Stop bullying Fates. It doesn’t deserve it

[Armagon]

8 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

This even happens in the climax of the other two paths where the Yato breaks and is only restored through people putting their faith in Corrin.

But they already trusted him in those routes? Which begs the question why it still waited? Does the trust need to be absolute and unconditional? Maybe. But that's not the impression I got. If trust really was the definitive answer, then it's kinda bad that the definitive explanation is locked away at the end of a DLC campaign.

Also the first form of the Yato in Revelation is the odd one out because it's just the Rainbow Sage snapping his fingers and giving Corrin a new sword.

If trust was indeed the intended theme, then I (and most people) would argue that it wasn't really conveyed properly. Because the game just makes it look like all the Yato needed was proximity to the Divine Weapons. Which is understandable, a common trope in fantasy is "gather all the magic thingies to unlock the ultimate magic thingy".

14 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Themes in stories don’t stop. They keep going and permeate throughout every aspect of it be it through sequals or questionably canonical what if scenarios. 

That is not a universal law. Can it happen? Yes. Must it happen? No. Look at the original Star Wars trilogy. The theme in A New Hope is not the same as the theme in The Empire Strikes Back and the theme in that movie is not the same as the theme in Return of the Jedi.

[Ottservia]

19 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Also the first form of the Yato in Revelation is the odd one out because it's just the Rainbow Sage snapping his fingers and giving Corrin a new sword.

 

Not really as that happens in chapter 15 I believe right before the story’s midpoint climax. This “power up” for Corrin is after they’ve succeeded in gaining the trust of numerous allies who were imperative to help them reach this point as they wouldn’t have been able to do so otherwise. It’s a narrative reward for gaining people’s trust. The maps that immediately follow are the ones where the rest of royals join Corrin’s army because they choose to put their trust in them. The only way Corrin gains allies in this story is through proving that they trustworthy. At least that’s the case with Revelation. 

 

24 minutes ago, Armagon said:

If trust really was the definitive answer, then it's kinda bad that the definitive explanation is locked away at the end of a DLC campaign.

I mean it’s not like it HAS to be overt with its themes. Subtlety is a thing. It’s not bad writing that the theme of the story is not directly stated in the story itself otherwise I could name a number of well regarded stories that are bad by that logic.

26 minutes ago, Armagon said:

If trust was indeed the intended theme, then I (and most people) would argue that it wasn't really conveyed properly. Because the game just makes it look like all the Yato needed was proximity to the Divine Weapons. Which is understandable, a common trope in fantasy is "gather all the magic thingies to unlock the ultimate magic thingy".

Hey, I’m not saying it’s perfect. I’m just saying it’s there. If you wanna argue that it was poorly handled by all means get a discussion going. I disagree somewhat especially with that reasoning but I don’t really have the energy to argue right now.

[Dark Holy Elf]

This thread certainly blew up.

First off: I like Fates. Conquest has the best gameplay in the series, and it has some nifty characters. Its plot isn't very good, but not the worst FE plot either... or even that close. FE has quite a lot of bad plots in my books.

I think it's perfectly fine that not everyone feels the same way I do, of course. Some people think that the gameplay has too many moving parts what with all the skills and dragon vein effects flying around and prefer something more streamlined; that's totally valid. Some people think Fates's continent not having a name is a more significant writing flaw than SoV damselfying the majority of its female cast... well, they're entitled to their opinion.

I do think Fates does sometimes suffer a bit from some of the dislike of it being weirdly toxic. Again, fine to dislike it, but I've seen places where disliking it is somehow "expected" or "objective" (as if the people who gave it its consistently high critic scores and send give its cast some of the highest number of votes in CYL year after year are all delusional) and it does get a bit frustrating to see speaking as someone who likes the game. Never had a problem with Serenes about this, though.

[Interdimensional Observer]

53 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Some people think Fates's continent not having a name is a more significant writing flaw than SoV damselfying the majority of its female cast... well, they're entitled to their opinion.

Are you going to make a similar criticism of Archanea? After all:

• Lena- Rescued by Julian in both games.
• Maria- Must be rescued in both games.
• Elice- Must be rescued in both games, even if she consented to being staying behind and being captured both times.
• Nyna- Unplayable freed from captivity by Camus, passed on to Hardin, and then trusts in Marth, princess in the first game. Has to be rescued in the second.
• Minerva- Wants to be resistant in SD but can't b/c Maria is hostage, Marth by saving Maria, frees Minerva. Mystery makes her helpless until her brother saves her.
• SD Linde- Stuck in slave market until Marth came to her rescue.
• Yumina- Captive and has to be rescued, like her brother Jubelo.
• Midia- In a prison in SD along with four men. In Mystery she rebelled and failed, and basically needs a Rescue staff charge to keep alive in Mystery. 
• Palla and Catria- Bound by the Maria hostage situation in SD, so they're bound in a semi-captive status like Minerva in that game.
• Est- Like her sisters in the first game, imprisoned in the second.
• SD Tiki- Brainwashed by Gharnef, must be rescued.
• Phina- Had to be rescued by Navarre.
• Marisha- Had to be kept in hiding masquerading as a child to avoid being captured by lustful & indirectly and unknowingly workin' for Gharnef Lang.

So many captive and semi-captive females, I wonder why this is? Maybe it's because these women were written in a much earlier era of gaming when medieval fantasy games were commonly written with all the sexism usually found in the stories at the time? 

Sons of Valentia is a faithful remake of Guyden, the game sandwiched between the Manchanea duology. Whilst the game did take liberties with the very thin plot of the original game, it did not mess with map design very much if at all. Hence, if Mathilda was in prison in Gaiden, she had to be in prison in SoV, the developers were too bound to the old map design and recruitments to consider tossing Clive behind bars instead.

I'm not saying that this isn't sexist, and I'm perfectly fine with the retort "Well, SoV shouldn't have been so stuck in preserving a past worth leaving behind!", but I am making the point that SoV was a remake, the developers did not write the damsels out of the ether or because they wanted to. The SoV lead dev team members saw what they had to resurrect, and made their choice between keeping the forms of old, or showing greater artistic license.

I played the entirety of Fates and the entirety of SoV the exact same way. Lights on, clothes on, no eye contact, skip all plot scenes, skip all supports, turn off voice acting, very rarely were animations on. I have no bonds to Camilla or Celica, they're CQ.G1.U8 and V.C.U1 to me, androids I deployed for gameplay and nothing more. I am biased towards neither game nor their casts.

Edited November 22, 2020 by Interdimensional Observer

[Armagon]

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

I mean it’s not like it HAS to be overt with its themes. Subtlety is a thing. It’s not bad writing that the theme of the story is not directly stated in the story itself otherwise I could name a number of well regarded stories that are bad by that logic.

Oh i agree but it could've been done better. I personally would not have put "oh btw, the source of all the powerups is trust" at the end of a DLC campaign. Let's leave it at that, i think we both understood the points were each trying to make.

[Dark Holy Elf]

54 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Are you going to make a similar criticism of Archanea? After all:

Sure, I certainly could. I think Archanaea comes off a little better relatively because Caeda is the game's leading woman and never suffers such a fate that I can recall, but I'm not gonna go to bat for it.

I'm certainly aware that older games tend to be more sexist. My point is that I personally consider that a huge writing flaw which casts a pall on the entire work from a writing standpoint, which is why I'm comfortable saying there are multiple games out there with worse writing than Fates, personally.

[L3xandr3]

... So, trust, huh? I'm calling you out! Time for me to have a right proper go at this.

You say trust is the main theme in Fates. Because it came from a optional paid DLC. Ok then. I'm going to one-up you and say the main theme is Racism.

Oh, it's not, is it? The Hoshidians hate Nohrians and Nohrians hate Hoshidians. Nohrians think Hoshidians are weak, and want to take their lands because they are stronger and they want them. The Hoshidians, meanwhile, hate Nohrians for being warmongers, merciless, cruel, and greedy. Neither side is particularly right or wrong in this. There are good Nohrians, just as there are bad Hoshidians. But the first thing out of a Hoshidian's mouth is "You trust this Nohrian scum?" or something comparable.

"Oh, but they don't" you say? Mhm. Saizo in Chapter 7 of BR when Corrin is recruiting Silas:

"You can't be serious, Corrin. You'd really allow this backstabbing Nohrian scum to accompany us?"

This is one example. I can find others. And you want to know the BEST PART? This is only from the main games. NOT THE DLC!

So, what's the point of this little rant? You can argue any point to a fair-thee-well if you so please. Because this kind of thing is Subjective, not Objective. Unless you find Hard Facts, then you cannot make an effective argument. Because I can refute anything you say, and you can do the same.

Ok. I've vented enough on this. What's your reprisal, huh?

[eclipse]

9 hours ago, Ottservia said:

I mean that’s fair enough I suppose but could someone kindly and respectfully explain how exactly I’m invalidating someone else’s opinions. I don’t understand how “I think your argument/criticism doesn’t make much sense and here’s why” translates to “you’re not allowed to have an opinion” because I feel like there’s a clear difference between those two statements

I'm gonna answer this one instead.  Notice how I've said nothing about the topic at hand?  That's because I have zero emotional stake in it - I think analyzing Fates is a waste of my time, and I have better things to do with what little free time I have.

So since you seem to have more than me, start by analyzing the title of your post AND the first post in the exact same way you analyze Fates.  Ask yourself why me, the reader, seems to be so very displeased about it.  Because that's an actual analysis worth doing (as effective communication will serve you far more than a random video game opinion).

Edited November 22, 2020 by eclipse

[L3xandr3]

6 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

... So, trust, huh? I'm calling you out! Time for me to have a right proper go at this.

You say trust is the main theme in Fates. Because it came from a optional paid DLC. Ok then. I'm going to one-up you and say the main theme is Racism.

Oh, it's not, is it? The Hoshidians hate Nohrians and Nohrians hate Hoshidians. Nohrians think Hoshidians are weak, and want to take their lands because they are stronger and they want them. The Hoshidians, meanwhile, hate Nohrians for being warmongers, merciless, cruel, and greedy. Neither side is particularly right or wrong in this. There are good Nohrians, just as there are bad Hoshidians. But the first thing out of a Hoshidian's mouth is "You trust this Nohrian scum?" or something comparable.

"Oh, but they don't" you say? Mhm. Saizo in Chapter 7 of BR when Corrin is recruiting Silas:

"You can't be serious, Corrin. You'd really allow this backstabbing Nohrian scum to accompany us?"

This is one example. I can find others. And you want to know the BEST PART? This is only from the main games. NOT THE DLC!

So, what's the point of this little rant? You can argue any point to a fair-thee-well if you so please. Because this kind of thing is Subjective, not Objective. Unless you find Hard Facts, then you cannot make an effective argument. Because I can refute anything you say, and you can do the same.

Ok. I've vented enough on this. What's your reprisal, huh?

Ok, so that was a bit harsh of me. IRL troubles poking through. My apologies. But the point still stands. Everyone has their own opinion. There is little point beating each other over the head for such a poor reason.

[Lightcosmo]

10 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

 I was just wondering if you had anything to say in response to the points I've made. 

Don't feel bad, i made alot of points that were ignored as well. Xd

[Sooks]

15 hours ago, Ottservia said:

I mean that’s fair enough I suppose but could someone kindly and respectfully explain how exactly I’m invalidating someone else’s opinions. I don’t understand how “I think your argument/criticism doesn’t make much sense and here’s why” translates to “you’re not allowed to have an opinion” because I feel like there’s a clear difference between those two statements

*ahem*

17 hours ago, Sooks said:

Because you say not to critique off of some opinions yet complain about it being the punching bag of the series, which implies that anyone ever saying anything bad about it is critique, so therefore don’t say anything bad about Fates unless you agree with it comes across as what you’re saying.

^

12 hours ago, Ottservia said:

In regards to the “trust” theme. I’ll just say that the stated reason for the why Yato doesn’t awaken to the omega yato at one point in the heirs of fate DLC is that Kana didn’t trust Shigure. That is something that is outright stated by Kana herself and when they do put their faith in Shigure who in turn puts his faith in them that’s when the Omega Yato is finally able to awaken. You can call personal interpretation all you want but if it’s outright stated by the game itself then I think that goes a little beyond interpretation.

Heirs of Fate is a separate story.

15 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

Don't feel bad, i made alot of points that were ignored as well. Xd

You guys are in this club as well?

[Lightcosmo]

6 minutes ago, Sooks said:

You guys are in this club as well?

I started this club. Xd

Seriously though, Fates has way to much "convenience" running its story, which is why I really dont like it. Things that happen just... happen. They feel forced, which is not how you write a good story. 

Yes you can say "but things have to happen somehow!" This is true, but not like that, and not all of the time.

[Sooks]

24 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

I started this club. Xd

Seriously though, Fates has way to much "convenience" running its story, which is why I really dont like it. Things that happen just... happen. They feel forced, which is not how you write a good story. 

Yes you can say "but things have to happen somehow!" This is true, but not like that, and not all of the time.

I agree! Character driven stories >>>> whatever you would call a story strung together by coincidences because it’s kinda boring when everything happened just because.

Edited November 22, 2020 by Sooks

[Lightcosmo]

3 hours ago, Sooks said:

I agree! Character driven stories >>>> whatever you would call a story strung together by coincidences because it’s kinda boring when everything happened just because.

Well, imo there's no build up or anything leading to that point. How can you have a rising action to a story when there's no... foundation?

Fate's event's just happen purely because they can, plain and simple. Azura is a dancer no one can recognize because... well, i don't honestly know why. 

Leo has magic that can transport your entire army one time, very specifically of course, right when you need it most. Like it just sounds so... ridiculous.

[DragonFlames]

13 hours ago, Armagon said:

There's nothing really wrong with preferring your own interpretation over the author's or assuming what they wrote was a happy accident and i know i just gave every literature professor a heart attack with that sentence but that's how i feel.

Just came here to say that there is no need to worry. The one thing our professors shoved down our throats in the first semester is that there is never "right" or "wrong" with interpreting stories. The only thing there IS is "more" or "less". And what you said is in completely line with that.
Though admittedly, I DO know this way of thinking is rather young, but I didn't have any professor so far who went against this.

[Sooks]

8 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

Well, imo there's no build up or anything leading to that point. How can you have a rising action to a story when there's no... foundation?

Fate's event's just happen purely because they can, plain and simple. Azura is a dancer no one can recognize because... well, i don't honestly know why. 

Leo has magic that can transport your entire army one time, very specifically of course, right when you need it most. Like it just sounds so... ridiculous.

Azura and Corrin can enter Valla by traveling through water for a reason that is never explained, but the game acknowledges there is a reason. (Because the writers needed a quick way to get them there.)

Corrin can turn into a dragon just because, and Azura has a very rare stone on her that can control this power just because.

Kaze happens to overhear something that makes him want to join Corrin in Conquest just because. Just to add to the list.

A lot of these points have to do with Azura, huh?

4 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

I DO know this way of thinking is rather young

What does that mean? I agree with the way of thinking!

Edited November 22, 2020 by Sooks

[Ottservia]

1 hour ago, L3xandr3 said:

Ok, so that was a bit harsh of me. IRL troubles poking through. My apologies. But the point still stands. Everyone has their own opinion. There is little point beating each other over the head for such a poor reason.

That honestly depends, I’ve repeated multiple times but I am okay with disagreements and differing interpretations so long as we can have a discussion about it. Now I’m not necessarily saying trust is the be all end all. I’m just saying that’s the one theme that’s the most blunt and in your face with the most direct supporting evidence and just most evidence overall. 

 

1 hour ago, lightcosmo said:

Don't feel bad, i made alot of points that were ignored as well. Xd

Ah yes, because I, a human with real life obligations and responsibilities, has all the time and mental energy in order to respond to every single goddamn post in this thread. I have a life y’know as surprising as that may sound. You don’t gotta be so rude about it. Yeesh.

 

15 minutes ago, Sooks said:

I agree! Character driven stories >>>> whatever you would call a story strung together by coincidences because it’s kinda boring when everything happened just because.

I mean if you wanna go that route. Every story in existence can be considered strung together by coincidences. Storytelling is contrived by its very definition. It’s an inevitability in stories. I mean hey 3H’s story is just a series of events held together by a string of coincidences and I’d argue it’s worse in 3H because 3H does not understand the first thing about how cause and effect works. 

[Sooks]

1 minute ago, Ottservia said:

I mean if you wanna go that route. Every story in existence can be considered strung together by coincidences. Storytelling is contrived by its very definition. It’s an inevitability in stories. I mean hey 3H’s story is just a series of events held together by a string of coincidences and I’d argue it’s worse in 3H because 3H does not understand the first thing about how cause and effect works. 

There’s such a thing with going overboard with it, good stories don’t have coincidences actively driving the plot forward, at least in my opinion.

[Ottservia]

Just now, Sooks said:

There’s such a thing with going overboard with it, good stories don’t have coincidences actively driving the plot forward, at least in my opinion.

I agree and disagree with this. I disagree on the grounds that I believe every story is like this to a degree. But I do agree in regards story structure needing to have some flow to it. The plot points of story should be held together by a “but” or a “therefore” if any story beat is connected by an “and then” then you have a problem. Thankfully Fates’s story understands this albeit in a somewhat shallow way. 3H on the other hand does not.

[Lightcosmo]

3 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Ah yes, because I, a human with real life obligations and responsibilities, has all the time and mental energy in order to respond to every single goddamn post in this thread. I have a life y’know as surprising as that may sound. You don’t gotta be so rude about it. Yeesh.

As you just posted, you must have seen what i said right above, right? That's an excuse, your choosing not to reply because i'm right, let's just say it like it is. That's why you ignore anyone who has a good point, not just me. You only pick apart points that you can argue against.

Also considering alot of your posts have paragraphs of opinions, you could have easily replied in a lengthly manner. 

As @vanguard333 stated he wanted your personal opinion about something, and you ignored him. And i'm the rude one? Right, i think you need to look in the mirror on that one.

Edited November 22, 2020 by lightcosmo

[DragonFlames]

18 minutes ago, Sooks said:

What does that mean? I agree with the way of thinking!

 

I agree, too! I just meant that it wasn't always this way, reportedly.

[Ottservia]

9 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

As you just posted, you must have seen what i said right above, right? That's an excuse, your choosing not to reply because i'm right, let's just say it like it is.

Could you be anymore arrogant? Excuse me for being blunt but geez all I did was not respond to your post on an online forum. No need to take it so seriously. Yes my thread title is hyperbolic and again I might change that but yeesh you need to cool your head. It’s just an internet forum.

[Sooks]

5 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

 

I agree, too! I just meant that it wasn't always this way, reportedly.

Oh, that makes sense. English teachers had to come from somewhere after all.

2 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Could you be anymore arrogant? Excuse me for being blunt but geez all I did was not respond to your post on an online forum. No need to take it so seriously. Yes my thread title is hyperbolic and again I might change that but yeesh you need to cool your head. It’s just an internet forum.

Don’t you want to enjoy a game just to spite other people?

[Ottservia]

Just now, Sooks said:

Don’t you want to enjoy a game just to spite other people?

Hyperbolic statement I don’t really mean at least  it’s not one to be taken literally 

[Lightcosmo]

3 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Could you be anymore arrogant? Excuse me for being blunt but geez all I did was not respond to your post on an online forum. No need to take it so seriously. Yes my thread title is hyperbolic and again I might change that but yeesh you need to cool your head. It’s just an internet forum.

Well you stated to me before: "i didn't respond because you were right and i had nothing to say" correct? I'm assuming the rules don't change. 

Also: you ignored me again, thank you.

Also also: I'm not angry, far from it, actually. Annoyed, maybe, but not upset. You on the other hand, i'd argue you're angry, based on the topic.

How many times can i say, the point where Leo has his convenient warping spell! is poor writing imo, gets ignored. you wanted to discuss bad writing, which i am, only to be ignored every time i mention it.

Edited November 22, 2020 by lightcosmo