Rate the Unit-Three Houses, Day 28: Catherine

[Punished Dayni]

It's time for the Thunderstrike!

Rules

- Ratings are assumed to be on Hard or Maddening Mode. Also, they should be based on when the unit is first available. (When rating a unit, please specify whether you are rating assuming Hard or Maddening.)

- Votes need some explanation regarding their gameplay performance to be counted (unless they fall into the general parameters of the average rating, but reasoning is still strongly encouraged on those even if you just wanna quote people) — incredibly low scores or high scores without proper justification will not be counted. Don't put in some random text thinking it'd count as justification. Put in at least a little thought and give REAL reasoning.

- Numbers for votes, please - not something like "Marcus/10", etc. Proper Justification will be determined by me and whoever decides to help.

+/- ≤1 point extra regarding personality/appearance is okay, but no more.

- Votes out of 10, or something proportional to it. Makes it easy to calculate, please and thank you~!

-The rating you give to a unit assumes a good build for said unit-nothing among the lines of, "Dedue is 2/10 because he's a bad mage."

-The ranking assumes no grinding of any form, no DLC and minor, (one or two stat boosters per month) use of the Greenhouse.

- Make votes easily visible, please! "[Explanation text]: So, overall, I think X unit is a 7.5/10, with a +1 bias included for being hawt/cute/funny/etc.."

- Every ranking phase ends approximately at 20:00 PST. Do the math for your timezone, please!

-We will ask you to not use the "Not X unit" reason. Because it will be used a lot. I.E, do not say "Linhardt bad because not Lysithea."

-The Black Eagles may be assessed based on their performances in either Silver Snow or Crimson Flower, other than when not applicable.

 

Scores:

Dimtri: 9.14

Byleth: 9.05

Edelgard: 9.00

Claude: 8.977

Felix: 8.625 

Lysithea: 8.472

Petra: 8.34

Leonie: 8.2

Ferdinand: 7.78

Sylvain: 7.66

Ingrid: 7.34

Hilda: 7.31

Seteth: 7.2273

Bernadetta: 7.125

Linhardt: 7.11

Marianne: 6.9769

Mercedes: 6.756

Dorothea: 6.375

Cyril: 6.0454

Dedue: 5.8571

Annette: 5.5375

Hubert: 5.525

Ignatz: 4.88

Caspar: 4.32

Lorenz: 3.8077

Raphael: 3.7273

Ashe: 3.69 (nice)

 

 

Underscore: Black Eagles

Bold: Blue Lions

Itallics: Golden deer

Purple: Faculty

Boldunderscoreditallics: DLC

Average score for Black Eagles: 6.94

Average score for Blue lions: 6.82

Average score for Golden Deer: 6.543

Average score for Faculty: 6.636

 

Day 28: Catherine Rubens Charon

(Seriously how do we black out text now?)

[Sooks]

8.5/10, Catherine is one of the closest things to a Jagen in this game (the other being Shamir, arguably). She joins as a sword master regardless of when you recruit her, and since it usually doesn’t take that long to recruit her (only need Byleth at level 15) you get a sword master early, with somewhat higher bases to go along with that. Along with those class growths she’ll have a whopping 60% in strength and a 75% in speed. Insane. She also joins with the relic thunder brand, and since it’s her relic while using it she has access to foudroyant strike, which is a nice nuke combat art that also gives +30 crit. Thunderbrand itself is also essentially a brave weapon in that whenever you use it you double attack. It’s hit can be a little shaky but if you’re getting 4 attacks every round of combat, which with Catherine’s speed growth and maybe a little help you can do, that doesn’t really matter. It also has 30 uses compared to the other relics’ 20 so have at it. Catherine has all this going for her when she joins, however, what she doesn’t have going for her is her talent list. She has swords and brawling, and a bane in reason. That’s it. No movement types, no authority, just swords and brawling (when she joins with an A in swords and a C in brawling). Although it is worth noting her personal has her take 5 less damage when she is without a battalion. So if you want to make Catherine another class to capitalize on her strength and speed like say, wyvern lord, you will certainly be taking a long time. However, I would somewhat disagree with that notion, as I think her niche is with maximizing sword damage to carry you through the early game, ala swordfaire from sword master. Well, at least carry you through the early game on VW AND BL. Imagine using Catherine on SS maddening, lols. So anyway, for the above she gets an 8.5/10.

1 hour ago, Dayni said:

(Seriously how do we black out text now?)

What do you mean?

[Punished Dayni]

1 minute ago, Sooks said:

What do you mean?

Making the text have a coloured background. I know people can still do it but I'm missing how to do so.

[Jotari]

23 minutes ago, Dayni said:

Making the text have a coloured background. I know people can still do it but I'm missing how to do so.

I don't see the option at a glance, but if you copy and pasted such text from somewhere else you can use that.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Catherine is the closest thing this game has to a jeigan. And jeigans are always good. This writeup considers her only on AM/VW, she's dramatically worse on SS due to her join time.

The good: It's possible to get Catherine to join as early as Chapter 4, but this takes a lot of investment on Maddening (probably enough to be considered favouritism). I'm going to assume you get her in Chapter 5, though, which is easy: Level 9 and C+ support is quite doable. And if you do, she has some really good stats for her level. 17 str, 14 spd, 12 def at Level 9 for bases (even higher with Swordmaster mods). At Level 9, that's equal to Edelgard for str, Leonie for speed, and Dedue for defence! On top of that, she'll join with Swordmaster unlocked, and while this is not a good class at Level 20, it sure as heck is at Level 9, giving her 5 move and Swordfaire for what is surely the highest damage on your team.

Catherine has good offensive growths, too (50% str and 55% spd is Felix-like, but with better bases than Felix meaning she'll always be ahead of him). This allows her to excel at any physical build, and since she has no physical banes, you very much have your pick. Going for flight is my favourite (her post-Darting Blow speed is ridiculous), especially since that's the only time her personal may be relevant, during the early stretch of the game where flying battalions are limited she essentially has a free one that grants +5 def/res (but no gambit or authority growth, so this ain't optimal). But if playing with the DLC you should consider War Cleric as well, since she gets Nimble Combo against things she can't double (which has a 91% chance to proc her crest for +5 damage or more). You could also keep her with swords... having 1320 sword exp in chapter 5 is so high that getting Swordfaire2 is actually vaguely reasonable for her, which gives her some mean Atk indeed.

The less good: While joining in chapter 5 (or even potentially 4) is certainly better than joining later, it's still worse than joining in chapter 1, and Catherine suffers a bit from needing to correct her skill growth. No build wants both swords and brawling, so whichever one you end up ignoring is more or less 3 chapters of training exp down the drain. She doesn't have any boons outside those two, so without DLC all the best builds for her involve training entirely neutral skills, which isn't great. Fortunately since she joins before the marathon Miklan map but right after unlocking the class exp+1 saint statue, it's pretty easy to throw her into a beginner class so she can still get a stat+2 and a repositioning art, unlike everyone who joins after her.

Her 4+25% charm is rough, as well, the one real blight on an otherwise ridiculous stat build. She's a good choice for utility gambits, and shaky choice for a dodgetank despite her speed and sword prowess.

Overall, Catherine is likely your best PC on join (easily so if you leave her in swordmaster), and while she undoubtedly falls off, she's still highly competitive with strong combat units like Felix and Leonie right up to the very end of the game, beating them very clearly in strength, speed, or both. As such it's hard to say she's not at least as good as the best students. Maybe it's easiest to compare her to FByleth: Catherine has a stronger start and is only mildly worse by the end (mostly the charm... she still wins str/spd). A good place to be. I was initially thinking 8 but honestly, 8.5/10 seems more appropriate (Maddening).

[Barren]

So now we get to one of the strongest knights for the Church of Seiros Catherine. The wielder of Thunderbrand has a reputation of charging in recklessly and fighting head on to now being one of the most disciplined warriors. She does go on and on about "Lady Rhea this and Lady Rhea that". But this post is more about what she brings to the battle field. This is assuming maddening mode and no dlc. Also worth noting that she is not available on Black Eagles and if you go onto the Crimson Flower route she can not be recruited at all. She is available on Silver Snow but far less developed than what she would be on the other two routes.

Catherine is your game's Swordmaster. Some call her the "Jaegan" in this game considering that she is an advanced class at such a low level. You can recruit her as early as chapter 4 but can't be deployed until chapter 5. You if are looking to recruit her you would have to be at least level 15. On hard and maddening it is rather difficult to get to that point early. So what you can do is share a meal with her that she will enjoy then give her a gift she loves. This would lower the level require from 15 to 12 as you'll reach C support rank. You're not done yet, you'll have to share at least two more meals she likes and give her another gift she'll love and then you'll get her support up to C+ rank. When you reach that point, you're level would only have to be 9. That's more manageable than if you were to try to recruit her the long way. But is she worth these activity points just to recruit her? In short yes. Catherine will no doubt help take the pressure off of your time in maddening early on.

Catherine comes with Thunderbrand, a strong hero's relic which functions like a brave sword. If she is fast enough which is likely at least in part 1, she'll attack 4 times in a row. Nothing would survive a round against her with Thunderbrand. Of course unless you have Umbra Steel to spare to repair it, you don't want to spam Thunderbrand. Even without Thunderbrand she can still dish out good damage. Her stats are very good. Assuming you get her by chapter 5, she starts with 19 strength with a 60% growth thanks to the class bonus and 18 speed with a 75% growth, along with 13 dex with a 40% growth. These stats are notably higher than most of your students at that point. She is also quite bulky with 35 HP, 13 defense and 8 resistance. But there's more. Her personal ability Fighting Spirit enables her to take 5 less points of damage as long as she doesn't have a battalion equipped or if it's endurance is reduced to 0. This effectively makes her sturdy unit this early in the game. She can take a hit as well as dish it out. Of course if you're planning on user her in part 2, power creep will give her a hard time due to much higher stats and she might not be able to keep up. Though it's not the end of the world for her as you can always invest her into other classes to make her viable.

She already has all of her sword combat arts since her Sword rank is at A. She comes with Finesse Blade which is boosted based off her dex stat, Bane of Monsters which is situational, and since she bears the crest of Charon, she can use Foudroyant Strike with her Thunderbrand. This special combat art deals extra damage to Heavy Armored enemies as well as Dragons with a +6 might, +30 hit, and crit+30. That's a really strong attack you want to preserve for tough bosses. Catherine also comes with a brawl rank of C. Nimble Combo grants her a double attack with +4 might and +20 avoid/crit avoid which can be good in case you need to her have act as a dodge tank for player phase. At rank A she learns Bombard which grants +3 might but crit +10 so she might need to score a KO if you want to work on her gauntlets that much. Her only bane is reason but that's okay because you don't want her to be Mortal Savant anyways. And also, for someone whose nick name is "Thunderstrike Cassandra", she doesn't have any lightning based spells. She gets Fire at rank D, Bolganone at rank C then Ragnarok at rank A. Her faith spell list isn't much better either. She only gets Recover at rank C.

If you're planning on using Catherine, you could work on her axe and bow rank rank so you can get her to Brigand and Archer respectively. Death Blow will make her hit even harder and Hit +20 will help her out with some hit rate issues. You can even work on her lance and flying rank if you want her to be a Pegasus Knight and get Darting Blow. She can go back to Mercenary if you want Vantage. If you want to keep her as a Swordmaster I suppose you could work on her riding to gain movement +1 but that takes forever. She could also go Assassin. She'll lose out on some power but in exchange she'll high higher move and can move through forests and thickets without any issues. If you're willing to invest more into her, she can go Falcon Knight. Sure she'll lose swordfaire but 8 move, avoid +10 and learning Alert Stance gives her a lot of avoid. 

Overall, on Blue Lions and Golden Deer, she is a 8.5/10 unit. However on Silver Snow, even if you did want to use her she would be lacking in areas where your other students are well developed at this point. She would be then a 7/10. So that averages out to 8/10. She is overpowered in part 1 and tends to struggle in part 2 but you still get to keep Thunderbrand regardless so it's a two for the price of one kind of deal. So yea, recruit her when you can.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Barren

[DriftingWaterBottle]

6.5 / 10 on Hard AM/VW

The good:

• Very good base Str & Spd and class as a Ch4 & 5 recruit, although some planning around her support level might be needed.
• Good Str & Spd growth for a melee unit.
• Major crest of Charon with high activation rate to raise Mt with combat arts, and no penalty using relics.
• Personal ability that gives more bulk when not equipping a battalion, situationally useful in early game.
• Joins with Sword A and Axebreaker, can bait Axe enemies relatively safely in early game if needed. Bane of Monsters is also situationally useful for monsters.
• Battalion Vantage at Authority C, situationally useful if stacking Crit.
• Up to +3 Mt with Shamir

The mixed:

• Learns interesting Brawling Combat Arts - Nimbo Combo and Bombard, which sync well with her Crest and she has proficiency and good base rank (at least C) in Brawling, but the only optimal Brawling class available for female units is in DLC, which limits her potential in base game.

The not-so-good:

• No Axe, Bow, Lance or Flying base rank when joining, thus needs to catch up for Brigand, Archer or Pegasus certification compared to in-house members.
• No proficiency in skills that help to access Canto classes or other strong end game classes, although Swordmaster or Assassin are still pretty ok on Hard.

[LoneStar]

Catherine is a pretty strong unit you can get about half way through part 1, technically sooner. She comes in an advanced class so her stats will be pretty high. She grants extra might from supporting with Shamir. Her relic Thunderbrand is a 13 night Brave Sword, so it’s pretty strong the only thing is it’s 70 base hit which is pretty shaky.

The Major crest of Charon that she has grants her a 40% chance of boosting a combat art’a damage by 5 which is pretty nice. Astra kind of sucks in this game, but she’s technically the best user of it. Bombard and Nimble Combo are nice Brave combat arts that will be more accurate than Thunderbrand. I’m not too sure about Foudroyant Strike, it doesn’t really one shot armors in Maddening and for frail enemies Gauntlets do fine, it can still get a solid hit off with +30 crit. 

For classes Swordmaster is fine, it’s best at enemy phasing IMO, and she’ll be fast enough to not get doubled by most things. Falcon Knight or Wyvern Rider can let her be more robust, her high Spd and Str lets her do well in these classes. She doesn’t have any strengths in the required skills, so it will take a good amount of focus to get her into them. She’s another female unit that would like War Master, but the DLC War Cleric can do something I guess. 

My Rating: 8.3/10. A pretty strong unit that you can get decently early, and can carry her weight through the rest of the game.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

Catherine, assessed on AM Maddening.

The Bad

Like all of the Church units, Catherine doesn't join you right away. The earliest she can come into your army is chapter 4. She requires a level 15 Byleth to recruit, but this level requirement can be relaxed somewhat by building a support with her. Still, I think getting her in chapter 5 or 6 is more practical. Either way, she's not around for chapter 2. And she won't be helping you at Gronder Field, either, so don't rely too heavily on her.

Looking at her stats, while her bases are pretty good for her join time (assuming chapter 4, level 7), her growths are... lacking... in a few areas. Note that the stats and growths I list are buffed, somewhat, by her starting class of Swordmaster. Her Magic (8+0.25x) dissuades her from any magical builds, while her Resistance (8+0.15x) leaves her vulnerable to opposing spells. Her Luck (10+0.30x) doesn't quite keep up, while her Charm (6+0.30x) leaves her unlikely to impress with offensive gambits.

Returning to magic, her sole bane area is that of Reason. This is associated with a fairly boring black magic list, made up of just the standard fire spells. And while she isn't weak in Faith, her white magic list is bog-standard. So while you can take Catherine down the path of magic, or aim for Mortal Savant, there's little incentive to do so.

Finally, while her personal ability isn't terrible, it's like Felix's - in that, if she's given a batallion, she basically has no personal anymore. And unlike AM Felix, Catherine comes at a time when more batallions are becoming available, with a benefit that may outstrip +5 on both sides of bulk.

The Good

Thunderstrike Cassandra comes with some good stats to her name, as well. Her HP (33+0.75x) is very good, and while her Defense (13+0.30x) may not keep up, she has good physical bulk for the time being. Her Strength (19+0.60x) lets her hit hard from the get-go, and continue to do so. And her Speed (18+0.75x) is among the best in the game, letting her double a decent set of enemies. Finally her Dexterity (13+0.40x) is... well, serviceable. Swords and Gauntlets are accurate enough to generally hit.

Speaking of which, her proficiencies, and skill ranks. Catherine joins with A Swords, which is frankly absurd at this point in the game. You can train nobody else in swords, and you'll still have someone who can use the Sword of Moralta, the Sword of Zoltan, the Brave Sword, etc. And she comes with Prowess Level 4, helping her hit and avoid with a sword in hand. Her other boon is in Gauntlets (C), which is... okay? She can use them on the side, or with her combat arts, as a readily-available brave option. There's an argument, though, that Catherine would prefer to be a male unit - she would have an easy road to, and solid performance in, Grappler. Her one other rank above E is Authority, which she joins with D in. Which is... okay, she'll have her pick of batallions at this point in the game.

As far as classes go, there are a few way to run Catherine. Keep her in Swordmaster, and she'll perform well in the pre-skip, but miss out on good mastery skills. You can "demote" her to Myrmidon or Fighter, for the skills they offer - and with some rank training, Archer and Brigand are options. This lowers her combat ability in the short-term, but can garner her some crucial skills to keep up in the lategame. Assassin may be her ideal endgame class, with better mobility than Swordmaster. Or, with some effort, she can go Pegasus Knight, and then Falcon Knight, either wielding Swords or Lances. Finally, Mortal Savant is technically an option, but again, her magical potential is very limited.

As combat arts go, Catherine has some good ones. Finesse Blade and Bane-of-Monsters are just okay, but having them from her time of joining is certainly welcome. And with Gauntlets, Catherine can use brave arts like Nimble Combo or Bombard to maintain the offensive pressure. She does get one more art, but it's exclusive to Thunderbrand. Foudroyant Strike makes up for the sword's low Hit rate, adds sizable crit, and imparts effectiveness against Armor and Dragon enemies. Still, the art gives up on Thunderbrand's brave effect, so its utility is niche at best. Anyway, the art comes from the Major Crest of Charon, which provides a 70% chance of a damage boost with combat arts. This is welcome with Foudroyant Strike, but also with the aforementioned gauntlet arts.

The Verdict

On AM and VW, Catherine is great from the moment she joins. She's great in terms of speed and physical offense, and she has solid bulk. Being in an Advanced class, and having a weapon A-rank, is unheard-of at this point in the game. She has very cool combat arts, and a Crrst to her name. Still, her availability isn't perfect, her magical potential is limited at best, and she has no classes to exploit her Gauntlet boon with. You might choose to drop her by the post-skip, depending on whether she earned good masteries. Regardless, Catherine comes in strong at a crucial time. All things told, I'm assessing her as a 7 out of 10.

[Benice]

5 hours ago, Dayni said:

Seriously how do we black out text now

Next to the font size, there's an A with a line beneath it. You click on it, and it gives you colors!

At least, that's how it is for me. Maybe it's not supposed to work like that.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Benice

[SumG]

Catherine is a good, if narrow, unit.  Her value can also change significantly depending the on the route that's being played.  But even on Maddening, she is a completely viable character.

Let's start with the good.  Regardless of when she is recruited, she starts in the Swordmaster class.  On SS, that's not particularly impressive as she can't be recruited until after you turn down Edelgard in Chapter 12, when most of your units should be in Advanced classes already.  But on VW and AM, you have the potential to recruit Catherine much earlier, even as soon as Chapter 6-7, and at level much lower than 20, when you could normally get into those classes.  If recruited early, Catherine will have amazing base stats due to utilizing the base stats of the Swordmaster class.  She will also have access to the Swordmaster class itself, which provides additional huge stat bonuses.  If recruited early, Catherine can make your life much easier in the back half of Part 1 until other units catch up to her level.

Catherine's stat growths are also pretty impressive.  50% strength and 55% speed are on the short list for best combination for a melee fighter in the game, though not in the top spot.  Those stat growths are enough to keep her competitive with enemies through the rest of the game if she sticks to faster classes.  She joins with her Hero's Relic, which is OK due to it's brave effect, but not amazing due to its low accuracy.  She's also a woman, and as such can have access to Darting Blow if desired, which can make things easier in the midgame.

In the downside category there are few points.  Catherine's boons are not particularly great.  She only gets swords, which would likely keep her footlocked, and gauntlets, which really don't work for female units.  It's possible to grind enough to into a more versatile class, but I'm inclined to think it isn't worth the effort.  And if that's the case, the only viable classes available to Catherine are either Swordmaster or Assassin.  Catherine's crest is OK in itself, raising the Mt of Combat Arts, but unfortunately Catherine doesn't get many particularly useful Combat Arts to use, squandering the crest.  And her personal ability is effectively worthless, since you always want a battalion equipped.  And obviously, on CR she is not recruitable, so she is a complete zero on one route.

On SS, I'd say she's about 7.5/10.  On VW and AM, I'd bump her up a bit to an 8/10.  So on balance, I'll get her an 8/10.

 

 

 

[L3xandr3]

Cyril if he was a woman in her mid-twenties. And replace ‘Work, work, work’ with ’Fight, fight, fight’.

     Skill Levels:      Like Cyril, Catherine’s Stats vary depending on the route. Boon in Sword and Brawl, Bane in Reason. A Swords and D Authority. In SS She has B Brawling, in the others she has C Brawling. (A Swords means she can use the Sword of Zoltan at base. You get one from Felix-Dimitri B support. Oi)

     Abilities:     Fighting Spirit is… Just… Why? She should always have a Battalion and unlike Felix’s Lone Wolf, the stat boost isn’t worth it.  Battalion Vantage (C) may be of use, given Swordmaster’s innate Crit.

     Arts:     Bane of Monsters bad. Finesse Blade is Ok. Both Nimble Combo and Bombard? Uh, sure? It’s good, but why both?

     Stats:     Catherine’s Bases are great, and her Growths are a little worse than Felix’s but that still means she’s strong. 50% HP and Strength, 25% Magic and Charm, 40% Dex, 55% Speed, 30% Luck and Defense.

          SS: Level 21, 46 HP, 24 Strength, 10 Magic, 17 Dex, 28 Speed, 12 Luck, 17 Defense, 8 Res, and 10 Charm.

(This next bit is a bit misleading, given that these are her stats at Lv 7(!), when you are Lv 15(!!), and recruit her in Chapter 4(!!!). It can be lowered, yes, but it’s not that great an idea until Chapter 5)

          Other: 33 HP, 19 Strength, 8 Magic, 13 Dex, 18 Speed, 10 Luck, 13 Defense, 8 Res, and 6 charm.

        Her SS stats are decent. AM and VW, though? 19 Strength and 18 Speed by Chapter 4? Solid is an understatement. Her other stats are Ok (Barely anyone has good Charm when it comes to Maddening).

     Classes:     Aside from grabbing some Masteries, there is no need to change from Swordmaster, unless you want the Assassin’s mobility.

          The Verdict

Similar to Felix. Comparably powerful. But she lacks several of his options. Thunderbrand is a pretty good Relic, and Foudroyant Strike is pretty damn strong. Catherine is easily worth 8/10.

[RaIsMyPet]

Not voting as I never seriously used Catherine. But one thing needs to be pointed out: Catherine’s lv. 7 stat is, although amazing, not that amazing in long term, because a lot of stats actually come from the Swordmaster modifier. Her true stat at lv. 7 is 17 Str, which is basically on par with Edel/Dimitri, and 14 Spd, basically on par with Petra, and 1 point ahead of recruited Felix.

Of course none of them have the combination of Str/Spd, and Swordmaster growth will continue to widen the gap for a little while, even if it’s just like 2 points in the end. I used to wonder if Catherine is 4 Spd ahead of Petra from the beginning and grows faster for a while, why can’t she keep up with enemy speedy units like falcons to the end, since Petra is usually very close to enemy heroes. Turns out she isn’t 4 Spd ahead.

I think this kind of explains why Catherine, aside from class choices, isn’t especially strong in the long term.

Edited November 7, 2020 by RaIsMyPet

[Jotari]

7 hours ago, Benice said:

Next to the font size, there's an A with a line beneath it. You click on it, and it gives you colors!

At least, that's how it is for me. Maybe it's not supposed to work like that.

That's text colour more so than background colour.

[Dark Holy Elf]

7 hours ago, RaIsMyPet said:

Her true stat at lv. 7 is 17 Str, which is basically on par with Edel/Dimitri, and 14 Spd, basically on par with Petra

I'm a bit confused. You say this like it's not incredibly good; those are the strongest and fastest characters in the game, respectively, and 50/55 growth sustains those just fine. To reiterate an earlier point, she beats Felix in both stats forever. Like you can quibble with some of her other stats (and also quibble with her needing more skill work than other PCs due to joining a little later without boons in good areas), but her str/spd are always outstanding, even long-term.

Separately, I'm a little surprised to see praise for Froudoyant Strike; it's really weak by relic combat art standards. Since it does substantially less damage than a basic hit due to losing the brave effect, it's really only good for a high-accuracy shot, but Thunderbrand isn't the weapon to use for that! Consider that Froudoyant Strike has 19 mt, 100 hit. But anyone else can use Wrath Strike from a Silver Sword+ for 18 mt, 100 hit (i.e. nearly equal if your goal is to deliver a high-hit killing blow), Iron+ or Grounder can achieve higher hit still at the cost of power. 19 might is pretty underwhelming when several relic combat arts have effective mights in the 30's. Froudoyant Strike does have more crit, but if you can't kill and you're looking for crit, you want to have more than one shot at it, so you'll probably have better luck with just attacking with Thunderbrand itself (especially if you can quad).

[Punished Dayni]

16 hours ago, Benice said:

Next to the font size, there's an A with a line beneath it. You click on it, and it gives you colors!

At least, that's how it is for me. Maybe it's not supposed to work like that.

I can't change text backgrounds with it, hence why I asked.

Here's another Rhea devotee. Joy.

Catherine cuts to the chase:

Spoiler

Her bases and growths really make certain units look awful. 19+50% Str is definitely good, while her 20+55% Spd is also very good and more than solid for her to work off of and her HP should be solid at 37+50%. Her 13+30% Def isn't stellar but she should be able to take a hit or two, while her Dex should be alright at 13+40% I always feel like it's not quite there. However, 8+25% Mag, 8+20% Res and 7+25% Cha should warn you off worrying about her gambits or going for magic-led builds.

Her Strengths and Weaknesses are short. Strengths in Swords and Brawling probably would have been better if she could get Grappler or WM. Weakness in Reason is unfortunate for those who want to use magic on her for some stupid reason.

Her magic list is simple. Reason gives Fire, Bolganone and Ragnarok, which is better than some others. Faith gives H + N and Recover, which isn't.

Her personal, Fighting Spirit, gives her +5 damage reduction when she has no battalion/battalion endurance is 0. This is pretty nice to have to hand actually, it can help with longer slugfests and give her something to fall back on. Her Major Charon crest gives her a 70% chance to get +5 might with combat arts, which is very much a Catherine thing based off Chapter 3. Course, she also has the best access to Thunderbrand and Foudroyant Strike, which can be nice to attack armours at +12 might (normally 6) and has Hit and Crit +30.

Her Combat Arts are alright enough. Swords gives her Bane of Monsters (Situational again) and Finesse Blade (I kinda wish it wasn't off her Dex, but we get what we get.), while Brawling gives her Nimble Combo (Gives her +20 avoid and doubles with +4 might) and Bombard (gives her +10 crit and doubles with +3 might), making me really sad for Raphael who got no doubling combos.

I used her Chapter 6 bases here, because I'm a lazy bitch who'd recruit her at the same time as Shamir. However, you can get her in Chapter 4 at the earliest and suddenly her 19 Str and 18 Spd are outpacing everything at a serious clip (though you can't use her in the Chapter 4 map, but in Chapter 5 she has the same stats). As a result Catherine is the one unit that makes grinding Byleth up really far ahead worth it for the early recruitment, It's pretty realistic to have her at C which will bring the level down to 12 (C+ might be doable for those in Maddening who would be less likely to get to 12) She has an issue in that with SS she can't come in before Chapter 12, which hurts her viability a fair bit and makes training her for, say, FK, rougher than it needed to be.

How did I find her?

Spoiler

In VW, I actually bothered with trying MS Catherine, which was a fun as part of the multiple Mortal Savants I want for. However, stat wise she did get hurt on her Mag (33), but she was strong for sure on 41 Str, pretty low Dex of 27, pretty alright Mag for not focusing on it at 25 and stupidly high 64 HP. She got B Reason, B+ Brawl and Authority and A+ Swords, it was fine but nothing special. Brawling's always nice regardless.

In CF, she died to Shamir. Because of course she did.

In AM, I chose to not use her after Part 1. Swordmaster Catherine was still useful regardless.

In SS, I tried FK Catherine and it was a fantastic decision. Unfortunately she was recruited in Chapter 12 and it took ages to unlock it so she was a Pegasus Knight for ages. I definitely feel like I limited her potential as a result and she was . Stat wise, she was speedy enough at 43 Spd, still had some power behind her at 37 Str and her bulk might not have been the best but her HP was still pretty good.

In Maddening I only used her for her paralogue and she saw next to no combat in my clear. She was fine and probably would have been better than Cyril, but hush.

See, you can get Catherine very early and make her a central part of your army and even in SS you can make her work. I'm going to rate her 7/10, partly due to being screwed out of SS and also because the super early recruiting needs you to put a lot of pull off.

Edited November 8, 2020 by Dayni

[RaIsMyPet]

8 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'm a bit confused. You say this like it's not incredibly good; those are the strongest and fastest characters in the game, respectively, and 50/55 growth sustains those just fine. To reiterate an earlier point, she beats Felix in both stats forever. Like you can quibble with some of her other stats (and also quibble with her needing more skill work than other PCs due to joining a little later without boons in good areas), but her str/spd are always outstanding, even long-term.

Separately, I'm a little surprised to see praise for Froudoyant Strike; it's really weak by relic combat art standards. Since it does substantially less damage than a basic hit due to losing the brave effect, it's really only good for a high-accuracy shot, but Thunderbrand isn't the weapon to use for that! Consider that Froudoyant Strike has 19 mt, 100 hit. But anyone else can use Wrath Strike from a Silver Sword+ for 18 mt, 100 hit (i.e. nearly equal if your goal is to deliver a high-hit killing blow), Iron+ or Grounder can achieve higher hit still at the cost of power. 19 might is pretty underwhelming when several relic combat arts have effective mights in the 30's. Froudoyant Strike does have more crit, but if you can't kill and you're looking for crit, you want to have more than one shot at it, so you'll probably have better luck with just attacking with Thunderbrand itself (especially if you can quad).

For one, don’t speculate my intention as if I’m hostile to a unit. I don’t appreciate that.

Second, I don’t value stats that much in the long run because they don’t salvage you from being overrun by enemies. I value boons/CA/abilities and more importantly their possible combinations much more. If I get a good combination, the game gets massively easier than having more stats. I really don’t care certain unit has 5 more Str or 5 fewer, because they are not that decisive in the long run. The only place stats are decisive is very early game. If a unit doesn’t have more tools, they fall off, or become “just good”, not great. Frankly, during my play through I never paid much attention to stats, and didn’t realize my Felix got screwed and slower than even Annette, or Sylvain’s str is at Ashe level, for some time. Eventually that showed up for certain matchups. But their builds carry them, easily, and those “occasion” was very rare.

Edited November 8, 2020 by RaIsMyPet

[Jotari]

48 minutes ago, RaIsMyPet said:

For one, don’t speculate my intention as if I’m hostile to a unit. I don’t appreciate that.

Second, I don’t value stats that much in the long run because they don’t salvage you from being overrun by enemies. I value boons/CA/abilities and more importantly their possible combinations much more. If I get a good combination, the game gets massively easier than having more stats. I really don’t care certain unit has 5 more Str or 5 fewer, because they are not that decisive in the long run. The only place stats are decisive is very early game. If a unit doesn’t have more tools, they fall off, or become “just good”, not great. Frankly, during my play through I never paid much attention to stats, and didn’t realize my Felix got screwed and slower than even Annette, or Sylvain’s str is at Ashe level, for some time. Eventually that showed up for certain matchups. But their builds carry them, easily, and those “occasion” was very rare.

So this then

9 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'm a bit confused. You say this like it's not incredibly good; those are the strongest and fastest characters in the game, respectively, and 50/55 growth sustains those just fine. To reiterate an earlier point, she beats Felix in both stats forever. Like you can quibble with some of her other stats (and also quibble with her needing more skill work than other PCs due to joining a little later without boons in good areas), but her str/spd are always outstanding, even long-term.

Separately, I'm a little surprised to see praise for Froudoyant Strike; it's really weak by relic combat art standards. Since it does substantially less damage than a basic hit due to losing the brave effect, it's really only good for a high-accuracy shot, but Thunderbrand isn't the weapon to use for that! Consider that Froudoyant Strike has 19 mt, 100 hit. But anyone else can use Wrath Strike from a Silver Sword+ for 18 mt, 100 hit (i.e. nearly equal if your goal is to deliver a high-hit killing blow), Iron+ or Grounder can achieve higher hit still at the cost of power. 19 might is pretty underwhelming when several relic combat arts have effective mights in the 30's. Froudoyant Strike does have more crit, but if you can't kill and you're looking for crit, you want to have more than one shot at it, so you'll probably have better luck with just attacking with Thunderbrand itself (especially if you can quad).

[Dark Holy Elf]

6 hours ago, RaIsMyPet said:

Second, I don’t value stats that much in the long run because they don’t salvage you from being overrun by enemies.

Your previous post was 100% about her stats, including in the long run. We can debate how much they matter, but you obviously thought they mattered enough to make that post.

EDIT: Regarding your other point, it was not trying to speculate about your intention. If I feel you're being unfair to a unit, I'll try to point out flaws in your argument. In this case I don't think you were being especially unfair, just... I was a bit confused by a post which seemed primarily framed as "Catherine's stats ain't that great" but comparing her to the strongest/fastest characters in the game.

Edited November 8, 2020 by Dark Holy Elf

[RaIsMyPet]

22 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Your previous post was 100% about her stats, including in the long run. We can debate how much they matter, but you obviously thought they mattered enough to make that post.

EDIT: Regarding your other point, it was not trying to speculate about your intention. If I feel you're being unfair to a unit, I'll try to point out flaws in your argument. In this case I don't think you were being especially unfair, just... I was a bit confused by a post which seemed primarily framed as "Catherine's stats ain't that great" but comparing her to the strongest/fastest characters in the game.

Catherine was the only hope of being great with only stats, but I was disappointed at the end. I was expressing my disappointment and thought process leading to the conclusion: stats doesn’t matter that much because even Catherine can’t dominate enemies purely by stats.

[Dark Holy Elf]

6 hours ago, RaIsMyPet said:

Catherine was the only hope of being great with only stats, but I was disappointed at the end. I was expressing my disappointment and thought process leading to the conclusion: stats doesn’t matter that much because even Catherine can’t dominate enemies purely by stats.

Depends on your definition of dominate, I guess. Catherine just got the highest score of any staff member and she got it almost entirely due to her high stats which result in her having some of the best killing power in the game, so obviously a lot of people found her very effective based purely because of them. I certainly did.