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Blue Lions or Golden Deer for first maddening run


Barren
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I'm going to attempt Maddening at some point soon. It has been a couple of weeks since I've played all 4 routes. On normal mode mainly because I wanted to experiment around with units and their potential in some classes. Like I experimented with Ferdinand as a Swordmaster with Sword Avoid, Marianne as a Falcon Knight and Ingrid as a Valkyrie. I'm wondering if either Blue Lions or Golden Deer would be the better route to pick for maddening. If I were to aim for the golden sheen title screen for completing one NG play through (no NG+), I'm wondering which of the two you guys recommend?

I'm planning to go with female Byleth because having access to a flying class at level 10 seems to me more valuable than getting a brawling class at level 10 as male Byleth. I could always go male Byleth if you guys think that Quick Riposte is better than having Alert Stance+ and access to Falcon Knight.

 

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If you want the easiest between the two, I would go with Verdant Wind because Claude arrives in part 2 in a flying class, whereas chapter 13 your Dimitri is stuck on foot, the final chapter is the easiest out of all of them (imo), and your main lord (IE your best unit) doesn’t have a dead period of 4 months where you can’t train them.

7 minutes ago, Barren said:

On normal mode mainly because I wanted to experiment around with units and their potential in some classes. 

I’m assuming you mean casual mode.

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4 minutes ago, Sooks1016 said:

I’m assuming you mean casual mode.

Yea because I wanted to get my feet wet for maps at least and enemy lay out. I know obviously that maddening is going to make approaching enemies more difficult I'm willing to try

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As said above Golden Deer is definitely the easier option  of the two, Claude joins as a flyer which makes Hunting by Daybreak much more manageable, him also having access to his heroes relic right at the start of part 2 is another advantage since Dimitri doesn't get his till a couple chapters in to part 2.  

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About 2/3 of the way through VW Maddening. It's rough; but have heard from other folks it's the easiest of Maddenings.

Snipers with Hunters Volley will be a genuine lifesaver, so I'd invest in archers - being able to x2 damage with no damage in return .. yeah that's the only way I've made it this far.

 

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8 hours ago, TeeGeeThree said:

As said above Golden Deer is definitely the easier option  of the two, Claude joins as a flyer which makes Hunting by Daybreak much more manageable, him also having access to his heroes relic right at the start of part 2 is another advantage since Dimitri doesn't get his till a couple chapters in to part 2.  

The chapter 13 map is the one fight I am legit worried about myself. I have heard horror stories about how people got themselves soft locked to the point where no matter what they so they can’t win. So I do want to carefully plan for this.

I’m considering tactics like dismounting with Claude so he can take advantage of the bushes for the extra avoid in case he doesn’t have alert stance yet. I’m considering whether to bring a couple of units with swordbreaker like Lorenz or or Leonie since they are naturally good with lances. And maybe Dancer Marianne or Hilda since extra turns is super good.

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52 minutes ago, Barren said:

The chapter 13 map is the one fight I am legit worried about myself. I have heard horror stories about how people got themselves soft locked to the point where no matter what they so they can’t win. So I do want to carefully plan for this.

I’m considering tactics like dismounting with Claude so he can take advantage of the bushes for the extra avoid in case he doesn’t have alert stance yet. I’m considering whether to bring a couple of units with swordbreaker like Lorenz or or Leonie since they are naturally good with lances. And maybe Dancer Marianne or Hilda since extra turns is super good.

There's several ways to tackle it honestly, but I think the most important thing to do is keep a save file from the last month before the timeskip at hand so you can always go back and change a few things just in case.

Also, if you really find yourself struggling with the map or just don't want to play it here's a video about how to clear it without using too many specif resources by Mekkah (VW clear starts 14 minutes in):

Spoiler

 

 

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I remembering watching that video a couple of times. I'll certainly use this as a reference in case I can't do it on my own. Thanks @Bartozio

 

And yes, I'm definitely going to make separate files. One for the week before the chapter 12 fight, one for the fight itself and another one for the chapter 13 fight

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Just want to mention this since I recently beat AM maddening NG: for Ch13, if you save the giant shell from Remire Village, and a silver shield, put them on Ashe, and give them to Gilbert, he can tank every enemy in his starting area with 0 damage, except for the one sniper nearby. Make Ashe a wyvern with brave axe w/ death blow and reasonable battalion can safely kill that sniper after Gilbert pulled it. On the other side, making Annette dark flyer and Mercie a Valkyrie can safely kill the grappler (Annette has wind spells, and Mercie will have uncanny blow) nearby and quickly go to Dimitri's area.

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14 minutes ago, RaIsMyPet said:

Just want to mention this since I recently beat AM maddening NG: for Ch13, if you save the giant shell from Remire Village, and a silver shield, put them on Ashe, and give them to Gilbert, he can tank every enemy in his starting area with 0 damage, except for the one sniper nearby. Make Ashe a wyvern with brave axe w/ death blow and reasonable battalion can safely kill that sniper after Gilbert pulled it. On the other side, making Annette dark flyer and Mercie a Valkyrie can safely kill the grappler (Annette has wind spells, and Mercie will have uncanny blow) nearby and quickly go to Dimitri's area.

That's a good idea actually. I have considered Dark Flier Annette but not Valkyrie Mercedes for Blue Lions. And I was already considering stat boosters to use on my maddening run especially if I want them to improve in certain areas. But giving Gilbert that much more defense sounds really solid. 

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Verdant Wind has an easier Chapter 13, no question, but I'd counter that the Blue Lions have an easier earlygame. Felix has a crazy damage output, Dedue is a solid physical tank, Dimitri just stronk in general, Annette offers Rally Strength from day one, and Mercedes may be the best healer in the game. Blue Lions was my first Maddening playthrough (with NG+, admittedly), and it was tough, but doable. 

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30 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Verdant Wind has an easier Chapter 13, no question, but I'd counter that the Blue Lions have an easier earlygame. Felix has a crazy damage output, Dedue is a solid physical tank, Dimitri just stronk in general, Annette offers Rally Strength from day one, and Mercedes may be the best healer in the game. Blue Lions was my first Maddening playthrough (with NG+, admittedly), and it was tough, but doable. 

I'm just mostly afraid of chapter 13 mostly more than anything else. And I also hope no one shames me for using stat boosters including DLC because for me they should be able to help me. But I will also have to make note that when I do Blue Lions Dimitri's BV + BW set is not going to work on chapter 13 since he comes in as a High Lord and a fully replenished battalion. But swordbreaker should be helpful for the map. I also might bring in grounder just for the accuracy boost. Forged Training Swords and Training Lances might be necessary now that I think about it

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59 minutes ago, Barren said:

That's a good idea actually. I have considered Dark Flier Annette but not Valkyrie Mercedes for Blue Lions. And I was already considering stat boosters to use on my maddening run especially if I want them to improve in certain areas. But giving Gilbert that much more defense sounds really solid. 

Yeah I actually only made Mercie Valkyrie to pass Ch13, and eventually replaced her with Linhardt (bishop) and Marianne (trickster) lol. With this setup (and Wyvern F!Byleth), Dimitri didn't even put in any work.

Edit: I forgot to mention Gilbert has to be in the bush for another +1Def to tank the mercenary (iirc). Anyway it's just 1 Def wiggle room.

Edited by RaIsMyPet
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Still any defense added is appreciated

 

Also another question regarding to recruiting the Ashen Wolves. I'm wondering if I should wait to recruit them by at least chapter 3 since for example Constance and Hapi start with faith rank D between chapters 3 - 5, while Balthus starts with Bow rank D and Yuri would be close to authority Rank C by then. Or is it okay to recruit them by chapter 2? I once saw a twitter clip of Balthus taking 0 damage when under half health on maddening during the chapter 2 fight.

Edited by Barren
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3 hours ago, Barren said:

Still any defense added is appreciated

 

Also another question regarding to recruiting the Ashen Wolves. I'm wondering if I should wait to recruit them by at least chapter 3 since for example Constance and Hapi start with faith rank D between chapters 3 - 5, while Balthus starts with Bow rank D and Yuri would be close to authority Rank C by then. Or is it okay to recruit them by chapter 2? I once saw a twitter clip of Balthus taking 0 damage when under half health on maddening during the chapter 2 fight.

I don't think Maddening really need that level of detail. Those are "ideal" recruitment time, but the most important part early game is really just paying enough attention to unit placements when turtling. None of Ashen Wolves really have some (almost) game changing thing for early game anyway, such as Felix's crest+gauntlets, Dedue's personal, Dimitri's STR+tempest lance, Leonie/Petra's speed+MiniBow, certain rally, vengeance, etc.

Maybe B could tank with his personal when injured, but I imagine that's not for enemy axes.

Edited by RaIsMyPet
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I've done AM as my first NG Maddening, and I'm into Ch19 on Maddening VW NG+. 

It's likely NG+, and being more used to Maddening, but I think VW's early game felt quite a bit easier, even the first mock battle. Early access to ranged units is pretty great. A lot of their in house students quite naturally promote to ranged or high movement units later on. 

For AM I think, if you're using most of your in-house students, Ch13 will be fine on NG. Just as people say, make a save file on Ch12, and leave some good equipment/accessories to access in the convoy. I did it with Assassin Byleth and Dimitri, so both two foot locked, and felt it was ok. I had Wyvern Ashe (with Bows), Valkyrie Annette, and Bishop Mercie. 

For Ashen Wolves, I think recruit the ladies earlier, so you can get them started on Faith asap. Both of them have pretty good Faith Skills (Warp for Hapi, and Rescue for Constance).
And yeah, get Balthus while has still has that Bow D rank if you're after Hit+20. I forgot to, and his bow bane is kinda annoying lol. I don't think it matters too much for Yuri. I've used him on both Maddening runs, and he's been consistently good. Balthus has some great supports with Hilda and Claude. 

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3 hours ago, RaIsMyPet said:

I don't think Maddening really need that level of detail. Those are "ideal" recruitment time, but the most important part early game is really just paying enough attention to unit placements when turtling. None of Ashen Wolves really have some (almost) game changing thing for early game anyway, such as Felix's crest+gauntlets, Dedue's personal, Dimitri's STR+tempest lance, Leonie/Petra's speed+MiniBow, certain rally, vengeance, etc.

Maybe B could tank with his personal when injured, but I imagine that's not for enemy axes.

Basically this. Yuri afaik doesn’t get anything from getting recruited in chapter 3 so he should always be recruited ASAP. For the girls it’s a matter of personal preference if you want more faith early or not
.

Balthus is the main annoying one because he basically is Dedue 2.0 just with a more restrictive personal (but hey, more strength), which is super nice for chapter 2- but then you don’t get the base D bows from a chapter 3 recruit. He potentially could tank the axes in that chapter (with the exception of the battalion one and Kostas), though he’d need at least a defense level up from the auxiliary battle, an iron shield and the church of seiros battalion at level 3(admittedly I’m not sure how possible the last one is). So it’s a matter of if you want that or a boost in bows early on, and both have their merits.

If you go BL I’d recommend waiting until chapter 3 because Dedue can just replace Balthus at that niche. If not, then up to you, if you think having him around in chapter 2 would help you out a ton.

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13 hours ago, Anathaco said:

Basically this. Yuri afaik doesn’t get anything from getting recruited in chapter 3 so he should always be recruited ASAP. For the girls it’s a matter of personal preference if you want more faith early or not
.

Balthus is the main annoying one because he basically is Dedue 2.0 just with a more restrictive personal (but hey, more strength), which is super nice for chapter 2- but then you don’t get the base D bows from a chapter 3 recruit. He potentially could tank the axes in that chapter (with the exception of the battalion one and Kostas), though he’d need at least a defense level up from the auxiliary battle, an iron shield and the church of seiros battalion at level 3(admittedly I’m not sure how possible the last one is). So it’s a matter of if you want that or a boost in bows early on, and both have their merits.

If you go BL I’d recommend waiting until chapter 3 because Dedue can just replace Balthus at that niche. If not, then up to you, if you think having him around in chapter 2 would help you out a ton.

That was the one thing that has me scratching my head for this one. If Balthus has a bow rank of D in chapter 2 I would pick him over Dedue in a heartbeat because of his personal ability while I get it that it's only situational would be useful here. I've been also deliberating on recruiting Anna for her paralogue. Yes she is useless on maddening and she's a waste of a spot. But I was considering grabbing her by chapter 11 and easily promoting her as an assassin. She would be level 21 so the certification would be nice and she can at least lure out the warriors that are in her paralogue battle. She would carry axe breaker and I can always give her a stride battalion to use so she can at least A provide me a useful first turn and B not die in one round (hopefully). But yea, I'll get Yuri by chapter 2 since he also happens or have a faith rank in D so extra heals are always nice

Edited by Barren
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  • 4 weeks later...

If I can provide a quick update to my run so far. I got Yuri at chapter 2. Balthus, Constance, and Hapi by chapter 3. Dorothea, Bernadetta, Sylvain and Catherine by chapter 5. Ingrid, Ashe and Felix by chapter 6. And finally Linhardt and Petra by chapter 7. I'm at the weekend before the Gronder Field battle. Thankfully no deaths so far on my classic run. I've also managed to beat the Death Knight thanks to using a Rapier and Byleth survivng with a slither of HP left back at chapter 4. I almost lost Yuri at one point but I had Lysithea equipped with Stride so I was able to send Raph for back up and Marianne for healing which really saved my ass.

I'm considering either Balthus or Felix as replacements for Raphael by part 2 as my War Master or Grappler classes pending on which of them is better. Sylvain as a Paladin with Death Blow and Hit + 20 for strong and accurate Swift Strikes. I could get Ferdinand as well at some point but not a 100% sure yet. I do need him for the part 2 paralogue though. Could replace Lorenz at some point as well pending on how I feel about him.

I'm also thinking of turning Petra Assassin with Death Blow simply because I've already planned out my fliers. Unless of course anyone has a suggestion otherwise, I'm willing to hear you out. Bernie I'm planning on doing Bow Knight with Encloser since Claude also gets it. I figured two units with Encloser will be extremely helpful.

As for fliers, I've been planning on using F!Byleth and maybe Ingrid as Falcon Knights, Claude as Barbarossa, Hilda and Seteth as Wyvern Lords. Maybe Constance or Flayn as a Dark Flier. Of course I could also do Assassin Byleth and make Petra the flier instead. 

Yuri I could just leave him as a Trickster in case I need him in certain maps. Hapi I could also leave as Valkyrie. Linhardt and maybe Dorothea as Bishops and they can be Physic bots.

Catherine and Shamir I'm already getting them Hit +20 so they can help out in certain situations as well. 

If anyone wants to give me some ideas or tips going forward would be great. Thanks again in advance

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If I have any suggestions if I’m not too late, I’d suggest an evasion class ( Assassin, Falcon Knight, Wyvern Lord ) for Byleth. Going through Enlightened One on my Maddening playthrough was bad late game because Byleth did not have enough speed to double enemies. They were still good, but they needed a lot of support.

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59 minutes ago, ZeManaphy said:

If I have any suggestions if I’m not too late, I’d suggest an evasion class ( Assassin, Falcon Knight, Wyvern Lord ) for Byleth. Going through Enlightened One on my Maddening playthrough was bad late game because Byleth did not have enough speed to double enemies. They were still good, but they needed a lot of support.

I've been considering either Assassin or Falcon Knight for Byleth. Petra I could make either an Assassin or Wyvern Lord pending on what I have planned out already. I originally wanted to do EO when I first considered a maddening run sometime back but was told but basically everyone that EO would be too slow and require a lot of support like you said. Still much appreciated

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Don't feel "bad" about using EO, especially through the midgame.  It has the merit of requiring the least amount of faculty training, and even if you decide not to use it long-term, it's still worth getting Sacred Power to buff allies.  The utility from a few extra spells and  healing, along with mildly better Str & Mag growth than Assassin, definitely give it some reason to exist compared to Assassin or the like.  (Flyers like Falcon Knight / Wyvern Lord are still busted, of course, but that's more them being awesome than EO being bad.)

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  • 2 weeks later...

So far I'm near the end of chapter 9 getting some paralogues out of the way just for the sake of clearing out some battles. I did try white magic avoid +20 with dorothea. As long as she's in the bushes or thickets that provide extra avoid, even on maddening mode archers and brigands have a really hard time hitting her. For instance, one of the enemy archers or Raphael's and Ignatz's paralogue battle had only a 17% chance of hitting Dorothea and she's only a priest because I needed some extra healing power on my team. Brigands had about roughly I think 30 something percent chance of hitting me. I didn't write down the exact numbers but I was impressed with how low their hit rate was for me. Granted I had her hiding in a bush but still.

Then I did Marianne with sword avoid. And despite hiding in the bushes, archers only had roughly the same odds of hitting Marianne as they did trying to hit Dorothea. Cavaliers only had roughly a 53% chance because of Swordbreaker. Makes me wonder if maybe the devs knew what they were doing the entire time? I mean yes white magic avoid can only go on for so long but in terms of luring in the enemy and then taking them out afterwards, even for the short term effectiveness, it worked. This would probably convince me that Byleth can pull it off better because Byleth in general is more bulky compared to Dorothea. 

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