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drattakbowser

Crimson Flower could be Fates : Conquest ?

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I mean honestly, the route that seems the most like Conquest to me is Silver Snow. I'm actually playing through my first Conquest run right now and I feel like they share a lot of the same story/character elements. SS Byleth, for instance, makes a very similar choice to Corrin's in Conquest, where she decides she must remain loyal to the Church even though they aren't as righteous as they first seemed, rather than side with their enemy who may in fact have had the right idea all along. Rhea shares a lot of similarities with Garon as well. While she's clearly a far more tragic character, her actions being the result of delusions and misguided beliefs rather than Garon's outright malice, Rhea's poor leadership (stunting humanity's technological growth and failing to do anything about TWSITD or the crest system before it was too late) is ultimately what pushed Fodlan to the brink of war. As such, Byleth's choice, just like Corrin's, is to remain hopeful that she can save the Church and reform it from within instead of letting it pay the price for its leader's irresponsibility. Even Seteth to a certain degree comes across very similar to Xander in that he's the one person who's truly close to Rhea, seeing her almost as family, and who continues to see the good in her despite knowing the poor decisions she's made. But by the end, when Rhea fully succumbs to her madness, even he realizes that she's too far gone to be reasoned with and must be stopped for the sake of Fodlan.

Crimson Flower by comparison feels more like a darker version of Birthright, where Byleth, upon realizing the injustices of the Church, doesn't believe there's any good in siding with them and instead chooses to fight for Edelgard's cause, which she sees as more noble.

And the unfortunate truth is, in both cases, neither choice is particularly wrong.

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like RainbowMoon i say no but it still seen like a bit of it in Rhea feel backstab and all....

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13 hours ago, nedya said:

like RainbowMoon i say no but it still seen like a bit of it in Rhea feel backstab and all....

I'm sorry, I'm a little confused about what you're trying to say. But the whole idea of the comparison is that Byleth's loyalty is torn between the Church and Edelgard, just like Corrin when he's forced to choose between his two families. And in both cases, to side with one is to betray the other. All I was talking about was why I think the Silver Snow route has a lot in common with Conquest.

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3 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

I'm sorry, I'm a little confused about what you're trying to say. But the whole idea of the comparison is that Byleth's loyalty is torn between the Church and Edelgard, just like Corrin when he's forced to choose between his two families. And in both cases, to side with one is to betray the other. All I was talking about was why I think the Silver Snow route has a lot in common with Conquest.

i do see you point but what about VW and AM three houses have 4 routes while fate only have 3. 

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3 hours ago, nedya said:

i do see you point but what about VW and AM three houses have 4 routes while fate only have 3. 

I didn't bring up AM and VW because story-wise I don't think they share many common threads with Conquest. The OP seemed to be asking if CF's story was the closest to Conquest's, and I explained why I thought it was actually SS that had the most in common.

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On 11/27/2020 at 12:01 PM, RainbowMoon said:

I mean honestly, the route that seems the most like Conquest to me is Silver Snow. I'm actually playing through my first Conquest run right now and I feel like they share a lot of the same story/character elements. SS Byleth, for instance, makes a very similar choice to Corrin's in Conquest, where she decides she must remain loyal to the Church even though they aren't as righteous as they first seemed, rather than side with their enemy who may in fact have had the right idea all along. Rhea shares a lot of similarities with Garon as well. While she's clearly a far more tragic character, her actions being the result of delusions and misguided beliefs rather than Garon's outright malice, Rhea's poor leadership (stunting humanity's technological growth and failing to do anything about TWSITD or the crest system before it was too late) is ultimately what pushed Fodlan to the brink of war. As such, Byleth's choice, just like Corrin's, is to remain hopeful that she can save the Church and reform it from within instead of letting it pay the price for its leader's irresponsibility. Even Seteth to a certain degree comes across very similar to Xander in that he's the one person who's truly close to Rhea, seeing her almost as family, and who continues to see the good in her despite knowing the poor decisions she's made. But by the end, when Rhea fully succumbs to her madness, even he realizes that she's too far gone to be reasoned with and must be stopped for the sake of Fodlan.

I like this take. Your argued it really well.

I’m just not sure that Byleth actually sees the church as bad, at least not when they make the choice. They aren’t told anything (iirc) about why Edelgard is doing what she’s doing like... ever in this route and express no desire period to really change anything about the church, just to stop Edelgard’s war.

Initially I would have argued that CF is closer to Conquest based on the fact that they’ve been bonding with Edelgard the whole game at this point, yet at the same time they are a child of the goddess so they are very close to being related to Seteth, Flayn, and Rhea (I mean they technically aren’t but (birthright/hidden truths dlc spoilers))

Spoiler

Corrin isn’t relayed to their birthright siblings either so...

On 11/27/2020 at 12:01 PM, RainbowMoon said:

Crimson Flower by comparison feels more like a darker version of Birthright, where Byleth, upon realizing the injustices of the Church, doesn't believe there's any good in siding with them and instead chooses to fight for Edelgard's cause, which she sees as more noble.

Unfortunately a lot of the morality is stripped from the decision by having Byleth learn about the why of Edelgard’s actions and what the church did after the fact on CF, mostly.

I know I kinda said this earlier but still. I mean I suppose the player can guess based on what she’s already said.

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16 hours ago, Sooks said:

I like this take. Your argued it really well.

I’m just not sure that Byleth actually sees the church as bad, at least not when they make the choice. They aren’t told anything (iirc) about why Edelgard is doing what she’s doing like... ever in this route and express no desire period to really change anything about the church, just to stop Edelgard’s war.

Thanks! The funny thing is, I'd never really thought about Silver Snow's story all that much before I played Conquest. Now that I see the similarities, I really wish they'd given SS a bit more depth as a story to explore the Church and its characters more fully. Unfortunately, it ends up reading very much like the rough draft route.

I mean, Edelgard's motives are given a lot of foreshadowing in White Clouds. There's her dialogue with Byleth after the Lonato and Miklan chapters, the Flame Emperor scene after Remire and then both her C-supports with Byleth. I think by the time the big decision rolls around, Byleth has at least a pretty good idea as to why Edelgard's doing what she's doing. I agree though that Byleth's motivation for siding with the Church is a bit fuzzy. By chapter 11, she's seen a few hints that something's not right with the Church, or at least Rhea (Jeralt's diary, the creepy lap pillow scene, Rhea's disappointment when something didn't happen to Byleth when she sat on the throne), but unfortunately none of those things ever really get brought up again until the very end. So Byleth's reasoning pretty much goes unexplained for the whole route.

16 hours ago, Sooks said:

Initially I would have argued that CF is closer to Conquest based on the fact that they’ve been bonding with Edelgard the whole game at this point, yet at the same time they are a child of the goddess so they are very close to being related to Seteth, Flayn, and Rhea

Ah, that's another interesting take! Byleth's certainly gotten to know Edelgard better than Rhea in White Clouds, so CF could definitely read as staying loyal to the "familiar side" (like Conquest), while SS is siding with some relatively unfamiliar faces like on Birthright. It all depends on how you look at it, really.

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20 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

Thanks! The funny thing is, I'd never really thought about Silver Snow's story all that much before I played Conquest. Now that I see the similarities, I really wish they'd given SS a bit more depth as a story to explore the Church and its characters more fully. Unfortunately, it ends up reading very much like the rough draft route.

Yep, I agree. I only like Silver Snow because I think playing as the resistance army is cool, other than that it sort of lacks its own identity.

20 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

By chapter 11, she's seen a few hints that something's not right with the Church, or at least Rhea (Jeralt's diary, the creepy lap pillow scene,

I don’t see anything wrong with the lap pillow scene. How is that creepy?

20 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

Ah, that's another interesting take! Byleth's certainly gotten to know Edelgard better than Rhea in White Clouds, so CF could definitely read as staying loyal to the "familiar side" (like Conquest), while SS is siding with some relatively unfamiliar faces like on Birthright. It all depends on how you look at it, really.

I mean in conquest you’re, well... conquering, much like you do in CF. Meanwhile in Birthright and SS you sort of counter invade.

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The problem with attempting to draw a straight line between any of the Fates routes, and the 3H ones, is a difference in characterization. Corrin has an established loyalty, to Nohr (and more specifically, the Nohrian royal family), when the game begins. To go Conquest is to cleave to that loyalty; to go Birthright is to forsake it; to go Revelation is to attempt a middle course.

With Byleth, though, their only obvious loyalty is to Jeralt, and to his mercenary company. The Church, Kingdom, Empire, and Alliance... none of them seem to have any emotional pull on our Ashen Demon. And given what happens to Jeralt, they can't really use their loyalty to chart their course. There may be the argument that going CF is to forsake that loyalty, but the game never really puts blame for Jeralt's fate on the Empire, nor on Edelgard. In BE routes, the decision opportunity is a question of personal affinity toward Edelgard, not a question of nations.

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20 hours ago, Sooks said:

I like this take. Your argued it really well.

I’m just not sure that Byleth actually sees the church as bad, at least not when they make the choice. They aren’t told anything (iirc) about why Edelgard is doing what she’s doing like... ever in this route and express no desire period to really change anything about the church, just to stop Edelgard’s war.

Who knows what Byleth sees?

But certainly many players (certainly including me) see many things wrong with the church (and Rhea specifically) by the time the choice rolls around - in addition to the things @RainbowMoon listed there's the scene with Rhea/Seteth at the start of chapter 11 which strongly hints that Byleth is Rhea's little science project - which is why so many players go on that route.

The lap pillow scene would be pretty creepy to me even in a vacuum (just imagine waking up in the lap of your boss!), but viewed in the context of Jeralt's diary it's extra bad IMO. But not everyone reads it that way and that's fine! The choice is so much about your impression of the two pivotal characters and which one you find more trustworthy.

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3 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Who knows what Byleth sees?

Good point.

3 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

But certainly many players (certainly including me) see many things wrong with the church (and Rhea specifically) by the time the choice rolls around

I was trying to make the parallel between Byleth and Corrin, but this is also true. I mean I picked CF before SS.

3 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

The lap pillow scene would be pretty creepy to me even in a vacuum (just imagine waking up in the lap of your boss!)

You can’t convince me Byleth hasn’t imagined that situation but themself as the boss and their student on their lap.

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2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

The problem with attempting to draw a straight line between any of the Fates routes, and the 3H ones, is a difference in characterization. Corrin has an established loyalty, to Nohr (and more specifically, the Nohrian royal family), when the game begins. To go Conquest is to cleave to that loyalty; to go Birthright is to forsake it; to go Revelation is to attempt a middle course.

With Byleth, though, their only obvious loyalty is to Jeralt, and to his mercenary company. The Church, Kingdom, Empire, and Alliance... none of them seem to have any emotional pull on our Ashen Demon. And given what happens to Jeralt, they can't really use their loyalty to chart their course. There may be the argument that going CF is to forsake that loyalty, but the game never really puts blame for Jeralt's fate on the Empire, nor on Edelgard. In BE routes, the decision opportunity is a question of personal affinity toward Edelgard, not a question of nations.

That's a really good point. Corrin's definitely much more established as a character, while a lot of Byleth's actions and decisions are left up to interpretation, so the player can characterize her however they choose.

50 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

But certainly many players (certainly including me) see many things wrong with the church (and Rhea specifically) by the time the choice rolls around - in addition to the things @RainbowMoon listed there's the scene with Rhea/Seteth at the start of chapter 11 which strongly hints that Byleth is Rhea's little science project - which is why so many players go on that route.

I'd actually thought of bringing up that dialogue as well, but then I wasn't quite sure if that was something Byleth actually saw/heard or only the player.

55 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

The lap pillow scene would be pretty creepy to me even in a vacuum (just imagine waking up in the lap of your boss!), but viewed in the context of Jeralt's diary it's extra bad IMO.

Agreed. And it only gets worse in hindsight when you find out that Rhea's technically Byleth's grandma, which makes the scene read as very incest-y on future playthroughs.

52 minutes ago, Sooks said:

You can’t convince me Byleth hasn’t imagined that situation but themself as the boss and their student on their lap.

Fantasizing is one thing. Actually doing it to someone (your own granddaughter, no less) while they're unconsious is another.

And also you can't convince me that Byleth's lap would be the pillow if she did it with Dimitri.

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It's funny but if Rhea is a bit of Garon in that sense, then you could also say she is like Medeus with her motivation and a Camilla in everything else about her personality and appearance. Yet Medeus is considered evil despite his reasonings to be spiteful because of what happened to the earth dragons and Camilla... Well let's just say there is a very VERY vocal minority that hate her despite how popular she is, but this is probably the inverse with Rhea, who ranked low in most popularity rankings despite her significance. And really... She doesn't have any more of a noble reason to obsess over the player character than she does. Which is actually a valid and well established cause for both. So it begs the question why one is treated so differently than the other, maybe it really is all about the difference in popularity?

Edited by SRPG Tryhard

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3 hours ago, SRPG Tryhard said:

It's funny but if Rhea is a bit of Garon in that sense, then you could also say she is like Medeus with her motivation and a Camilla in everything else about her personality and appearance. Yet Medeus is considered evil despite his reasonings to be spiteful because of what happened to the earth dragons and Camilla... Well let's just say there is a very VERY vocal minority that hate her despite how popular she is, but this is probably the inverse with Rhea, who ranked low in most popularity rankings despite her significance. And really... She doesn't have any more of a noble reason to obsess over the player character than she does. Which is actually a valid and well established cause for both. So it begs the question why one is treated so differently than the other, maybe it really is all about the difference in popularity?

I think the key difference is that Rhea's Byleth (or rather, Sothis) obsession isn't really the biggest issue people have with her. It's Rhea's actions (like the ones @Dark Holy Elf and I both brought up), and the impact they have on the plot, that earn her such a negative opinion from certain parts of the fanbase. It doesn't help either that her ideals are politically the opposite of Edelgard's, which tends to make her unpopular among Edelgard fans.

Edited by RainbowMoon

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Being playable is also a huge help for one's popularity in general (go look at any CYL results). Rhea already does exceptionally well on popularity polls by non-playable standards (she's certainly dramatically more popular than Medeus).

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15 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

(she's certainly dramatically more popular than Medeus).

It's hard not to be. 😆 Four games, and he still hasn't gotten what amounts to any significant of development or screentime. The best he has gotten is Xane's "I understand where Medeus is coming from" remark in FE3B2/12, a tiny amount of expose is the best he has. Tokyo Mirage Sessions was no disservice to him, because showing up for the final battle and never appearing beforehand is vintage Medeus.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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