Need some advice for early BE, and Church/Staff units

[ruruo]

I'm doing the final VW map tonight :D, and will move on to CF/SS soon. It'll be on NG+ Maddening too. I doing CF first, but I plan to switch to using all the church/staff units for SS. 

When would it be best to make the split file during White Clouds?  I'm thinking either right before the Ch 11 decision or earlier when Byleth hits Lv 15. Or I could just make the switch post-timeskip so the students are Ch13 ready, and not do a skip strat. Really depends on if it's worth the extra few chapters for the church/staff units. Buying back some proficiencies via Renown is an option, but it might be a bit limited as I've never actively invested in any of them on previous runs, a lot was just left on default. 
 
And then for the units, at the moment something like:

Catherine - Falcon Knight?
Shamir - Sniper (/Bow Knight)
Alois - Grappler/War Master
Manuela - ?? (Trickster, Gemory, Assassin??)
Hauneman - ?? (Dark Knight?)
Cyril  - Bow Knight or Wyvern? 
Seteth - Wyvern Lord
Flayn - Dancer (or Dark Flier?)

Not too sure about them in general, and I find Hauneman and Manuela trickiest. I'm tempted to train Manuela through the Reason Bane, but I'm not sure if Bolting would be worth it. Hauneman seems to want to be Dark Knight but the Bow proficiency makes me want to try bows on him. 

That makes 8 units in total. I can take on another 4.  2 for the core team, and 2 extras for 12 unit chapters. Could hold back some of the Beagles or any recommendations/PMUs for the 2 core units?

Thank you guys as always, for going through this!

[Dark Holy Elf]

Your team looks solid. I'd probably leave Alois as a Grappler rather than bothering with War Master, since he won't double much he'll be using lots of combat arts, and Fierce Iron Fist is the best one due to being three hits. For Manuela, getting Bolting is definitely quite a slog, so as much as I'm a fan of siege tomes, I prefer her using something besides reason for her offence (I had decent results with her as an Assassin with Darting Blow and a Levin Sword+). You can do Trickster instead if you really want 1 shot of Warp off a shaky magic stat, but you give up a lot for that (move, stealth, speed, swordfaire, ignoring terrain penalties). That said, if you're just planning to slot her in as an 11th or 12th unit, a Trickster with Warp and Foul Play is nice.

[Glennstavos]

30 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Your team looks solid. I'd probably leave Alois as a Grappler rather than bothering with War Master, since he won't double much he'll be using lots of combat arts, and Fierce Iron Fist is the best one due to being three hits. 

I have to disagree with this. Any kill Alois might need Fierce Iron Fist for can be picked up at 100 accuracy with One-Two Punch, a combat art he joins your team with. Sure he'll take one hit from the enemy using it, but his natural bulk is excellent. His level 20s ought to be spent nabbing helpful class masteries like Death Blow, Str +2, or Wrath. Between Quick Riposte and One-Two Punch, Alois is a unit that cannot be doubled so long as he's above 50% health.

[Anathaco]

I've met multiple people who strongly recommend Magic Bow Sniper Hanneman, so if you do want to try him with Bows that may be a good idea. I haven't done it myself but I am attempting it this run. Just have him master mage, put him in archer and have him master that (by adjutant if necessary), then promote him to sniper and master that as well.

Agreed with Dark Holy Elf on Manuela, Bolting is nice but kind of not worth it. She could always stay as a Bishop for extra support, or you could train her reason just enough to give her access to Gremory (to like B/C+, I think). Assassin or Trickster to give her more offensive power also sounds like a decent idea, but I haven't tried it myself.

I've done Flayn as both Dark Flier and Dancer- I'd personally recommend Dark Flier but if you don't have any other candidates for dancer then that definitely works too.

In terms of when to make the split, I'd say save at the after battle scene of chapter 11 so you just jump straight into the choice. Beforehand, recruit the teachers ASAP and set them on the goals you want them to be for SS. The only one that will actually waste that effort when you go CF is Flayn, as she's the only one who can join and then leave- the others either can't join or stay with you the whole time.

[Dark Holy Elf]

1 hour ago, Glennstavos said:

I have to disagree with this. Any kill Alois might need Fierce Iron Fist for can be picked up at 100 accuracy with One-Two Punch, a combat art he joins your team with. Sure he'll take one hit from the enemy using it, but his natural bulk is excellent.

Fierce Iron Fist is three hits at +1 power, while One-Two Punch is two hits at +8 power (with a further +4 from War Master's higher strength, for a net difference of 11 power). So Alois needs to do 22 damage per swing with FIF to match his One-Two Punch, in addition to saving him from a counter. EDIT: That's actually much less easy than I was assuming, so it's a reasonably close comparison. Grappler is also more mobile due to ignoring terrain. War Master does more damage if quads are in the picture, but Alois has a lot of trouble getting those. It also has more enemy phase damage, though you'll want to run axes alongside fists for that since gauntlets don't have much EP potential.

Edited October 29, 2020 by Dark Holy Elf
whoops, bad math

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

3 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

I have to disagree with this. Any kill Alois might need Fierce Iron Fist for can be picked up at 100 accuracy with One-Two Punch, a combat art he joins your team with. Sure he'll take one hit from the enemy using it, but his natural bulk is excellent. His level 20s ought to be spent nabbing helpful class masteries like Death Blow, Str +2, or Wrath. Between Quick Riposte and One-Two Punch, Alois is a unit that cannot be doubled so long as he's above 50% health.

 

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Fierce Iron Fist is three hits at +1 power, while One-Two Punch is two hits at +8 power (with a further +4 from War Master's higher strength, for a net difference of 11 power). So Alois needs to do 22 damage per swing with FIF to match his One-Two Punch, in addition to saving him from a counter. EDIT: That's actually much less easy than I was assuming, so it's a reasonably close comparison. Grappler is also more mobile due to ignoring terrain. War Master does more damage if quads are in the picture, but Alois has a lot of trouble getting those. It also has more enemy phase damage, though you'll want to run axes alongside fists for that since gauntlets don't have much EP potential.

Compromise suggestion: have Alois master Brigand (maybe Fighter too, if you have the time), go Grappler, certify as a War Master, try it out, and use whichever of the two you prefer? Heck, you can even switch between chapters - preferring mobility and Fierce Iron Fist in some, and the crit boost and Axefaire on others.

5 hours ago, ruruo said:

That makes 8 units in total. I can take on another 4.  2 for the core team, and 2 extras for 12 unit chapters. Could hold back some of the Beagles or any recommendations/PMUs for the 2 core units?

Do you have a plan to cheese (like, beat in 1 or 2 turns) chapter 13? If not, I would strongly suggest training the Black Eagle students to be ready. Especially the early joiners: Petra, Caspar, and Dorothea. If you wanna drop them post-skip, that's well and good.

For my part, I've been known to stan running at least one "defense-stacking Fortress/Great Knight" build on Maddening. Master Soldier, give them a Shield and a defense-boosting batallion, and let enemy Assassins and Grapplers break themselves on that armor. On AM I used Gilbert, then Balthus on SS. Balthus could be a good option for you, but so could a recruited Raphael. Or, it's a potential direction to take either Ferdinand or Caspar, if you're not sure what to do with them. And on chapters where you don't need them, they can serve as a guard adjutant.

[ruruo]

@Dark Holy Elf @Anathaco 

Ok, Assassin it is for Manuela, Sniper for Hanneman, and  Flayn down the Dark Flier path. 
Yeah, I'll have Alois certify for both Grappler and War master in that case.

@Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Ahh def stacking, I've always avoided armour classes, and def stacking in favour of dodgetanking so it'll be cool to try it for a run. I'll take Balthus in that case, I'm be running a couple of the wolves on CF, so adding him feels pretty natural.

As for Ch13. I've checked out cheese strats for it, but I"m not sure. I'm leaning to making the split at Ch11 as suggested by Anathaco to save replaying. So trying to fight it with the students might be ok, it's only a chapter away. I'm likely going to hold on to Petra and Doro. Petra's known to be pretty good, and Doro I could keep her as the Dancer for both routes. But maybe it's better to just cheese it this time, to be safe.

 

 

 

 

[Dark Holy Elf]

8 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Compromise suggestion: have Alois master Brigand (maybe Fighter too, if you have the time), go Grappler, certify as a War Master, try it out, and use whichever of the two you prefer? Heck, you can even switch between chapters - preferring mobility and Fierce Iron Fist in some, and the crit boost and Axefaire on others.

Yeah, I think that's actually a good idea for Alois, since he has the A in axes anyway. Grappler's biggest advantage is their mobility over terrain, but this varies from extremely present (Marianne's paralogue) to almost non-existent (Enbarr 2), so it might make sense to switch between them depending on map.

[Barren]

Even if you keep Alois as a Grappler, you could still go to War Master to get Quick Riposte then go back to Grappler to keep Fierce Iron Fist. You can even combine that with One-Two Punch, Fading Blow and Healing Focus if you want.

[Agro]

I just did an identical run recently on NG+ Maddening too.

Just some stuff to be aware of:

Catherine and Cyril won't join until Chapter 12, so if you don't have any skill levels from previous saves it is REALLY tedious to train them into fliers. At that point in the game, Cyril's durability is really bad and will get one rounded by everything, so he's best going into Sniper/Bow Knight and spamming Point Blank Volley. Catherine will have some accuracy issues, unless you give her a good battalion and I'm pretty sure her base Authority is E so it will be a while before she picks up there.

Manuela can scum for Gremory at C+ Reason as long as she has A in Faith - but it'll be a while before she gets Bolting.

You also won't have anyone with Physic in that team, so try to keep Linhardt or similar around to Physicbot.

Dark Flier Flayn is fun and definitely the most effective way to use her given the rest of the team.

Haven't tried Sniper Hanneman but that seems fun!

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

8 hours ago, Agro said:

Catherine and Cyril won't join until Chapter 12, so if you don't have any skill levels from previous saves it is REALLY tedious to train them into fliers. At that point in the game, Cyril's durability is really bad and will get one rounded by everything, so he's best going into Sniper/Bow Knight and spamming Point Blank Volley. Catherine will have some accuracy issues, unless you give her a good battalion and I'm pretty sure her base Authority is E so it will be a while before she picks up there.

Re: Cyril, isn't the play to rush his Flight rank, so he can certify as a Wyvern Rider to get those juicy bases? It should come more easily than Sniper, at least, even if that's what you want to use him as.

As for Catherine, she joins with D Authority in all routes. Which still sucks, just slightly less so. Interestingly, her personal ability provides an incentive (+5 Prt, Rsl) to keep her batallion-less. But most players would prefer a boost to hit/crit/attack on her.

8 hours ago, Agro said:

You also won't have anyone with Physic in that team, so try to keep Linhardt or similar around to Physicbot.

Kind of weird that they didn't give Manuela Physic.

Consider that she's, y'know, a physician.

In fact, she only gets one healing spell! Uh, maybe Mercedes should run the Infirmary from now on.

[ruruo]

@Agro @Shanty Pete's 1st Mate

That’s fantastic, thanks for the tips about skill levels. Ngl, their skill levels might suck 🙈. Will see what can be done as I get closer to Ch11. Didn’t expect to do another all routes play through so didn’t pay that much attention to them at all.