Tier Lists and 'Availability': What do?

[Jotari]

On 11/18/2020 at 10:19 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Read this article by yours truly:

Ping interpreted a tier list as a ranking of units based on how much you would like to draft them, which is a reasonable definition. I think differences over the importance of availability arise from people disagreeing on what exactly a tier list is supposed to rank and then not acknowledging that fact.

I'd rate Athos higher than Karel though because while Karel has decent stats, the end game of Binding Blade is pretty piss easy so he's not going to be outperforming any of the units you've actually trained throughout the game. Blazing Blade endgame isn't super difficult either, but Athos is going to be able to contribute more due to outright being better than some of the units you'll have trained all game and having staff and siege magic utility. So I do think a consideration of "What are the toughest parts of the game and which units help you get through it the most" would need to be kept in mind. And with that in mind, by and large early game Fire Emblem is usually way harder than late game Fire Emblem. So I can see why people trend to judge things as if availability is a net gain. Consequentially though, do people rank Galzus and Sety as lot tier in Thracia 776 (genuine question, I don't hang out on Fire Emblem tier lists much)? Because unlike most Gotohs I do find them able to contribute a lot to the end game, which might have more to do with Thracia's end game being reasonable difficult (probably not as difficult as Early game Manster, which is why I reckon Asvel would be ranked higher than them) than them just being objectively good units.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Jotari

[Shadow Mir]

I am liable to hold availability against an early joining character if they're bad enough. Like Donnel, for example. While he joins early, the problem, crappy stats aside, is that the first few chapters after his joining are ones where his use is discouraged, which makes the already hard task of catching him up even harder (chapter 4 only gives you 6 unit slots, and wyverns start making appearances after).

Edited November 20, 2020 by Shadow Mir

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 11/19/2020 at 8:47 AM, Fabulously Olivier said:

Paradoxically, for example, I'd say that Illyana's high availability in RD makes her a worse unit. The DB chapters are by far the hardest parts of the game, and while she's there to help them at the beginning, she leaves to join the GM who do NOT need the help. Meaning that any experience and items given to her are taken from the most vulnerable team and given to the least.

For what it's worth, I think the ability to transport skills, money bombs, and leftover coins for forging  to the Greil Mercenaries is a pretty good one. Like, I'm gonna get a lot more out of "Pass" or "Celerity" in 9 GM maps than in 3 DB maps.

Still, the question of how good an Ilyana who stays behind would be is an interesting one. If she promotes to Thunder Sage, she can use Fire magic. Forge her a Fire tome, and she now has a pretty good weapon against beast laguz in III-6 and III-13. She still can't take a hit, but I imagine the extra chip would be appreciated. She probably won't gain enough EXP to be viable in part IV, much less the Tower, but what else is new?

[ping]

11 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Still, the question of how good an Ilyana who stays behind would be is an interesting one. If she promotes to Thunder Sage, she can use Fire magic. Forge her a Fire tome, and she now has a pretty good weapon against beast laguz in III-6 and III-13. She still can't take a hit, but I imagine the extra chip would be appreciated. She probably won't gain enough EXP to be viable in part IV, much less the Tower, but what else is new?

She could maybe be compared to an early-promoted Leonardo. Not as powerful, because Beastfoe+Crossbow is stupid strong, but much less investment because you don't need to feed her XP and she can deal effective damage without Beastfoe (which also means that Nolan can do the Crossbow thing).

All mages (except maybe Calill because she can use Rexflame without being slowed down) kinda suck in the tower because Arch Sage caps aren't too hot, so Ilyana wouldn't really stand out negatively with that.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Well this is a treat. Mekkah just made a video all about availability,

He even addresses the Athos and Rebecca examples from the OP, as well as other cases brought up in this thread in other posts. He talks about his own philosophy in rating units and why he factors in availability. And he also differentiates a tier list from a character recommendation guide, and how you run into issues if you try to construct both at once.

I like that he still treats availability as an open question however, because he notices that Fire Emblem is probably the only game series in which people make tier lists yet factor in availability. I'm surprised I didn't make note of that myself in the OP because I know I made that observation at least once before. The only theoretical comparison I could think of was rating the weapons in action survival games or shooters where the player's selection is constantly expanding yet they can't carry everything at once due to a limited inventory. Like arguing the Handgun versus the Magnum in Resident Evil 1. The magnum can't be gotten until you're at least halfway through the game, while the handgun is there from the start. The handgun is typically sufficient for killing enemies at low risk, especially if the player is well informed about enemy placements. At least until hunters show up who are not phased by the pistol, but the magnum is fantastic at killing everything and the player probably knows where all the ammo placements are for it. I would compromise and say both are B tier. While the grenade launcher and shotgun are at A for being very powerful with excellent availability, and the stupid knife is C. There's your RE1 weapons tier list that nobody asked for.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

2 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

Well this is a treat. Mekkah just made a video all about availability,

Just watched that one! It came across as though he was inspired by this thread, but more likely, it was just convenient timing.

Anyway, I agree with his general point of treating availability as a factor. Although, I tend to view tier lists as being more about "contribution" than "viability". That said, a "should you recruit/deploy/invest in?" tierlist is a neat concept, at least.

[joevar]

im really late to realization but 3 houses actually mitigated some of availability problem, kind of... because afaik no one joins you anymore (join for the first time, not those unit who disappear and then re-join later) when you reach 3/4 part of the game, let alone join one chapter before the last..

 

[Jotari]

8 hours ago, joevar said:

im really late to realization but 3 houses actually mitigated some of availability problem, kind of... because afaik no one joins you anymore (join for the first time, not those unit who disappear and then re-join later) when you reach 3/4 part of the game, let alone join one chapter before the last..

 

And that's something people complain about. And not unwarrantedly imo.

[joevar]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

And that's something people complain about. And not unwarrantedly imo.

oh, did i forgot to mention, i actually hated it too? 1 or 2 villagers is enough, but now 90% of it are villagers-type.. ugh
already point some problem with it in another thread. to add it up, 3 houses feel to me reward casual player more than classic player with join-early mini-cast roster.

thats why i said kind of, not really solved it. why would it be solved anyway

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Talking about availability in Three Houses feels more multi-dimensional than your average fire emblem. Recruited characters join at an appropriate level with higher than their average stats, but are far behind on skill exp and join with no class masteries. And that discrepancy of combat exp vs skill exp/class masteries just widens the longer you wait to recruit them. The only static recruited characters are Flayn, Seteth and Gilbert, as they join your party no earlier or later than a specific point of the game and have constant skill ranks and base stats to judge them by. 

And then there's the headache of trying to rate certain characterswhen their availability depends heavily on that route such as Catherine, Hilda, Cyril, Lorenz, etc. "just do a route-specific list" sure, but how often do you see people specify a route before saying "______ sucks"? You don't. It quickly devolves into talking about two different versions of the character.

[joevar]

even talking the same route can differ greatly due to "villagers" nature i belive

in short, it sucks?

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

3 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

Talking about availability in Three Houses feels more multi-dimensional than your average fire emblem. Recruited characters join at an appropriate level with higher than their average stats, but are far behind on skill exp and join with no class masteries. And that discrepancy of combat exp vs skill exp/class masteries just widens the longer you wait to recruit them. The only static recruited characters are Flayn, Seteth and Gilbert, as they join your party no earlier or later than a specific point of the game and have constant skill ranks and base stats to judge them by. 

Pedantic, but Jeritza is also a time-specific recruitment. As are Catherine and Cyril... on SS. Interestingly, Shamir auto-joins around the same time, even though you can pick her up earlier. Making her the only unit, aside from Byleth, who is not only recruitable on every route, but forced on at least one.

But yeah, it's an interesting system, making the player work for their recruits - and then leaving the timing, and thereby the unit's stats and skill ranks, at the player's discretion. I think it works for the game as it's set up, given the monastery setting and the emphasis on custom-building your units. But missing out on late-joiner archetypes (like a "Gotoh", or an "Est") is kind of a bummer - as is the absence of "talk to them on the battlefield to recruit them". Admittedly, that last one sorta kinda happens, but only for a handful of units (Ashe, Lorenz, Lysithea) post-skip. And only after (not really) killing them in battle.

[joevar]

if anything, one thing that IS could not hurt to implement again is how you recruit lysithea in part 2. theres hint she would like to change sides, but she already choose that side first  (even tho the event itself is dumb considering you potentially have already recruit her before) so might as well fight you first, then defeated before joining, which some people see can it as her taken as POW (thus lessening the guilt of betraying?)

some FE games just dont care to give you hint at all if a unit with portrait could be recruited and how

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

Talking about availability in Three Houses feels more multi-dimensional than your average fire emblem. Recruited characters join at an appropriate level with higher than their average stats, but are far behind on skill exp and join with no class masteries. And that discrepancy of combat exp vs skill exp/class masteries just widens the longer you wait to recruit them. The only static recruited characters are Flayn, Seteth and Gilbert, as they join your party no earlier or later than a specific point of the game and have constant skill ranks and base stats to judge them by. 

And then there's the headache of trying to rate certain characterswhen their availability depends heavily on that route such as Catherine, Hilda, Cyril, Lorenz, etc. "just do a route-specific list" sure, but how often do you see people specify a route before saying "______ sucks"? You don't. It quickly devolves into talking about two different versions of the character.

That's why its grest being enlightened like me. Which means abusing New Game+ so everyone has top tier skills from the start.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Pedantic, but Jeritza is also a time-specific recruitment. As are Catherine and Cyril... on SS. Interestingly, Shamir auto-joins around the same time, even though you can pick her up earlier. Making her the only unit, aside from Byleth, who is not only recruitable on every route, but forced on at least one.

But yeah, it's an interesting system, making the player work for their recruits - and then leaving the timing, and thereby the unit's stats and skill ranks, at the player's discretion. I think it works for the game as it's set up, given the monastery setting and the emphasis on custom-building your units. But missing out on late-joiner archetypes (like a "Gotoh", or an "Est") is kind of a bummer - as is the absence of "talk to them on the battlefield to recruit them". Admittedly, that last one sorta kinda happens, but only for a handful of units (Ashe, Lorenz, Lysithea) post-skip. And only after (not really) killing them in battle.

The most grating nothing about the lack of late game recruits is that there plenty of canonical characters, like Claude's Almyrian buddy and the chick that inexplicably has the lord class, who'd serve as late game recruits but just aren't playable despite joining the army. And of course Rhea.

Edited December 2, 2020 by Jotari

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 12/2/2020 at 2:01 AM, Jotari said:

That's why its grest being enlightened like me. Which means abusing New Game+ so everyone has top tier skills from the start.

The most grating nothing about the lack of late game recruits is that there plenty of canonical characters, like Claude's Almyrian buddy and the chick that inexplicably has the lord class, who'd serve as late game recruits but just aren't playable despite joining the army. And of course Rhea.

Judith and Nader (who is most certainly not Nardel) not being playable on VW is tantamount to a war crime. Somewhere between Micaiah's oil gambit, and nuking Fort Merceus.

[joevar]

On 12/2/2020 at 2:01 PM, Jotari said:

The most grating nothing about the lack of late game recruits is that there plenty of canonical characters, like Claude's Almyrian buddy and the chick that inexplicably has the lord class, who'd serve as late game recruits but just aren't playable despite joining the army. And of course Rhea

iirc theres also character on Edelgard empire army side (or Faerghus? forgot.) that could serve as late joiner with them being already in the army

[Jotari]

43 minutes ago, joevar said:

iirc theres also character on Edelgard empire army side (or Faerghus? forgot.) that could serve as late joiner with them being already in the army

That'd be Randolph and Ladislava. And to add Crimson Flower is the route most lacking in characters so it'd really help to have him there.

[joevar]

Just now, Jotari said:

That'd be Randolph and Ladislava. And to add Crimson Flower is the route most lacking in characters so it'd really help to have him there.

ah yes those. yet another characters that you can (weirdly) kill them when in other route, but cant have them in your army when you are in the same side. just because they are not student or affiliated with seiros and co. 🤔

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

I think there is (at least) one more aspect to “Availability”, more so in the context of Fates/Awakening/Three Houses (and maybe Echoes?).

And that is, what comes with the available character?

She´s already been mentioned, but when you recruit Catherine you don´t just get another good frontliner for the early game, you also get the Thunderbrand – a E-Rank Sword that, when considering her earliest possible recruitment, will probably be one of the best weapons at your disposal at that time in the Playthrough.

Another character to be considered is Ophelia. You can get her very early in the game – requiring the player to know and plan around her recruitment condition – but not only will it net you a good mage, but a Brave Tome, a WTA Reversal Tome and probably the most useful tome (Horse Spirit) all around.

The bottom line being their recruitment offers useful stuff, alongside them being neat units.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

I think there is (at least) one more aspect to “Availability”, more so in the context of Fates/Awakening/Three Houses (and maybe Echoes?).

And that is, what comes with the available character?

She´s already been mentioned, but when you recruit Catherine you don´t just get another good frontliner for the early game, you also get the Thunderbrand – a E-Rank Sword that, when considering her earliest possible recruitment, will probably be one of the best weapons at your disposal at that time in the Playthrough.

Another character to be considered is Ophelia. You can get her very early in the game – requiring the player to know and plan around her recruitment condition – but not only will it net you a good mage, but a Brave Tome, a WTA Reversal Tome and probably the most useful tome (Horse Spirit) all around.

The bottom line being their recruitment offers useful stuff, alongside them being neat units.

Is that really judging the character though? Or just the rewards for completing certain chapters/conditions? Like to take another example, should Bantu be as rated as equally high as Tiki as recruiting him is a condition for getting Tiki?

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Is that really judging the character though? Or just the rewards for completing certain chapters/conditions? Like to take another example, should Bantu be as rated as equally high as Tiki as recruiting him is a condition for getting Tiki?

I mean the characters and the rewards are intertwined. Both Catherine and Ophelia will probably change the way you engage the game, as in have an immediate effect. The same goes for their items.

Whereas Bantu won´t. He doesn´t do anything. Deploying him means painting a big red X on your back. (You can sell the Firestone i guess?) Bantu is literally a key item, except you can throw him away. The reward for recruiting him comes what, 12 chapters later? And Tiki, I mean yeah Divine Stone and blablabla Medeus H5 and stuff but even then, not having Tiki isn´t the end of the world, no? Even if you don´t get Tiki and then don´t get the Falchion you´ll still get Nagi as well as a weaker Falchion. With so much going against him, I see no way that he can ever get out of the lowest possible tier even if Tiki could actually 1v1 Medeus.

[Jotari]

19 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

I mean the characters and the rewards are intertwined. Both Catherine and Ophelia will probably change the way you engage the game, as in have an immediate effect. The same goes for their items.

Whereas Bantu won´t. He doesn´t do anything. Deploying him means painting a big red X on your back. (You can sell the Firestone i guess?) Bantu is literally a key item, except you can throw him away. The reward for recruiting him comes what, 12 chapters later? And Tiki, I mean yeah Divine Stone and blablabla Medeus H5 and stuff but even then, not having Tiki isn´t the end of the world, no? Even if you don´t get Tiki and then don´t get the Falchion you´ll still get Nagi as well as a weaker Falchion. With so much going against him, I see no way that he can ever get out of the lowest possible tier even if Tiki could actually 1v1 Medeus.

Well them with their items I get, but judging them based solely on their items I think is erroneous. Like say Catherine had the worst stats in the game but still came with Thunder and, is she actually better because she comes with Thunderbrand? Even though you're instantly motivated to immediately give it to someone else. Or, consider it another way, what if you get Thunderbrand at her earliest recruitment regardless of her. If she suddenly worse because she doesn't bring it to the table? Or better get, what of a character joins bringing weapons they can't actually use. Should Athos get a high rating because recruiting him gives Hector access to Armads? I bring up Bantu because he's a pretty solid example of a character who comes with an asset (recruiting Tiki) but isn't generally considered good himself. He's an extreme example, but I think the same logic should apply regardless as to how extreme the example is.

Edited December 4, 2020 by Jotari

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

14 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well them with their items I get, but judging them based solely on their items I think is erroneous. Like say Catherine had the worst stats in the game but still came with Thunder and, is she actually better because she comes with Thunderbrand? Even though you're instantly motivated to immediately give it to someone else. Or, consider it another way, what if you get Thunderbrand at her earliest recruitment regardless of her. If she suddenly worse because she doesn't bring it to the table? I bring up Bantu because he's a pretty solid example of a character who comes with an asset (recruiting Tiki) but isn't generally considered good himself. He's an extreme example, but I think the same logic should apply regardless as to how extreme the example is.

1) at no point did I state that they ought to be judged on the items they bring with them upon recruitment. I specifically stated "one more aspect".

2) re your bad Catherine example: if a bad character comes with good loot, then that alone would not be enough reason to tier them highly, especially if everyone can use said loot - see my remarks about Bantu. 

3) re your Thunderbrand regardless of Catherine: What exactly do you mean? If she doesn´t join with Thunderbrand her overall combat would probably suffer thereby making her worse. If she joins and you get the Thunderbrand than you could use both Catherine and another character with Thunderbrand to enhance this one characters combat. Or you use Catherine with Thunderbrand to ensure something is really dead.

I would think it to be within the possibilities of a tier list to tell a player looking for advice to mention where the good stuff is - both as units and as loot boxes. 

[ping]

31 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well them with their items I get, but judging them based solely on their items I think is erroneous. Like say Catherine had the worst stats in the game but still came with Thunder and, is she actually better because she comes with Thunderbrand? Even though you're instantly motivated to immediately give it to someone else. Or, consider it another way, what if you get Thunderbrand at her earliest recruitment regardless of her. If she suddenly worse because she doesn't bring it to the table? Or better get, what of a character joins bringing weapons they can't actually use. Should Athos get a high rating because recruiting him gives Hector access to Armads? I bring up Bantu because he's a pretty solid example of a character who comes with an asset (recruiting Tiki) but isn't generally considered good himself. He's an extreme example, but I think the same logic should apply regardless as to how extreme the example is.

I think Sofiya would be a good example here, too. She finds your second Guiding Ring, which means that you can promote your second magic user (probably Lugh or Lilina, if you use either) almost three entire maps earlier. It makes quite the impact on Lugh's/Lilina's performance, but I think most people won't credit Sofiya for that enhancement.

Although maybe they should? The Guiding Ring is something that you get for "using" Sofiya (not that you had the choice to undeploy her, but you have to keep her alive throughout the chapter), so maybe it should be treated similarly to thieves opening chests or stealing items. I think people are a bit inconsisent in that manner; for example, I don't think Marth is always credited for looting the villages in his games and it's more thought of as a point against him because it takes away opportunity to give him XP.

One reason for not crediting Bantu for Tiki's recruitment is that most tierlists generally assume recruitement as a given, so for example Geitz or Harken don't get penalized compared to Wallace or Karel, even though the latter are easier and more convenient to get. You can turn that around and say that if Geitz doesn't go down the list, then Dart shouldn't get points for giving you a sweet-ass Warrior for free, or LEH for upgrading your recruit from lame-ass General to sweet-ass Warrior by collecting enough level-ups.

TL;DR: I don't think there's a "correct" way to handle these peripheral boons that units bring. I think that personally, I would go with "assume recruitment" and otherwise "credit whatever a unit actually does", which would actually give Sofiya and Marth their brownie points.

And now I probably have to consider ShaDra!Marth > Roy. Damn.

[Jotari]

8 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

1) at no point did I state that they ought to be judged on the items they bring with them upon recruitment. I specifically stated "one more aspect".

2) re your bad Catherine example: if a bad character comes with good loot, then that alone would not be enough reason to tier them highly, especially if everyone can use said loot - see my remarks about Bantu. 

3) re your Thunderbrand regardless of Catherine: What exactly do you mean? If she doesn´t join with Thunderbrand her overall combat would probably suffer thereby making her worse. If she joins and you get the Thunderbrand than you could use both Catherine and another character with Thunderbrand to enhance this one characters combat. Or you use Catherine with Thunderbrand to ensure something is really dead.

I would think it to be within the possibilities of a tier list to tell a player looking for advice to mention where the good stuff is - both as units and as loot boxes. 

My third example was more along the lines of say chapter 6 is the earliest recruitment for Catherine (I think it's something like that but the exact time doesn't matter), at chapter 6 you get Thunderbrand in an automatic event u linked to Catherine. Catherine and Thunderbrand are both things that can be acquired at the same time but they are not linked, you could wait till later to get Catherine. Does that make this hypothetical Thunderbrandless Catherine worse than a Catherine who joins with Thunderbrand in her inventory even though it's making no practical differences to her combat ability as you can immediately give it to her? I think the answer is obviously no. And if the answer is no then I don't really think I it's should get much credit for the weapons they bring (unless they are actually prfs).