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Ottservia

Stop bullying Fates. It doesn’t deserve it

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23 minutes ago, Sooks said:

What does that mean?

Tactics Ogre: Let us Cling Together has "routes: 

Chaotic Neutral, and lawful, in game choices decide which route your on, who you recruit, who you save, etc.

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11 minutes ago, L3xandr3 said:

I gave examples of how it's lazy.

no you didn't. You just gave examples of plot convenience which isn't laziness on its own. I can't prove that it's not lazy. It is impossible to prove laziness one way or the other. And frankly I just find accusing anyone of laziness to be rude and downright insensitive. Then let me ask you what is an example of "non-lazy" storytelling to you. I don't have a frame of reference here. How do I prove that it's not lazy? what does that look like to you? cause one way I can say thought was put into this story is simply through Corrin's crit quotes that change in accordance to each path. You have "for Nohr", "for Hoshido", and "I make my own fate". Which reflects Corrin's character arc across all three paths. In the case of the first two quotes they are fighting for Nohr or Hoshido, obviously. The last one is the outlier. Corrin doesn't "for Valla" because 1. that would open up a giant plot hole and 2. it kind of represents Revelation as a story and what it means for Corrin's character. In birthright and conquest they fight for the ideals of someone else. They blindly follow the ideals of other people within Nohr and Hoshido hence the crit lines "For Nohr" and "For Hoshido". They fight for the ideals of the country they side with. Revelation is different. Corrin rejects both paths offered to them and forges their own path. They follow their own ideals not those of others hence the quote "I make my own fate" because they're following their own path that they decided for themselves. I wouldn't call that lazy at all because there is nuance to it that you can dig into and uncover. It required thought to put in cause they could've easily just made Corrin's crit quotes the same across every path but they didn't. They actually put in the effort to have one crit quote change across each path that represent Corrin's character in said path. But something tells me even with that explanation, I haven't convinced you. So, you tell me what "non-lazy writing" looks like.

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48 minutes ago, Sooks said:

What does that mean?

I like choices in games though, so I agree!

In Conquest Corrin “follows” Garon until 15 and then they follow themself. Azure just gives them an idea and they do everything from there.

It absolutely did not! Have you seen how cartoonishly evil Garon, Iago, and Hans are?? It’s still the exact same thing, but you can play as a prince or princess of the evil kingdom who ends up doing basically the same thing anyway.

Yep, this is completely false as I imagined. Did you seriously miss that Garon is a slime? He's not a "cartoonishly evil" character, he is literally a plot device slime of the manipulator. He is meant to show that even something as obvious as that will still be enough to push good people that however hate each other to organised murder. It shows why this kind of good Vs evil hate that they are doing is wrong.

Hans is hardly "evil". He is a great example of the average "I was just following orders" soldier who will present actually sound reasoning for what they do, which may be immoral, but it just doesn't matter because it's a war. You can't blame the other person for being evil for killing people while your hands are red with blood.

Indeed, Corrin is not actually being worshipped or leading on their own. They are following orders throughout the entirety of Conquest. After chapter 16 they invade Hoshido and become part of Garon's army. They have the same objective and are following their orders. If you missed that I seriously doubt what you understood of the game at all.

And yes, the game absolutely is a phenomenal deconstruction of the genre of good Vs evil wars in fantasy. Late CQ Chapters such as 23 might as well be the peak of the series. Conquest shows what it truly looks like to the people fighting on that evil side. It's a moral burden that you could never be able to bear, which is why you are so offended by Conquest and how it asked you such difficult moral questions.

Edited by SRPG Tryhard

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11 minutes ago, SRPG Tryhard said:

Yep, this is completely false as I imagined. Did you seriously miss that Garon is a slime? He's not a "cartoonishly evil" character, he is literally a plot device slime of the manipulator. He is meant to show that even something as obvious as that will still be enough to push good people that however hate each other to organised murder. It shows why this kind of good Vs evil hate that they are doing is wrong.

He’s a cartoonishly evil slime..?

I will admit that I missed your original point with that response though, so I digress.

EDIT: All he does is shift around the good vs evil blame. That’s it, there’s still generic evil, just not his underlings.

Quote

And yes, the game absolutely is a phenomenal deconstruction of the genre of good Vs evil wars. Conquest shows what it truly looks like to the people fighting on that evil side. It's a moral burden that you could never be able to bear, which is why you are so offended by Conquest and how it asked you such difficult moral questions.

No it does not! You don’t hear a peep about how ANYONE on that side feels about it sans Corrin, Camilla, Leo, Azura, and maybe Xander maybe. That is it. Everyone else just listens to Corrin and that’s that.

But please correct me if I’m wrong, I’m not an authority on Fates.

When did I say Conquest offends me? It’s a video game plot...

Anyway no, I don’t feel like I was asked any moral questions. It’s literally just conquer Hoshido to expose the evil king, it’s pretty cut and dry “Garon evil so we must do evil to stop him”, it left me with absolutely nothing to think about. We are not shown how it effects them at all, that is a misrepresentation of Conquest’s plot.

11 minutes ago, SRPG Tryhard said:

There is no evil side in a war.

You are correct but I think this is looking at Conquest too hard. It’s teaching you that the people acting as soldiers and generals are not evil but they just scape goat it into people who ARE evil like typical evil story characters. Answer me this: Why is Nohr at war with Hoshido?

Edited by Sooks

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1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

Yes, but experiencing it that way does not contradict the message.

It not existing for said player seems rather contradictory to said message.

 

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

The team rocket side plot is something that is unavoidable and their conflict ties into those themes and if said player decides to visit kanto or fight red again which both events tie directly into the themes of the game

They are also reliant on the player having personal knowledge of Generation 1 for the theme of time passing to be understood, which said player explicitly doesn't have. You can't really convey the theme of time passing with only an after, it needs the player to have that before for the theme to manifest.

 

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

Another mechanic that ties into that theme that is kind of forced on the player is the way of friendship evolution. It takes time to raise a pokemon's friendship up to the max level and by doing so the player is rewarded with a strong new evolution.

Its still an optional mechanic, that is missed on most playthroughs.

 

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

And even beyond that, the game undeniably rewards the player for interacting with all this optional stuff.

SoV rewards people engaging with permadeath with unique post battle lines, and dialogues. Just because it is rewarded, doesn't make it a mandatory part of the experience.

 

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

There's a really good video analyzing the design of Gold and Silver by Tama which I'll link here:

I have already seen this prior to this posting. I even recognized said theme prior to seeing said Tama video. That it is both possible, and likely to experience this theme, does not mean that everyone that plays the game will.

 

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

And Alm will STILL say he is wrong in the end which directly contradicts the player's own experiences in that instance. 

 I am guessing you are thinking about this line

Quote

 

Alm: Don’t apologize. Just know that I need you, all right? Without your wisdom, all I know how to do is fight whatever’s in front of me. So please… Will you fight with me? Believe in me. Believe in US. Believe in our combined strength!

while ignoring all of these related lines...

Quote

 

Rudolf: I’d thought you’d have realized by now. Your true name… Your true name is Albein Alm Rudolf. You are…my one and only son.

Alm: I… What? That can’t be true… You’re lying! Why should I believe a word you say?

Rudolf: Nnngh… Be still, Alm. I haven’t time left… to explain. But I beg you to grant me one… final favor.

Alm: You want a favor from ME?

Rudolf: Take the Divine Falchion that… sealed Mila’s strength… Duma has become a thing of mindless evil. Use the blade… Destroy him… Please, my son… You must…

Alm: No, wait! Emperor Rudolf! Were you truly my father? Then I’ve just… Oh, gods… What have I done? Aah… AAAAAAAUGH!

 

Quote

 

Alm: Why, Berkut? To have finally found family after all this time… Why did it come to this?!

Berkut: Heh… I have no family…nor do I want for one. Now stop talking and finish this. End me, and you can stand alone as inheritor of Rigel’s royal blood.

Alm: I never wanted that! Don’t you get it? I’ve spent enough of my life alone!

 

Quote

 

Alm: Oh, come on! What’s wrong with personal feelings?! All of you fought this far because you hold some kind of hope for the world. It’s man’s individual hopes and fears that shape the world. That drive it. And that’s how it SHOULD be. I truly believe that. Should we let the world crumble on a god’s whim? Or his absence?

Clive: You’re right, of course, but…

Alm: I don’t want to lose anyone else I care about. I don’t want to see anyone else lost because of Duma. Don’t you feel the same, Clive?

 

Quote

 

Celica: Alm, I…

Alm: Listen, Celica. I know you sacrificed your own life to protect me and the others. But I never wanted that. I couldn’t ever be happy in a world you died to create!

A true Greek tragedy without that underpinning of failure in the gameplay, where it seems that his attempts to create the world he wants only results in him losing the things in this world most dear to him. Its only by acknowledging that no matter how perfect he is, can't take on all the burdens of fighting for, and leading the world alone, and need someone else at the top with him to share in the responsibilities and burdens of decision making, that he can secure that world he wants.

Its almost like its possible for that line to be interpreted in more than one way given different contexts.

Edited by Eltosian Kadath
Wanted to add one last quote, and fix one typo

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The game is genius in its symbolism. It's a pity it flew over so many stubborn people's heads. 

The reason Takumi is the final boss is because the true evil is hate and Takumi represents just that. What pushed people to war in Fates was not Garon but their hate. Even when Corrin refuses to follow Garon's orders to kill the prisoners of war they literally ask to be killed themselves. They hate you so much that they prefer to die than be your prisoner. Some even commit suicide.

This is why war happens in Fates. There is no such evil thing as fighting a war. Hate is the only thing that's evil.

Hate, such as what so many fools have for a video game that challenged their preconceptions.

Three houses also followed up on that theme in AM and CF. Hubert's input on that was genius: "When I was a child, I feared such trivial things as divine punishment and grudges held by the dead. These days, I fear zealots and grudges held by the living instead."

Edited by SRPG Tryhard
Quote

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@SRPG Tryhard you know what? Just ignore everything I said in response to you, I completely misunderstood what you meant by deconstructing good vs evil, so my bad. And yeah I agree with you.

Fates doesn’t offend me thoughhhhh

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1 hour ago, SRPG Tryhard said:

The mods should get a hold of things before they manage to destroy the thread with their intolerance and toxicity

i want to do literally anything besides that on thanksgiving, so i'm taking away the toys and i'll issue warnings when i feel like it

EDIT: or maybe i'll find out the reports were overblown and i'll reopen the thread, god only knows

 

children, christ, it's a fucking video game. you're better than this.

Edited by Integrity

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