gives her like -7 speed, ending up with 8 speed from base 15 and she can't hit to save her life, sometimes she doesn't even OHKO with hammer due to her complete trash strength even if you give her the energy drop). Jill has about the same growth rates as Meg, you know, the joke unit? Somehow people think Jill is incredible although she literally needs every ressource in the DB + all the CEXP and BEXP to even do anything more than ORKOing pegasi in 1-6 with a hand axe, and that's in normal mode, I don't even imagine how bad she can be in hard where early game ennemies have Awakening lunatic level bullshit stats from what I've seen the only time I've dared try it. https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/932999-fire-emblem-radiant-dawn/69426809 This epic tale is so true it's funny, basically how everyone in the DB chapters try to do anything and while they try to do something they realize Volug has already beaten the chapter. By the way, Volug can use celerity, pass or paragon without needing a promo item or any level up. If he gains 20-28 exp from a boss normally, double it with Paragon and add double exp from everything else, and now Volug effectively has 3 chapters where he gains some exp (well say 2 since 1-8 is literally Tormod and Vika doing everything worth mentionning until Sothe and Zihark arrive from their stupid starting point through 100 bushes around the damn swamp and reck the boss peninsula) or he simply has to take celerity and go even further from 1-8 and pass for 1-E that helps him slaughter the ledge ennemies and open a path for whoever wants to get there, while Nailah opens the stairs, and they both take care of the thieves so you have all your time to make it to the chests with Sothe. Any ressource spent in Volug helps ease the DB chapters and since he has good base parametters and good options to get even better. Put Resolve on him to watch insanity since Volug under half HP still has as much HP as base Jill full HP, if you look at things from further you can realize that what you thought was really misinformed and making you look less smart than I think you are, with resolve active, Volug has 24 str, 27 skl and 29 spd at base, which should be enough to solo 1-E, even better, if you were to give him a seraph robe, he'd have 28 HP when entering madness mode, which is 4 more than Jill's base HP when she's full, or 3 less than she'd have with a seraph robe, still completely dominating her in all offensive stats until she's in t3 since she doesn't have high enough skl/spd caps to ever reach 27/29 in t2, and 24 str is what she'd have very late in t2 mostly after BEXP abusing once she has reached her spd/res caps. Now for p3, with resolve and 2 hp/speed/luck level ups, he has 51 HP, 16 str, 18 skl, 22 spd, 15 lck, with the skill activated he has 24 str, 27 skl and 33 spd. Zihark gets completely ROFLstomped even if all his offensive stats are capped (24 str is his cap, 30 skill is still a bit higher than 27 but nothing worth noting when his weapons have 10-20 less accuracy than a fang, he caps speed at 30, his luck growth isn't very high), and if Volug gets B double earth support on top he has 66+15+30=101 avoid, 111 on a thicket, that in half form. In full form, it's 45 speed> 90+15+30=135 avoid, 145 on a thicket. Now tell me anyone in DB has anything worth noting over Volug, who doubles every non Naesala royal with 2 speed level ups and resolve active, and if he is given an energy drop his strength is 26>39, suddenly he stomps every Beorc's str in t3 except capped Boyd since Nolan hardly caps strength in a playthrough where you don't spend 80 turns per map + save scumming level ups unless he's heavily RNG strength blessed. With these stats, tell me again that Volug doesn't have dibs on the DB ressources to push his offensive stats, that he never reaches SS strike and that he isn't lategame material when he still has 3 speed points to gain to reach his cap of 18/36 which means 27 speed in human form with resolve, 27>40 in wildheart and 36>54 in full form, with 26>39 str with 2 strength points from base or 19>28 in wildheart, which is equal to Ulki's full form strength. If you gave Ulki and Volug Resolve, they would not counter at 2 range but they would obliterate late game even with wildheart and they would have better offensive parametters than non resolve royals, Volug equaling Giffca in effectiveness and Ulki beating them both with vigilance ensuring he is untouchable (36 base speed>54 with resolve, 40 cap>60, with how high his luck is, that's 164-165 avoid at capped speed with base luck and no support). Give them red pool when you can and you'll see how nuts that is. This requires setup? the whole game requires setup, and Laguz have exactly what they need to set it up since you can put them just in resolve range on 1st EP and reck the map from there. Meanwhile Jill is still at 31 hp, 13 str, 12 skl, 15 spd, 15 def, 3 res, even at 20/1 (after 6 painfull level ups and all your non speedwings stat boosters) she has 36 hp, 17 str, 15 skl, 19-20 spd, 17 lck, 19 def and 7 res, she's still 10 hp lower than base Haar, 7 str lower, 7 or so skl lower, about equal in spd, maybe superior in luck, 5 def lower and has about equal res with him. If she can use resolve, then she has =<18 HP left, 25 str, 22 skl, 27-30 spd. She still inferior to base Haar in every defensive parametter and has to fall to 18 hp to just match his base attack, speed means little when he ORKOs everything with a brave axe or a killer axe crit, glad Boyd gives him exactly that, a killer axe, or you could get him the brave axe given by Kieran in p2. Haar with resolve is a thing too, but he has less HP than Volug, 3x less HP growth and caps HP at 50-60 while Volug caps at 70, meaning Haar's left with <25 HP for all t2 and =<30 by endgame. Sorry for the wall of text, I just developped what I was just realizing on how insane Volug is and thus how completely nuts Ulki is. They might not have 2 range, but except Haar/Titania, no one can do what they can better than them and their raw HP value ensures they're safe when they do it. Not even speaking of mastery skills since they're overkill by this point, with 24 base skill in full form, 36 with resolve, Volug would already activate it more than once in a while, and Ulki with 34>51 would activate it very often. Still unusable against lategame bosses so I don't mention them. Edited October 19, 2020 by mangasdeouf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 8 hours ago, mangasdeouf said: Well, about DB exp, you have a choice of giving the boss kills from 1-5 onward to Sothe, Volug or Tauroneo. Sothe is trash in p3 no matter what you do, Tauroneo doesn't gain much from the 1 or 2 boss kills he can get in p1 since he doesn't even level up once and Volug has highchance of getting speed from most level ups, if he gets 2 or 3 speed level ups he's nuts, and everything else on top of hp/spd/luck is insanely beneficial. +1 strength for example can be the difference between taking a counter from a mage or OHKOing it as soon as 1-E (or sooner if Volug got strength magically with BEXP, still 25% not 0, if my 45% speed Leonardo could gain 6 speed level ups in 6 levels then Volug sure can get 1 25% str level up with some luck). I agree Sothe falls off, but I would argue Volug does so too, but even harder, to the point he needs great fortune and investment to stay relevant. Investment I have a hard time seeing as worth it .Anyway, I'd argue I can do better than giving boss kills to one of three characters who either fall off or go missing for a long time, especially when mismanaging experience means I get in an unwinnable situation when I have to use the Daeins again. Also, 40% is not exactly high by my standards, especially when bexp is concerned and you have other growths that are almost as good as that, in which case I'd have to worry about those stats getting to be lucky number 3 instead. 10 hours ago, mangasdeouf said: You know who else is great in DB? Nolan, who hates early BEXP unless it just gets him from somewhere to 92% exp bar because he suffers enough from high level with low level base stats not to cut him down on 2 potential stat gains per level. Nolan has less movement than Volug, is your meatshield that has to safeguard your cat food team and his only support realistically happening without taking 50 turns per map is Leonardo or Edward, Leonardo helping far more than Eddie because Nolan still lacks in offense. Jill comes near the end of p1 with base stats that I would've liked on Meg 2 chapters earlier but instead she's usable from 1-6 only for 4 maps, in one of which she can barely fight anything (1-6-2 either cheesed with Tauroneo on turn 2 or massively carried by Volug who is the only candidate for taking care of the top side of the map without dying in 2 attacks, and a pure water is highly recommended in his inventory). If Volug has gotten a dragonshield he can attack once or twice more on PP because he's not fearing death, if not then you'll have to keep him healing whenever needed. Jill on the other hand is really dying in 2 hits from whatever attacks her, has shit tier accuracy for half the maps she's in during the whole game (yay even Nolan beats her in that department while his skill is already inferior to Aran's), she's weighed down by every non iron axe (hammer gives her like -7 speed, ending up with 8 speed from base 15 and she can't hit to save her life, sometimes she doesn't even OHKO with hammer due to her complete trash strength even if you give her the energy drop). Jill has about the same growth rates as Meg, you know, the joke unit? Somehow people think Jill is incredible although she literally needs every ressource in the DB + all the CEXP and BEXP to even do anything more than ORKOing pegasi in 1-6 with a hand axe, and that's in normal mode, I don't even imagine how bad she can be in hard where early game ennemies have Awakening lunatic level bullshit stats from what I've seen the only time I've dared try it. Apparently you're not as bothered by high level with low stats as you claim since you seem to fanboy over laguz, and a lot of them have low stats for their level (Like Lethe, who levels like a third tier unit transformed, but has stats that are barely better than her sister, who's considered the worst unit in the game, or at least one of them). RE: Jill, I'd just keep her using an iron axe, only using other weapons as needed, until she grows enough to use other weapons with little AS loss. Anyway, a lot of people think Jill is so good because she's the only flier the Daeins get (that actually sticks around, mind you, in case you try to mention Vika). That means she can do stuff no one else can. 11 hours ago, mangasdeouf said: This epic tale is so true it's funny, basically how everyone in the DB chapters try to do anything and while they try to do something they realize Volug has already beaten the chapter. By the way, Volug can use celerity, pass or paragon without needing a promo item or any level up. If he gains 20-28 exp from a boss normally, double it with Paragon and add double exp from everything else, and now Volug effectively has 3 chapters where he gains some exp (well say 2 since 1-8 is literally Tormod and Vika doing everything worth mentionning until Sothe and Zihark arrive from their stupid starting point through 100 bushes around the damn swamp and reck the boss peninsula) or he simply has to take celerity and go even further from 1-8 and pass for 1-E that helps him slaughter the ledge ennemies and open a path for whoever wants to get there, while Nailah opens the stairs, and they both take care of the thieves so you have all your time to make it to the chests with Sothe. Any ressource spent in Volug helps ease the DB chapters and since he has good base parametters and good options to get even better. That's probably exaggerated, and I wouldn't put stock in anything from Gamefaqs that's not their walkthroughs, given that their community doesn't exactly have a good reputation. Also, doubling a low amount doesn't magically make it a high amount. What's more, relying on Tormod and Vika to do everything in 1-8 is a noob move. Why the hell should I frequently use two units that are essentially black holes due to not being playable against until part 4, at which point they're pretty much unsalvageable?? Especially since unlike you, I am suspicious when I get overpowered units in this game, as they probably won't stick around or have other flaws that make relying on them too much an easy way to screw myself over. 11 hours ago, mangasdeouf said: Put Resolve on him to watch insanity since Volug under half HP still has as much HP as base Jill full HP, if you look at things from further you can realize that what you thought was really misinformed and making you look less smart than I think you are, with resolve active, Volug has 24 str, 27 skl and 29 spd at base, which should be enough to solo 1-E, even better, if you were to give him a seraph robe, he'd have 28 HP when entering madness mode, which is 4 more than Jill's base HP when she's full, or 3 less than she'd have with a seraph robe, still completely dominating her in all offensive stats until she's in t3 since she doesn't have high enough skl/spd caps to ever reach 27/29 in t2, and 24 str is what she'd have very late in t2 mostly after BEXP abusing once she has reached her spd/res caps. Now for p3, with resolve and 2 hp/speed/luck level ups, he has 51 HP, 16 str, 18 skl, 22 spd, 15 lck, with the skill activated he has 24 str, 27 skl and 33 spd. Zihark gets completely ROFLstomped even if all his offensive stats are capped (24 str is his cap, 30 skill is still a bit higher than 27 but nothing worth noting when his weapons have 10-20 less accuracy than a fang, he caps speed at 30, his luck growth isn't very high), and if Volug gets B double earth support on top he has 66+15+30=101 avoid, 111 on a thicket, that in half form. In full form, it's 45 speed> 90+15+30=135 avoid, 145 on a thicket. Now tell me anyone in DB has anything worth noting over Volug, who doubles every non Naesala royal with 2 speed level ups and resolve active, and if he is given an energy drop his strength is 26>39, suddenly he stomps every Beorc's str in t3 except capped Boyd since Nolan hardly caps strength in a playthrough where you don't spend 80 turns per map + save scumming level ups unless he's heavily RNG strength blessed. That relies on him being below half health, which is not good, because at that point, I cannot really rely on lucky dodges to save the day, and I can find better things to rely on to take hits than a Volug who's at or below half health. It also doesn't fix his other weaknesses, like being unable to counter anything with range. Also, double earth can help anyone, not just Volug. The problem is that double earth won't save the day when Volug inevitably reverts into his human form, which has paper defenses and allows pretty much anything to have a very good chance to put him down for good. I'm not gonna stake my run on that. Also, spending 80+ turns on a map and savescumming sounds like the exact same stuff that you're willing to do for Volug. Why does he get special treatment? Because he NEEDS it to stay relevant? 11 hours ago, mangasdeouf said: With these stats, tell me again that Volug doesn't have dibs on the DB ressources to push his offensive stats, that he never reaches SS strike and that he isn't lategame material when he still has 3 speed points to gain to reach his cap of 18/36 which means 27 speed in human form with resolve, 27>40 in wildheart and 36>54 in full form, with 26>39 str with 2 strength points from base or 19>28 in wildheart, which is equal to Ulki's full form strength. If you gave Ulki and Volug Resolve, they would not counter at 2 range but they would obliterate late game even with wildheart and they would have better offensive parametters than non resolve royals, Volug equaling Giffca in effectiveness and Ulki beating them both with vigilance ensuring he is untouchable (36 base speed>54 with resolve, 40 cap>60, with how high his luck is, that's 164-165 avoid at capped speed with base luck and no support). Give them red pool when you can and you'll see how nuts that is. This requires setup? the whole game requires setup, and Laguz have exactly what they need to set it up since you can put them just in resolve range on 1st EP and reck the map from there. Meanwhile Jill is still at 31 hp, 13 str, 12 skl, 15 spd, 15 def, 3 res, even at 20/1 (after 6 painfull level ups and all your non speedwings stat boosters) she has 36 hp, 17 str, 15 skl, 19-20 spd, 17 lck, 19 def and 7 res, she's still 10 hp lower than base Haar, 7 str lower, 7 or so skl lower, about equal in spd, maybe superior in luck, 5 def lower and has about equal res with him. If she can use resolve, then she has =<18 HP left, 25 str, 22 skl, 27-30 spd. She still inferior to base Haar in every defensive parametter and has to fall to 18 hp to just match his base attack, speed means little when he ORKOs everything with a brave axe or a killer axe crit, glad Boyd gives him exactly that, a killer axe, or you could get him the brave axe given by Kieran in p2. Haar with resolve is a thing too, but he has less HP than Volug, 3x less HP growth and caps HP at 50-60 while Volug caps at 70, meaning Haar's left with <25 HP for all t2 and =<30 by endgame. He doesn't, because he's still a lowly non-royal laguz who's at the mercy of the game's mechanics being to the detriment of laguz, who, in case you haven't been paying attention, have crippling weaknesses that cannot be fixed no matter how much investment you put into them. Not that I expect you to understand since you believe the laguz can power through everything - a very daft notion, to be sure. As the story points out, Ranulf knows full damn well this is foolishness. Look at part 4. It's heavy on routs, which, as I keep saying, are best cleared with units that can wipe out lots of enemies on the enemy phase. Since laguz can't counter ranged fighters period, any time they get attacked at range over a beorc that can counter is a negative, because their attacker goes unpunished (as I've made clear, even the royals are not exempt from this. Like in 4-4, where I inevitably have to have someone else help deal with the boatload of snipers that spawn near the south treasure room because as she can only kill one per turn, it'll take forever for Nailah to get rid of them all). That being said, some of the non-royal laguz are good in spite of their weaknesses. Also of note, Blood Tide is only usable in endgame, and needless to say, I have to get through the rest of the game to get there first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mangasdeouf Posted October 20, 2020 Author Share Posted October 20, 2020 (edited) 12 hours ago, Shadow Mir said: I agree Sothe falls off, but I would argue Volug does so too, but even harder, to the point he needs great fortune and investment to stay relevant. Investment I have a hard time seeing as worth it .Anyway, I'd argue I can do better than giving boss kills to one of three characters who either fall off or go missing for a long time, especially when mismanaging experience means I get in an unwinnable situation when I have to use the Daeins again. Also, 40% is not exactly high by my standards, especially when bexp is concerned and you have other growths that are almost as good as that, in which case I'd have to worry about those stats getting to be lucky number 3 instead. If you handwave all the explanation on what Volug can do with an energy ring, resolve and 4500 bexp, then why do you answer by saying he falls off when he's only kicking more ass in p3 than he can in p1, because he can dodge better than Zihark, use beastfoe better, and even at 50% HP he still has about the same HP as the rest of the DB, except he can OS cats and has base 26+13+earth 30-45+thicket 10 avoid=79-94 avoid (69-84 with lowest biorythm) in HUMAN FORM, with 2 speed level ups which is super easy to get, he goes from that to 73-88 with lowest biorythm (73 B earth earth, 88 A earth earth), add 10 when normal bio and 20 when highest. That's 93-108 avoid on highest biorythm in human form and I doubt tigers are even close to double 15 AS Volug. I always give him an energy ring because he OHKOs mages in p1 with it so he doesn't take punishment just like they do when they hit hit from range...for 9 damage since pure water exists, which lets him go with 40 HP when physical ennemies barely deal 6-7 damage on him, when they hit him. Hell, people put resolve beastfoe on Volug in HARD MODE and some have gotten him 10 levels in 3-6 like that, not speaking of easy mode here. If he can do that just by investing in a support and 2 BEXP level ups, then I'm all for it, since Nolan AKA your second best tank gets down in 2 rounds with about everything in 3-6 and he can barely double tigers at the beginning of the map, I think he can't if he doesn't have 20 speed, don't tigers have 16 on this map (which means base Volug also doesn't get doubled by them)? Apparently you're not as bothered by high level with low stats as you claim since you seem to fanboy over laguz, and a lot of them have low stats for their level (Like Lethe, who levels like a third tier unit transformed, but has stats that are barely better than her sister, who's considered the worst unit in the game, or at least one of them). RE: Jill, I'd just keep her using an iron axe, only using other weapons as needed, until she grows enough to use other weapons with little AS loss. Anyway, a lot of people think Jill is so good because she's the only flier the Daeins get (that actually sticks around, mind you, in case you try to mention Vika). That means she can do stuff no one else can. Well, considering he has as many levels to grow as X/15 Beorcs and he already trumps Haar in HP base and growth for the whole game, on top of having the speed/luck to double everything, hit it, avoid well and the luck/skl/hit to never miss an attack (even in human form he has 114 base hit), I guess I don't fear him falling behind when he has a free steel weapon with 0 Wt at base and it automatically upgrades if I use him a lot to get to silver weapons' damage, meanwhile he can use resolve at base, faces nearly only 1 range ennemies for p3 (1 chapter where there are ranged ennemies, a chapter where ally units do much more than your own and give you...TADAA! Fountains of BEXP! What does Volug want already? BEXP was it? Well, I can't count how much better than the Beorcs he'll become with so much BEXP lying around, if I give BEXP to Jill she'll cap speed and res and try to cap luck for 20 levels before actually putting points where she needs them, AKA HP/str/skl/def, so that she can finally take more than 2 hits by 20/11, the same level as Haar when he already tanks the whole map except mages and gets out fine with a potion/concoction, and Jill is supposed to be da best dawn brigader, well, I guess you don't find her as good as this since I've read quite some topics about DB and Jill and you didn't seem to glorify her, but even Nolan takes the same to be able to take more than 2-3 hits and that could even be with Tarvos, depending on how much he levelled up speed with his crappy base and HP with his crappy growth, since Volug has 17 level ups of luck, 21 of HP and 5 of speed before capping them, he goes to skill for 8 levels after speed is capped, then strength and def/res when luck is capped, he only has 6 levels of def to cap it, make it 4 because I gave him the dragonshield, and 5 levels of res, he caps everything just by spamming BEXP, not counting the cheese strat of 3-6 resolve beastfoe that lets him skip 5-10 levels of BEXP and maybe gain more stats per level up than 3 on average over these 5-10 level ups, biorythm seems to affect level ups so maybe if he levels up when his bio is hig/highest he gets more, with that he completely stomps the game but as I said on the previous post, S rank strike and an energy ring with resolve already let him destroy part 4 and the tower with 2 speed level ups). That's probably exaggerated, and I wouldn't put stock in anything from Gamefaqs that's not their walkthroughs, given that their community doesn't exactly have a good reputation. Also, doubling a low amount doesn't magically make it a high amount. What's more, relying on Tormod and Vika to do everything in 1-8 is a noob move. Why the hell should I frequently use two units that are essentially black holes due to not being playable against until part 4, at which point they're pretty much unsalvageable?? Especially since unlike you, I am suspicious when I get overpowered units in this game, as they probably won't stick around or have other flaws that make relying on them too much an easy way to screw myself over. You won't know if you don't try it, feeding scrubs experience at the cost of weakening your best unit is not your usual way to play the game, correct me if I'm wrong, imagine Seth being 1-range locked but having resolve and 1.66x his base HP and a 10 pt higher HP cap (70), would you still ditch him for Garcia, worse than Neimi, Rennac with lol knives, Wendy-Gilliam, cav! Amelia in Eph's route (because Eph's maps are literally shit for horses except landing at Taizel, the ch12 one, and Turning traitor is alright but tricky with a zambato mercenary who has high hit chance), Tauroneo-Duessel with double weakness, worse than Joshua (Joshua actually has HP unlike Zihark who asks for a seraph robe ASAP if you want to use him, just like every DB unit except Volug), better than Edward (Edward doesn't get as much res as Eirika does + she has a better avoid in her game, rapier, Sieglinde has 16 Mt, monster effectiveness making it 48, +5 strength, and she has a horse on promotion!), better Micaiah (Lute can actually take a hit at base and not die and stays this way, she can also hope to start doubling at some point and she doubles most soldiers at base for 1RKOs, she also fights ennemies who don't have >50% growths everywhere and she starts OHKOing before promotion if you don't early promote her to waste her potential), better Laura (yes Natasha is like Lute but a healer, she has good base speed and only ch9 mercenaries and sniper in Eir!route start doubling her if she doesn't gain a single point in speed in 4 chapters while Laura is OHKOd and doubled at base and stays that way for almost the whole game)? I bet you'd abuse Seth. Well, that's exactly why I like Volug so much, because his team is completely overshadowed by him forever. Guess what? He has a 19 Mt weapon if you use him like most people use Jill and his str cap is the same as Nolan, but he can use Resolve + another 15 room skill at base and maybe more at level 20/30 when Laguz skill room gets higher. With Wildheart and Resolve he has 36 speed at level 20 if all levels got him speed, if that's not the case he gets 36 speed like 1 or 2 levels higher, not a death sentence. With Laguz Hp, high luck, insane speed, the rest getting better from there, he actually does better in half form than Beorcs before they hit their t3 caps. And Beorcs can't use Resolve in safety zone because they nearly get one shot if they get hit only once. That relies on him being below half health, which is not good, because at that point, I cannot really rely on lucky dodges to save the day, and I can find better things to rely on to take hits than a Volug who's at or below half health. It also doesn't fix his other weaknesses, like being unable to counter anything with range. Also, double earth can help anyone, not just Volug. The problem is that double earth won't save the day when Volug inevitably reverts into his human form, which has paper defenses and allows pretty much anything to have a very good chance to put him down for good. I'm not gonna stake my run on that. Also, spending 80+ turns on a map and savescumming sounds like the exact same stuff that you're willing to do for Volug. Why does he get special treatment? Because he NEEDS it to stay relevant? Below 50% HP, you mean 24 HP?, he still tanks better than Jill since he has 19 base speed in human form with resolve and 13 base luck. With 1 level up he has 25 HP when resolve activates, Jill needs 2 level ups on average to gain a single HP point. If you give the seraph robe to both to see how this affects their performance, Jill now dies in 2 hits from high attack ennemies or from any mage with elfire, is nearly one shot by elthunder, meanwhile Volug has 28 HP, better avoid than Jill forever and if he's in half form, which is what he's in when mages exist, he completely loathes her offense and defense. Like I said, if you fear Volug reverting into human form when in hard mode he can solo one side of the map in human form in 3-6 with an A double earth support and beastfoe and gain so many levels from it (hint: more than the Beorcs in t2), then you don't understand how insane he is. He starts better than the DB and will stay better just by using him, overusing him will only result in a Resolvolug Emblem. If Haar is god tier, then Volug is too, his lack of 2 range is much less annyoing than it is on Mordecai who never fights Laguz, on Kiza who has worse stats and a higher base level than Volug with 3 less base speed in a chapter where all ennemies are in t2, even then speedwings Kyza doubles as much as any 24 speed unitand with Reolve Kyza is still a beast, 15 base speed in human form but 30 in tiger, this is the same as Ranulf, with better transformation gauge. Resolve basically makes Laguz broken. He doesn't, because he's still a lowly non-royal laguz who's at the mercy of the game's mechanics being to the detriment of laguz, who, in case you haven't been paying attention, have crippling weaknesses that cannot be fixed no matter how much investment you put into them. Not that I expect you to understand since you believe the laguz can power through everything - a very daft notion, to be sure. As the story points out, Ranulf knows full damn well this is foolishness. Look at part 4. It's heavy on routs, which, as I keep saying, are best cleared with units that can wipe out lots of enemies on the enemy phase. Since laguz can't counter ranged fighters period, any time they get attacked at range over a beorc that can counter is a negative, because their attacker goes unpunished (as I've made clear, even the royals are not exempt from this. Like in 4-4, where I inevitably have to have someone else help deal with the boatload of snipers that spawn near the south treasure room because as she can only kill one per turn, it'll take forever for Nailah to get rid of them all). That being said, some of the non-royal laguz are good in spite of their weaknesses. Also of note, Blood Tide is only usable in endgame, and needless to say, I have to get through the rest of the game to get there first. Yet royal Laguz trivialize all chapters they're in without the nees of a 2 range weapon. With Resolve any normal Laguz with halfshift can have the same offense as a royal except for base weapon rank, which increases the more you use them anyway. Your BEXP still does way more to fix Laguz issues than it does to fix Beorcs'. Since Beorcs gain little from a level up while Laguz gain much more and start higher with lower caps, BEXPing Laguz results in units that shitstomp Beorc t3 units. Use Haar, Nolan, Titania, Ike, Shinon, CK in their chapters, they're all good. But they don't improves as much with BEXP than Laguz do, and they don't need it to do their thing. Hell, Titania's stats are much worse than speedwing!Mordecai yet she's S tier and he's C. If one wants to use Mordecai, they can put resolve on him, go meet enough ennemies to get in resolve range (usually 2 will do), with 1 olivi grass and 1 battle he can transform https://serenesforest.net/radiant-dawn/classes/transformation/ You can also just let him be attacked twice and his gauge will be full if Serenes Forest transformation gauge data is wright, saving yourself an olivi grass. With Resolve Mrdy doesn't even need a speedwings anymore since he now has 27 base speed, enough to double nearly all p3 ennemies. That cost you 0 gold, only a skill scroll that he's the best user of. With a concoction or an elixir in his inventory, Mordecai can go back to human form safely and retransform as soon as he is hit by 2 ennemies (which is quite easy to do), so that's 1 EP per transformation and in tiger form he has 42 strength, 52 attack with resolve on top of the best bulk of any non lion unit in the whole game. He doesn't take any damage and OHKOs everything in return, for 1 EP of careful placing to fill his gauge. Can you do the same with any Beorc? nope, Haar at 50% HP can die from one thunder magic hit if he doesn't have nullify, his luck is nothing to be proud of and doesn't really improve before long, his HP/2 is 23, 25 after promo gains, Mordecai's is 28 at base, that's 5 more, which is a lot when he takes negative damage from any non boss ennemy at base and one rounds all of them, one shoot any non wyvern lord/general ennemy. The investment is literally 1 resolve scroll that you can move around when Mordecai isn't in his best map (in maps with lots of mages for example). If you can make him tank 2/3rds of the 1st wave of ennemies in each chapter and get a free transformation from it alongside an instant resolve activation, then you can clear boss killing maps in no time, especially since tiger gauge is insanely good (10 fights or 9 + 1 turn to untransform from full, that's more than you fight most of the time in 1 turn). Olivi grass gives him +5 fights or +3 fights and 1 turn with a +2 compared with the previous turn. At this cost you have an invincible one shoot machine. I wasn't joking when I compared Laguz transformed with nuclear bombs. PS: Sorry, I was wrong about 1 part, I thought resolve also gave x1.5 str, it appears it doesn't in RD while it did in POR and the FEBuilder version comes from POR, not RD, thus my confusion about the skill giving half more strength when it doesn't. Still good enough to carry Volug though, since he ties with Zihark in offense with A strike and Zihark has lower offense with silver swords than Volug with S strike, not counting my personal +2/3/4 strength given by the energy ring I automatically feed Volug to ensure he doesn't get countered by mages. Which brings Volug to 13/19/26 strength, 2 points more attack with 1 booster than Zihark's t2 str cap that he reaches after several BEXP levels after he caps his skl/spd. Even in half form, 19 str isn't bad when your Mt is 9 in p1 and 14 in p3. Swordmasters don't have access to Vague Katti for nearly all of act 4 and when it becomes available, it still has 1 range. Alondite is available for 3 maps in the tower AFTER you beat the last map with Beorcs, just in time for dragons (half of them have 1 range IIRC) and auras. I'm not even sure swordmasters can double auras without white pool (don't they have 37 speed?) Edited October 20, 2020 by mangasdeouf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 (edited) On 10/20/2020 at 5:03 AM, mangasdeouf said: If you handwave all the explanation on what Volug can do with an energy ring, resolve and 4500 bexp, then why do you answer by saying he falls off when he's only kicking more ass in p3 than he can in p1, because he can dodge better than Zihark, use beastfoe better, and even at 50% HP he still has about the same HP as the rest of the DB, except he can OS cats and has base 26+13+earth 30-45+thicket 10 avoid=79-94 avoid (69-84 with lowest biorythm) in HUMAN FORM, with 2 speed level ups which is super easy to get, he goes from that to 73-88 with lowest biorythm (73 B earth earth, 88 A earth earth), add 10 when normal bio and 20 when highest. That's 93-108 avoid on highest biorythm in human form and I doubt tigers are even close to double 15 AS Volug. I always give him an energy ring because he OHKOs mages in p1 with it so he doesn't take punishment just like they do when they hit hit from range...for 9 damage since pure water exists, which lets him go with 40 HP when physical ennemies barely deal 6-7 damage on him, when they hit him. Hell, people put resolve beastfoe on Volug in HARD MODE and some have gotten him 10 levels in 3-6 like that, not speaking of easy mode here. If he can do that just by investing in a support and 2 BEXP level ups, then I'm all for it, since Nolan AKA your second best tank gets down in 2 rounds with about everything in 3-6 and he can barely double tigers at the beginning of the map, I think he can't if he doesn't have 20 speed, don't tigers have 16 on this map (which means base Volug also doesn't get doubled by them)? You're one to talk, as you're yourself handwaving the fact that he's not entitled to those resources. Almost anyone can be good with favoritism on that scale. I consider that foolhardy, seeing as constantly killing your attackers is the absolute worst thing to do when you're not that durable. And given that Resolve requires being at half health or less... I'm even less comfortable playing Russian Roulette, especially when I'm up against laguz, which are not very likely to miss. I'd rather not go into a situation where I need to get lucky over and over to not lose. On 10/20/2020 at 5:03 AM, mangasdeouf said: Well, considering he has as many levels to grow as X/15 Beorcs and he already trumps Haar in HP base and growth for the whole game, on top of having the speed/luck to double everything, hit it, avoid well and the luck/skl/hit to never miss an attack (even in human form he has 114 base hit), I guess I don't fear him falling behind when he has a free steel weapon with 0 Wt at base and it automatically upgrades if I use him a lot to get to silver weapons' damage, meanwhile he can use resolve at base, faces nearly only 1 range ennemies for p3 (1 chapter where there are ranged ennemies, a chapter where ally units do much more than your own and give you...TADAA! Fountains of BEXP! What does Volug want already? BEXP was it? Well, I can't count how much better than the Beorcs he'll become with so much BEXP lying around, if I give BEXP to Jill she'll cap speed and res and try to cap luck for 20 levels before actually putting points where she needs them, AKA HP/str/skl/def, so that she can finally take more than 2 hits by 20/11, the same level as Haar when he already tanks the whole map except mages and gets out fine with a potion/concoction, and Jill is supposed to be da best dawn brigader, well, I guess you don't find her as good as this since I've read quite some topics about DB and Jill and you didn't seem to glorify her, but even Nolan takes the same to be able to take more than 2-3 hits and that could even be with Tarvos, depending on how much he levelled up speed with his crappy base and HP with his crappy growth, since Volug has 17 level ups of luck, 21 of HP and 5 of speed before capping them, he goes to skill for 8 levels after speed is capped, then strength and def/res when luck is capped, he only has 6 levels of def to cap it, make it 4 because I gave him the dragonshield, and 5 levels of res, he caps everything just by spamming BEXP, not counting the cheese strat of 3-6 resolve beastfoe that lets him skip 5-10 levels of BEXP and maybe gain more stats per level up than 3 on average over these 5-10 level ups, biorythm seems to affect level ups so maybe if he levels up when his bio is hig/highest he gets more, with that he completely stomps the game but as I said on the previous post, S rank strike and an energy ring with resolve already let him destroy part 4 and the tower with 2 speed level ups). High HP doesn't help much when your defenses are essentially wet toilet paper, which results in any hit you take doing massive damage. Haar doesn't care too much about most physical attacks, only fearing the occasional Wyrmslayer, whereas if Volug reverts and enemies can still get to him, his high HP (and Volug himself, for that matter) WILL disappear in a hurry unless you get beyond lucky. Also, I hesitate to call a high-risk, low-reward strategy, which resolve beastfoe is, a "cheese strategy". I'd have better luck trying to do it right than playing Russian Roulette with a unit who's an easy kill the moment he winds up in human form. Also, I can only assume biorhythm affecting level ups is just conjecture. Especially since the one method of affecting biorhythm you get comes at the cost of using Vigor, which is much more useful. On 10/20/2020 at 5:03 AM, mangasdeouf said: You won't know if you don't try it, feeding scrubs experience at the cost of weakening your best unit is not your usual way to play the game, correct me if I'm wrong, imagine Seth being 1-range locked but having resolve and 1.66x his base HP and a 10 pt higher HP cap (70), would you still ditch him for Garcia, worse than Neimi, Rennac with lol knives, Wendy-Gilliam, cav! Amelia in Eph's route (because Eph's maps are literally shit for horses except landing at Taizel, the ch12 one, and Turning traitor is alright but tricky with a zambato mercenary who has high hit chance), Tauroneo-Duessel with double weakness, worse than Joshua (Joshua actually has HP unlike Zihark who asks for a seraph robe ASAP if you want to use him, just like every DB unit except Volug), better than Edward (Edward doesn't get as much res as Eirika does + she has a better avoid in her game, rapier, Sieglinde has 16 Mt, monster effectiveness making it 48, +5 strength, and she has a horse on promotion!), better Micaiah (Lute can actually take a hit at base and not die and stays this way, she can also hope to start doubling at some point and she doubles most soldiers at base for 1RKOs, she also fights ennemies who don't have >50% growths everywhere and she starts OHKOing before promotion if you don't early promote her to waste her potential), better Laura (yes Natasha is like Lute but a healer, she has good base speed and only ch9 mercenaries and sniper in Eir!route start doubling her if she doesn't gain a single point in speed in 4 chapters while Laura is OHKOd and doubled at base and stays that way for almost the whole game)? I bet you'd abuse Seth. Well, that's exactly why I like Volug so much, because his team is completely overshadowed by him forever. Guess what? He has a 19 Mt weapon if you use him like most people use Jill and his str cap is the same as Nolan, but he can use Resolve + another 15 room skill at base and maybe more at level 20/30 when Laguz skill room gets higher. With Wildheart and Resolve he has 36 speed at level 20 if all levels got him speed, if that's not the case he gets 36 speed like 1 or 2 levels higher, not a death sentence. With Laguz Hp, high luck, insane speed, the rest getting better from there, he actually does better in half form than Beorcs before they hit their t3 caps. And Beorcs can't use Resolve in safety zone because they nearly get one shot if they get hit only once. If you've been paying attention, most of the stronger units you get in part 1 either disappear for a long time (Nailah, Tormod & co., Tauroneo) or have other drawbacks (Volug, who has to deal with the typical laguz weaknesses after part 1, in addition to falling off a cliff, and Sothe, who also falls off, but not to the extent that Volug does). Relying too much on those leaves me up shit's creek without a paddle the moment part 3 comes along, when I have to hope the Daeins can stand on their own two feet, as opposed to needing the assistance of crutches that are no longer around. Also, Sacred Stones doesn't even compare to Radiant Dawn in terms of difficulty (and has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic besides), so why the hell are you bringing up its characters again??? Getting back to Volug, if I have to screw over everyone else for Volug to shine, that's a Texas-sized red flag telling me he's not worth it. On 10/20/2020 at 5:03 AM, mangasdeouf said: Below 50% HP, you mean 24 HP?, he still tanks better than Jill since he has 19 base speed in human form with resolve and 13 base luck. With 1 level up he has 25 HP when resolve activates, Jill needs 2 level ups on average to gain a single HP point. If you give the seraph robe to both to see how this affects their performance, Jill now dies in 2 hits from high attack ennemies or from any mage with elfire, is nearly one shot by elthunder, meanwhile Volug has 28 HP, better avoid than Jill forever and if he's in half form, which is what he's in when mages exist, he completely loathes her offense and defense. Like I said, if you fear Volug reverting into human form when in hard mode he can solo one side of the map in human form in 3-6 with an A double earth support and beastfoe and gain so many levels from it (hint: more than the Beorcs in t2), then you don't understand how insane he is. He starts better than the DB and will stay better just by using him, overusing him will only result in a Resolvolug Emblem. If Haar is god tier, then Volug is too, his lack of 2 range is much less annyoing than it is on Mordecai who never fights Laguz, on Kiza who has worse stats and a higher base level than Volug with 3 less base speed in a chapter where all ennemies are in t2, even then speedwings Kyza doubles as much as any 24 speed unitand with Reolve Kyza is still a beast, 15 base speed in human form but 30 in tiger, this is the same as Ranulf, with better transformation gauge. Resolve basically makes Laguz broken. Even with Resolve, Volug in human form is still more likely to get hit and possibly killed than not (after all, it's not like he'll always be at exactly half health. And if he ISN'T, you are stuck not being able to heal him without putting him outside of Resolve range). That does not sound reliable to me. At all. Also, Volug is nowhere near Haar's level of usefulness, because Haar only really slows down in endgame, whereas Volug loses his luster much much earlier (to put things into perspective, Haar gets banned in RD drafts). In addition, as Volug has 9 move and comes about midway through part 1, you're pretty much gonna have to go completely out of your way to get an A double-earth support involving him, due to him having a move gap between two of the other earth affinity units (the third is Fiona, who starts out really bad). What's more, Resolve can be used by pretty much anyone, and I don't see units that have to worry about turning into their weak and easily killed human state as the better users of it. And tiger gauge isn't much better than cat gauge. On 10/20/2020 at 5:03 AM, mangasdeouf said: Yet royal Laguz trivialize all chapters they're in without the nees of a 2 range weapon. With Resolve any normal Laguz with halfshift can have the same offense as a royal except for base weapon rank, which increases the more you use them anyway. Your BEXP still does way more to fix Laguz issues than it does to fix Beorcs'. Since Beorcs gain little from a level up while Laguz gain much more and start higher with lower caps, BEXPing Laguz results in units that shitstomp Beorc t3 units. Use Haar, Nolan, Titania, Ike, Shinon, CK in their chapters, they're all good. But they don't improves as much with BEXP than Laguz do, and they don't need it to do their thing. Hell, Titania's stats are much worse than speedwing!Mordecai yet she's S tier and he's C. If one wants to use Mordecai, they can put resolve on him, go meet enough ennemies to get in resolve range (usually 2 will do), with 1 olivi grass and 1 battle he can transform https://serenesforest.net/radiant-dawn/classes/transformation/ You can also just let him be attacked twice and his gauge will be full if Serenes Forest transformation gauge data is wright, saving yourself an olivi grass. With Resolve Mrdy doesn't even need a speedwings anymore since he now has 27 base speed, enough to double nearly all p3 ennemies. That cost you 0 gold, only a skill scroll that he's the best user of. With a concoction or an elixir in his inventory, Mordecai can go back to human form safely and retransform as soon as he is hit by 2 ennemies (which is quite easy to do), so that's 1 EP per transformation and in tiger form he has 42 strength, 52 attack with resolve on top of the best bulk of any non lion unit in the whole game. He doesn't take any damage and OHKOs everything in return, for 1 EP of careful placing to fill his gauge. Can you do the same with any Beorc? nope, Haar at 50% HP can die from one thunder magic hit if he doesn't have nullify, his luck is nothing to be proud of and doesn't really improve before long, his HP/2 is 23, 25 after promo gains, Mordecai's is 28 at base, that's 5 more, which is a lot when he takes negative damage from any non boss ennemy at base and one rounds all of them, one shoot any non wyvern lord/general ennemy. The investment is literally 1 resolve scroll that you can move around when Mordecai isn't in his best map (in maps with lots of mages for example). If you can make him tank 2/3rds of the 1st wave of ennemies in each chapter and get a free transformation from it alongside an instant resolve activation, then you can clear boss killing maps in no time, especially since tiger gauge is insanely good (10 fights or 9 + 1 turn to untransform from full, that's more than you fight most of the time in 1 turn). Olivi grass gives him +5 fights or +3 fights and 1 turn with a +2 compared with the previous turn. At this cost you have an invincible one shoot machine. I wasn't joking when I compared Laguz transformed with nuclear bombs. Doesn't change the fact that their lacking range is a disadvantage because they can't counter anything with range. Especially as part 4 is heavy on routs. Not to mention the toughest boss in the game has a skill that only activates at melee range that WILL put whoever is on the receiving end of it 6 feet under. Also, Tibarn and Naesala have to avoid crossbows like the plague. RE: BEXP: To say that BEXP helps laguz more than beorc is BS of the highest order - no amount of BEXP will make laguz able to counter ranged enemies. Also, most laguz have HP and luck as their only good growths, which means due to how BEXP levels work, giving them BEXP levels hurts them more than it helps (the only exceptions to this are Vika, who has other problems than being a laguz, and Lyre, who's generally considered the worst unit in the game). On the beorc side, good BEXP abusers include Aran, Nephenee and Soren. There are probably other beorc that can abuse BEXP, too. Regarding Mordecai, you're hyping speedwings on a unit that is literally only useful for two chapters. By the way, allowing him to get attacked untransformed will probably not get him gauge unless he missed, did no damage, or couldn't counter, and I'd say exposing him untransformed is not very smart, as his high defense doesn't help much when everything doubles him. Also, it's not like Mordecai doesn't have his own Kryptonite (mages in general ruin his day, especially fire mages). Edited October 21, 2020 by Shadow Mir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mangasdeouf Posted October 21, 2020 Author Share Posted October 21, 2020 6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said: You're one to talk, as you're yourself handwaving the fact that he's not entitled to those resources. Almost anyone can be good with favoritism on that scale. I consider that foolhardy, seeing as constantly killing your attackers is the absolute worst thing to do when you're not that durable. And given that Resolve requires being at half health or less... I'm even less comfortable playing Russian Roulette, especially when I'm up against laguz, which are not very likely to miss. I'd rather not go into a situation where I need to get lucky over and over to not lose. High HP doesn't help much when your defenses are essentially wet toilet paper, which results in any hit you take doing massive damage. Haar doesn't care too much about most physical attacks, only fearing the occasional Wyrmslayer, whereas if Volug reverts and enemies can still get to him, his high HP (and Volug himself, for that matter) WILL disappear in a hurry unless you get beyond lucky. Also, I hesitate to call a high-risk, low-reward strategy, which resolve beastfoe is, a "cheese strategy". I'd have better luck trying to do it right than playing Russian Roulette with a unit who's an easy kill the moment he winds up in human form. Also, I can only assume biorhythm affecting level ups is just conjecture. Especially since the one method of affecting biorhythm you get comes at the cost of using Vigor, which is much more useful. If you've been paying attention, most of the stronger units you get in part 1 either disappear for a long time (Nailah, Tormod & co., Tauroneo) or have other drawbacks (Volug, who has to deal with the typical laguz weaknesses after part 1, in addition to falling off a cliff, and Sothe, who also falls off, but not to the extent that Volug does). Relying too much on those leaves me up shit's creek without a paddle the moment part 3 comes along, when I have to hope the Daeins can stand on their own two feet, as opposed to needing the assistance of crutches that are no longer around. Also, Sacred Stones doesn't even compare to Radiant Dawn in terms of difficulty (and has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic besides), so why the hell are you bringing up its characters again??? Getting back to Volug, if I have to screw over everyone else for Volug to shine, that's a Texas-sized red flag telling me he's not worth it. Even with Resolve, Volug in human form is still more likely to get hit and possibly killed than not (after all, it's not like he'll always be at exactly half health. And if he ISN'T, you are stuck not being able to heal him without putting him outside of Resolve range). That does not sound reliable to me. At all. Also, Volug is nowhere near Haar's level of usefulness, because Haar only really slows down in endgame, whereas Volug loses his luster much much earlier (to put things into perspective, Haar gets banned in RD drafts). In addition, as Volug has 9 move and comes about midway through part 1, you're pretty much gonna have to go completely out of your way to get an A double-earth support involving him, due to him having a move gap between two of the other earth affinity units (the third is Fiona, who starts out really bad). What's more, Resolve can be used by pretty much anyone, and I don't see units that have to worry about turning into their weak and easily killed human state as the better users of it. And tiger gauge isn't much better than cat gauge. Doesn't change the fact that their lacking range is a disadvantage because they can't counter anything with range. Especially as part 4 is heavy on routs. Not to mention the toughest boss in the game has a skill that only activates at melee range that WILL put whoever is on the receiving end of it 6 feet under. Also, Tibarn and Naesala have to avoid crossbows like the plague. RE: BEXP: To say that BEXP helps laguz more than beorc is BS of the highest order - no amount of BEXP will make laguz able to counter ranged enemies. Also, most laguz have HP and luck as their only good growths, which means due to how BEXP levels work, giving them BEXP levels hurts them more than it helps (the only exceptions to this are Vika, who has other problems than being a laguz, and Lyre, who's generally considered the worst unit in the game). On the beorc side, good BEXP abusers include Aran, Nephenee and Soren. There are probably other beorc that can abuse BEXP, too. Regarding Mordecai, you're hyping speedwings on a unit that is literally only useful for two chapters. By the way, allowing him to get attacked untransformed will probably not get him gauge unless he missed, did no damage, or couldn't counter, and I'd say exposing him untransformed is not very smart, as his high defense doesn't help much when everything doubles him. Also, it's not like Mordecai doesn't have his own Kryptonite (mages in general ruin his day, especially fire mages). So your POV is that because Mordecai doesn't counter at 2 range and fears fire, his 16-32 def, 57 BHP, 16 Blck, 18 Bspd (22 with spdwings like Haar and Titania only has 1 more) with a cap of 30 (enough to double all of p4 before he even caps it and due to his high def he can cap speed, only he'll start taking very low damage in human form before capping his speed, and even then it doesn't matter when he destroyed one part of a map while Haar was on the other, this without caring for taking damage for 9 fights and 1 turn, 8 fights and 2 turns, etc without an olivi grass, add 5 fights per olivi grass while in tiger form, that's basically 1.5 turn from eating grass only once and he doesn't have to get healed afterwards). With 16 speed (which he has in human from with resolve and 1 speedwings), he tanks as well as Tarvos Nolan, that's in human form. Since he can get to full gauge in 2 fights while doing that, either he is already in resolve range and kills everything or he can eat an herb and draw one more ennemy to put him in resolve range (or a vulnerary, depending on how much HP will be lost). There's a whole strategical point in using Laguz, and the payback is that you have t3 Beorcs with little investment long before your team actually reaches t3 (like 5 chapters earlier than most, only Titania and Haar can get to t3 early enough and Titania is useless for most of Ranulf's recruitment chapter with ledges everywhere, she's unusable in the swamp chapter where you recruit Janaff and Ulki, she's slowed down in several other maps with terrain, hell, p3 is the most open maps-filled part in all of RD yet nearly half of it constantly throws terrain to nerf cavalry). Where Titania is unusable, Mordecai moves unrestricted, unless tigers have normal movement restrictions from grass (I only remember for sure they move freely in the sand, so you can send him to Micaiah's last chapter and Mordecai will chomp mages who can't defend themselves, like Volug does, like Nailah does, hell if you can't use a Laguz in the only FE with so much anti-cavalry map design, then you should restrict to easier games, Beorcs are scrubs except S and borderline S units, and Jill isn't part of them in my book, sure she repays well...after you basically broke the DB's legs and arms just to baby her out of her trash tier start and garbage growth rates, she's Nolan done worse with shitty avilability, absent from the only map she would've been useful in in p1 and she doesn't even surpass the master before she's like 20/20/15, which means she's shit for 26 levels before becoming average t3 unitand finally getting to a state state...but then the game is already over when she does that, if Jill is S tier then so is Edward who has 7 chapters of availability over her, a pref weapon with near SS rank damage and +8 avo/crit avo, Nolan would then be SSS tier and Volug would be SSSSS tier because he's Nolan but with 9 move through any not liquid terrain and infinite weapon uses with auto silver upgrade at 60 uses and auto SS weapon upgrade at 130 uses, so before the tower if you continue playing him as much as in p1 for p3 and early p4, which means he gets his SS weapon maybe before you even recruit Stefan and instantly crushes Trueblade damage without caring for weapon durability ever, and he also crushes trueblade durability before long). With how much exp you feed your Berocs with to get them to t3 for them to equal Laguz base stats midway through t3, you could have used with Laguz in a smart way, given them just the amount of exp they need through BEXP (flourish if you use it ensures your Laguz gain decent stats each chapter, get to 99 through BEXP, go to chapter, level up, wow that was so hard to cap a Laguz in 15 levels in most important stats, meanwhile Haar still gets his part of CEXP and Titania still has her share of use, Ike still gets enough exp to fight BK, no one was hurt but instead of using trash units that take 20+ levels to start doing anything meaningful by themselves, I used units that could do much with no investement and invested just enough into them so they got what they needed to be more than Jaegens, saying Laguz are bad is like saying giving a heart seal/parnter seal to Jakob in Fates results in a crappy unit that does little to help and ends up bested by other units, maybe in endgame other beat him but in the meantime he got armored blow and tanked like no one on PP to soften high stats ubber ennemies for the others to get the kill, hell he may even OHKO most of the map since GK Jakob has ridiculous attack, not even counting bought skills, in BR he can legit one shoot everything for half of the game with the exception of ubber ennemies that he leaves low enough to kill them with scrubs, and with that he has enough def to be better at tanking than Silas at least, on top of access to tomebreaker for anitmage high attack high def combination, if he gets wyvern just solo the game with him since no one else in required, take malig skills revert to great knight to not die in 2 arrows and game over, well Jakob doesn't need 2 range to do that, neither do Laguz to stomp not S tier Beorcs for the rest of the game, since with 1 stat booster most of them just have better combat than t3 lv 1-8 not S tier units and Laguz have something Jokob doesn't have: they can get skills from other units in the game and give their skills to others, chaging their skills for what's most useful before each chapter, meanwhile Jakob needs to acquire the skills by himself). I'd even say it's better to use Muarim when you get him back than to raise a Beorc to do the same thing a little better with 20000+ exp investment that Haar/Titania/Ike/Shinon could have shared instead. If you fear that Laguz taking BEXP cuts you from the exp the game throws at you, then why do you even use more than 4 units per map? Well, simple answer: because this game's hard and you need to fill the holes. Laguz are very good filler units that need no training to be serviceable and with much less training than Beorcs who fill the same role they can do much better and have better movement. You seem to forget that Laguz don't take -2 movement just for being in an inside map while mounted Beorcs suddenly have the same movement as foot soldiers and are not spectacular in the tower, where you get something crazy like 6 laguz gems during the whole battle each and enough filler units to carry the tower without having trained anyone for the whole game (except Ike so he doesn't and can kill Ashera). Every 3rd tier unit discussion is useless when Bastian Micaiah and Elincia are the only healers you'll ever need, Volke is the only dagger user you need to use in combat and Stefan is good enough not to need to train any shitty swordmaster (on top of having awesome Laguz outfit resembling Caineghis'), Janaff and Ulki are the only non royal non t3 Beorc units you need since almost every other slot is already filled and Rafiel with celerity is good without ever requiring to transform, 7 movement 4 units refresh every turn you can set it up, using laguz stones/gems on a heron is heresy when Rafiel just does all of the 4 unit refresh with 0 investment and celerity puts him at 7 movement to keep up with your army since only royal Laguz can be 9 move away on turn 1 before he refreshes them, if map density allows it. Now you have to choose between all the prepromote/ready to use units they shoehorn at you for all of p4 and endgame. The only parts where unit performance matters are p1-2-3, and in these parts the only Beorcs better than Laguz or who can do something Laguz can't are Shinon, Haar and Titania, Ike only by the end of p3 when he receives Ragnell. Every other Beorc is subpar and thus only subpar filler (Nolan being the best subpar filler unit who has a very continuous activity, filling the same role for all of the DB chapters until he finally doubles but not long enough for it to start to matter when as soon as p4 he stops doubling again and goes back to unimpressive meatbag). CK don't share more than 1 chapter with Laguz before the very end of p3 and that's if you don't 1-turn 2-E, otherwise CK never share any map with Laguz before the end of p3 where they barely improved from p2 except if you moved paragon and overlevelled 1 or 2 units in the one map they can use it...not very likely since when they rejoin Ike's army they're in the same situation than the DB in p4. And Mordecai/Janaff/Ulki swipe the floor with CK all day long as much if not more than with non Ike Titania Shinon GM and Haar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 On 10/21/2020 at 6:41 PM, mangasdeouf said: So your POV is that because Mordecai doesn't counter at 2 range and fears fire, his 16-32 def, 57 BHP, 16 Blck, 18 Bspd (22 with spdwings like Haar and Titania only has 1 more) with a cap of 30 (enough to double all of p4 before he even caps it and due to his high def he can cap speed, only he'll start taking very low damage in human form before capping his speed, and even then it doesn't matter when he destroyed one part of a map while Haar was on the other, this without caring for taking damage for 9 fights and 1 turn, 8 fights and 2 turns, etc without an olivi grass, add 5 fights per olivi grass while in tiger form, that's basically 1.5 turn from eating grass only once and he doesn't have to get healed afterwards). With 16 speed (which he has in human from with resolve and 1 speedwings), he tanks as well as Tarvos Nolan, that's in human form. Since he can get to full gauge in 2 fights while doing that, either he is already in resolve range and kills everything or he can eat an herb and draw one more ennemy to put him in resolve range (or a vulnerary, depending on how much HP will be lost). My point of view is that he's very, very, VERY far from the god unit you worship him as. I can't expect to send him alone to one area of a map and go "I got that part covered" because once he reverts, he's screwed. Do you even have a fundamental grasp of strategy? Because if so, you'd know that sending a non-royal laguz to an area without backup is not a good strategy. Also, capping speed is unrealistic for Mordecai because speed ties for his second lowest growth. Also, he's not taking love taps in human form - he's actually taking damage, and taking damage twice, which is even worse. On 10/21/2020 at 6:41 PM, mangasdeouf said: There's a whole strategical point in using Laguz, and the payback is that you have t3 Beorcs with little investment long before your team actually reaches t3 (like 5 chapters earlier than most, only Titania and Haar can get to t3 early enough and Titania is useless for most of Ranulf's recruitment chapter with ledges everywhere, she's unusable in the swamp chapter where you recruit Janaff and Ulki, she's slowed down in several other maps with terrain, hell, p3 is the most open maps-filled part in all of RD yet nearly half of it constantly throws terrain to nerf cavalry). Where Titania is unusable, Mordecai moves unrestricted, unless tigers have normal movement restrictions from grass (I only remember for sure they move freely in the sand, so you can send him to Micaiah's last chapter and Mordecai will chomp mages who can't defend themselves, like Volug does, like Nailah does, hell if you can't use a Laguz in the only FE with so much anti-cavalry map design, then you should restrict to easier games, Beorcs are scrubs except S and borderline S units, and Jill isn't part of them in my book, sure she repays well...after you basically broke the DB's legs and arms just to baby her out of her trash tier start and garbage growth rates, she's Nolan done worse with shitty avilability, absent from the only map she would've been useful in in p1 and she doesn't even surpass the master before she's like 20/20/15, which means she's shit for 26 levels before becoming average t3 unitand finally getting to a state state...but then the game is already over when she does that, if Jill is S tier then so is Edward who has 7 chapters of availability over her, a pref weapon with near SS rank damage and +8 avo/crit avo, Nolan would then be SSS tier and Volug would be SSSSS tier because he's Nolan but with 9 move through any not liquid terrain and infinite weapon uses with auto silver upgrade at 60 uses and auto SS weapon upgrade at 130 uses, so before the tower if you continue playing him as much as in p1 for p3 and early p4, which means he gets his SS weapon maybe before you even recruit Stefan and instantly crushes Trueblade damage without caring for weapon durability ever, and he also crushes trueblade durability before long). No, the "payoff" is that I wind up with units that I have to worry about becoming useless when I can't afford it. Not to mention having other weaknesses that cripple them on the battlefield (weakness that you have yet to actually acknowledge, by the way). Also, what's this "little investment" that you're talking about?? Untransformed combat, which is a high-risk, low-reward proposition??? Or needing to squander my BEXP? Also, Titania isn't as useless in Ranulf's recruitment chapter as you claim. She may not be able to get to the boss, but she can still contribute before then. RE: part 3 and terrain, 3-7 is the only chapter where terrain actually hinders cavalry in a noteworthy way. Good thing all I have to do is survive. RE: Mordecai and part 4, that's long after his usefulness has expired, so why would I want to shoot myself in the foot by randomly fielding laguz units at that point? RE: Jill and Edward, that's bull. Jill is the only flier the Daeins get, whereas Edward is pretty much rendered obsolete by Zihark, which Caladbolg does nothing to change. RE: Volug, he needs 150 attacks to get to SS strike. Unless I boss abuse (which I don't consider a legitimate argument), that's not happening before Stefan becomes relevant. On 10/21/2020 at 6:41 PM, mangasdeouf said: With how much exp you feed your Berocs with to get them to t3 for them to equal Laguz base stats midway through t3, you could have used with Laguz in a smart way, given them just the amount of exp they need through BEXP (flourish if you use it ensures your Laguz gain decent stats each chapter, get to 99 through BEXP, go to chapter, level up, wow that was so hard to cap a Laguz in 15 levels in most important stats, meanwhile Haar still gets his part of CEXP and Titania still has her share of use, Ike still gets enough exp to fight BK, no one was hurt but instead of using trash units that take 20+ levels to start doing anything meaningful by themselves, I used units that could do much with no investement and invested just enough into them so they got what they needed to be more than Jaegens, saying Laguz are bad is like saying giving a heart seal/parnter seal to Jakob in Fates results in a crappy unit that does little to help and ends up bested by other units, maybe in endgame other beat him but in the meantime he got armored blow and tanked like no one on PP to soften high stats ubber ennemies for the others to get the kill, hell he may even OHKO most of the map since GK Jakob has ridiculous attack, not even counting bought skills, in BR he can legit one shoot everything for half of the game with the exception of ubber ennemies that he leaves low enough to kill them with scrubs, and with that he has enough def to be better at tanking than Silas at least, on top of access to tomebreaker for anitmage high attack high def combination, if he gets wyvern just solo the game with him since no one else in required, take malig skills revert to great knight to not die in 2 arrows and game over, well Jakob doesn't need 2 range to do that, neither do Laguz to stomp not S tier Beorcs for the rest of the game, since with 1 stat booster most of them just have better combat than t3 lv 1-8 not S tier units and Laguz have something Jokob doesn't have: they can get skills from other units in the game and give their skills to others, chaging their skills for what's most useful before each chapter, meanwhile Jakob needs to acquire the skills by himself). They can actually level quickly, unlike laguz, who are treated as double their level transformed, and thus eventually start leveling like third tier units without the perks of actually being in third tier. Not to mention they're much quicker to improve than laguz are (I've said it in the past, and I still stand by this; if a beorc is struggling to do damage, a stronger weapon can fix that. What the hell am I supposed to do for a struggling laguz...???). Also, laguz have to worry about reverting, as if they get caught out untransformed, it's check and mate for them. On 10/21/2020 at 6:41 PM, mangasdeouf said: I'd even say it's better to use Muarim when you get him back than to raise a Beorc to do the same thing a little better with 20000+ exp investment that Haar/Titania/Ike/Shinon could have shared instead. If you fear that Laguz taking BEXP cuts you from the exp the game throws at you, then why do you even use more than 4 units per map? Well, simple answer: because this game's hard and you need to fill the holes. Laguz are very good filler units that need no training to be serviceable and with much less training than Beorcs who fill the same role they can do much better and have better movement. You seem to forget that Laguz don't take -2 movement just for being in an inside map while mounted Beorcs suddenly have the same movement as foot soldiers and are not spectacular in the tower, where you get something crazy like 6 laguz gems during the whole battle each and enough filler units to carry the tower without having trained anyone for the whole game (except Ike so he doesn't and can kill Ashera). Every 3rd tier unit discussion is useless when Bastian Micaiah and Elincia are the only healers you'll ever need, Volke is the only dagger user you need to use in combat and Stefan is good enough not to need to train any shitty swordmaster (on top of having awesome Laguz outfit resembling Caineghis'), Janaff and Ulki are the only non royal non t3 Beorc units you need since almost every other slot is already filled and Rafiel with celerity is good without ever requiring to transform, 7 movement 4 units refresh every turn you can set it up, using laguz stones/gems on a heron is heresy when Rafiel just does all of the 4 unit refresh with 0 investment and celerity puts him at 7 movement to keep up with your army since only royal Laguz can be 9 move away on turn 1 before he refreshes them, if map density allows it. You think it's a good idea to make what is already one of RD's most obnoxious chapters even harder than it needs to be? Really now?? Because that's what I'm getting from this (it's not like Muarim is good in endgame, either). Also, Rafiel's 5 move sucks - it doesn't matter that he can always refresh 4 units when he struggles to keep up. Celerity and the Boots are contested resources that can improve literally anyone, so I don't see why Rafiel should get the nod for them. On the other hand, Reyson's durability advantage is meaningful since he is least likely to get KOed by area of effect attacks the final bosses use. Also, has it never come to mind that heavily using laguz makes the game, which is already hard, even harder than it needs to be??? RE: the units you mentioned, Sothe is forced into endgame anyway (and it's not like Volke is oh so much better considering knives suck), Bastian doesn't bring much of anything to the table the other mages don't, and Stefan, while serviceable, is easy to miss. I also call BS on laguz needing no training to be serviceable; if anything, they're high maintenance and high investment units that have low payoff for it (except for the hawks and Skrimir). On 10/21/2020 at 6:41 PM, mangasdeouf said: Now you have to choose between all the prepromote/ready to use units they shoehorn at you for all of p4 and endgame. The only parts where unit performance matters are p1-2-3, and in these parts the only Beorcs better than Laguz or who can do something Laguz can't are Shinon, Haar and Titania, Ike only by the end of p3 when he receives Ragnell. Every other Beorc is subpar and thus only subpar filler (Nolan being the best subpar filler unit who has a very continuous activity, filling the same role for all of the DB chapters until he finally doubles but not long enough for it to start to matter when as soon as p4 he stops doubling again and goes back to unimpressive meatbag). CK don't share more than 1 chapter with Laguz before the very end of p3 and that's if you don't 1-turn 2-E, otherwise CK never share any map with Laguz before the end of p3 where they barely improved from p2 except if you moved paragon and overlevelled 1 or 2 units in the one map they can use it...not very likely since when they rejoin Ike's army they're in the same situation than the DB in p4. And Mordecai/Janaff/Ulki swipe the floor with CK all day long as much if not more than with non Ike Titania Shinon GM and Haar. You mean prepromos that are likely outclassed by the other units I'd have had to train to get there? Also, most of the laguz are much less usable compared to in PoR. And 1-turning 2-E isn't that feasible and makes me miss out on good items, like a Nullify scroll or Dracoshield. And once again, Mordecai sucks after 2-E. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mangasdeouf Posted October 24, 2020 Author Share Posted October 24, 2020 2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said: My point of view is that he's very, very, VERY far from the god unit you worship him as. I can't expect to send him alone to one area of a map and go "I got that part covered" because once he reverts, he's screwed. Do you even have a fundamental grasp of strategy? Because if so, you'd know that sending a non-royal laguz to an area without backup is not a good strategy. Also, capping speed is unrealistic for Mordecai because speed ties for his second lowest growth. Also, he's not taking love taps in human form - he's actually taking damage, and taking damage twice, which is even worse. No, the "payoff" is that I wind up with units that I have to worry about becoming useless when I can't afford it. Not to mention having other weaknesses that cripple them on the battlefield (weakness that you have yet to actually acknowledge, by the way). Also, what's this "little investment" that you're talking about?? Untransformed combat, which is a high-risk, low-reward proposition??? Or needing to squander my BEXP? Also, Titania isn't as useless in Ranulf's recruitment chapter as you claim. She may not be able to get to the boss, but she can still contribute before then. RE: part 3 and terrain, 3-7 is the only chapter where terrain actually hinders cavalry in a noteworthy way. Good thing all I have to do is survive. RE: Mordecai and part 4, that's long after his usefulness has expired, so why would I want to shoot myself in the foot by randomly fielding laguz units at that point? RE: Jill and Edward, that's bull. Jill is the only flier the Daeins get, whereas Edward is pretty much rendered obsolete by Zihark, which Caladbolg does nothing to change. RE: Volug, he needs 150 attacks to get to SS strike. Unless I boss abuse (which I don't consider a legitimate argument), that's not happening before Stefan becomes relevant. They can actually level quickly, unlike laguz, who are treated as double their level transformed, and thus eventually start leveling like third tier units without the perks of actually being in third tier. Not to mention they're much quicker to improve than laguz are (I've said it in the past, and I still stand by this; if a beorc is struggling to do damage, a stronger weapon can fix that. What the hell am I supposed to do for a struggling laguz...???). Also, laguz have to worry about reverting, as if they get caught out untransformed, it's check and mate for them. You think it's a good idea to make what is already one of RD's most obnoxious chapters even harder than it needs to be? Really now?? Because that's what I'm getting from this (it's not like Muarim is good in endgame, either). Also, Rafiel's 5 move sucks - it doesn't matter that he can always refresh 4 units when he struggles to keep up. Celerity and the Boots are contested resources that can improve literally anyone, so I don't see why Rafiel should get the nod for them. On the other hand, Reyson's durability advantage is meaningful since he is least likely to get KOed by area of effect attacks the final bosses use. Also, has it never come to mind that heavily using laguz makes the game, which is already hard, even harder than it needs to be??? RE: the units you mentioned, Sothe is forced into endgame anyway (and it's not like Volke is oh so much better considering knives suck), Bastian doesn't bring much of anything to the table the other mages don't, and Stefan, while serviceable, is easy to miss. I also call BS on laguz needing no training to be serviceable; if anything, they're high maintenance and high investment units that have low payoff for it (except for the hawks and Skrimir). You mean prepromos that are likely outclassed by the other units I'd have had to train to get there? Also, most of the laguz are much less usable compared to in PoR. And 1-turning 2-E isn't that feasible and makes me miss out on good items, like a Nullify scroll or Dracoshield. And once again, Mordecai sucks after 2-E. I'll try to keep it short this time. My point on the training vs no training: Base Mordecai's stats are like T3 Brom with way more HP and less speed, but a speedwings makes him as fast as speedwings Haar. Gatrie's spd cap is 1 point higher than Mordecai's speed with 1 speedwings, equal to Titania's or 1 point lower. Gatrie has 1 less movement than Mordecai in human form, 3 less than Mordecai in tiger form, and does fine at base when you need to turtle. If instead of feeding exp to Beorcs who already do fine but won't be a great help in endgame (Gatrie, Brom, Titania, Sothe, t2 Micaiah, Oscar if used, etc.) or who start like shit (Mia's base stats are all about speed, skill, her weapons deal little damage, she doesn't dodge well before getting an earth support, hell she even has unreliable dodge in easy mode without earth support, Elincia in p4, Nephenee, Fiona, Boyd who lacks base def or speed, choose one, Zihark who would really love a seraph robe although he's lv 3 promoted already and shouldn't have LESS HP than post-promotion Edward, although I agree after trying that resolve Zihark recks p1 with a Volug support ASAP and should snowball fast in p3 with this advantage under his belt) (talking of Volug with 25 HP I managed to put him under the ledge in 1-6-2 and he got away from a mage with 1 HP, so he's quite better at tanking fire magic than you'd expect, and that was without a pure water, with it he'd have 8 HP left and could have taken a physical hit on top, with resolve active he's more susceptible to dodge like 2 physical hits, meaning he could've taken 3 physical hits with 2 dodges and 1 through on top of the mage, which is 2 more than anyone else than Zihark or Tauroneo can pretend to do, and Zihark with resolve active dies from anything in 1 hit pretty much). So, if instead of raising not worthy units or units who need to take 15 levels of babying to get anywhere by themselves without dying in 3 hits (Neph, Mia who should even die in 2 at first and barely damages armors, Boyd who's a worse version or Danved with more strength/HP and less speed, so much less that he can get doubled at base, according to forumers and Boyd hates swordmasters more than human form Mordecai), I can make an unit that already has t3 stats when transformed into being more useful overall, whether or not he's transformed, halfshifted or in human form, then I'll go for the one who has t2 stats in half form and t3 stats in full form, permanent HP advantage over any Beorc ever, good enough luck to not be constantly facing crits from everything, and like you said, Nullify exists in this game, making his fire weakness disappear if you equip it on him, then he's just as resistant to magic as Haar but still has more HP than him to tank these hits and OHKOs mages for quite some time, probably forever when his strike goes to S rank. Since I can perfectly manage how I expose my units in this game because it doesn't have Awakening's map/level design and reinforcements moving on arrival, I can most of the time make it so Mordecai will face exactly the number of ennemies needed to transform freely on the next turn and obliterate everything while eating a concoction and an olivi grass on the 3rd turn to get 4 more fights out of this, 1 PP action, 3 EP, 1 olivi grass, 1 concoction, and every 1 range ennemy disappeared in a 18x18 size area from where he transformed to where he lands hen he untransforms. If he is low I can revert, grass and retransform, as long as he has 7 transformation gauge he can retransform on the next turn, I don't see how it can be considered hard to use. Since Shinon has provoke, I can even do some funny things to draw the ranged ennemies on Shinon and the melee ones on Mordy so they both counter, Mordy gets his gauge to full and then I wipe the floor with the ennemies' organs while Mordecai goes 9 tiles further and slaughters everything without taking a single point of damage from any non Warrior/General/Sage unit. After all, I could let 14 def 11 speed 32 HP Nolan solo tank all of the ennemies in 1-4 while Volug was away, came back just to kill 1 myrmidon who was dangerous for Nolan and Micaiah/Laura and went back away to continue his 9 move slaughter even after eating 2 arrows and a fire magic on top of a few javelins (if that's bad in your book...then there is only 1 good unit in p1 that returns for more than 1 map in p3, and that's Tauroneo, who ends ups nearly identical to Nolan when he comes back and had no time to build any support if you didn't go out of your way to do it in 1-6). Risk management is part of the game. Since I know how to manage the risk when exposing Laguz, because I failed at first, learnt and now I remember how I did it and can reproduce it at will (when it's possible, not in chapters where there are massive groups of ennemies waiting just a few tiles from the starting point...is there even any chapters like that in p3 GM's maps? Not that I recall...or nothing that Ike Titania Shinon Haar and Gatrie can't dispose of on t1 before setting up Mordecai for t2 or t3). And if it's not Shinon who uses Provoke, then it's Gatrie. If you make up some plan, there's no such thing as impossible, everythiing can be planned and done. Maybe it's easier to not use Mordecai for you, maybe it's easier to have a 3 turns impenetrable wall that tears through everything for me, and since we both know how we play around the weaknesses of our units, we both do it well enough to not suffer from it. If no 2 range was that bad, Mia would be in low tier, if DB was so in need for 2 range in p3, then Zihark would be mid tier at best, but these units are all in high tier and have shitty 2 range, suicidal personal skill (adept can kill Zihark if it opens him to more ennemies than he can chomp) or simply useless personal skill (how is Mia doing anything useful with how vantage is shit in RD is beyond me, she can't kill anything in 1 hit but mages, and she'd probably need more than a wind edge even for a sage on top of lowest accuracy attainable on a ranged weapon, they should've made decent/good magic swords instead of shitty physical ones). Also, shove exists, I can shove Mist or Rhys to be in healing range of Mordy when the area is cleared. All this Mordecai can do it without a single level up, while Gatrie needs 2 level ups (lol if you use a speedwings on Gatrie who has 60% spd growth) to double or Titania who needs 1, Ike who has enough speed to double everything but swordmasters, Soren/Boyd who go from not doubling to...not doubling and Shinon/Mia who double everything at base and have shitty weapons (bows don't get any better in p3 than they were in p2, Shinon has low strength, barely exceeding 20 while he's closer to t3 than from t1). With a speedwings on Mordecai and 2 speed level ups on Haar and Gatrie, you have 3 units who barely take damage and double almost everything and 1RKO everything they double or close to everything, I think Gatrie has axes too so he can hammer generals whenever you get your hands on one, Haar doesn't really need it because he promotes early enough to start 1RKOing generals during p3 with regular axes/poleaxes (and he has enough skl to use poleaxes unlike most units). By using Mordecai, you get an easier time playing the game, by not using him you get a harder time facing ubber wyverns and such. You said you could use WTA to not get hit by axes. Well, when you barely have any supports built, any +3 luck +2 speed gained from levelling up and the ennemy has 30+ hit and 3-6 crit chance on your swordie, even on Ike, it's really not something I want to try out. Mordecai could take the axe hit, even 5 of them or 3 crits and he would not be low. 3x5=15, 3x15=45. Haar has 46 HP and 30% growth, what deals 5 on base transformed Mordy deals 9 on 20/1 Haar, who has less luck than Mordecai and thus less avoid and and crit avoid. 9x3=27, 50 HP-27 damage=23 HP, Haar dies in 2 crits even after capped def + promo. Mordecai can take 3 crits and have 12 HP left from the same ennemy. Even if he reverts, by then the ennemy is long dead without much effort. With 2 def level ups, Mordecai would take 1 damage per hit from the same ennemy. He takes less BEXP to level up than t3 Haar and gets twice the bonus to his stats, it's like feeding 2 level ups to Brom, since Mordecai has stats resembling Brom's more than anyone else, but you have a 9 move t3 Brom for several turns, a 7 move unt to play around for 1-2 turns before getting back your t3 monster. Back to the topic, if Laguz had similar transformation bonuses than in POR, they'd be much better if their transformed stats remained untouched, so their human and half forms would have insane stats. Or if they had like 3 gauge per turn, 1-2 per fight down and 10 gauge per turn up, 15 per fight when in human form, they'd be exactly what they're meant to be, with halfshift they'd be cut on doubling against fast Beorcs (Mordecai would be cut on doubling anything) but remain meatshields with good attack and good movement type and in human form they could use their combat gauge up much safer, while not reverting so fast and chomping half less olivi grass (seriously Laguz should be called Hobbit Fighters, they abuse herbs). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 (edited) On 10/24/2020 at 9:18 AM, mangasdeouf said: My point on the training vs no training: Base Mordecai's stats are like T3 Brom with way more HP and less speed, but a speedwings makes him as fast as speedwings Haar. Gatrie's spd cap is 1 point higher than Mordecai's speed with 1 speedwings, equal to Titania's or 1 point lower. Gatrie has 1 less movement than Mordecai in human form, 3 less than Mordecai in tiger form, and does fine at base when you need to turtle. If instead of feeding exp to Beorcs who already do fine but won't be a great help in endgame (Gatrie, Brom, Titania, Sothe, t2 Micaiah, Oscar if used, etc.) or who start like shit (Mia's base stats are all about speed, skill, her weapons deal little damage, she doesn't dodge well before getting an earth support, hell she even has unreliable dodge in easy mode without earth support, Elincia in p4, Nephenee, Fiona, Boyd who lacks base def or speed, choose one, Zihark who would really love a seraph robe although he's lv 3 promoted already and shouldn't have LESS HP than post-promotion Edward, although I agree after trying that resolve Zihark recks p1 with a Volug support ASAP and should snowball fast in p3 with this advantage under his belt) (talking of Volug with 25 HP I managed to put him under the ledge in 1-6-2 and he got away from a mage with 1 HP, so he's quite better at tanking fire magic than you'd expect, and that was without a pure water, with it he'd have 8 HP left and could have taken a physical hit on top, with resolve active he's more susceptible to dodge like 2 physical hits, meaning he could've taken 3 physical hits with 2 dodges and 1 through on top of the mage, which is 2 more than anyone else than Zihark or Tauroneo can pretend to do, and Zihark with resolve active dies from anything in 1 hit pretty much). Bold: There are no ledges in 1-6-2. Again, looking only at transformed stats doesn't tell the whole story, because needless to say, transformation is temporary. And Mordecai's untransformed stats are laughable. 9 speed is not cool when literally everything doubles you. Also, speedwings are contested resources, and I'm better off giving those to a beorc, which will always be able to make use of them. Gatrie and Brom might not have as much movement, but they're harder to kill, because they're not perpetually at risk of turning into something that is doubled by everything and their grandma (and thus looking like mooks that wound up on the receiving end of Zantetsuken [which kills instantly, if you're not familiar with it] after one round of combat). RE: Mia, she has enough strength to use a Steel Blade with no AS loss. Also, her damage isn't THAT bad. On 10/24/2020 at 9:18 AM, mangasdeouf said: So, if instead of raising not worthy units or units who need to take 15 levels of babying to get anywhere by themselves without dying in 3 hits (Neph, Mia who should even die in 2 at first and barely damages armors, Boyd who's a worse version or Danved with more strength/HP and less speed, so much less that he can get doubled at base, according to forumers and Boyd hates swordmasters more than human form Mordecai), I can make an unit that already has t3 stats when transformed into being more useful overall, whether or not he's transformed, halfshifted or in human form, then I'll go for the one who has t2 stats in half form and t3 stats in full form, permanent HP advantage over any Beorc ever, good enough luck to not be constantly facing crits from everything, and like you said, Nullify exists in this game, making his fire weakness disappear if you equip it on him, then he's just as resistant to magic as Haar but still has more HP than him to tank these hits and OHKOs mages for quite some time, probably forever when his strike goes to S rank. You don't know the first thing about "worthy units" if all you can contribute to that discussion is subpar laguz units that level slowly and struggle to stay relevant. Especially when they're forced to miss out on some chapters. Also, Nullify can be better used by other units. On 10/24/2020 at 9:18 AM, mangasdeouf said: Since I can perfectly manage how I expose my units in this game because it doesn't have Awakening's map/level design and reinforcements moving on arrival, I can most of the time make it so Mordecai will face exactly the number of ennemies needed to transform freely on the next turn and obliterate everything while eating a concoction and an olivi grass on the 3rd turn to get 4 more fights out of this, 1 PP action, 3 EP, 1 olivi grass, 1 concoction, and every 1 range ennemy disappeared in a 18x18 size area from where he transformed to where he lands hen he untransforms. If he is low I can revert, grass and retransform, as long as he has 7 transformation gauge he can retransform on the next turn, I don't see how it can be considered hard to use. Since Shinon has provoke, I can even do some funny things to draw the ranged ennemies on Shinon and the melee ones on Mordy so they both counter, Mordy gets his gauge to full and then I wipe the floor with the ennemies' organs while Mordecai goes 9 tiles further and slaughters everything without taking a single point of damage from any non Warrior/General/Sage unit. What the hell does Awakening have to do with this topic? Nothing. It's not even the FE game with the worst map design (and I won't say what it is because I'd rather not go off topic). Anyway, I just stated a couple posts ago that laguz do NOT gain gauge when attacked unless they couldn't counter, missed their counter, or did no damage. Which makes exposing them untransformed a very risky method of gaining gauge. On 10/24/2020 at 9:18 AM, mangasdeouf said: After all, I could let 14 def 11 speed 32 HP Nolan solo tank all of the ennemies in 1-4 while Volug was away, came back just to kill 1 myrmidon who was dangerous for Nolan and Micaiah/Laura and went back away to continue his 9 move slaughter even after eating 2 arrows and a fire magic on top of a few javelins (if that's bad in your book...then there is only 1 good unit in p1 that returns for more than 1 map in p3, and that's Tauroneo, who ends ups nearly identical to Nolan when he comes back and had no time to build any support if you didn't go out of your way to do it in 1-6). Risk management is part of the game. 1-4 is the chapter filled with laguz bandits, which is right before Volug even becomes relevant (and besides, Aran can handle swordies with ease). Also, like I said earlier, relying heavily on Tauroneo in 1-6 does me no good whatsoever when the others need the experience for me to not have a bad time in part 3. Doing that is not "risk management", it's shortsighted and stupid. On 10/24/2020 at 9:18 AM, mangasdeouf said: Since I know how to manage the risk when exposing Laguz, because I failed at first, learnt and now I remember how I did it and can reproduce it at will (when it's possible, not in chapters where there are massive groups of ennemies waiting just a few tiles from the starting point...is there even any chapters like that in p3 GM's maps? Not that I recall...or nothing that Ike Titania Shinon Haar and Gatrie can't dispose of on t1 before setting up Mordecai for t2 or t3). And if it's not Shinon who uses Provoke, then it's Gatrie. If you make up some plan, there's no such thing as impossible, everythiing can be planned and done. Maybe it's easier to not use Mordecai for you, maybe it's easier to have a 3 turns impenetrable wall that tears through everything for me, and since we both know how we play around the weaknesses of our units, we both do it well enough to not suffer from it. If no 2 range was that bad, Mia would be in low tier, if DB was so in need for 2 range in p3, then Zihark would be mid tier at best, but these units are all in high tier and have shitty 2 range, suicidal personal skill (adept can kill Zihark if it opens him to more ennemies than he can chomp) or simply useless personal skill (how is Mia doing anything useful with how vantage is shit in RD is beyond me, she can't kill anything in 1 hit but mages, and she'd probably need more than a wind edge even for a sage on top of lowest accuracy attainable on a ranged weapon, they should've made decent/good magic swords instead of shitty physical ones). Apparently not, since you fail to grasp that most non-royal laguz are just not good enough to justify fielding them and thus having to contort my game around their many weaknesses. For example, I find it hard to justify using Mordecai in part 3 when by that point, I have Haar, Gatrie and Brom for tanks, and Ike is not too shabby on that front himself. Also, I actually like the fact that RD addressed the lack of ranged swords issue for once (they're not forgeable, but that is another issue entirely). Having the only ranged swords be magic swords is really crappy when very few units, if any, can make good use of them. Radiant Dawn and Fates were the only games to avert this. On 10/24/2020 at 9:18 AM, mangasdeouf said: Also, shove exists, I can shove Mist or Rhys to be in healing range of Mordy when the area is cleared. All this Mordecai can do it without a single level up, while Gatrie needs 2 level ups (lol if you use a speedwings on Gatrie who has 60% spd growth) to double or Titania who needs 1, Ike who has enough speed to double everything but swordmasters, Soren/Boyd who go from not doubling to...not doubling and Shinon/Mia who double everything at base and have shitty weapons (bows don't get any better in p3 than they were in p2, Shinon has low strength, barely exceeding 20 while he's closer to t3 than from t1). With a speedwings on Mordecai and 2 speed level ups on Haar and Gatrie, you have 3 units who barely take damage and double almost everything and 1RKO everything they double or close to everything, I think Gatrie has axes too so he can hammer generals whenever you get your hands on one, Haar doesn't really need it because he promotes early enough to start 1RKOing generals during p3 with regular axes/poleaxes (and he has enough skl to use poleaxes unlike most units). By using Mordecai, you get an easier time playing the game, by not using him you get a harder time facing ubber wyverns and such. Again, I don't see a speedwing on Mordecai as a good investment when he still has to deal with the typical laguz issues. Especially when I already have other units that are good on both offense and defense and don't need to transform to be anything other than a punching bag. So I don't see using Mordecai as making the game easier; if anything, using him only makes my team worse off than if I didn't use him. On 10/24/2020 at 9:18 AM, mangasdeouf said: You said you could use WTA to not get hit by axes. Well, when you barely have any supports built, any +3 luck +2 speed gained from levelling up and the ennemy has 30+ hit and 3-6 crit chance on your swordie, even on Ike, it's really not something I want to try out. Mordecai could take the axe hit, even 5 of them or 3 crits and he would not be low. 3x5=15, 3x15=45. Haar has 46 HP and 30% growth, what deals 5 on base transformed Mordy deals 9 on 20/1 Haar, who has less luck than Mordecai and thus less avoid and and crit avoid. 9x3=27, 50 HP-27 damage=23 HP, Haar dies in 2 crits even after capped def + promo. Mordecai can take 3 crits and have 12 HP left from the same ennemy. Even if he reverts, by then the ennemy is long dead without much effort. With 2 def level ups, Mordecai would take 1 damage per hit from the same ennemy. He takes less BEXP to level up than t3 Haar and gets twice the bonus to his stats, it's like feeding 2 level ups to Brom, since Mordecai has stats resembling Brom's more than anyone else, but you have a 9 move t3 Brom for several turns, a 7 move unt to play around for 1-2 turns before getting back your t3 monster. You make being critted out to be something that's more worrisome than it really is - after all, there's no Knolls or Arthurs in this game (ergo, units with luck so bad that even cannon fodder have crit chances on them). If an enemy has crit chances worth worrying about in this game, odds are they're either in a boosted crit class, using a boosted crit weapon, or both. Anyway, for the third time, when I already have four units that can tank, I have to jump through an insane amount of mental hoops to justify one who needs to transform first and is slow to improve compared to the others (because I can do better than squandering my BEXP on third-rate laguz). On 10/24/2020 at 9:18 AM, mangasdeouf said: Back to the topic, if Laguz had similar transformation bonuses than in POR, they'd be much better if their transformed stats remained untouched, so their human and half forms would have insane stats. Or if they had like 3 gauge per turn, 1-2 per fight down and 10 gauge per turn up, 15 per fight when in human form, they'd be exactly what they're meant to be, with halfshift they'd be cut on doubling against fast Beorcs (Mordecai would be cut on doubling anything) but remain meatshields with good attack and good movement type and in human form they could use their combat gauge up much safer, while not reverting so fast and chomping half less olivi grass (seriously Laguz should be called Hobbit Fighters, they abuse herbs). My point was, I didn't feel like I had to jump through an insane amount of hoops to raise laguz in PoR. Sure, they had their fair share of flaws there, but otherwise they felt much better than they did in RD. Edited October 25, 2020 by Shadow Mir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mangasdeouf Posted October 26, 2020 Author Share Posted October 26, 2020 9 hours ago, Shadow Mir said: My point was, I didn't feel like I had to jump through an insane amount of hoops to raise laguz in PoR. Sure, they had their fair share of flaws there, but otherwise they felt much better than they did in RD. I'll only answer that since this discussion won't go anywhere because we both have our way to play and we don't share them. In POR, while Laguz were easier to use (sure, there was literally 0 management, yu just watch out for the gauge getting to 0 and then replenish, completely unskilled way to play, 0 satisfaction to make good plays, and no incentive to use them at all since even transformed their stats are garbage, Gatire with a few level ups has as much str/def as full form Mordecai and more speed), they were far from capping anything at all, they didn't have better weapons ever, like thieves for most of the game, at least Volke had a promotion and an S weapon, although I don't know if he can actually get his hands on it since S weapons seem to be absolutely not guaranteed to be acquired by the player in POR. Muarim seems average, good at first but really falling from a cliff when you go further, Mordecai's def was not even worth t2 Beorcs and honestly, the only things going for them was desert maps. If I had to compare Laguz in POR with anything, I'd compare them with prepromoted Ninetails without res (cats) and prepromoted Uhfedin with the Beastrune, both with +2 movement. Except Kaden and Keaton both have better growth rates than Lethe, Ranulf and Mordecai/Muarim and inherent class bonuses in t2, on top of better exp gain (but no BEXP), and they have E, C and B/A weapons with advantages and drawbacks, honestly beastrune is by far the best IMO (especially for Kaden who wants the def buff instead of debuff to get +6 def from beaststone). POR Laguz have none of it, just regular steel swords that never improve, stat caps inferior to the caps registered for their class in the class data (like caps around 30 when the registered data shows 34+ in the class caps, maybe Wikia is wrong on those numbers but it's weird). They don't even do anything better than Beorcs and flyers are stomping the game alongside cavalry anyway, which is not my preferred strategy (I think cavalry should have much lower stats to make up for movement and canto, and I think the caps in RD are just what they needed to be good for the wide maps but hurting you in the long run if you overused them). If at least Mordecai had more than his shitty 40% def growth, I'd really like to play him, but as it is they're just plain bland units with not much going for them. They were usable for 3-4 chapters...yes, if you wanted to gimp your actual competent units by cutting their exp to give it to units who won't do anything with that exp since they barely improve at all. Lethe doubles but seems to barely deal any damage before endgame hits, Mordecai is actually faster than his RD version who just inherited his POR base stats in a far more difficult game, without the double stats he'd clearly be trash in RD, and in POR he's a wall with decent damage, hardly doubling, overshadowed by Muarim in about everything but def for a long time, and in POR, Laguz have common t2 prepromote HP instead of +10 base HP compared with high HP t2 units. At least they can take a hit with their HP, and res is a problem for them in both games. At least nullify in early access for a few turns in 2-E instead of 1-turning it is a thing so they don't suffer from tripple damage fire. And movable skills in RD are a saving grace for everyone while in POR you had to choose your favs before assigning any skill to anyone. If IS wanted to make Laguz good in POR, they should have given them actual stats and weapons. If beaststone + and beastbane didn't exist in Awakening, Taguel would definitely be complete garbage, at least they have a little niche with that, not awesome but enough to keep them in that class if the players wants to. In POR Laguz have weaknesses but 0 strengths, except not being in the WT. When you have such bad weapons, the WT doesn't really matter anyway. They don't deal double weapon damage to beasts, dragons, flyers or whatever and they can't even damage Ashnard except maybe Ena/Nasir or some endgame Laguz who are allowed by Their Highness IS who decide who has the right to kill the final boss...TSS at least let you kill it with anyone even if legendary weapons were mandatory, at least it wasn't lord only can kill the boss. And POR's difficulty curve is...very badly handled? what with ennemies not having the strength to wield their weapons for half of the game and then suddenly gaining a burst of stats (especially bosses, early game bosses have good damage but that's all and Daein's generals have...pretty spectacular OP stats with weapons that you can't even dream to use like the Flame lance, well I didn't play up to that point so maybe you can make use of it, just never had a chance to myself). Sure RD has its own difficulty problems, but at least it doesn't have 65% of piss easy chapters in hard mode (looking at you earlygame and midgame POR where any unit in your camp with decent def/speed could double steel weapons ennemies for a very long time before they started to actually have enough stats to cut you on that...but with BEXP you could as well have a 20/10+ Marcia at that time and then it didn't matter anymore if they had 15 speed or 0, she would doubled everyone she could fight in the game). I'd prefer Wpn Wt - Con rather than 3-9 strength ennemies gimped by iron/steel weapons for 15 chapters. That's why TSS is harder than POR, ennemies are not slowed down by every weapon in the game except pegasi who suck anyway before promotion and that only Eirika, Marisa and magic classes fear (except Boulder). TL;DR: POR has bad ennemies, but even like that they didn't manage to make Laguz worth anything. RD has strong ennemies, weak human form Laguz, average halfshift and killer full forms with double stats making up for bad human stats. All have their good and bad points, but at least in RD they can counter and deal damage (at least tigers) in human form and with the bane skills they can even deal good damage (21 for crows just from weapon Mt, 30 from tigers, at A strike, 36 for crows and 45 for tigers at S, 51 for crows and 60 for tigers at SS rank, with 0 strength). Double stats are just a way to make them relevant with low growth rates (and Blossom helps a lot in case you want to cap several stats, they don't gain much exp anyway but at least they can get more stats up with blossom because everything rolls 2x for level up). 22 def in human form is about the same as Stefan at base. He has more spd sure, but he isn't available before endgame and the absolute end of p4. 22 def with 65+ HP isn't bad by any means, and when transformed it's: "hey, try dealing any damage to me!" Before you say I'm going out of topic with other game comparisons, if I talk about Taguel/Ninetails/Uhfedin, it's because they are all the equivalent of Laguz in game that executed them better in some ways, like having useful class skills and a niche like permanent beastbane, healing 40% MHP every 2nd turn and such that kept them from beng trash classes, that could have been made for Laguz to make them relevant and worth using in either game. Beastbane doesn't even get a bonus vs horses in RD, like WTF IS? Fix your game please until I can edit it far enough to changes skills, weapons etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 On 10/26/2020 at 5:02 AM, mangasdeouf said: I'll only answer that since this discussion won't go anywhere because we both have our way to play and we don't share them. In POR, while Laguz were easier to use (sure, there was literally 0 management, yu just watch out for the gauge getting to 0 and then replenish, completely unskilled way to play, 0 satisfaction to make good plays, and no incentive to use them at all since even transformed their stats are garbage, Gatire with a few level ups has as much str/def as full form Mordecai and more speed), they were far from capping anything at all, they didn't have better weapons ever, like thieves for most of the game, at least Volke had a promotion and an S weapon, although I don't know if he can actually get his hands on it since S weapons seem to be absolutely not guaranteed to be acquired by the player in POR. Muarim seems average, good at first but really falling from a cliff when you go further, Mordecai's def was not even worth t2 Beorcs and honestly, the only things going for them was desert maps. I have no reason to believe that "satisfaction for making good plays" isn't something you just pulled out of your ass, because as this is a strategy game, I have to make the right moves to succeed. On 10/26/2020 at 5:02 AM, mangasdeouf said: If I had to compare Laguz in POR with anything, I'd compare them with prepromoted Ninetails without res (cats) and prepromoted Uhfedin with the Beastrune, both with +2 movement. Except Kaden and Keaton both have better growth rates than Lethe, Ranulf and Mordecai/Muarim and inherent class bonuses in t2, on top of better exp gain (but no BEXP), and they have E, C and B/A weapons with advantages and drawbacks, honestly beastrune is by far the best IMO (especially for Kaden who wants the def buff instead of debuff to get +6 def from beaststone). POR Laguz have none of it, just regular steel swords that never improve, stat caps inferior to the caps registered for their class in the class data (like caps around 30 when the registered data shows 34+ in the class caps, maybe Wikia is wrong on those numbers but it's weird). They don't even do anything better than Beorcs and flyers are stomping the game alongside cavalry anyway, which is not my preferred strategy (I think cavalry should have much lower stats to make up for movement and canto, and I think the caps in RD are just what they needed to be good for the wide maps but hurting you in the long run if you overused them). Again with the cross-game comparisons? Do you ever learn? They aren't helping your case. On 10/26/2020 at 5:02 AM, mangasdeouf said: If at least Mordecai had more than his shitty 40% def growth, I'd really like to play him, but as it is they're just plain bland units with not much going for them. They were usable for 3-4 chapters...yes, if you wanted to gimp your actual competent units by cutting their exp to give it to units who won't do anything with that exp since they barely improve at all. Lethe doubles but seems to barely deal any damage before endgame hits, Mordecai is actually faster than his RD version who just inherited his POR base stats in a far more difficult game, without the double stats he'd clearly be trash in RD, and in POR he's a wall with decent damage, hardly doubling, overshadowed by Muarim in about everything but def for a long time, and in POR, Laguz have common t2 prepromote HP instead of +10 base HP compared with high HP t2 units. At least they can take a hit with their HP, and res is a problem for them in both games. At least nullify in early access for a few turns in 2-E instead of 1-turning it is a thing so they don't suffer from tripple damage fire. And movable skills in RD are a saving grace for everyone while in POR you had to choose your favs before assigning any skill to anyone. You ask me, that sounds exactly like what laguz are in RD. It's very hard to justify investing in them when they require much more effort than beorc do and don't even pay off well enough to justify the effort most of the time; it's like watching a bear try to open a safe. Also, for what it's worth, some of the laguz could actually contribute early on in chapters in PoR. On 10/26/2020 at 5:02 AM, mangasdeouf said: If IS wanted to make Laguz good in POR, they should have given them actual stats and weapons. If beaststone + and beastbane didn't exist in Awakening, Taguel would definitely be complete garbage, at least they have a little niche with that, not awesome but enough to keep them in that class if the players wants to. In POR Laguz have weaknesses but 0 strengths, except not being in the WT. When you have such bad weapons, the WT doesn't really matter anyway. They don't deal double weapon damage to beasts, dragons, flyers or whatever and they can't even damage Ashnard except maybe Ena/Nasir or some endgame Laguz who are allowed by Their Highness IS who decide who has the right to kill the final boss...TSS at least let you kill it with anyone even if legendary weapons were mandatory, at least it wasn't lord only can kill the boss. Taguel is pretty much the worst class in Awakening aside from Villager. Anyway, the main character being expected to take out the final boss is something that this series had going on even in the NES days. The plethora of weapons that are effective against Fomortiis is one of the big reasons why it's considered one of the worst final bosses in the series. Getting back to the topic, RD laguz don't really have any meaningful strengths to make up for their weaknesses either. In fact, the fact their human forms are so easily killed renders them even worse off. On 10/26/2020 at 5:02 AM, mangasdeouf said: And POR's difficulty curve is...very badly handled? what with ennemies not having the strength to wield their weapons for half of the game and then suddenly gaining a burst of stats (especially bosses, early game bosses have good damage but that's all and Daein's generals have...pretty spectacular OP stats with weapons that you can't even dream to use like the Flame lance, well I didn't play up to that point so maybe you can make use of it, just never had a chance to myself). Sure RD has its own difficulty problems, but at least it doesn't have 65% of piss easy chapters in hard mode (looking at you earlygame and midgame POR where any unit in your camp with decent def/speed could double steel weapons ennemies for a very long time before they started to actually have enough stats to cut you on that...but with BEXP you could as well have a 20/10+ Marcia at that time and then it didn't matter anymore if they had 15 speed or 0, she would doubled everyone she could fight in the game). I'd prefer Wpn Wt - Con rather than 3-9 strength ennemies gimped by iron/steel weapons for 15 chapters. That's why TSS is harder than POR, ennemies are not slowed down by every weapon in the game except pegasi who suck anyway before promotion and that only Eirika, Marisa and magic classes fear (except Boulder). So you'd rather have the hilarity that is GBA steel lance pegasus knights (incidentally, the difficulty curve in the GBA games was not handled well)? Okay then. And it's not like enemies didn't weigh themselves down much in GBA - if anything, it was worse there, because aside from poor stats, the constitution-based AS system meant enemy units often weighed themselves down, which generally made doubling them easy (especially since enemies favored steel weapons). Case in point: Lyon in Sacred Stones has next to no AS in both fights with him. He's not even that fast to begin with, but he's a 7 con unit using weapons that have 18 weight, and thus destroying his AS. I'd expect better than to have the second to last boss with AS in the single digits, especially when said boss can be doubled by people with AS in the single digits. In that sense, I'd say the strength-based AS system was an improvement, largely because it was actually worth upgrading from iron to steel, whereas in GBA, it generally tended to not be worth it for most units (and even if it was, killer weapons have the same might and less weight). Weight was also an issue with two of the three personal weapons the lords got in the final chapter in Blazing Blade. Hector can use Armads without much speed loss, but Eliwood and Lyn aren't so lucky, and in fact are much better off using lighter weapons so that they can actually double enemies. On 10/26/2020 at 5:02 AM, mangasdeouf said: TL;DR: POR has bad ennemies, but even like that they didn't manage to make Laguz worth anything. RD has strong ennemies, weak human form Laguz, average halfshift and killer full forms with double stats making up for bad human stats. All have their good and bad points, but at least in RD they can counter and deal damage (at least tigers) in human form and with the bane skills they can even deal good damage (21 for crows just from weapon Mt, 30 from tigers, at A strike, 36 for crows and 45 for tigers at S, 51 for crows and 60 for tigers at SS rank, with 0 strength). Double stats are just a way to make them relevant with low growth rates (and Blossom helps a lot in case you want to cap several stats, they don't gain much exp anyway but at least they can get more stats up with blossom because everything rolls 2x for level up). 22 def in human form is about the same as Stefan at base. He has more spd sure, but he isn't available before endgame and the absolute end of p4. 22 def with 65+ HP isn't bad by any means, and when transformed it's: "hey, try dealing any damage to me!" Before you say I'm going out of topic with other game comparisons, if I talk about Taguel/Ninetails/Uhfedin, it's because they are all the equivalent of Laguz in game that executed them better in some ways, like having useful class skills and a niche like permanent beastbane, healing 40% MHP every 2nd turn and such that kept them from beng trash classes, that could have been made for Laguz to make them relevant and worth using in either game. Beastbane doesn't even get a bonus vs horses in RD, like WTF IS? Fix your game please until I can edit it far enough to changes skills, weapons etc. They were still better off than in RD, where untransformed laguz essentially had big "KICK ME" signs in bright neon letters, and they generally either wouldn't live or would be at death's door if they were attacked untransformed. Doubling their stats when they transform doesn't make up for this, because the fact they're slow to improve relative to beorc remains, which means unless they were already good, you have a Herculean labor on your hands. Trying to get the ones that DON'T start good to a point where they're viable is about as exciting as watching paint dry while listening to nails scratching a chalkboard. Also, Beastbane doesn't exist in RD - only the -foe skills, which anyone can use, and they're all rather niche anyway as beorc are a huge majority of what you fight. As to your point about effective might and strikes, the crows you get have low availability, and the tigers are hardly fantastic. The logical result? You have to go completely out of your way for them to get SS strike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mangasdeouf Posted November 5, 2020 Author Share Posted November 5, 2020 23 hours ago, Shadow Mir said: except pegasi who suck anyway before promotion and that only Eirika, Marisa and magic classes fear (except Boulder) 22 hours ago, Shadow Mir said: I have no reason to believe that "satisfaction for making good plays" isn't something you just pulled out of your ass, because as this is a strategy game, I have to make the right moves to succeed. Maybe you don't, maybe I do. For me, succeeding in manadging an army with weaknesses and strengths is much more staisfying than it would be to have an army of Haar and Tibarn who stomp the game with 0 strategy. They help in hard times, like in p2 when you have Brom Nephenee who either don't have speed to double or can't take 2 hits from any promoted ennemy, which is the majority of what you fight in 2-E, Marcia who barely improved from 2-P since her str/def bases and growths are everything but impressive and BEXP doesn't even fix her before like 10 CEXP level ups...and the CKs come in too late to be of any use. Other than the moments where the map design and the difficulty curve nearly force you to bring your aces, I much prefer challenging myself by choosing to use using that aren't invincible all the time or that have drawbacks for invicibility. If all my PTs were Haar-centric for the whole part where he's available, I'd be completely bored of the game and would never touch it again. Well, Tibarn is a better example than Haar since he's invincible and has the highest movement in the game for some Unintelligent Systems reason, and Haar most of the time is just a more functionnal early flier than what we're usually given (AKA sucky pegasi who need an energy drop, a seraph robe and a dragonshield to be able to fight more than 1 round and kill something some day...did I just sum up Jill? She's even worse actually since she has 4 less chapters to do that than usual early fliers in their group and outside of FE7 Florina if that's her name, fliers don't get thrown out of the playable group for several chapters to come back with still the same combat issues they came with 10 chapters ago, exactly what Florina and Jill suffer from) Again with the cross-game comparisons? Do you ever learn? They aren't helping your case. The topic title IS cross-game comparison, I just widened it to give useful comparisons with what has been done on similar units in other games of the series because it's been done better. If Mordecai had 70% def, 130% hp, 40% speed, 60% skl, 60% str, 20% res, most people would probably play him past p2. If he had the same availability as Haar in p3 it would help. Just fire availability team and form a competent team next time a game of this kind is made. Maybe Three Houses is one. I don't care, it's on a shitty game device that costs nearly as much as the PS4 and barely has 2 titles I wish I could play. I bet it doesn't even have 2. Also Three Houses could as well not exist, I couldn't care less. Hogwarts simulator and hunting and fishing TV programs gotta keep their 13 / 60 YO audience respectively, I'm not these kinds of person. You ask me, that sounds exactly like what laguz are in RD. It's very hard to justify investing in them when they require much more effort than beorc do and don't even pay off well enough to justify the effort most of the time; it's like watching a bear try to open a safe. Also, for what it's worth, some of the laguz could actually contribute early on in chapters in PoR. For what it's worth in anything but LTC Lethe can fight on turn 1 and 2, maybe 3 before untransforming and doubles about everything she fights unless it's a swordmaster. Meanwhile Mordecai takes 0 damage in full form from almost everything physical until the end of p3. That's not investment, that's a fact, something they do at base and for Mordecai, that no one else can do before Tibarn shows up (or Ulki if you count dodge tanking as invincibility although he doesn't start invincible in human form, he wants A-earth to achieve that). Taguel is pretty much the worst class in Awakening aside from Villager. Anyway, the main character being expected to take out the final boss is something that this series had going on even in the NES days. The plethora of weapons that are effective against Fomortiis is one of the big reasons why it's considered one of the worst final bosses in the series. Getting back to the topic, RD laguz don't really have any meaningful strengths to make up for their weaknesses either. In fact, the fact their human forms are so easily killed renders them even worse off. Except Panne, the only guaranteed Taguel, has as much HP as base Frederick, more base speed than Cordelia, decent base damage and decent def for this early in the game. Taguel also has the same def groth as knight in case you didn't go look on the data on this website. It even has only 5% HP growth less than knight, while having more speed and skill, and 5% less strength. After beating Walhart you unlock the beaststone + that is basically a better beastslayer that enhances even more her stats, finally improving her bulk a little more than the +1 of the beaststone. I also has more uses than the beastslayer and you don't have to forge it each time to have decent Mt (beatslayer needs a forge in early game just so your lance users can actually one shoot cavs in ch 6 although the only use of beastslayer is to...kill cavaliers, pegasi and Griffon riders, which it fails to achieve if your unit isn't 10 levels over the ennemy, at which point it can kill it without the slayer weapon anyway, at least a Taguel with beastbane can ORKO a paladin while being underlevelled because doubling + 12 Mt = win, also doing that for 2k gold at a point where you can't legit buy silvers or braves or killers is always nice, and beaststone is more accurate than any of these weapons before a 1500 gold forge without counting the buying price). The fact that an unit tanks more than its peers with it's HP alone means it's still a better unit than the ones who die if you just let them fight when their only job is...to fight. Especially when their weapons (or the ones they can use and double with) suck. Also, weapon accuracy. 90% vs 60-75%, the winner is...form changers! Especially if you fight real ennemies or leadership stars bullshit. Which RD loves throwing at you in the dark without a damn torch, with garbage map torches, I'd prefer wating a turn lighting a movng torch around my unit and have 3x more map awareness than having several free torches around the map that ennemies can extinguish and that barely give any vision anyway, Heather gives more vision and moves, thus Heather is better than torches in RD. Heather 10/10 in 2-2 because without her I wouldn't see anything on most of the map. Doesn't even have to fight for that. So you'd rather have the hilarity that is GBA steel lance pegasus knights (incidentally, the difficulty curve in the GBA games was not handled well)? Okay then. And it's not like enemies didn't weigh themselves down much in GBA - if anything, it was worse there, because aside from poor stats, the constitution-based AS system meant enemy units often weighed themselves down, which generally made doubling them easy (especially since enemies favored steel weapons). Case in point: Lyon in Sacred Stones has next to no AS in both fights with him. He's not even that fast to begin with, but he's a 7 con unit using weapons that have 18 weight, and thus destroying his AS. I'd expect better than to have the second to last boss with AS in the single digits, especially when said boss can be doubled by people with AS in the single digits. In that sense, I'd say the strength-based AS system was an improvement, largely because it was actually worth upgrading from iron to steel, whereas in GBA, it generally tended to not be worth it for most units (and even if it was, killer weapons have the same might and less weight). Weight was also an issue with two of the three personal weapons the lords got in the final chapter in Blazing Blade. Hector can use Armads without much speed loss, but Eliwood and Lyn aren't so lucky, and in fact are much better off using lighter weapons so that they can actually double enemies. "except pegasi who suck anyway before promotion and that only Eirika, Marisa and magic classes fear" quoted myself. Did Lyon suddenly change from a magic class to a physical one? Also, I must prefer freedom of choice building my team than being forced to train the lord because NEEU ONE ELSS IZ ALLOWD TO FAIT DEEU BWOSS. I hate lords and barely use them past the 3rd chapter after getting them, when I have enough units to ditch them. If I could, I wouldn't even field them. Why would I be forced to play the lord? They can have all the story development they want, if I can not field Ryoma, why can't I not field Ike? Well, Ike at least is bearable, he's badass and has actual base stats. Even Ephraim and Chrom don't reach 1/10th of RD Ike's badassitude. In History, most lords, counts, dukes etc. never fought in battles, only taking duels, tournaments or they just waited for the battle to be near finished and went straight for the richest looking ennemy still living and made them prisonner or killed them without effort once they were exhausted and wounded. If my lord is a general or a ruler, he isn't supposed to fight. A general in the center of the army is badass, but it's stupid as well, because when he dies there's no one left to take the commands from. That's why generals watch from a good position, to see what happens, just like the player in FE, and give orders from the beginning to the end. Also, if they're taken prisonners, their faction has to give gold to the ennemy to take them back or let one of their generals be killed or go to the ennemy. They were still better off than in RD, where untransformed laguz essentially had big "KICK ME" signs in bright neon letters, and they generally either wouldn't live or would be at death's door if they were attacked untransformed. Doubling their stats when they transform doesn't make up for this, because the fact they're slow to improve relative to beorc remains, which means unless they were already good, you have a Herculean labor on your hands. Trying to get the ones that DON'T start good to a point where they're viable is about as exciting as watching paint dry while listening to nails scratching a chalkboard. Also, Beastbane doesn't exist in RD - only the -foe skills, which anyone can use, and they're all rather niche anyway as beorc are a huge majority of what you fight. As to your point about effective might and strikes, the crows you get have low availability, and the tigers are hardly fantastic. The logical result? You have to go completely out of your way for them to get SS strike. Being better in a state in which you're not really supposed to fight doesn't mean much. I'd like them to have weapons of course, I'd give tigers lances, hawks bows, ravens daggers/knives, cats swords and lions/dragons axes, but since I'm not able to mod that for the moment, all I can do is play around it. I have way enough units to fill the gaps and use my Laguz the way I want. The only thing I'd like would be Kyza having better speed, I think he should've been the second wolf, he's grey, neither speedy nor hulky, he's average, just like the wolf class if you look at their stat caps, 70 HP, 40 str, 36 spd, 30 def, 24 or so res, 46 skl, that's exactly what Kyza would've wanted, also his personal bases on top of wolf's (Volug's) base stats would've been very usable, probably even needing for a nerf (or innate unremovable halfshift for p3 like Volug for p1, since he has a bland personnality it wouldn't have changed much story-wise, with halfshift and personal bases + Volug's bases he'd be capped in several stats but with 75% stats it would be manadgeable, it would also confirm him as Ranulf's second in command, he's to Ranulf what Giffca is to Caineghis basically but it doesn't show in the gameplay). When you use dancers, do you expect them to survive a fight? When you use a mage, do you expect them to take an ennemy phase? I guess not. Yet you probably still use them. Laguz in human form have just hwat they need to take 1 or 2 rounds of combat untrasnformed, which is already more than mages and dancers can pretend, and in animal form more than half of the Laguz are actually as good if not already better with no investment than the equivalent Beorc for the same job. If you want to compare Laguz to anything, comare them with Edward's biorythm that goes crazy, only Laguz transformation gauge is more manageable than Ed's shitty biorythm, and Edward can't fight two ennemies at worst biorythm since he probably won't dodge and thus die. At least most Laguz benefit from Ike's, Lucia's or Elincia's leadership stars, which is better than the nonexistent leadership stars of Micaiah. Even random bosses give their army +5/+10 hit avoid, but Micaiah gives a flat 0. 3 turns of 32 base def in p2/3 is better than permanent 23-26 def, because you know exactly when you can go god mode and when you have to put a low profile and play safer. That's why tanks are good in war, but if they face anti tank weaponry they have to manoeuver carefully not to get blown up. Mordecai is a tank with a self limiting weaponry that allows him to go wild when he's able to roam and then he just has to wait 3 turns before going wild again or fight once and wait 1 turn. Haar is better mostly because 9 move outside and flight. Gatrie isn't better than Mordecai by any means other than availability. I'd much prefer having a clone of Mordecai with 30 initial gauge so that I can take turns with both rather than having an army of worthless Beorcs that move slowly and don't even have good stats for most of them. Just compare the so hated Kyza with OMG earth affinity LOL Oscar. Kyza beats him in almost every stat in tiger, and he's the worst out of the 3. If your 20/20 Oscar with 32 spd cap and str/def caps that rivals...halfshift tigers is supposed to impress me in endgame where he's got 7 movement like any foot unit and where royal Laguz are the base for stat comparison, with accessible Laguz gems now, then I'd better give my CEXP to Kyza, Mordecai, Volug, Janaff, Ulki, Muarim and Zihark (because he doubles and is the best Beorc to use Resolve on because he has natural early access to it and has the highest base avo of DB units + earth affinity, also more chances to activate his other skill to double attack on double attacks, also his biorythm isn't as chaotic as Eddie's) than I'd give it to Oscar, Kieran (even though I quite like him, less than Danved but still), any other mounted unit that doesn't fly, or any lolreaver. They have great caps in t3, yes lol, since when does it matter on Serenes Forest? If we take stat caps into the count then even Vika is decent to good. The difference is availability. But if you're giving so much exp to Nolan/Boyd who absolutely NEED to cap their speed at 34 to double endgame bosses otherwise they're just worse versions of Gatrie, and Gatrie beats Nolan in str/def for the whole game while he beats Boyd in spd/def for almost the whole game (all of the game in def but matched and surpassed in speed eventually). I could as well give a white pool boost to speed capped Muarim and let him go wild on these bosses, since h's the closest one to capping speed and strength at base. Same goes for Skrimir and Giffca but even easier to accomplish and Skrimir has 34 speed cap, so why should I level Boyd 34 times or Nolan 51 times just to get something Muarim/Skrimir can accomplish with speedwings and Giffca does literally at base? They also have better caps than Gatrie in t3, they're better marshalls than marshalls themselves, better reavers than reavers themselves. All they need is...a chant or a gem. Why would I waste a heron's turn to sing for a Laguz gauge? Because the Laguz fights twice better than any Beorc I can raise, and if I want t3 Beorcs, I'm given 3 of them with enough base stats to work in the tower, these are Stefan, Volke and Garry Old Man Totally Not Bertram Who Sadly Can't Wield The Amiti But Is Still Good Enough With 0 Investment To Be Put To Work Especially Since He Has A Base Res. I don't glorify Laguz if it's what it seems. I just put things in the context of a tactical and strategical game. If they can do what other do with less investment, they're better. Volug having the same caps as reavers with better skill and base hit (except with Tarvos and Urvan because OP base accuracy while Ragnell and Alondite, legendary weapons of the heroes of light and shadow have 80 or 85 accuracy...but ranged weapons are pretty inacurate in general in this game except one type of axes for some reasons) and +2 spd ensuring he can double most if not every aura with white tide, with 9 move instead of 7, more skill capacity for almost the whole game and unlimited and self-upgrading weapon, means he doesn't take as much ressources as Reavers. CEXP isn't needed since he caps everything or nearly everything without more than 3 stats per level up, BEXP is abundant enough for his 25 level ups while it's not abundant enough for Nolan's level ups, or you can always Nolan a BEXP level just before he levels up naturally when he finally caps 2 stats after 25 lvel ups because his high base level means jack shit if his base stats are comparable to those of Meg, only with a slightly better distribution but worse practical use, since he's weighed down by the only 1 range axes he can use for the first 4 chapters of the game and his high skill doesn't make up for axes shitty hit rates before Tarvos/Urvan. 7 base speed effectively, Meg has 8, and she has more base def and the same growth with 6 levels more to get points when she still gains exp in p1. Meg isn't very good (mostly due to her move type and 5-6 movement combined), but if she isn't, then Nolan is just barely decent if you feed him all the exp to get something that barely outshines what he could do with an early promotion since he doesn't really improve before very long. Also if Volug doesn't reach his str cap, so doesn't Nolan. But Volug has much less save scumming needed to cap str than Nolan, since if you give the same favoritism that is commonly given to Nolan to Volug instead, he still does the job better. And Nolan still isn't ORKOing anything with a hand axe before very, very long, at which point Volug has been ORKOing everything but generals/tigers in melee since he's available and at the other side of the map at that, while your team of weaklings is still blocked by ennemies with better stats than them for most of the game and your other overlevelled units in the DB are fast caught up on by the ennemies, can't move around or have no availability, making them forcefully stay scrubs until p4 lets you give favoritism to whoever you want. The best DB overlevelled unit is Tauroneo, and after he comes back he's average or even below average since he can't double anymore except vs tigers he can't ORKO anyway (but who can double everything except Zihark, trained Edward and...still Volug, maybe trained Jill if she can ORKO before becoming unsalvageable). Efficient vs non efficient: having access to units that need no training to have t3 base stats but need micromanagement and that could be outclassed by t3 units if only these units had better stat caps then them, which isn't the case and just means the best base stats still win in final stats even if they don't reach their god mode caps because when t3 have the same stats as base decent Laguz (not even comparing them to good Laguz like Janaff and Ulki, I don't want to insult them), if these Laguz have levelled up 2 or 3x they're already better than the Beorcs who took 10 chapters just to reach their bases and doing all that was pointless because prepromotes will do that 2 chapters later with 0 investment anyway. TL;DR: Use who you want alongside Haar Ike and maybe Titania before she falls off because her def growth is garbage and after promotion she barely improves defensively at all. Laguz are not the easiest to use, but they're definitely the most effective when used right. If you can't use your tools correctly, it's not necessary the tools' fault, even if in this case we all agree to say that these tools could have been handled better and thus have been easier to use correctly, otherwise there wouldn't be any topic trying to point out bad things about them and how they could have been/become better in a future game. But doesn't Serenes Forest community usually say everything's too easy anyway? then why not challenge yourselves in playing with these tools instead of doing the same thing every other game over and over again? It's by playing with all of your toys that you learn which ones you like the most, not by following a restrained line of thought that everything has to be played in one way. FE still is a game, and each one has fun differently in a game, even if it's the same game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted November 6, 2020 Share Posted November 6, 2020 On 11/4/2020 at 7:35 PM, mangasdeouf said: Maybe you don't, maybe I do. For me, succeeding in manadging an army with weaknesses and strengths is much more staisfying than it would be to have an army of Haar and Tibarn who stomp the game with 0 strategy. They help in hard times, like in p2 when you have Brom Nephenee who either don't have speed to double or can't take 2 hits from any promoted ennemy, which is the majority of what you fight in 2-E, Marcia who barely improved from 2-P since her str/def bases and growths are everything but impressive and BEXP doesn't even fix her before like 10 CEXP level ups...and the CKs come in too late to be of any use. Other than the moments where the map design and the difficulty curve nearly force you to bring your aces, I much prefer challenging myself by choosing to use using that aren't invincible all the time or that have drawbacks for invicibility. If all my PTs were Haar-centric for the whole part where he's available, I'd be completely bored of the game and would never touch it again. Well, Tibarn is a better example than Haar since he's invincible and has the highest movement in the game for some Unintelligent Systems reason, and Haar most of the time is just a more functionnal early flier than what we're usually given (AKA sucky pegasi who need an energy drop, a seraph robe and a dragonshield to be able to fight more than 1 round and kill something some day...did I just sum up Jill? She's even worse actually since she has 4 less chapters to do that than usual early fliers in their group and outside of FE7 Florina if that's her name, fliers don't get thrown out of the playable group for several chapters to come back with still the same combat issues they came with 10 chapters ago, exactly what Florina and Jill suffer from) I could just as easily say they make things even harder when the situation is already unfavorable for me. See: 2-2. I have only 8 units to work with, and four of those are laguz, with one of those being Leanne, which leaves me with 7 combat units, less than half of whom are actually reliable in combat. That means I'm essentially starting with FOUR liabilities for the first few turns, two of whom must not die. In a fog of war map. Yay? Also, Blazing Blade enemies are weak as hell, so I don't think Florina has it as bad as you claim. On 11/4/2020 at 7:35 PM, mangasdeouf said: The topic title IS cross-game comparison, I just widened it to give useful comparisons with what has been done on similar units in other games of the series because it's been done better. If Mordecai had 70% def, 130% hp, 40% speed, 60% skl, 60% str, 20% res, most people would probably play him past p2. If he had the same availability as Haar in p3 it would help. Just fire availability team and form a competent team next time a game of this kind is made. Maybe Three Houses is one. I don't care, it's on a shitty game device that costs nearly as much as the PS4 and barely has 2 titles I wish I could play. I bet it doesn't even have 2. Also Three Houses could as well not exist, I couldn't care less. Hogwarts simulator and hunting and fishing TV programs gotta keep their 13 / 60 YO audience respectively, I'm not these kinds of person. Between two games that are directly connected to each other in terms of systems and stories, and thus were bound to have some of the same gameplay mechanics. Compare to you randomly bringing up Sacred Stones or whatever, which is not only on a completely different system, but was released well before the game this thread is centered on. Also, two words for you and your anti-Switch propaganda: NOBODY. CARES. On 11/4/2020 at 7:35 PM, mangasdeouf said: For what it's worth in anything but LTC Lethe can fight on turn 1 and 2, maybe 3 before untransforming and doubles about everything she fights unless it's a swordmaster. Meanwhile Mordecai takes 0 damage in full form from almost everything physical until the end of p3. That's not investment, that's a fact, something they do at base and for Mordecai, that no one else can do before Tibarn shows up (or Ulki if you count dodge tanking as invincibility although he doesn't start invincible in human form, he wants A-earth to achieve that). Lethe still sucks due to cats being a crappy class to begin with, and she's stuck needing to wait until turn 3 at the earliest without the use of a laguz stone, which are very limited in number. Not to mention her stats are barely better than those of Lyre - the same Lyre who's not only got a transformed offense that's equivalent to Mist, she's also considered the worst unit in the game. That's enough for me to consider her not worth using. As for Mordecai, I don't care if he can tank transformed - it's not enough for me to ignore that the moment he reverts, he's in big trouble. You want facts? That's a fact. On 11/4/2020 at 7:35 PM, mangasdeouf said: Except Panne, the only guaranteed Taguel, has as much HP as base Frederick, more base speed than Cordelia, decent base damage and decent def for this early in the game. Taguel also has the same def groth as knight in case you didn't go look on the data on this website. It even has only 5% HP growth less than knight, while having more speed and skill, and 5% less strength. After beating Walhart you unlock the beaststone + that is basically a better beastslayer that enhances even more her stats, finally improving her bulk a little more than the +1 of the beaststone. I also has more uses than the beastslayer and you don't have to forge it each time to have decent Mt (beatslayer needs a forge in early game just so your lance users can actually one shoot cavs in ch 6 although the only use of beastslayer is to...kill cavaliers, pegasi and Griffon riders, which it fails to achieve if your unit isn't 10 levels over the ennemy, at which point it can kill it without the slayer weapon anyway, at least a Taguel with beastbane can ORKO a paladin while being underlevelled because doubling + 12 Mt = win, also doing that for 2k gold at a point where you can't legit buy silvers or braves or killers is always nice, and beaststone is more accurate than any of these weapons before a 1500 gold forge without counting the buying price). The fact that an unit tanks more than its peers with it's HP alone means it's still a better unit than the ones who die if you just let them fight when their only job is...to fight. Especially when their weapons (or the ones they can use and double with) suck. Also, weapon accuracy. 90% vs 60-75%, the winner is...form changers! Especially if you fight real ennemies or leadership stars bullshit. Which RD loves throwing at you in the dark without a damn torch, with garbage map torches, I'd prefer wating a turn lighting a movng torch around my unit and have 3x more map awareness than having several free torches around the map that ennemies can extinguish and that barely give any vision anyway, Heather gives more vision and moves, thus Heather is better than torches in RD. Heather 10/10 in 2-2 because without her I wouldn't see anything on most of the map. Doesn't even have to fight for that. News flash: High HP doesn't make up for bad defenses. If it did, then those slowpoke fighters would actually be decent tanks, but nope. And it most definitely doesn't make up for being doubled by everything - a lot of knights tend to be outclassed by units that are supposedly less durable than them because those other units have the speed to not get doubled. From where I'm standing, Mordecai has that problem in RD. Once he reverts, he winds up so slow, that he is ALWAYS getting doubled, meaning his supposedly impressive durability isn't that good in practice. Also, Panne is limited by her beaststone having only 50 uses until after chapter 10 comes along, as its boss drops another (and it has the might level of an iron sword, to boot. Not to mention that she has to use that for most of the game, which means if she stays in Taguel, she's likely to be a weak link while everyone else gets stronger and better weapons; the Beaststone+ comes too late to remedy this, especially since silver weapons are buyable well before it, as in after chapter 14. Not that it's much better for anti-rider purposes than a beast killer, because it isn't). Let's just say that there's a reason why Panne is often recommended to be reclassed... On 11/4/2020 at 7:35 PM, mangasdeouf said: Being better in a state in which you're not really supposed to fight doesn't mean much. I'd like them to have weapons of course, I'd give tigers lances, hawks bows, ravens daggers/knives, cats swords and lions/dragons axes, but since I'm not able to mod that for the moment, all I can do is play around it. I have way enough units to fill the gaps and use my Laguz the way I want. The only thing I'd like would be Kyza having better speed, I think he should've been the second wolf, he's grey, neither speedy nor hulky, he's average, just like the wolf class if you look at their stat caps, 70 HP, 40 str, 36 spd, 30 def, 24 or so res, 46 skl, that's exactly what Kyza would've wanted, also his personal bases on top of wolf's (Volug's) base stats would've been very usable, probably even needing for a nerf (or innate unremovable halfshift for p3 like Volug for p1, since he has a bland personnality it wouldn't have changed much story-wise, with halfshift and personal bases + Volug's bases he'd be capped in several stats but with 75% stats it would be manadgeable, it would also confirm him as Ranulf's second in command, he's to Ranulf what Giffca is to Caineghis basically but it doesn't show in the gameplay). When you use dancers, do you expect them to survive a fight? When you use a mage, do you expect them to take an ennemy phase? I guess not. Yet you probably still use them. Laguz in human form have just hwat they need to take 1 or 2 rounds of combat untrasnformed, which is already more than mages and dancers can pretend, and in animal form more than half of the Laguz are actually as good if not already better with no investment than the equivalent Beorc for the same job. If you want to compare Laguz to anything, comare them with Edward's biorythm that goes crazy, only Laguz transformation gauge is more manageable than Ed's shitty biorythm, and Edward can't fight two ennemies at worst biorythm since he probably won't dodge and thus die. At least most Laguz benefit from Ike's, Lucia's or Elincia's leadership stars, which is better than the nonexistent leadership stars of Micaiah. Even random bosses give their army +5/+10 hit avoid, but Micaiah gives a flat 0. 3 turns of 32 base def in p2/3 is better than permanent 23-26 def, because you know exactly when you can go god mode and when you have to put a low profile and play safer. That's why tanks are good in war, but if they face anti tank weaponry they have to manoeuver carefully not to get blown up. Mordecai is a tank with a self limiting weaponry that allows him to go wild when he's able to roam and then he just has to wait 3 turns before going wild again or fight once and wait 1 turn. The point is that in RD, they're killed far too easily, which is especially bad when they are stuck with drastically reduced experience gain when transformed. In POR, I could actually expose them to attack while untransformed to get them to transform sooner. Doing that in RD is more like robbing a police station. Using laguz in RD feels more like a fool's bargain other than the like 3 that are legitimately good, as they require jumping through an insane amount of hoops to work with and the reward doesn't justify it, nor does it even come close. Which goes back to my earlier point that I'm pretty much never better off fielding a laguz unit instead of a beorc - it's like picking up a hammer in Smash Bros. only for it to lose its head immediately, which means if anyone with even half a brain is nearby, I'm screwed. Dancers are generally not meant to see combat (however, depending on the game, a leveled up dancer can be hard for the enemy to hit). I am okay with exposing mages when I can get away with it, which is usually against other mages. In RD, Laguz in human form are not only slow, they're about as durable as wet toilet paper. I shouldn't have to tell you how they're coming out of battle after that. Also, correction: Mordecai's a tank that has to worry about turning into something I cannot call a tank, and can't do anything if the enemy attacks him out of melee range. As a result, I find it very hard to justify using him in part 3 when I have no shortage of all-stars. On 11/4/2020 at 7:35 PM, mangasdeouf said: Haar is better mostly because 9 move outside and flight. Gatrie isn't better than Mordecai by any means other than availability. I'd much prefer having a clone of Mordecai with 30 initial gauge so that I can take turns with both rather than having an army of worthless Beorcs that move slowly and don't even have good stats for most of them. I would say not needing to worry about being useless is a big win, because that's something that perpetually hounds laguz no matter how much babying you give them. Not to mention not needing to attack 70 times for a stronger weapon (ugh). Or needing to attack 80 more times for SS strike (lol). Anyway, I wouldn't be so welcoming of a Mordecai clone when everything that happens to him happens to Mordecai himself - death included. Two liabilities is worse than one. On 11/4/2020 at 7:35 PM, mangasdeouf said: Just compare the so hated Kyza with OMG earth affinity LOL Oscar. Kyza beats him in almost every stat in tiger, and he's the worst out of the 3. If your 20/20 Oscar with 32 spd cap and str/def caps that rivals...halfshift tigers is supposed to impress me in endgame where he's got 7 movement like any foot unit and where royal Laguz are the base for stat comparison, with accessible Laguz gems now, then I'd better give my CEXP to Kyza, Mordecai, Volug, Janaff, Ulki, Muarim and Zihark (because he doubles and is the best Beorc to use Resolve on because he has natural early access to it and has the highest base avo of DB units + earth affinity, also more chances to activate his other skill to double attack on double attacks, also his biorythm isn't as chaotic as Eddie's) than I'd give it to Oscar, Kieran (even though I quite like him, less than Danved but still), any other mounted unit that doesn't fly, or any lolreaver. They have great caps in t3, yes lol, since when does it matter on Serenes Forest? If we take stat caps into the count then even Vika is decent to good. The difference is availability. Except when Kyza reverts he's essentially cannon fodder - aka, he's easily killed. Oscar has his own problems, yes, but none as big as this (or for that matter, the other problems that Kyza has to grapple with as a laguz). Also, caps don't tell the whole story, given that they're only relevant for a tiny portion of the game. FYI, half-shifted tigers only have 22 (or 23) speed when capped. They're already one of the worst endgame classes, and that's not helping them. I might be able to get away with using them in endgame... on easy mode. On 11/4/2020 at 7:35 PM, mangasdeouf said: "except pegasi who suck anyway before promotion and that only Eirika, Marisa and magic classes fear" quoted myself. Did Lyon suddenly change from a magic class to a physical one? Also, I must prefer freedom of choice building my team than being forced to train the lord because NEEU ONE ELSS IZ ALLOWD TO FAIT DEEU BWOSS. I hate lords and barely use them past the 3rd chapter after getting them, when I have enough units to ditch them. If I could, I wouldn't even field them. Why would I be forced to play the lord? They can have all the story development they want, if I can not field Ryoma, why can't I not field Ike? Well, Ike at least is bearable, he's badass and has actual base stats. Even Ephraim and Chrom don't reach 1/10th of RD Ike's badassitude. In History, most lords, counts, dukes etc. never fought in battles, only taking duels, tournaments or they just waited for the battle to be near finished and went straight for the richest looking ennemy still living and made them prisonner or killed them without effort once they were exhausted and wounded. If my lord is a general or a ruler, he isn't supposed to fight. A general in the center of the army is badass, but it's stupid as well, because when he dies there's no one left to take the commands from. That's why generals watch from a good position, to see what happens, just like the player in FE, and give orders from the beginning to the end. Also, if they're taken prisonners, their faction has to give gold to the ennemy to take them back or let one of their generals be killed or go to the ennemy. So you'd rather make the game harder for yourself. Which is what using laguz does. Seems you're a glutton for punishment. Or a masochist. Maybe even both. Also, the reality is, even if a general was to go down, that doesn't always mean the army they were commanding is gonna fall apart like a house of cards. Case in point (from an entirely different game): The Yiga Clan doesn't fall apart once their master is killed. If anything, that gives them even MORE motivation to fight. On 11/4/2020 at 7:35 PM, mangasdeouf said: But if you're giving so much exp to Nolan/Boyd who absolutely NEED to cap their speed at 34 to double endgame bosses otherwise they're just worse versions of Gatrie, and Gatrie beats Nolan in str/def for the whole game while he beats Boyd in spd/def for almost the whole game (all of the game in def but matched and surpassed in speed eventually). I could as well give a white pool boost to speed capped Muarim and let him go wild on these bosses, since h's the closest one to capping speed and strength at base. Same goes for Skrimir and Giffca but even easier to accomplish and Skrimir has 34 speed cap, so why should I level Boyd 34 times or Nolan 51 times just to get something Muarim/Skrimir can accomplish with speedwings and Giffca does literally at base? They also have better caps than Gatrie in t3, they're better marshalls than marshalls themselves, better reavers than reavers themselves. All they need is...a chant or a gem. Endgame wise, Tigers cannot double anything of note on anything other than easy mode thanks to a lousy 30 speed cap (and even then, that's only due to the blessing giving +5 to all stats). Even if they were good in endgame, which they aren't, the hardest boss in the game has a chance to instantly gib whoever is fool enough to attack him in melee (to say nothing of other enemies nearby I'd want to avoid killing). Also, they're worse off in the end because their poor resistance is going to be targeted, and as everything has range, they can't counter, meaning they just get swarmed. In any instance, that gem they need could be better used by Reyson. On 11/4/2020 at 7:35 PM, mangasdeouf said: Why would I waste a heron's turn to sing for a Laguz gauge? Because the Laguz fights twice better than any Beorc I can raise, and if I want t3 Beorcs, I'm given 3 of them with enough base stats to work in the tower, these are Stefan, Volke and Garry Old Man Totally Not Bertram Who Sadly Can't Wield The Amiti But Is Still Good Enough With 0 Investment To Be Put To Work Especially Since He Has A Base Res. I can just as easily ask, why waste my time and resources on laguz that are slow to improve and are impaired by a myriad of weaknesses when beorc are ten billion percent faster to improve? Because more often than not, the laguz's battlefield performance doesn't make up for their many weaknesses. Take Lethe, for example. She levels up like a third tier unit without the stats of one. She's also a cat, which is the worst class in the game. The result? I have little to no reason to bother with her unless I want to make the game harder than it needs to be. Especially when Ranulf is already forced in Ike's chapters. Stefan, Volke, and Renning all have the usual problems of joining late, too, as well as other problems (Volke is stuck with knives, and Renning's stats aren't that great for his level). On 11/4/2020 at 7:35 PM, mangasdeouf said: I don't glorify Laguz if it's what it seems. I just put things in the context of a tactical and strategical game. If they can do what other do with less investment, they're better. Volug having the same caps as reavers with better skill and base hit (except with Tarvos and Urvan because OP base accuracy while Ragnell and Alondite, legendary weapons of the heroes of light and shadow have 80 or 85 accuracy...but ranged weapons are pretty inacurate in general in this game except one type of axes for some reasons) and +2 spd ensuring he can double most if not every aura with white tide, with 9 move instead of 7, more skill capacity for almost the whole game and unlimited and self-upgrading weapon, means he doesn't take as much ressources as Reavers. CEXP isn't needed since he caps everything or nearly everything without more than 3 stats per level up, BEXP is abundant enough for his 25 level ups while it's not abundant enough for Nolan's level ups, or you can always Nolan a BEXP level just before he levels up naturally when he finally caps 2 stats after 25 lvel ups because his high base level means jack shit if his base stats are comparable to those of Meg, only with a slightly better distribution but worse practical use, since he's weighed down by the only 1 range axes he can use for the first 4 chapters of the game and his high skill doesn't make up for axes shitty hit rates before Tarvos/Urvan. Don't give me that BS, because you definitely overglorify laguz. Do you take me for an idiot? Or is there some other reason why every time I bring up some major weakness that laguz have, you try to dance around it? I don't see how they need "less investment" when they level up slowly, thus requiring more effort to improve. Sure their weapon improves... but it's at a pace that "snail's pace" would be too kind in describing (I have better ways to use my time than to go out of my way to have a laguz attack 150 times to fully upgrade their weapon). Also, breaking news: axes are more accurate in Radiant Dawn relative to the prior games. Ever seen a myrmidon face 60+% hit rates from axes? On 11/4/2020 at 7:35 PM, mangasdeouf said: 7 base speed effectively, Meg has 8, and she has more base def and the same growth with 6 levels more to get points when she still gains exp in p1. Meg isn't very good (mostly due to her move type and 5-6 movement combined), but if she isn't, then Nolan is just barely decent if you feed him all the exp to get something that barely outshines what he could do with an early promotion since he doesn't really improve before very long. I'd say the real problem is that you try to cut corners and look for shortcuts. I don't see an early promotion as helping Nolan, but rather hindering him. On 11/4/2020 at 7:35 PM, mangasdeouf said: Also if Volug doesn't reach his str cap, so doesn't Nolan. But Volug has much less save scumming needed to cap str than Nolan, since if you give the same favoritism that is commonly given to Nolan to Volug instead, he still does the job better. And Nolan still isn't ORKOing anything with a hand axe before very, very long, at which point Volug has been ORKOing everything but generals/tigers in melee since he's available and at the other side of the map at that, while your team of weaklings is still blocked by ennemies with better stats than them for most of the game and your other overlevelled units in the DB are fast caught up on by the ennemies, can't move around or have no availability, making them forcefully stay scrubs until p4 lets you give favoritism to whoever you want. The best DB overlevelled unit is Tauroneo, and after he comes back he's average or even below average since he can't double anymore except vs tigers he can't ORKO anyway (but who can double everything except Zihark, trained Edward and...still Volug, maybe trained Jill if she can ORKO before becoming unsalvageable). Last I checked, savescumming can be done with anyone, so it's not a legitimate argument. Also, once again, I'm pretty much forced to train up some of the other units lest the game become unwinnable (how would you feel if you had to start over from the beginning after getting over halfway through the game because you made the very foolish choice to neglect the Daeins and now you can't make it through 3-6?). On 11/4/2020 at 7:35 PM, mangasdeouf said: Efficient vs non efficient: having access to units that need no training to have t3 base stats but need micromanagement and that could be outclassed by t3 units if only these units had better stat caps then them, which isn't the case and just means the best base stats still win in final stats even if they don't reach their god mode caps because when t3 have the same stats as base decent Laguz (not even comparing them to good Laguz like Janaff and Ulki, I don't want to insult them), if these Laguz have levelled up 2 or 3x they're already better than the Beorcs who took 10 chapters just to reach their bases and doing all that was pointless because prepromotes will do that 2 chapters later with 0 investment anyway. The notion that heavily using units that need to transform first to not be liabilities is "efficient" is utterly laughable. Especially when the micromanagement involved is not even rewarding. I'll pass on unrewarding micromanagement and units that are barely better than most of the units I'd be using anyway, thank you very much. On 11/4/2020 at 7:35 PM, mangasdeouf said: TL;DR: Use who you want alongside Haar Ike and maybe Titania before she falls off because her def growth is garbage and after promotion she barely improves defensively at all. Laguz are not the easiest to use, but they're definitely the most effective when used right. If you can't use your tools correctly, it's not necessary the tools' fault, even if in this case we all agree to say that these tools could have been handled better and thus have been easier to use correctly, otherwise there wouldn't be any topic trying to point out bad things about them and how they could have been/become better in a future game. But doesn't Serenes Forest community usually say everything's too easy anyway? then why not challenge yourselves in playing with these tools instead of doing the same thing every other game over and over again? It's by playing with all of your toys that you learn which ones you like the most, not by following a restrained line of thought that everything has to be played in one way. FE still is a game, and each one has fun differently in a game, even if it's the same game. It's not just that laguz are hard to use - it;s also that they require too much effort and micromanagement for too little reward. Especially when factoring in the crippling weaknesses they have. Well, that, and RD is already hard enough as is without actively sabotaging myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mangasdeouf Posted November 6, 2020 Author Share Posted November 6, 2020 3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said: Don't give me that BS, because you definitely overglorify laguz. Do you take me for an idiot? Or is there some other reason why every time I bring up some major weakness that laguz have, you try to dance around it? I don't see how they need "less investment" when they level up slowly, thus requiring more effort to improve. Sure their weapon improves... but it's at a pace that "snail's pace" would be too kind in describing (I have better ways to use my time than to go out of my way to have a laguz attack 150 times to fully upgrade their weapon). Also, breaking news: axes are more accurate in Radiant Dawn relative to the prior games. Ever seen a myrmidon face 60+% hit rates from axes? Do you ever watch ennemy stats and weapon stats? The hand axe and iron axe have +10 and +5 accuracy compared with older games, the steel axe has the same accuracy as usual iron axe, past that (meaning from p2 onwards where the real game starts because in p1 you're effectivly using trainees), they have normal accuracy, and the Tarvos with 100 and Urvan with 110. Ennemy over the roof leadership stars out of nowhere and the insane base/growth in skill are the reasons why you face 60% hit rates from axers with swordies. IIRC base skill of fighters = 6, the ennemies you face are like level 5-18 in p1 with a 60% growth, which means the lowest skill displayed should be 8 on fighters, which makes them have 80+16=96 accuracy in ch1 with the iron axe, without counting luck/2 which would add 2-5 hit over the course of p1. Lances have +10 accuracy too, that's why soldiers have over 100 hit rates so early in the game. The only lances not benefitting from boosted accuracy before part 2 gives ennemies higher Mt weapons are javelins, actually keeping their post FE6 GBA hit rates. 1 range lances have 5 more accuracy than 1 range axes. That's why dodging is so hard without leadership stars + supports + terrain bonuses. Promoted units at base have around 16 skl, meaning you add 32 accuracy from skill to weapon hit and then you add their 10 or so luck/2, you face +37 hitrate ennemies before leadership stars. Swordmasters have 21 base skill, 42+ luck/2 base hitrate. Good luck dodging that without double earth or vigilance. Also, infinite uses free silver weapon with 90 Mt>20-25 uses weapon with over 15 Mt and accuracy in the 60s that costs in the 1400-2500 gold. Look at weapon prices they're really unattractive since DB can't hit for their lives with these weapons and GMs have no money for most of p3 even with Ilyana full of items to sell. The only ones with decent prices are iron poleaxes at 400, 12 damage, 65 hit, 16 Wt. Then steel poleaxes cost 700, 15 Mt, 60 hit, 20 Wt (Nolan won't be using that for very long), the silver poleaxe has 18 Mt, 60 accuracy and weighs 19 still, with a worth of 1800. Brave axe costs 2640 when it's available for sale, and killer axe 2880. That's one ruby worth for 30 uses. Brave lance is worth 2960, killer lance 4320, short spear 3000, steel greatlance 1120 (14/70/18), silver lance 2160 (13/80/12) and silver greatlance 2880 (17/50!/17). Tauroneo and Aran are fine with weapon Wt, Danced needs 1 str level up to cut the steel GL drawback, Nephenee loose 2 spd from the silver and 3 from the stl GL, Nolan sticks to steel/Tarvos/brave because he needs to reach like level 8-10 promoted to even be able to wield poles without loosing AS on top of his still unimpressive skill, lucky him to face tigers for most of p3 since his hit rate on cats and hawks would be outrageously mediocre without Tarvos. Jill is worse since she doesn't have Tarvos, neither does she have as much strength as the already weak Nolan, which puts her even lower in the efficient use of axes, she's better off sticking with lances before t3 or skill blessing. I don't rely on 70-ish hit rates just like you don't rely on 1% crit rates to not activate. Like I said they have their flaws that are largely countered by playing the juggernauts as my main units and letting Laguz in when they're in a good spot. I also spend part of my BEXP on them because for me it's more effective than wasting it on 4-5 stats per level up units. I don't let them be my main force in human form but if needed I abuse the gauge refill mechanics to use them quicker. And provoke still exists to manage ennemy AI. Many units are more player phase oriented than ennemy phase, Laguz are in the middle. They're not your best units all the time but they get the job done when I want it done. Now please let this topic sink because it's no more needed to revive it. You have your mind set anyway on not using them, why don't you just skip topics about Laguz? If you can't make use of them then don't but don't come here to say they're unusable when people effectively do Laguz runs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 (edited) 15 hours ago, mangasdeouf said: Do you ever watch ennemy stats and weapon stats? The hand axe and iron axe have +10 and +5 accuracy compared with older games, the steel axe has the same accuracy as usual iron axe, past that (meaning from p2 onwards where the real game starts because in p1 you're effectivly using trainees), they have normal accuracy, and the Tarvos with 100 and Urvan with 110. Ennemy over the roof leadership stars out of nowhere and the insane base/growth in skill are the reasons why you face 60% hit rates from axers with swordies. IIRC base skill of fighters = 6, the ennemies you face are like level 5-18 in p1 with a 60% growth, which means the lowest skill displayed should be 8 on fighters, which makes them have 80+16=96 accuracy in ch1 with the iron axe, without counting luck/2 which would add 2-5 hit over the course of p1. Of course I do. I probably do it much more than you. By the way, my comment about having seeing a myrmidon face 60%+ hit rates against axes was pretty much in the context of Edward, because he's the unlucky guy who is evasively challenged; of course, the fact that axes are more accurate than in prior games contributes to this. 15 hours ago, mangasdeouf said: Lances have +10 accuracy too, that's why soldiers have over 100 hit rates so early in the game. The only lances not benefitting from boosted accuracy before part 2 gives ennemies higher Mt weapons are javelins, actually keeping their post FE6 GBA hit rates. 1 range lances have 5 more accuracy than 1 range axes. That's why dodging is so hard without leadership stars + supports + terrain bonuses. Promoted units at base have around 16 skl, meaning you add 32 accuracy from skill to weapon hit and then you add their 10 or so luck/2, you face +37 hitrate ennemies before leadership stars. Swordmasters have 21 base skill, 42+ luck/2 base hitrate. Good luck dodging that without double earth or vigilance. Perhaps, but at the same time, even without those I generally didn't think it was as bad as you were implying. This isn't Shadow Dragon, where evading enemy attacks is generally a rare sight. 15 hours ago, mangasdeouf said: Also, infinite uses free silver weapon with 90 Mt>20-25 uses weapon with over 15 Mt and accuracy in the 60s that costs in the 1400-2500 gold. Look at weapon prices they're really unattractive since DB can't hit for their lives with these weapons and GMs have no money for most of p3 even with Ilyana full of items to sell. The only ones with decent prices are iron poleaxes at 400, 12 damage, 65 hit, 16 Wt. Then steel poleaxes cost 700, 15 Mt, 60 hit, 20 Wt (Nolan won't be using that for very long), the silver poleaxe has 18 Mt, 60 accuracy and weighs 19 still, with a worth of 1800. Brave axe costs 2640 when it's available for sale, and killer axe 2880. That's one ruby worth for 30 uses. Brave lance is worth 2960, killer lance 4320, short spear 3000, steel greatlance 1120 (14/70/18), silver lance 2160 (13/80/12) and silver greatlance 2880 (17/50!/17). Tauroneo and Aran are fine with weapon Wt, Danced needs 1 str level up to cut the steel GL drawback, Nephenee loose 2 spd from the silver and 3 from the stl GL, Nolan sticks to steel/Tarvos/brave because he needs to reach like level 8-10 promoted to even be able to wield poles without loosing AS on top of his still unimpressive skill, lucky him to face tigers for most of p3 since his hit rate on cats and hawks would be outrageously mediocre without Tarvos. Jill is worse since she doesn't have Tarvos, neither does she have as much strength as the already weak Nolan, which puts her even lower in the efficient use of axes, she's better off sticking with lances before t3 or skill blessing. I don't rely on 70-ish hit rates just like you don't rely on 1% crit rates to not activate. You're making hit out to be more of a problem than it actually is. If it was a 1 RN game, I would consider 70 worrisome, but thanks to this... https://serenesforest.net/general/true-hit/ Long story short, in this game, as well as some others, higher hit rates are more likely to hit and lower hit rates are more likely to miss than is displayed. Anyway, like I said, for a laguz to have their weapon be on par with a normal silver weapon, they need to attack 70 times. That's asking a lot, especially considering they won't always be transformed, and thus that's not something I can count on happening any time soon without slowing down to a crawl and/or massively favoring them at the expense of everyone else. Also, brave weapons are one-of-a-kind, and mostly gotten from conversations (the bow is the exception, as it's a hidden treasure in 3-6). What's more, I never really had money problems with the Mercenaries. Disarm is a thing, and with it, the opportunity to rob disarmed enemies blind. There's also the Silver Card, which halves prices in 3-2's base (you lose it afterwards, so sell it once you're done), as well as miscellaneous stuff I could sell (2 arms scrolls I might have found in part 2 being shipped over to sell via Haar, Brom, Nephenee, or Heather, some magic cards, a statue frag in 3-2, some gems, etc.). 15 hours ago, mangasdeouf said: Like I said they have their flaws that are largely countered by playing the juggernauts as my main units and letting Laguz in when they're in a good spot. I also spend part of my BEXP on them because for me it's more effective than wasting it on 4-5 stats per level up units. I don't let them be my main force in human form but if needed I abuse the gauge refill mechanics to use them quicker. And provoke still exists to manage ennemy AI. Many units are more player phase oriented than ennemy phase, Laguz are in the middle. They're not your best units all the time but they get the job done when I want it done. The problem is, by the time they're in "a good spot", I could rely on other units to get the job done. Units that don't need to transform and aren't locked to a weapon that's slow to upgrade. Also, while Provoke exists, I still think it's foolish to rely on it to keep the enemy away from the likes of untransformed laguz, because they can and will ignore it if a good enough target comes along; it doesn't help that laguz themselves have an innate Provoke on them due to them being powerless in human form (Shade is for beorc only, so that won't help them). 15 hours ago, mangasdeouf said: Now please let this topic sink because it's no more needed to revive it. You have your mind set anyway on not using them, why don't you just skip topics about Laguz? If you can't make use of them then don't but don't come here to say they're unusable when people effectively do Laguz runs. I never said they're unusable (the only ones I'd actually consider unusable are Vika and Lyre due to their circumstances (Vika only has 4 chapters before endgame, and in all but one of them she's overleveled, which means I don't want to use her much, especially since her one chapter after part 1 is... 4-4, which is one of the most aggravating chapters in the game. At that point, her stats just won't hold up. Lyre has poor bases and cat gauge to grapple with, and even when transformed, her offense is horrid (22 attack starting out), which means you have to go completely out of your way to try to get her a kill). I only said that most of them take too much effort and resources to raise, and despite all the investment needed, don't wind up good enough to justify the hoops I had to jump through to get them there. Edited November 7, 2020 by Shadow Mir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mangasdeouf Posted November 7, 2020 Author Share Posted November 7, 2020 I'm modding the game once more at the moment (been on it for 2 days already) and changing the caps so they're 28 for 7 move units, 26 for 8 move (thieves/rogues/whispers), 24 for cavalry, 22 for flyers and Laguz have their per class modified caps to fit each class' role better. I'm realizing how fit their base stats are to a game where ennemy stats don't exceed 20 most of the time like in the GBA games, and how unfit they are to a game with ennemies reaching >25 stats and bosses with stats between 30 and 40. Really Radiant Dawn Laguz could have been put into POR and worked fine but really need more base stats to fit their game (thinking of 75% stats in human halfshift and 100% in full form as an example, maybe speed should not be modified by transformation at all so that 18 speed reamins 18 speed at all times and not 9 speed or 36, which completely breaks game balance in half and shows the problem of the speed stat in Radiant Dawn). I also think Radiant Dawn especially could have used the Gaiden speed difference for doubling, which would be much easier to manage. Also in a game with 3 tiers and a massive difference in stats, I think ennemies should have set stats for each tier (like I did in this mod) because then you would know the exact thresholds you need to meet at all times and wouldn't be forced to watch each individual ennemy's stats because they change so much for each one due to growths, especially with growth rates in the 60-70s for t1 and SP classes...which also completely break any semblance of balance when DB barely has better bases than mooks, are low level and on top of that they have growth rates inferior to the ennemies who outscale them, what a shame. Definitely something to think about for a future game as complicated as Radiant Dawn with its numerous mechanics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanty Pete's 1st Mate Posted May 5, 2021 Share Posted May 5, 2021 Wow, I missed a lot of good fighting! Anyway: I think laguz are decently impressive when they show up in Path of Radiance - great bulk, 9 movement. Lethe can get going right away, and Mordecai can fight once she's reverted. Then in RD, you get Volug - even with just the Wildheart stats, he's a force to reckon with. So, good first impressions. Except... they're boring to use. They only get one attack - no ranged options, no high-crit attacks, braves, nothing. If a Tellius remake ever comes, I'd love to see Laguz get more attacking options - say, combat arts that exhaust the support gauge. Credit where it's due - the Herons offered a great spin on the old "Dancer" trope. The Hawks in RD had good stats and utility to their names. And the laguz royals were silly OP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted May 10, 2021 Share Posted May 10, 2021 On 5/5/2021 at 5:50 AM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: Wow, I missed a lot of good fighting! Anyway: I think laguz are decently impressive when they show up in Path of Radiance - great bulk, 9 movement. Lethe can get going right away, and Mordecai can fight once she's reverted. Then in RD, you get Volug - even with just the Wildheart stats, he's a force to reckon with. So, good first impressions. Except... they're boring to use. They only get one attack - no ranged options, no high-crit attacks, braves, nothing. If a Tellius remake ever comes, I'd love to see Laguz get more attacking options - say, combat arts that exhaust the support gauge. Credit where it's due - the Herons offered a great spin on the old "Dancer" trope. The Hawks in RD had good stats and utility to their names. And the laguz royals were silly OP. Their slower leveling up also detracts from the fun to play factor. Even if it makes sense in Radiant Dawn, due to any stat gains they get from a level up is, effectively, 2 points of gain due to the stats doubling. Still though that dopamine rush from actually getting a level up, be it fantastic or crappy, coming less frequently just makes them more boring as units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanty Pete's 1st Mate Posted May 10, 2021 Share Posted May 10, 2021 6 hours ago, Jotari said: Their slower leveling up also detracts from the fun to play factor. Even if it makes sense in Radiant Dawn, due to any stat gains they get from a level up is, effectively, 2 points of gain due to the stats doubling. Still though that dopamine rush from actually getting a level up, be it fantastic or crappy, coming less frequently just makes them more boring as units. IMO that's not even a good justification for lowering their EXP gain, because most laguz had rather poor growth rates in the stats that doubled (i.e. all but HP and Luck). So it's like a double-whammy of suck. If anything, I think I'd make the level cap 30 (with Satori Signs usable from level 20 onward), reduce base levels across the board (while keeping base stats roughly the same), don't change the EXP formula too much, and bump up the growth rates on most non-royals. So the laguz level-ups will still be rarer than their beorc counterparts, but with higher growths and the "doubling when transformed" effect, they'll feel like a bigger deal (rather than, typically, a disappointment). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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