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A general poll of Jagens

When do Jagens start to become bad  

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  1. 1. So this thought just came to me and I just thought when do Jagens become bad



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So everyone knows what Jagens are right. They are pre-promotes(usually Paladins) who have great bases but horrible growths and low exp gains and not Oifeys who have the good base stats of Jagens but have good or god-tier growths making them good in the long term not short so this is a question,when do you think Jagens become not good Early, Mid or Late game just a questions leave your thought down below

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33 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

Jagens make games broing, hence they are bad from ch1

Agreed but I think he means gameplay wise

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Depends on the Jagen. Titania and FE7 Marcus can go to endgame and be fine.

Other Jagens won't last as long or fall off harder, depending on the unit (Sothe, for example).

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Some point between "Mid-game" (e.g. FE6!Marcus, FE12!Arran) and "never" (e.g. Seth, Titania).

1 hour ago, Shrimperor said:

Jagens make games broing, hence they are bad from ch1

I recently played through PoR's earlygame without using Titania (well, almost. She did collect villages and helped with some rescue/drops). I've also seen people play FE6's first chapter on HM without using Marcus. I don't think this statement would stand up to scrutiny.

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Jagens generally fall off to early-midgame. FE6 Marcus and FE12 Arran, for example. Sigurd also falls off really hard midway through chapter 5. Radiant Dawn is weird, but Sothe falls off in the midgame as well.

I think FE11 Jagen tends to fall off while still in the earlygame on the higher difficulties, (At least for me, I generally benched him at about ch. 7 on H4,) but as far as I know, he's the only one who is like this. I sort of consider Wendell a Jagen in FE11, because he suits the archetype more than Jagen himself does, (Since his base stats are significantly higher than everyone else's) and he follows the trend of falling off in the midgame. Then again, I'm using Vyland and Roshea rather than Wolf and Sedgar, so maybe I'm not the best to ask regarding good units in FE11.

In terms of perennially good Jagens, it frequently has to do more with the game than them. Marcus in FE7 only really starts to fall off at about Battle Before Dawn or Cog of Destiny, because that's where enemy quality sharply increases compared to the rest of the game, where enemies have around 9 AS. I am pretty sure that at base level, he will still fairly reliably double.

Edited by Benice

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It varies. Judging from the Jagens I know:

  • FE3B1 Jagen- Pretty early, since he's almost obsoleted at the start by Cain and Abel.
  • FE3B2 Arran- Maybe he gets you the Ladyblade in Chapter 2, and crosses the mountains with Marth in Chapter 1, thats it. For he is objectively benched in favor of Sirius come Chapter 4.
  • FE4 Gen 1- Quan? He leaves after 2/3rds of Gen 1, nonexistence is a falling off as hard as it gets. Sigurd is godly from from start to end if he counts.
  • FE4 Gen 2- Oifey, and probably a well-trained in Gen 1 Finn. These two depend on the quality of your breeding of the 2nd Gen. They could destined to be inferior from the very start, or they could in the case of an all-subs/bad pairings run be very good until the end. Both have horses, both have Pursuit, so they've got the fundamental goods, and Oifey can use swords while Finn can readily take the Brave Lance if you don't mind denying it to your Pegasus Knight. They only get bad in Chapter 10 and Final because that very rare stat called Resistance becomes almost essential for unit viability there.
  • FE5 Eyvel and Dagdar- The former goes nonexistent after Chapter 3. The latter however I've been told fluctuates in FE5 fan arguments regarding their usability, FE5 has low stats so that helps Dagdar, his good Con makes him a great Capturebot too. Judging from my one and only playthrough of FE5, he does decline later, stats aren't entirely meaningless, and becomes ORKOable by Loptian Mages due to Charge/Accost letting them double him, but I did use him all the way to like Chapter 23.
  • FE6 Marcus and Zelot- Whilst more intensive players will point out the subtle differences between the two, they're nearly the same for most. I only played FE6 once and on Normal, but I could see from that the point that people have made about these two. They can last you through the Western Isles, but when you get Perceval in Chapter 13/15, you put the older horsemen out to pasture. This is probably the best instance of a Jagen who fulfills the idea of what a Jagen should be.
  • FE7 Marcus- This game consists chiefly of unpromoted units, the first fight without any is the final battle (or optional penultimate battle on HHM). Marcus greatly benefits from this. Where does he meet a relative decline? Probably around Chapter 21 -Ninian's joining fight- because by this point your units should be hitting 20 and thus promoting as most players would. That said, after this very chapter, Isadora joins with bases that are worse than Marcus's barring Spd thats irrelevant outside of Sword use because FemaleCon.🤣 If Isadora is supposed to be viable, then that says how good Marcus is.
  • FE8 Seth- If Marcus vs. Isadora is sad, then Seth vs. Syrene is a tragicomedy, the last unit to join in the entire game has worse bases than its Jagen! Furthermore, while every prior Jagen usually had lower total growths than their unpromoted competition, Seth has more total growths than any of the three Renais Cavs. It doesn't stop them from catching up or slightly surpassing him, but it's no guarantee like it used to be back with Jagen and Arran. Add in poor enemy quality that only spikes in a couple post-reunion battles, and Seth can be the powerful star of the show to the very end.
  • FE9 Titania- Like Seth, she has more total growths than her unpromoted competition. In her case however, she'll still fall behind them in like 3-4 Str and Def eventually because of her bases. Enemy quality in PoR, while low, is still outside of say Last Hope in FE8, a little better. You practically have to use her in up and including to Chapter 8 due to PoR's very unit-restricted earlygame, but I'd say she's not as dominant overall as Seth.
  • FE10 Sothe- Part 1 is his realm, here, he is essential because the Dawn Brigade starts weak, though Volug and Zihark provide you with other strong units. Sothe can ORKO or 2RKO most or all non-Armor enemies and do a good job of dodgetanking. Part 3 DB sees Sothe remain useful because having anyone who can live through combat is useful, given the DB's lack of EXP in Part 1 limits how many members you could train up to survive Part 3. Part 4, the promotion isn't enough, Sothe has been obsoleted by Naesala and whichever tier 3 units from Ike's team that you've put with the Dawn Army, or maybe even a DB 3rd tier. And his Part 4 Final performance is abyssal, existing to one chest, and then leaving you to wish you could've fielded Volke, a Trueblade, or just about anyone else instead of Sothe.
  • FE11 Jagen- Used "conventionally", Jagen falls off almost from the start yet again, barring now-significant Silver Lance exclusivity. Using reclass and forged weapons? Ridersbane on a Wyvern is very good. Maybe there's another niche too. I'm not entirely sure how even with those things Jagen fares however.
  • FE12 Arran- Still probably bad. Reclass might've helped, but Sirius still exists, and Kris, Catria, and Palla can ride over him as Cavs too.
  • FE13 Frederick- He does decline a bit by the time everyone is promoting at 20, but as leveling is infinite in FE13, and his growths are plenty extant, it doesn't matter. Frederick can be as good as anyone else. Excellent on Hard or Normal, heavily advisable on Lunatic for the first few chapters, though some would rather funnel much or all of his combat into rolling the Robin snowball ASAP.
  • FE14 Gunter, Reina, Early Felikob-
    • Gunter isn't great prior to the Branch of Fate, only usable for the two chapters he shows up. Gunter on Rev is horrendous and unusable from the start barring as a wrinkly Corrin backpack. To make them more than this on Rev or their marginally better CQ performance, reclassing to accrue a litany of skills for a complex setup is neccessary. 
    • Reina is more what a Jagen usable to the end of the game should look like, she's always fragile, always a little shaky on the accuracy, but she can just about secure the Str to ORKOs on a lot of thing, and will always have the Spd to do it.
    • Jakob and Felicia are penalized for not having stats that are really reflective of starting promoted, when others suddenly get a stat bump from promoting, they won't. Jakob starts the better of the two, since he can deal more damage than Felicia as a Butler until and if the Flame Shuriken shows up, and he can do better as a Paladin than Felicia as a Strategist. But his growths will probably bench him before Felicia, if either is destined to go that way at all. Both can use their early promoted skills access to their benefit, but this takes some time, they must still reach level 15 for the 15 skills, and partly dependent on their lovers and friendships.
  • TRS Garo- Was he supposed to be a Jagen? Dude is eh from the start. Lee and Raffin on the other hand are fairly balanced Jagens, the latter perhaps could be underpowered though if you were playing this game without psychic powers as you should and didn't foresee Runan at the first split is his destiny.

Now, when should Jagens fall off? Easy, past the middle of the midgame, the exact halfway point. Buuuut, FE attaches faces to everyone, and because bond with these faces, everyone should be perfectly usable to the very end, thats the modern mindset more or less.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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9 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Now, when should Jagens fall off? Easy, past the middle of the midgame, the exact halfway point. Buuuut, FE attaches faces to everyone, and because bond with these faces, everyone should be perfectly usable to the very end, thats the modern mindset more or less.

Which kinda sucks, I like the design concept of having units designed to excel for specific periods.

Generally Jagen's fall off in the mid game to my understanding (distinguishing them from Oifeys) but I'd actually argue FE6 Marcus starts to fall off in the early game. I don't think think it's "mid game" until the Western Isles and by that point Lance or Alan will have surpassed Marcus and Zelot / Jerrot / Zealot will also be better than him.

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Are people still trying to use more than just "Jagen" for the archetype? Please stop or eventually the only Jagen will be Jagen himself. (actually, iirc, under the strict definition people sometimes use the original FE1 Jagen wouldn't even be a Jagen)

Anyway, I largely agree with @Interdimensional Observer's list, though not sure I'd consider Zelot, Reina, or Jakob/Felicia to be Jagens.

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