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So which FE games are worth replaying on a harder difficulty?


Samz707
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I'm not really a big fan of strategy games where the hard mode feels like it's just unfair stat changes. (And I can add Ambush spawns to that.)

Are there any Fe games where the "Hard" mode actually keeps the stats somewhat the same as Normal but the difficulty is primarily increased by more enemies (within reason.) /Enemies getting swapped by more difficult enemies? (So say, a regular Swordmaster is now packing a Lance Reaver.) , so your chances to hit and such are mostly the same, it's just the enemies are swapped around to be more dangerous mostly via changed weapons and classes rather inflated stats?

So the difficulty comes more from say, an enemy healer or a few extra Armor knights/mages now existing rather than ambush spawns/enemies seemingly taking half a dozen stat boosters.

Ideally also one that doesn't require any absurd "Outside the box" tactics, Like using only a small handful of power levelled units or absurd amounts of grinding.

Edited by Samz707
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Conquest Lunatic notably doesn't buff enemy stats at all from Conquest Hard-From what I've heard, both are very, very worthwhile. And I think neither use ambush spawns. Shadow Dragon has some annoying earlygame bosses and ambush spawns, but with a few exceptions, the ambush spawns are very tame. (It's probably played on H3 or 4, but maybe not 5) I personally quite like FE6 HM as well. FE12 Lunatic is supposed to be excellent but punishing, so that is also worth a play.

Also, Berwick Saga overall is quite difficult, even if it only has one difficulty mode.

From the sounds of it though, Conquest Hard is probably what you're looking for the most. (Berwick saga is similar in that it isn't difficult by having ridiculously OP enemies or jank, but equipment and skills.)

Edited by Benice
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Path of Radiance has a very solid hard mode. Enemies keep up with you in levels to the end, so it's not a case of being constantly outmatched. It also adds more enemies and cuts experience gains (and bonus exp). The game also doesn't have ambush spawns. Well, it has ONE ambush spawn in chapter 11, but that's it. The way they use reinforcements is fascinating  because they'll pop in around the exact point the player is expected to be in. But instead of cheesing a reset by killing your healer, it creates a scenario in which you're forced to fight two fronts.

But no I can't think of any hard mode that has identical stats to a previous mode but opts to change other things. Hard modes mean stat inflation, that's just the way it goes. FE7's Lyn hard mode changes nothing except the tutorials are removed. FE8's Normal Mode is identical to Easy, except the tutorials are removed (and from chapter 8 onward there are no more tutorials, so it becomes the same game entirely.

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23 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Well, it has ONE ambush spawn in chapter 11, but that's it.

For some reason the ravens in chapter 12 are as well. I personally would disagree about PoR's hard mode, (Albeit partially because of the animations) since it is overall astoundingly easy, at least in my opinion.

24 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

But no I can't think of any hard mode that has identical stats to a previous mode but opts to change other things. Hard modes mean stat inflation, that's just the way it goes.

Yeah, this is true. I'd say some do HMs better than others-If you are looking for a challenge, I'd personally go

  1. Berwick Saga
  2. Conquest Hard/Lunatic, (Have not yet played it, though)
  3. New Mystery Lunatic
  4. Shadow Dragon H3/H4
  5. FE6 HM

And then after that, most Hard modes become enemy spam fests. An alternative is to use the Yune randomizer to buff enemy growths in FE8, (I'd personally go scaling growths buffed by 30-50 percent-ish) as the thing that makes it easy is the pitiful enemy stats, not the placement. Well, not until the last few maps.

In terms of ones to avoid:

  1. Three Houses Maddening. Just...Take everything you can do wrong to make a game harder. That's Maddening.
  2. Three Houses hard. Hard is a very big misnomer. Sleep-inducing is probably a better name
  3. Awakening Lunatic+ is apparently absolutely terrible.
  4. Path of Radiance Lunatic, (Japan only, translations are avaliable. It's apparently terrible.)
  5. Path of Radiance hard.

(Path of Radiance can also have enemy growths buffed, but it's problems with map design are a lot deeper than enemy stats.)

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5 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

But no I can't think of any hard mode that has identical stats to a previous mode but opts to change other things. Hard modes mean stat inflation, that's just the way it goes.

Sucks, but yeah. Anyway, I'd avoid:

  • FE6 Hard mode. 
  • Awakening Lunatic and Lunatic+
  • SD H4 and H5. The early bosses are just awful, and don't get me started on the final boss.
  • Radiant Dawn Hard mode. Arbitrarily removing features is a big no-no.
  • New Mystery Lunatic. Repeats the mistakes that SD made. Woohoo, extra hoo.
4 hours ago, Benice said:

Awakening Lunatic+ is apparently absolutely terrible.

I'd take out the "apparently" from that sentence.

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I've heard good things about Conquest.

Berwick Saga only has one difficulty mode, but the difficulty definitely stems from enemy skillsets and equipment rather than stats. Heck, your own units depend on those things more than stats, as well.

I find New Mystery Lunatic to be brilliant, but it doesn't fit what you're looking for, as there's definitely stat inflation. I believe it handles it correctly, since while offensive stats are buffed greatly, defensive stats are not, so the point is to divert enemy forces into advantageous positions where you can dispatch them without getting overwhelmed. But if you don't want stat inflation of any kind, avoid this one as well.

That's... about it, really.

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6 hours ago, Benice said:

Awakening Lunatic+ is apparently absolutely terrible.

It's actually a guilty pleasure of mine, and has stuff that makes it really interesting once you get momentum. Randomized enemy skills means you have to adapt to the situation and can never use the exact same strategy twice, and the skills serve to counter a huge number of the series' well-known cheese tactics. I wish that skill concept were used in a better balanced game honestly.

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2 hours ago, Saint Rubenio said:

I've heard good things about Conquest.

Berwick Saga only has one difficulty mode, but the difficulty definitely stems from enemy skillsets and equipment rather than stats. Heck, your own units depend on those things more than stats, as well.

I find New Mystery Lunatic to be brilliant, but it doesn't fit what you're looking for, as there's definitely stat inflation. I believe it handles it correctly, since while offensive stats are buffed greatly, defensive stats are not, so the point is to divert enemy forces into advantageous positions where you can dispatch them without getting overwhelmed. But if you don't want stat inflation of any kind, avoid this one as well.

That's... about it, really.

I can handle a bit of stat inflation, I just know that modes like Lunatic plus massively over do it, so I don't mind it if it's not too absurd but I would prefer if it's mostly from changed enemies/added enemies, so it's mostly from stuff other than increased stats, doesn't Hector Hard mode add a ton of flying enemies?

Edited by Samz707
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Good Hard Modes, in my opinion:

Conquest Hard and Lunatic: They've been covered. No stat inflation (from Hard to Lunatic, at least), no ambush spawns, just increasingly tricky enemy formations and strategies to counter. The Lunatic endgame is a bit brutal if you don't have a plan in advance and you're unwilling to accept deaths, but that's barely a complaint.

Sacred Stones Hard: There's some stat inflation but it's pretty modest, except on promoted enemies, and really that's just addressing that promoted enemies were way too weak (bugged?) on SS Normal. The game's in a good place at this point if you avoid cheese strategies.

Path of Radiance Hard: tbh I still think it's too easy, but there's basically no reason not to play it if you're replaying PoR. It adds fog on a couple maps but it's mostly inoffensive, otherwise it just feels like the game always should have been. (I can't speak to PoR Maniac, which is JP-only.)


Ones I recommend, but with reservation:

Three Houses Maddening: It has the things you dislike, which is heavy stat inflation and ambush spawns. I don't mind the former because there's so much cheese on the player side in 3H that the stats are needed to keep up, and while ambush spawns are awful they're less awful when you can rewing time a turn and plan around them.

Binding Blade Hard: Fun enough but be warned some of the ambushes are just awful and unfair (the one they add in chapter 6 comes to mind). It's fine, but either play it with save states or find a good resource for looking up all the reinforcements.


Ones I don't recommend:

Blazing Blade Hard: Randomly decreases your deployment slots for no good reason. (It's a shame because HHM re-envisions a couple maps to be notably more interesting than they were before, particularly Cog of Destiny.)

Radiant Dawn Hard: Randomly removes the weapon triangle and your ability to see enemy threat ranges for no reason. (If you want to play a proxy for RD Hard without this nonsense, just play Normal and use less bonus exp.)

Shadow Dragon Hard: Just stat inflation and ambush spawns, and a poorly-balanced earlygame.

Awakening Lunatic(+): The enemy stats are so high I just ended up relying on cheese strats like Nosferatu spam. It didn't feel like I was playing Fire Emblem. Also ambush spawns.


Haven't played myself

I'm modestly interested in trying New Mystery's harder difficulties (haven't played above Hard yet) but I read that the earlygame was poorly balanced and all but forced a certain build for Kris, which is no bueno. I see some fans here, so correct me if I'm wrong!

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Speaking about the ones I've played:

  • Binding Blade Hard is a unique case where it has same-turn reinforcements, but they're not mode-conditional so you'll know what you're in for. In fact, that can be said about HM in general: the only major difference is you lose access to the base shop, which sold E-ranks at 150% price. Be warned that earlygame is a gut punch though, with double bonus levels until the prep screen, Chapter 6 having some dickish extra reinforcements and Chapter 7 can be downright overwhelming with the initial javelin-heavy onslaught.
  • Shadow Dragon Merciless is a mess early on, but it's definitely challenging. Chapter 2-3 has you unconditionally getting 2RKO'd so you need to use your scrub squad wisely, and the first three bosses are among the series' most infamous. Stat inflation is limited to offenses and it has a good weapon scaling curve, although I would've preferred they mix forged silvers in with the braves at the end. Most of the same-turn reinforcements are overrated, although your usual first encounter with them (chapter 7) is harsh. Still, save points go a long way in making the mode more manageable.
  • New Mystery Lunatic is a tighter designed and better tested Merciless mode, and it also has some constructive changes like swapping out a few broken resources for something else and giving enemy dragons 1-2 range. It has some problems you might not like though: the stat curve is a lot faster, same-turn reinforcements are meaner with how they change the spawn conditions and I think the weapon curve could've been handled better. You also have to get through the Prologue before you get to the main game, which is... an acquired taste with its more limited options, claustrophobic maps, poorly handled "route splits" and a very sink-or-swim style of teaching you how to play Lunatic that you might find unfun.

I also played Blazing Blade, Sacred Stones and Echoes hardest difficulties but they're a lot less impressive. HHM's stat increases wear thin very quickly alongside the poor enemy curve and has several un-constructive changes. Sacred Stones has the same weak progression on top of being shorter, although it doesn't have the un-constructive changes. Echoes Hard isn't much to write home about aside from two or three maps, there's stat and equipment inflation but it's not that noticeable.

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6 hours ago, Samz707 said:

doesn't Hector Hard mode add a ton of flying enemies?

Yes, but speaking as a guy who was absolutely stomped into the ground by HHM: If you have any idea at all what you're doing, it is quite easy and it doesn't quite sound like what you are looking for. The enemy quality is really, really low and they just throw themselves at you. (With a few lategame exceptions.) I'd say that if you don't count Lyn mode, HHM's pretty good from chapters 11-20. Then after chapter 20, it gets really boring and/or unfair until Battle Before Dawn, where generics go abruptly from 9 AS, (which they've been at since basically chapter 19-26)  to about 12, and then Cog of Destiny happens. (Oh, and definitely DO NOT do Genesis without a mine for the mine glitch.)

Of the FEs I've played, (6-11, Berwick Saga, part of Verdant Wind in FE16) none of them have flawless Hard Modes. FE6 has ambush spawns and some really dodgy bosses but otherwise is very good in my opinion, I've already talked about HHM, FE8 has a very well-desiged but easy Hard Mode, I will avoid making comment on FE9, because I really despise it, FE10 Hard isn't worth your while. FE10 Normal might be, since the earlygame is quite difficult. I will say that the difficulty and map design both fall off a cliff after part 3, though.

 

FE11 is deeply flawed in the earlygame, (and I still haven't finished it, but have thoroughly enjoyed it on H4 thus far) but if you look past the astoundingly annoying Earlygame bosses, (chapters 1-3, to be precise. After that, they're non-problems thanks to the wing spear) and the final boss, you are left with a really solid game in my opinion. People do kind of make a bigger deal out of the first bosses than they earn. Yes, they are poorly designed and annoying, but it's one stationary enemy on the map. H3 may be the better choice, though.

The ambush spawns are there but are overall quite tame with a few exceptions. The maps are just plain fun to play in my opinion. The difficulty curve also seems to be pretty good, and, at least on H4, I haven't needed to cheese the game with General Wolf+Sedgar. I've used almost entirely bad units, and it has been tough yet manageable.

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19 minutes ago, PeaceRibbon said:

I keep seeing Conquest Hard and Lunatic being mentioned so I have to ask, are Birthright and Revelations similar in the ways they change the difficulty or do they use other difficulty modifiers?

Nah. Birthright just sends more enemies at you, whereas Revelation buffs stats.

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Honestly I'd recommend basically all of them.

*Binding Blade Hard Mode is, IMO, the way the game was intended to be played and given how anyone critically talking about the game assumes Hard Mode, I think it's the way a majority of its fan base treats it.

*Hector Hard Mode does quite a bit of what you're suggesting if I remember correctly, namely changing one map to be entirely mages.

*If you're going to play Sacred Stones of Path of Radiance at all you're best doing it on hard mode to get some sort of challenge as they're pretty easy as far as Fire Emblem games go (no experience with the axed Maddening Mode in Path of Radiance unfortunately).

*Radiant Dawn Hard Mode does have the bullshit removing enemy range checking. It really shouldn't have been done. You can still just look at a units move and calculate where they'll stand. So it just means a lot more busy work. But that aside Radiant Dawn Hard Mode does provide a pretty great challenge. People complain about the removal of weapon triangle, but I'm pretty okay about that because it is something designed to make the game harder and the weapon triangle does benefit the player far more than it does the AI.

*Shadow Dragon basically has hard mode of your choice. You can tailor the game exactly to your own difficulty. New Mystery has this too, but I've only played that game once. It's Lunatic mode is very highly regarded by it's fanbase.

*Awakening Lunatic I think is probably the least appealing to the OP's criteria has it does massively boost all it's stats (Lunatic+ is the same buffed stats with extra op skills), but since Awakening is designed to be a game that you can snap over your knee with powerhouse units it's only really challenging in its first half. Fates is similar but manages to remain challenging throughout, however it does make some of the really annoying maps in Fates worse. Apotheosis is my favorite challenge in either of those games, but that's one you need to grind everyone up to max stats with Limit Break to really do.

*Echoes contrary to other Fire Emblem games has a really easy beginning, so I'd definitely want to play the hardest difficulty to have the most challenge throughout in that one.

*A tonne of people complain about Maddening in Three Houses, but I actually quite like it. Mainly in how the enemies are actually fast for once. Which is a really nice change in Fire Emblem. But my experience with Three Houses Maddening is abusing New Game+ stuff, which people might argue against being a fair assessment, but to that I say hey, New Game+ abuse is part of the game and more importantly, it's fun as all hell to play through the game with stuff like Black Magic Range+1 and Quick Riposte. And Maddening provides an opportunity to do that without just feeling like you're cheesing the entire game.

Edited by Jotari
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7 hours ago, Jotari said:

But my experience with Three Houses Maddening is abusing New Game+ stuff, which people might argue against being a fair assessment, but to that I say hey, New Game+ abuse is part of the game and more importantly, it's fun as all hell to play through the game with stuff like Black Magic Range+1 and Quick Riposte. And Maddening provides an opportunity to do that without just feeling like you're cheesing the entire game.

Considering how, when looking at Awakening and Fates, I was always like "ooh, those level 15 promoted skills are great!" -shame that by the time I get them all I've capped level and the game is almost over. And in the case of Awakening, blending together the skills of different classes inherently means capping practically every stat in the process, killing the difficulty. NG+ would've been great for Afatening!

Edited by Interdimensional Observer
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39 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Considering how, when looking at Awakening and Fates, I was always like "ooh, those level 15 promoted skills are great!" -shame that by the time I get them all I've capped level and the game is almost over. And in the case of Awakening, blending together the 15 promoted skills of different classes inherently means capping practically every stat in the process, killing the difficulty. NG+ would've been great for Afatening!

Well Fates does give you a system of inheriting skills form your other files for some of that. Awakening you can get log book avatars, but their stats do carry over as well which will leave only the final maps being balanced against them (and not even them if you've reclassed a few times). That's why I like Apotheosis. It provides a challenge that was actually catered towards maxed stats optimal skills. I thought it was a major shame Fates didn't provide anything like that.

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2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well Fates does give you a system of inheriting skills form your other files for some of that. Awakening you can get log book avatars, but their stats do carry over as well which will leave only the final maps being balanced against them (and not even them if you've reclassed a few times). That's why I like Apotheosis. It provides a challenge that was actually catered towards maxed stats optimal skills. I thought it was a major shame Fates didn't provide anything like that.

Funny enough, Apotheosis killed my enthusiasm for grinding forever. Right after my third completion of it I suddenly realized that I had spent dozens of hours devoted to the sole purpose of preparing for a mindlessly easy battle that was over in 20 minutes. So I was actually relieved Fates didn't have anything like that (especially since it would be hell to train for on Conquest), but what did disappoint me was that so much of the challenging DLC was focused on pre-deployed units, and there was nothing in the DLC for my conventional endgame team to sink their teeth into after the game was over.

Edited by Alastor15243
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6 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Funny enough, Apotheosis killed my enthusiasm for grinding forever. Right after my third completion of it I suddenly realized that I had spent dozens of hours devoted to the sole purpose of preparing for a mindlessly easy battle that was over in 20 minutes. 

Did you play Apotheosis secret route? Because when I say Apotheosis I really mean the secret route "true" Apotheosis if you will. Which an attempt at takes well over an hour, almost two. Which seems to be the standard judging by a quick youtube search on the matter.

6 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

 what did disappoint me was that so much of the challenging DLC was focused on pre-deployed units, and there was nothing in the DLC for my conventional endgame team to sink their teeth into after the game was over.

Even though I wish Fates did have its own Apotheosis, I do actually like the predeployed maps it provides. I like the sense of challenge it sets up using known quantified resources. It's a bit like a punishing early game map in Radiant Dawn or Binding Blade, only it feels like it's meant to be that way instead of accidentally being a top heavy challenge in an entire game. That being said I think Heirs of Fates is kind of let down by every single map being predeployed. Actually having it be a mini campaign like Cindered Shadows with your own units that grow over the course of half a dozen maps would have been better. I feel similarly about Future Past which I'd even like to see have an extra few maps to find out what the hell happened to Aversa and Validar in that timeline.

Edited by Jotari
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12 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Did you play Apotheosis secret route? Because when I say Apotheosis I really mean the secret route "true" Apotheosis if you will. Which an attempt at takes well over an hour, almost two. Which seems to be the standard judging by a quick youtube search on the matter.

Yeah, I did the secret route each time. Really? An hour? Closer to two? Fully optimized teams barely spend more than a turn or two on each wave, so I'd be really surprised if my memory's deceiving me that much in terms of my experience with it. At any rate, it certainly felt ridiculously fast. I can only assume attack animations take a while.

Edited by Alastor15243
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3 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Yeah, I did the secret route each time. Really? An hour? Closer to two? Fully optimized teams barely spend more than a turn or two on each wave, so I'd be really surprised if my memory's deceiving me that much in terms of my experience with it. At any rate, it certainly felt ridiculously fast. I can only assume attack animations take a while.

Literal first result for Apthoesis secret route

Seems that video doesn't even have commentary to distract the player. It's just pure playing with the length of each turn being deciding what to do.

Here's a no DLC run that's twenty minutes long, but it seems the footage is being played at times two or possibly even times three speed with animations off. So factoring in animations on and most players not playing through a well practices rehearsed strategy (ie taking time to think about each turn) that doesn't seem unreasonable at all.

Here's one that literally manages to complete the thing in twenty minutes.

But once again this is with animations off and it's clearly been designed as an entire playthrough to build apotheosis with every single unit having Galeforce. It's also a clearly intentionally designed strategy using rescue and stuff to prepare for the next wave. And even then it seems the strategy relies on successful proc skills being pulled off at certain point. So while a sub 20 minute clear (without combat animations) is possible it's definitely not the standard player experience of this map. Like it's possible to take down Deghensea in one turn with planning, but most players won't.

 

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5 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

@Jotari I guess the big takeaway from this is that I did so many goddamned hours of grinding that it might have made 1-2 hours feel like 20 minutes. That's how much Apotheosis turned me off grinding.

Now that seems like a distinct possibility.

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