Tier Lists and 'Availability': What do?

[AnonymousSpeed]

19 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I think the answer is obviously no. And if the answer is no then I don't really think I it's should get much credit for the weapons they bring (unless they are actually prfs).

I don't agree with that approach to items, but the answer would quite obviously be yes according to that definition. A Catherine joining without the Thunderbrand does not increase your ability to kill things with Thunderbrand. Again, I don't consider inventory a part of a unit's merits, but if you do, then, well, a unit with worse starting items would be inherently worse.

Edited December 5, 2020 by AnonymousSpeed

[Jotari]

39 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I don't agree with that approach to items, but the answer would quite obviously be yes according to that definition. A Catherine joining without the Thunderbrand does not increase your ability to kill things with Thunderbrand. Again, I don't consider inventory a part of a unit's merits, but if you do, then, well, a unit with worse starting items would be inherently worse.

It wouldn't be yes if you have Thunderbrand already unrelated to her. As you can just give it to her. She can kill with Thunderbrand identically as easily as if she comes with it equipped or if she comes just after its already been obtained.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

18 hours ago, Jotari said:

My third example was more along the lines of say chapter 6 is the earliest recruitment for Catherine (I think it's something like that but the exact time doesn't matter), at chapter 6 you get Thunderbrand in an automatic event u linked to Catherine. Catherine and Thunderbrand are both things that can be acquired at the same time but they are not linked, you could wait till later to get Catherine. Does that make this hypothetical Thunderbrandless Catherine worse than a Catherine who joins with Thunderbrand in her inventory even though it's making no practical differences to her combat ability as you can immediately give it to her? I think the answer is obviously no. And if the answer is no then I don't really think I it's should get much credit for the weapons they bring (unless they are actually prfs).

Yeah, I´m not sure I follow you anymore.

You get Thunderbrand in an event linked to Catherine, which gives you the Thunderbrand immediately, but you can choose to recruit Catherine later, for let´s say, extra stat gains? Linked in what way? Enabling recruitment, reaching certain support ranks? In this case receiving the Thunderbrand is still a part of engaging in whatever which way with Catherine – not doing whatever it is you have to do denies access to both Thunderbrand and Catherine. If it isn´t linked at all the point seems moot, as neither would have anything to do with each other. Heck, receiving the Thunderbrand earlier and having Catherine join later may end up being a boon – your worse units have access to better weaponry and your soon to be recruited good unit will be even better.

Which is in part what I was meaning to say with my original post and also why I brought up the likes of Ophelia and her Paralogues rewards. These weapons are not restricted in who may use them, outside of, well at least for Fates, class restrictions. Talking about regular old Catherine once again, she is a good unit, there is no way around it, but that means you may not even need the Thunderbrand on her. Having her use it probably results in overkilling a lot of stuff (depending on difficulty of course). You could use it on another character to make them more competent – picture a weak but fast and perhaps a bit frail character such as Ingrid, who may profit from having access to a high Might Brave weapon to get (more) kills safely (which isn´t me making a statement that´s what you should do).

And unless a prf actually does something for a unit, that would otherwise be not the case (other than just kill shit more) – take the Siegfrid and the Raijinto for example – I see no reason to give credit. Look at Leos Brynhildr. It is undeniably a neat Tome, but that´s all it is. It´s a slightly better version of a Fimbulvetr. It even has a special effect! It´s an exclusive Tome, but on a mediocre unit – which holds back everything it could ever do. Or Ophelias Missiletain, except she´s better than Leo. Or take Marth`s Falchion in SD. It has a special effect! It´s the weapon you´re supposed to slay dragons with! I dare you to attack any Manakete or Medeus on any difficulty above H3 with it. It´s as if Excalibur wasn´t wielded by King Arthur but by common Thief number 3 – blunt and still stuck in a stone.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

9 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

Or take Marth`s Falchion in SD. It has a special effect! It´s the weapon you´re supposed to slay dragons with! I dare you to attack any Manakete or Medeus on any difficulty above H3 with it. It´s as if Excalibur wasn´t wielded by King Arthur but by common Thief number 3 – blunt and still stuck in a stone.

A modestly-trained Marth (say, in the teens) can get 30+ damage on enemy Manaketes in chapter 24 on H5. He's not one-shotting any of them, but he can finish off ones that were already weakened by ranged attacks.

11 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

And unless a prf actually does something for a unit, that would otherwise be not the case (other than just kill shit more) – take the Siegfrid and the Raijinto for example – I see no reason to give credit.

I'm confused - what's the point here? Ryoma with Raijinto is inarguably a better unit than Ryoma without Raijinto. Same with Xander and Siegfried. Their prf weapons are a really important part of their performance. 

17 hours ago, Jotari said:

It wouldn't be yes if you have Thunderbrand already unrelated to her. As you can just give it to her. She can kill with Thunderbrand identically as easily as if she comes with it equipped or if she comes just after its already been obtained.

Are you posing a hypothetical? Because the fact of the game is, you get Thunderbrand when you recruit (or, in CF, kill) Catherine. As it stands, recruiting Catherine also stands to give you Thunderbrand.

[Baldrick]

1 hour ago, Imuabicus said:

Talking about regular old Catherine once again, she is a good unit, there is no way around it, but that means you may not even need the Thunderbrand on her. Having her use it probably results in overkilling a lot of stuff (depending on difficulty of course). You could use it on another character to make them more competent – picture a weak but fast and perhaps a bit frail character such as Ingrid, who may profit from having access to a high Might Brave weapon to get (more) kills safely (which isn´t me making a statement that´s what you should do).

My two cents (also what I think Jotari’s point is), Thunderbrand is a resource, and the credit should go to whoever is the best user of it, not whoever happens to be holding it when you get it. If Ingrid held the Thunderbrand instead of Catherine, it wouldn’t change who best makes use of it.

Quote

And unless a prf actually does something for a unit, that would otherwise be not the case (other than just kill shit more) – take the Siegfrid and the Raijinto for example – I see no reason to give credit. Look at Leos Brynhildr. It is undeniably a neat Tome, but that´s all it is. It´s a slightly better version of a Fimbulvetr. It even has a special effect! It´s an exclusive Tome, but on a mediocre unit – which holds back everything it could ever do.

Brynhildr is also a resource. But, Leo is the best user of it by default, and even if it doesn’t make him great, it makes him less mediocre.

Another hypothetical - say you got the Siegfried  by recruiting Leo. He still can’t use it. Should he get credit for Xander’s performance with Siegfried?

Edited December 5, 2020 by Baldrick

[ping]

So how do people feel about starting inventory vs. thief utility vs. Marth looting villages? How much credit (not that he needs it) does Perceval get for coming with two Silver weapons a couple maps before you can buy them regularly? How much brownie points does Chad get for Lot's Poleax gamble, or Marcus being able to be more liberal with his Silver Lance knowing that the second one comes fairly quickly? And don't village rewards add up a fair bit over the course of FE11 and FE12, respectively?

Again, I don't think there's an objectively correct answer here, but it's two questions a tier list maker might want to ask themselves - one, how do I value getting resources vs. using those resources; and two, how do I decide if getting resources "counts" or not (starting inventory vs. thief utility vs. Marthipan vs. flyers to secure villages, for example). And I'm not sure if tier lists have been consistent about that second question, in particular to Marth's detriment. If I recall, village rewards are very important in his games, and I feel like if those aren't credited to Marth, then Chad should sit at the bottom of any FE6 tier list.

[Interdimensional Observer]

10 minutes ago, ping said:

So how do people feel about starting inventory vs. thief utility vs. Marth looting villages? How much credit (not that he needs it) does Perceval get for coming with two Silver weapons a couple maps before you can buy them regularly? How much brownie points does Chad get for Lot's Poleax gamble, or Marcus being able to be more liberal with his Silver Lance knowing that the second one comes fairly quickly?

In the case of every game since FE11, a dead, recruited characters' items end up in your inventory when the fight is done, so I'd think you might want to divide those who automatically join from those who need recruitment. It's a wafer-thin partition, but it makes sense, I think. Bord's Hammer could've been handed to Marth as a gift from King Talys at the end of the prior chapter and it'd make no real difference. Marth getting handed a Killing Edge instead of having to have Caeda recruit Navarre would make a small but real difference.

As for chest utility, it's the only thing that often gives thieves relevance -considering stealing is often nonexistent or lacking- so as to prevent them from being bottom-tier. 😃 Although the Thief class is bottom-tier for 3H because buyable Chest Keys. And while HHM Matthew deserves tier credit for the Silver Card, Legault should be much lower, because buyable Chest Keys in the same chapter he joins, largely obsoletes him in a game with all too limited deployment slots, though he still gets some credit for a bit more durability, the rare steal, and the desert chapter. 

 

2 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

It´s as if Excalibur wasn´t wielded by King Arthur but by common Thief number 3 – blunt and still stuck in a stone.

An Excalibur stuck in the stone can still be useful. All you have to do is chisel the away at the rock binding the stone to the ground to set it free, and voila, you have a mace. Rock-derived blunt force trauma is potentially deadly.

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

Yeah, I´m not sure I follow you anymore.

You get Thunderbrand in an event linked to Catherine, which gives you the Thunderbrand immediately, but you can choose to recruit Catherine later, for let´s say, extra stat gains? Linked in what way? Enabling recruitment, reaching certain support ranks? In this case receiving the Thunderbrand is still a part of engaging in whatever which way with Catherine – not doing whatever it is you have to do denies access to both Thunderbrand and Catherine. If it isn´t linked at all the point seems moot, as neither would have anything to do with each other. Heck, receiving the Thunderbrand earlier and having Catherine join later may end up being a boon – your worse units have access to better weaponry and your soon to be recruited good unit will be even better.

Which is in part what I was meaning to say with my original post and also why I brought up the likes of Ophelia and her Paralogues rewards. These weapons are not restricted in who may use them, outside of, well at least for Fates, class restrictions. Talking about regular old Catherine once again, she is a good unit, there is no way around it, but that means you may not even need the Thunderbrand on her. Having her use it probably results in overkilling a lot of stuff (depending on difficulty of course). You could use it on another character to make them more competent – picture a weak but fast and perhaps a bit frail character such as Ingrid, who may profit from having access to a high Might Brave weapon to get (more) kills safely (which isn´t me making a statement that´s what you should do).

And unless a prf actually does something for a unit, that would otherwise be not the case (other than just kill shit more) – take the Siegfrid and the Raijinto for example – I see no reason to give credit. Look at Leos Brynhildr. It is undeniably a neat Tome, but that´s all it is. It´s a slightly better version of a Fimbulvetr. It even has a special effect! It´s an exclusive Tome, but on a mediocre unit – which holds back everything it could ever do. Or Ophelias Missiletain, except she´s better than Leo. Or take Marth`s Falchion in SD. It has a special effect! It´s the weapon you´re supposed to slay dragons with! I dare you to attack any Manakete or Medeus on any difficulty above H3 with it. It´s as if Excalibur wasn´t wielded by King Arthur but by common Thief number 3 – blunt and still stuck in a stone.

Okay let's forget about Catherine for a second and provide a parallel example that's easier to comprehend as we're already coming from that direction. If Jeorge from Shadow Dragon came with Parthia equipped would that make him a higher tier unit? That's what I was trying to ask. I think a unit should definitely be rated on what weapons they can make use of  and when, but what exactly is in their starting inventory doesn't really matter beyond the few turns it takes them to get to a convoy. Jeorge is a decent unit because he can use Parthia at base (and at a point in the game where it's unlikely you have anyone else who can), but wether or not it comes with him is pretty irrelevant to how well he performs as a unit. If he did come with it then the village you recruit him at provides a much more valuable reward, but Jeorge himself is unchanged.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Jotari

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

Or take Marth`s Falchion in SD. It has a special effect! It´s the weapon you´re supposed to slay dragons with! I dare you to attack any Manakete or Medeus on any difficulty above H3 with it. It´s as if Excalibur wasn´t wielded by King Arthur but by common Thief number 3 – blunt and still stuck in a stone.

On the other hand, Excalibur can still be used by Soma Cruz, even with it being stuck in the stone. He just swings it as though it were a hammer. Admittedly, though, he's no ordinary human.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Okay let's forget about Catherine for a second and provide a parallel example that's easier to comprehend as we're already coming from that direction. If Jeorge from Shadow Dragon came with Parthia equipped would that make him a higher tier unit? That's what I was trying to ask. I think a unit should definitely be rated on what weapons they can make use of  and when, but what exactly is in their starting inventory doesn't really matter beyond the few turns it takes them to get to a convoy. Jeorge is a decent unit because he can use Parthia at base (and at a point in the game where it's unlikely you have anyone else who can), but wether or not it comes with him is pretty irrelevant to how well he performs as a unit. If he did come with it then the village you recruit him at provides a much more valuable reward, but Jeorge himself is unchanged.

I... think I get what you're trying to say, but this example is faulty. In Shadow Dragon Jeorge joins in chapter 9, with a Bow rank slightly above B. You get Parthia at the end of chapter 12. So it's easy to get his rank up in time, but he can't use it if he doesn't get any training in the meantime. A hypothetical Jeorge, who joins with A Bows, and Parthia in his inventory, would absolutely be a better unit than vanilla Jeorge.

Might this work better as a counter-example? Renning. In RD Endgame, he joins with SS swords, so he can wield the Vague Katti at base. But let's imagine, instead, that he joins with the Vague Katti (a sword that, in vanilla, is acquired alongside Stefan in IV-3). Would such a change make Renning a better unit? And would it make Stefan (suppose he joined with a Silver Sword instead) a worse unit?

[AnonymousSpeed]

Also consider that Stefan would not be able to use Vague Katti until Renning joined, which would actually make him worse by default.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I... think I get what you're trying to say, but this example is faulty. In Shadow Dragon Jeorge joins in chapter 9, with a Bow rank slightly above B. You get Parthia at the end of chapter 12. So it's easy to get his rank up in time, but he can't use it if he doesn't get any training in the meantime. A hypothetical Jeorge, who joins with A Bows, and Parthia in his inventory, would absolutely be a better unit than vanilla Jeorge.

Might this work better as a counter-example? Renning. In RD Endgame, he joins with SS swords, so he can wield the Vague Katti at base. But let's imagine, instead, that he joins with the Vague Katti (a sword that, in vanilla, is acquired alongside Stefan in IV-3). Would such a change make Renning a better unit? And would it make Stefan (suppose he joined with a Silver Sword instead) a worse unit?

Oh, I thought Jeorge already came with A in bows. Well hopefully my point still becomes obvious. Even if I got things backwards a bit 😕 (I think I was thinking you got Parthia earlier because I was mixing up Archanea and Aurelis's liberation, which is pretty baffling I could make such a mistake when I'm currently replaying through the first game and am directly in between those two points right now).

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I... think I get what you're trying to say, but this example is faulty. In Shadow Dragon Jeorge joins in chapter 9, with a Bow rank slightly above B. You get Parthia at the end of chapter 12. So it's easy to get his rank up in time, but he can't use it if he doesn't get any training in the meantime. A hypothetical Jeorge, who joins with A Bows, and Parthia in his inventory, would absolutely be a better unit than vanilla Jeorge.

Might this work better as a counter-example? Renning. In RD Endgame, he joins with SS swords, so he can wield the Vague Katti at base. But let's imagine, instead, that he joins with the Vague Katti (a sword that, in vanilla, is acquired alongside Stefan in IV-3). Would such a change make Renning a better unit? And would it make Stefan (suppose he joined with a Silver Sword instead) a worse unit?

 

35 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Also consider that Stefan would not be able to use Vague Katti until Renning joined, which would actually make him worse by default.

Double posting because Serenes sucks (of course I suck a little for being so quick on that submit button too).

Yes, Stefan would be a slightly worse unit for not having access to Vague Katti for half a chapter. But Renning would be in no way a better unit for joining with Vague Katti in a hypothetical scenario as in the prexisting game you can just give him Vague Katti before he can ever enter combat.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

25 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yes, Stefan would be a slightly worse unit for not having access to Vague Katti for half a chapter. But Renning would be in no way a better unit for joining with Vague Katti in a hypothetical scenario as in the prexisting game you can just give him Vague Katti before he can ever enter combat.

Generally agree with this, with the caveat that Stefan's worseness would be marginal. But I do think there are definitely cases where starting inventory matters. An extreme exame is Tiltyu, in FE4. She joins with Thoron - combined with Wrath, she can one-shot enemy Pirates in chapter 3. But let's say Thoron was buyable at the start of the chapter, and she instead joined with Thunder (and 5000 extra gold). In this case, she would miss out on kills, as she has no way to get Thoron, rendering her performance in this map much worse.

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Generally agree with this, with the caveat that Stefan's worseness would be marginal. But I do think there are definitely cases where starting inventory matters. An extreme exame is Tiltyu, in FE4. She joins with Thoron - combined with Wrath, she can one-shot enemy Pirates in chapter 3. But let's say Thoron was buyable at the start of the chapter, and she instead joined with Thunder (and 5000 extra gold). In this case, she would miss out on kills, as she has no way to get Thoron, rendering her performance in this map much worse.

Well yeah, like I said,

9 hours ago, Jotari said:

Okay let's forget about Catherine for a second and provide a parallel example that's easier to comprehend as we're already coming from that direction. If Jeorge from Shadow Dragon came with Parthia equipped would that make him a higher tier unit? That's what I was trying to ask. I think a unit should definitely be rated on what weapons they can make use of  and when, but what exactly is in their starting inventory doesn't really matter beyond the few turns it takes them to get to a convoy. Jeorge is a decent unit because he can use Parthia at base (and at a point in the game where it's unlikely you have anyone else who can), but wether or not it comes with him is pretty irrelevant to how well he performs as a unit. If he did come with it then the village you recruit him at provides a much more valuable reward, but Jeorge himself is unchanged.

How easy this will be will vary from game to game. For someone like Catherine or Renning who you recruit before gameplay starts it is irrelevant. For a unit like Stefen who you recruit mid map it's more relevant as it means they don't have it for that map (though if the lord has the convoy and the lord recruits the unit it's mostly irrelevant). And Genealogy is a special beast because the game effectively has no convoy at all. What a unit starts with there is very important as trading weapons effectively costs money and requires a character to visit a castle.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

On 12/5/2020 at 8:31 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I'm confused - what's the point here? Ryoma with Raijinto is inarguably a better unit than Ryoma without Raijinto. Same with Xander and Siegfried. Their prf weapons are a really important part of their performance. 

What I was referring to was the 1-2 range, the ability to double at 1-2 range, the ability to crit and procc skills at 1-2 range and the stat increase. That´s a lot more than just being a 11 Might sword. 

On 12/5/2020 at 9:42 PM, Baldrick said:

My two cents (also what I think Jotari’s point is), Thunderbrand is a resource, and the credit should go to whoever is the best user of it, not whoever happens to be holding it when you get it. If Ingrid held the Thunderbrand instead of Catherine, it wouldn’t change who best makes use of it.

So, who is the best user? The unit who starts off strong or the unit who needs help to get up into shape? Keep in mind the immediate effect as well as the potential long term pay-off.

On 12/5/2020 at 9:42 PM, Baldrick said:

Brynhildr is also a resource. But, Leo is the best user of it by default, and even if it doesn’t make him great, it makes him less mediocre.

Another hypothetical - say you got the Siegfried  by recruiting Leo. He still can’t use it. Should he get credit for Xander’s performance with Siegfried?

Since you are arguing hypotheticals anyway - if recruting Leo would allow you to get Siegfried for Xander would you then give credit for that in a tier list? Since without Leo, there will be no performance of Xander with the Siegfried. After all, that was my initial and only argument.

On 12/6/2020 at 1:51 AM, Jotari said:

Okay let's forget about Catherine for a second and provide a parallel example that's easier to comprehend as we're already coming from that direction. If Jeorge from Shadow Dragon came with Parthia equipped would that make him a higher tier unit? That's what I was trying to ask. I think a unit should definitely be rated on what weapons they can make use of  and when, but what exactly is in their starting inventory doesn't really matter beyond the few turns it takes them to get to a convoy. Jeorge is a decent unit because he can use Parthia at base (and at a point in the game where it's unlikely you have anyone else who can), but wether or not it comes with him is pretty irrelevant to how well he performs as a unit. If he did come with it then the village you recruit him at provides a much more valuable reward, but Jeorge himself is unchanged.

Setting aside the problems with this example. If he had the Parthia and it would improve his combat - more 1HKOs and more (accurate) chip damage would you then evaluate him to be a better unit? Because you already mentioned my main point yourself - he became more valuable to recruit for bringing in good weaponry. Or to remain in the realm of hypotheticals - think of Arran and Samson. They join with equally terrible stats, but but both have a max forged Handaxe/Javelin. Who would you recruit? Would you account for this difference in a tier list? If reading through a tier list that told you about this what would you think?  Would you consider recruiting them because they are terrible units with good weapons  or because they have weapons that may benefit your other untis? Or think of Sonya and Deen but let´s make them Villagers to remove class bias and add a ? as a portrait to remove waifu factor. Steel Shield or Brave Sword?

On 12/5/2020 at 10:58 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

An Excalibur stuck in the stone can still be useful. All you have to do is chisel the away at the rock binding the stone to the ground to set it free, and voila, you have a mace. Rock-derived blunt force trauma is potentially deadly.

On 12/6/2020 at 2:02 AM, Shadow Mir said:

On the other hand, Excalibur can still be used by Soma Cruz, even with it being stuck in the stone. He just swings it as though it were a hammer. Admittedly, though, he's no ordinary human.

I´m certain the Lady of the Lake or God himself would have a thing or two to say about some thief-mason chiselling away at their worthy-candidate-choosing-stone. And depending on which tradition you follow I seem to remember there being an additional anvil to be involved.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

2 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

m certain the Lady of the Lake or God himself would have a thing or two to say about some thief-mason chiselling away at their worthy-candidate-choosing-stone. And depending on which tradition you follow I seem to remember there being an additional anvil to be involved.

We're ignoring the greatest heresy of all here - Excalibur, and the Sword-in-the-Stone, are two different weapons.

3 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

So, who is the best user? The unit who starts off strong or the unit who needs help to get up into shape? Keep in mind the immediate effect as well as the potential long term pay-off.

On Azure Moon, Felix, probably. He gets 5 damage from his personal, then 5 more when his Crest activates. Catherine may be stronger at first (as she's in a Swordfaire class), but if/when Felix gets into a Swordfaire class, he'll surpass her (especially if he took the time to master Fighter and Brigand). You can have Catherine start with it, then trade it over to Felix (or Byleth, or your Lord, or whichever physical sword unit you've been training up).

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

Setting aside the problems with this example. If he had the Parthia and it would improve his combat - more 1HKOs and more (accurate) chip damage would you then evaluate him to be a better unit? Because you already mentioned my main point yourself - he became more valuable to recruit for bringing in good weaponry.

If the unit comes with the better weapon, that makes them more valuable to recruit, but that isn't making the unit better imo. That's making the village where they're located more valuable. The unit's combat would be just as good if the weapon is obtained before their recruitment than it would be if it were obtained at their recruitment.

5 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

Or to remain in the realm of hypotheticals - think of Arran and Samson. They join with equally terrible stats, but but both have a max forged Handaxe/Javelin. Who would you recruit? Would you account for this difference in a tier list? If reading through a tier list that told you about this what would you think?  Would you consider recruiting them because they are terrible units with good weapons  or because they have weapons that may benefit your other untis? Or think of Sonya and Deen but let´s make them Villagers to remove class bias and add a ? as a portrait to remove waifu factor. Steel Shield or Brave Sword?

Same, it might make the recruitment better, but the unit itself is going to provide the same utility in the game. In this case if they have equally terrible stats then both are equally low tier with the one with the better weapon being the preferable option. But that doesn't actually make them a better unit as, unless the weapon they're coming with is a prf, you'd trade it away to one of the units you actually use the first chance you get.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

18 hours ago, Jotari said:

But that doesn't actually make them a better unit as, unless the weapon they're coming with is a prf, you'd trade it away to one of the units you actually use the first chance you get.

That is all I meant. I was not specifically referring to the quality of a unit, but to the utility recruiting a unit may bring to your army. A utility that should most certainly be part of a tier list, unless the purpose behind said tier list is not in need of such utility, no? 

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

That is all I meant. I was not specifically referring to the quality of a unit, but to the utility recruiting a unit may bring to your army. A utility that should most certainly be part of a tier list, unless the purpose behind said tier list is not in need of such utility, no? 

But we're grading recruitments over actual unit performance, then that goes back to the Bantu argument. Should he be rated as equally high as Tiki, a fairly good unit, because she can't be recruited without him?

[Whisky]

On 11/18/2020 at 8:23 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Well frick, who said it then? Was it @Whisky? I certainly didn't come up with it.

@AnonymousSpeed
Wow, look how far this has moved on! I’ve been busy with homework and stuff, but finals just ended so I finally have free time!

Anyway, that does sound like something I’ve said, now that you mention it, but it wasn’t in that thread you mentioned, it was from a while back actually. I’m surprised you remembered it.

Basically I said that it seems like people rate units based on how useful they are to get in a draft. They seem to look at “if I can only have one of these units, which one would I rather have?”, or “removing which of these units would make the game harder”? Something along those lines. Which I do think makes sense... from a certain point of view. It doesn’t reflect the reality of a non-draft playthrough though. In non-draft playthroughs, units are not removed from the game. You aren’t forced to choose which of two units to use throughout the whole game.

If you are attempting to make a list and put every unit in it in order of how ‘good’ they are or how useful they are, then you need an established metric. You can’t have everyone rating units by different standards. There is no ultimate tier list that everyone will agree on. But how do you put units into an ordered list from ‘best’ to ‘worst’? How do you rate a unit’s ‘usefulness’? I think the draft point of view actually works about as well if not better than anything else in that regard. The important thing is for the tier list to clearly state the metrics being used.

But the next question is: how is this tier list useful? What purpose does it serve? Someone I talked to before said that the tier list itself isn’t useful, but that the value comes from the discussion around if. Either a tier list is made from multiple people participating in discussion about where they think units should be and why, or someone shares their own tier list as a discussion starter and then people discuss what they think of it and what changes they should be made. Either way, the tier list itself isn’t useful but there is value in the discussion that it creates. And again, either way, the metric being used needs to be clearly stated.

These types of tier lists are not helpful for what units new players should use to make the game easier for them. Perhaps a tier list could be made for that purpose if that metric is explained before hand, but most are not.

Obviously for the purpose of what units you would recommend using to make the game easier, availability really isn’t a factor at all. Of course late joining units like Athos and Harken should always be used once they join and using them when they’re around will definitely make the game easier. But trying to make a tier list based on this would be very difficult. What units do you recommend someone use in a playthrough? Perhaps almost all of them at different points in time and for different purposes? So how do you reflect that in a meaningful useful way in an ordered list?
 

I don’t know. I’ve always thought that tier lists were pretty useless and that it’s far more useful to just talk about the strengths and weaknesses of each unit and what they are capable of doing and in what ways they can be useful. Just give the player all the information they need to make their own informed decisions for how good the unit is within their own metric and which units they want to use.

Edited December 9, 2020 by Whisky

[AnonymousSpeed]

2 hours ago, Whisky said:

Anyway, that does sound like something I’ve said, now that you mention it, but it wasn’t in that thread you mentioned, it was from a while back actually. I’m surprised you remembered it.

My mind is like a steel trap- a conceptually simple structure of iron and carbon through which electricity may be conducted to elicit certain behavioral responses.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

13 hours ago, Jotari said:

But we're grading recruitments over actual unit performance, then that goes back to the Bantu argument. Should he be rated as equally high as Tiki, a fairly good unit, because she can't be recruited without him?

Let me give you the relevant part of my initial post:

On 12/4/2020 at 11:12 AM, Imuabicus said:

I think there is (at least) one more aspect to “Availability”, more so in the context of Fates/Awakening/Three Houses (and maybe Echoes?).

And that is, what comes with the available character?

Where does it suggest here that  recruitment ought to be considered over performance? Where. Point it out to me, because I´m not sure how I can be more clear. Additionally the point is not the recruitment, but what comes with the recruited unit - read: weapons, items, money etc. 

And in response to the Bantu argument - he won´t ever get out of "Do not use-tier", since there is literally nothing positive to him, other than recruting Tiki - who is also completely optional to use on any difficulty, further dragging down any benfit there is to the old lad - as far as I´m aware at least. But I already told you that.

[Jotari]

3 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

Let me give you the relevant part of my initial post:

Where does it suggest here that  recruitment ought to be considered over performance? Where. Point it out to me, because I´m not sure how I can be more clear. Additionally the point is not the recruitment, but what comes with the recruited unit - read: weapons, items, money etc. 

And in response to the Bantu argument - he won´t ever get out of "Do not use-tier", since there is literally nothing positive to him, other than recruting Tiki - who is also completely optional to use on any difficulty, further dragging down any benfit there is to the old lad - as far as I´m aware at least. But I already told you that.

I don't mean that as in what they come with is more important than what the unit themself can do, I mean we're not ranking a list of characters, but a list of recruitments. That seems to be what the whole argument is suggesting ie, you obtain a weapons and a unit and those two things come and should be rated as a combo, rather than being entirely divorced from each other as functions. If Samson and Arran came with a maxed forged Hand Axe or Javelin but terrible stats then they're just as much be in the Do not use-tier as Bantu.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

I don't mean that as in what they come with is more important than what the unit themself can do, I mean we're not ranking a list of characters, but a list of recruitments. That seems to be what the whole argument is suggesting ie, you obtain a weapons and a unit and those two things come and should be rated as a combo, rather than being entirely divorced from each other as functions. If Samson and Arran came with a maxed forged Hand Axe or Javelin but terrible stats then they're just as much be in the Do not use-tier as Bantu.

What I meant was that potential benefits of recruiting characters beyond their value as a unit should be taken into consideration. Which is an abstract way of saying "(recruit [for useful stuff too])" not saying "(recruit only for useful stuff)".

I mean they are connected, aren´t they? No theoretical Arran, no theoretical good Javelin and vice versa. No Bantu (kinda) no Tiki. No Catherine no Thunderbrand etc. pp. Any rating ends right then and there, because as you mentioned, getting them to the convoy makes them available to everyone. None of this means they remain as one for the rest of your playthrough. Not recruting them denies access to equipment. I don´t think being a bad unit but coming with good equipment is mutually exclusive - Matthis in chapter 4 (I think) would have some relevance if he came with a Ridersbane. But if a unit is bad, so bad in fact that even contributing otherwise doesn´t warrant raising their rating, then just let them rest in their bad units tier.

What would rating equipment and units as separate functions look like? Because units, among other things ofc, are rated with the weapons they may use at base in mind, no? A lot of units join with weapons they can in fact use and it will take a turn or two to get your shiny new weapon to another unit. And I dunno, but how many units are there that join with equipment that they can´t use - the only one I can think of right now is Est in SD, since she fetches the Mercurius, but she also has a Ridersbane and C-Rank in Lances.

Weapon tier lists?

Edited December 9, 2020 by Imuabicus