Why did Ashnard want Elincia alive?

[Alastor15243]

So I just checked out part of my FE9 playlog earlier, and I was reminded of a question I had that, upon finishing the duology... I still can't think of an answer for.

When Daein forces went after Elincia towards the beginning of FE9... why were they under orders to bring Elincia back alive? What did Ashnard want her alive for? I'm racking my brain, but I just can't think of any revelations after that part in the story that would explain this behavior. Why wasn't Elincia simply ordered dead?

[vanguard333]

Most invading conquerors usually kept alive someone from the pre-existing aristocracy to act as a puppet ruler and legitimize the occupation. The Roman Empire did it all the time: go into place, kill the armies, kill king if he opposes us and install someone the public recognizes that will do as we say. The story never outright says that this is the reason, but it heavily implies that this is the case. 

[Alastor15243]

On 10/14/2020 at 7:40 PM, vanguard333 said:

Most invading conquerors usually kept alive someone from the pre-existing aristocracy to act as a puppet ruler and legitimize the occupation. The Roman Empire did it all the time: go into place, kill the armies, kill king if he opposes us and install someone the public recognizes that will do as we say. The story never outright says that this is the reason, but it heavily implies that this is the case. 

Not only do we have to assume without being told that that's the reason, but we'd also have to assume that that was a lie the soldiers were told to keep up appearances of the invasion actually mattering, because Ashnard makes it blatantly clear later that he doesn't care.

Edited March 31, 2021 by Alastor15243

[vanguard333]

2 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Not only do we have to assume without being told that that's the reason, but we'd also have to assume that that was a lie the soldiers were told to keep up appearances of the invasion actually mattering, because Ashnard makes it blatantly clear later that he doesn't care.

The invasion does matter though as a stepping stone for invading Gallia, and having a member of the royal family alive and submitting to you helps prevent things like rebellions and uprisings; the very things that happen in the game and lead to Ashnard's defeat. 

[Ottservia]

32 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Most invading conquerors usually kept alive someone from the pre-existing aristocracy to act as a puppet ruler and legitimize the occupation. The Roman Empire did it all the time: go into place, kill the armies, kill king if he opposes us and install someone the public recognizes that will do as we say. The story never outright says that this is the reason, but it heavily implies that this is the case. 

Was it really? I just played the game recently and I didn’t pick up on that implication at all. So either you’re applying things to the game that isn’t actually there or shit is just flying over my head. 

[vanguard333]

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

Was it really? I just played the game recently and I didn’t pick up on that implication at all. So either you’re applying things to the game that isn’t actually there or shit is just flying over my head. 

I realize in retrospect that "heavily implied" was a poor choice of words. Looking back on the script, I guess I just inferred that on my first time playing through the game; that he'd want her alive to use to make the transition of power easier, especially since his real goal is just to use Crimea as a stepping stone for invading Gallia. 

Anyway; I think that that's probably the reason he wants her alive: so that the occupation of Crimea goes as smoothly as possible so he can move on to invading Gallia as soon as possible. 

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

I realize in retrospect that "heavily implied" was a poor choice of words. Looking back on the script, I guess I just inferred that on my first time playing through the game; that he'd want her alive to use to make the transition of power easier, especially since his real goal is just to use Crimea as a stepping stone for invading Gallia. 

Anyway; I think that that's probably the reason he wants her alive: so that the occupation of Crimea goes as smoothly as possible so he can move on to invading Gallia as soon as possible. 

He has no reason to keep Elincia alive for that purpose at all. He already had the public heir to the kingdom captured at that time anyway, that being Renning. Who rather than turning into a political scapegoat he turned into a slobbering madman. Though perhaps Renning was just too defiant to be used as a puppet leader. It's not like Elincia would work much better though with her entire existence being a secret.

My guess? Honestly given Ashnard's personality it might just have been to gloat.

Edited October 15, 2020 by Jotari

[Icelerate]

5 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

So I just checked out part of my FE9 playlog earlier, and I was reminded of a question I had that, upon finishing the duology... I still can't think of an answer for.

When Daein forces went after Elincia towards the beginning of FE9... why were they under orders to bring Elincia back alive? What did Ashnard want her alive for? I'm racking my brain, but I just can't think of any revelations after that part in the story that would explain this behavior. Why wasn't Elincia simply ordered dead?

Probably the same reason why Jarod wanted Micaiah alive. Capturing an enemy to execute them publicly would be a more effective way of demoralizing the enemy than killing them in action. 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

That's a good question. Whatever the answer is, it didn't stop Ashnard from strolling over and executing Elincia because I left her in range. Cool battle quotes though.

[whase]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

It's not like Elincia would work much better though with her entire existence being a secret.

This, Elincia's existance is a secret, not sure it's even explained how Ashnard came to know of her. Did the Crimean and Daein royal families have close enough contact for this to be known? Or was it her being given a royal knight platoon to escape that gave away her identity? 

I can think of reasons why Ashnard could want Elincia alive, but all would be just speculation. I don't believe the writers found it important enough to include a reason, or maybe one was given in the original Japanese but got translated out?

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, whase said:

This, Elincia's existance is a secret, not sure it's even explained how Ashnard came to know of her. Did the Crimean and Daein royal families have close enough contact for this to be known? Or was it her being given a royal knight platoon to escape that gave away her identity? 

I can think of reasons why Ashnard could want Elincia alive, but all would be just speculation. I don't believe the writers found it important enough to include a reason, or maybe one was given in the original Japanese but got translated out?

It's all a bit strange given that it'd make no difference at all if the soldiers were under orders to kill her. As far as I recall she gets to the mercs before ever being captured at all, right?

[whase]

36 minutes ago, Jotari said:

It's all a bit strange given that it'd make no difference at all if the soldiers were under orders to kill her. As far as I recall she gets to the mercs before ever being captured at all, right?

They did get attacked before Elincia was found by the mercenaries. From the platoon sent with her for protection only Geoffrey was able to escape and Kieran got captured, pretty sure the rest died. They hid Elincia away in some shrubbery or something where Ike found her. (Been a while since I read this though, let me know if I forgot something.)

[Jotari]

39 minutes ago, whase said:

They did get attacked before Elincia was found by the mercenaries. From the platoon sent with her for protection only Geoffrey was able to escape and Kieran got captured, pretty sure the rest died. They hid Elincia away in some shrubbery or something where Ike found her. (Been a while since I read this though, let me know if I forgot something.)

Yeah so the soldiers never actually get their hands on Elincia personally. So if the line was changed from "We were ordered to capture her alive" to "We were ordered to take her alive or dead" it really wouldn't have changed anything at all.

[vanguard333]

5 hours ago, whase said:

This, Elincia's existance is a secret, not sure it's even explained how Ashnard came to know of her. Did the Crimean and Daein royal families have close enough contact for this to be known? Or was it her being given a royal knight platoon to escape that gave away her identity? 

I can think of reasons why Ashnard could want Elincia alive, but all would be just speculation. I don't believe the writers found it important enough to include a reason, or maybe one was given in the original Japanese but got translated out?

Elincia explains how Ashnard knows about her:

Ike:
“Does King Daein know of your existence?”

Elincia:
“Yes. I was told the royals of each nation were informed of my identity in the event of dire circumstances…”

Greil:
“If that’s the case, they must be searching frantically for you.”

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

He has no reason to keep Elincia alive for that purpose at all. He already had the public heir to the kingdom captured at that time anyway, that being Renning. Who rather than turning into a political scapegoat he turned into a slobbering madman. Though perhaps Renning was just too defiant to be used as a puppet leader. It's not like Elincia would work much better though with her entire existence being a secret.

Didn't he do that because of how strong Renning was? That way he could turn Renning into a living weapon and Rider of Daein. 

[whase]

12 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Elincia explains how Ashnard knows about her:

Ah thank you, that explains that part.

Also makes using her as a puppet a more valid strategy, since Begnion could confirm her lineage as well.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Elincia explains how Ashnard knows about her:

Ike:
“Does King Daein know of your existence?”

Elincia:
“Yes. I was told the royals of each nation were informed of my identity in the event of dire circumstances…”

Greil:
“If that’s the case, they must be searching frantically for you.”

Didn't he do that because of how strong Renning was? That way he could turn Renning into a living weapon and Rider of Daein. 

Well yeah that's what he ended up doing with Renning, but if he wanted a puppet leader then Renning would have been a far better choice than Elincia. Given he was the actual heir to Crimea.

[vanguard333]

9 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

That's a good question. Whatever the answer is, it didn't stop Ashnard from strolling over and executing Elincia because I left her in range. Cool battle quotes though.

At that point, any plans he originally had for Elincia were probably out the window; with everyone in Tellius except for Goldoa against him and at his doorstep and with no one to sing the Galdr of Release, his plans at that point had almost fallen apart. 

 

38 minutes ago, whase said:

Ah thank you, that explains that part.

Also makes using her as a puppet a more valid strategy, since Begnion could confirm her lineage as well.

You're welcome. 

Indeed. 

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well yeah that's what he ended up doing with Renning, but if he wanted a puppet leader then Renning would have been a far better choice than Elincia. Given he was the actual heir to Crimea.

I suppose, but who would be easier to control: a princess who was never supposed to be heir, or someone who saw your army overwhelming the capital and still chose to fight? Plus there's also the fact that Ashnard's twisted version of social darwinism guided most of his decisions, and he saw Renning's strength and chose to use it for himself. 

[Jotari]

5 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

At that point, any plans he originally had for Elincia were probably out the window; with everyone in Tellius except for Goldoa against him and at his doorstep and with no one to sing the Galdr of Release, his plans at that point had almost fallen apart. 

 

You're welcome. 

Indeed. 

I suppose, but who would be easier to control: a princess who was never supposed to be heir, or someone who saw your army overwhelming the capital and still chose to fight? Plus there's also the fact that Ashnard's twisted version of social darwinism guided most of his decisions, and he saw Renning's strength and chose to use it for himself. 

Ashnard's twisted version of social darwinism also makes it unlikely he'd accept the existence of something like a puppet ruler.

[Endaii]

On 10/15/2020 at 3:03 AM, whase said:

This, Elincia's existance is a secret, not sure it's even explained how Ashnard came to know of her. Did the Crimean and Daein royal families have close enough contact for this to be known? Or was it her being given a royal knight platoon to escape that gave away her identity? 

I can think of reasons why Ashnard could want Elincia alive, but all would be just speculation. I don't believe the writers found it important enough to include a reason, or maybe one was given in the original Japanese but got translated out?

Nah, It's literally STATED in the GAME that ALL the Royals in each country were informed of Elincia's existence.

[vanguard333]

20 hours ago, Endaii said:

Nah, It's literally STATED in the GAME that ALL the Royals in each country were informed of Elincia's existence.

I already pointed this out to whase and he understood. You didn't need to point this out.

Also, was this topic still on page 1 of the forum when you replied to it?

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

I already pointed this out to whase and he understood. You didn't need to point this out.

Also, was this topic still on page 1 of the forum when you replied to it?

Considering we have threads from the first page who's most recent posts come from Septmeber, I'm guessing it was. So technically not a necro, though I doubt there's too much more life in this conversation. The game certainly doesn't provide any hints to the answer. So it's just individual speculation from there.

Edited March 31, 2021 by Jotari

[vanguard333]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Considering we have threads from the first page who's most recent posts come from December, I'm guessing it was. So technically not a necro, though I doubt there's too much more life in this conversation. The game certainly doesn't provide any hints to the answer. So it's just individual speculation from there.

Okay. I just wanted to make sure that it wasn't a necro.

Yeah; I'll agree about the game not really saying why. 

[Dark Holy Elf]

My take on it is that orders to capture Elincia alive just make more sense, regardless of Ashnard's intentions. If captured alive, she has a number of potential uses to legitimize his conquest (either in the eyes of Crimea itself or Begnion). Or yeah, he might just want to gloat. And he can always kill her later if her death suits him. Having her killed immediately is just cutting down on his options.