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Ottservia

Stop bullying Fates. It doesn’t deserve it

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4 minutes ago, Sooks said:

That’s exactly what I’m saying.

What message did you garner from what you quoted?

This is what I’m saying.

Well minus that first part but it’s only saying that subjectivity exists and will exist, not that it varies or something.

That’s the point I’ve been trying to make this whole time. The thing is subjectivity cannot be used as some kind of magical shield to deflect criticism of your argument. There are a such thing as bad takes and bad arguments Y’know. It’s one thing to acknowledge that subjective bias is inherent and will never truly go away. It’s another thing entirely to use that as an excuse to make baseless or misinformed claims and spread misinformation.

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5 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

The thing is subjectivity cannot be used as some kind of magical shield to deflect criticism of your argument. There are a such thing as bad takes

See this is where we disagree.

Of course you can criticize arguments because, well... the whole point is arguing.

BUT that doesn’t make the other person’s argument “bad” if you have more facts than them or anything like that, because it is subjective, and so is your opinion on that matter. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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That's better.

Fates has gameplay on its side.  Introducing another weapon triangle was ambitious, and if daggers were a bit better balanced, it would've been amazing.  It also got rid of gender-locked classes, by introducing female fighters/berserkers, male pegasus knights (albeit under a different name), and the male equivalent of a magic-and-staff-on-a-horse.  The Hoshido/Nohr weapon split was a good experiment, as were the various penalties on Steel/Silver (whether or not they made a difference in the end is something I can't say).  IMO the biggest omission was some variant of the Restore staff, given the giant number of new status effects.

Never mind things like map/difficulty design, where it wasn't pure stat inflation for difficulty.  But I think someone who's legitimately analyzed Lunatic would be better qualified to speak on this point.

Characters/story fell flat on its face.  Fortunately, my expectations for FE games is quite low in regards to both.

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2 hours ago, Armagon said:

I can believe Peter Parker got bitten by the one radioactive spider that got out of the lab. I can believe Barry Allen was in a chemical lab where lightning just happend to strike one day, giving his is superspeed.

Beautiful references right here, just saying. As a fan of both, of course!

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2 hours ago, eclipse said:

That's better.

Fates has gameplay on its side.  Introducing another weapon triangle was ambitious, and if daggers were a bit better balanced, it would've been amazing.  It also got rid of gender-locked classes, by introducing female fighters/berserkers, male pegasus knights (albeit under a different name), and the male equivalent of a magic-and-staff-on-a-horse.  The Hoshido/Nohr weapon split was a good experiment, as were the various penalties on Steel/Silver (whether or not they made a difference in the end is something I can't say).  IMO the biggest omission was some variant of the Restore staff, given the giant number of new status effects.

Never mind things like map/difficulty design, where it wasn't pure stat inflation for difficulty.  But I think someone who's legitimately analyzed Lunatic would be better qualified to speak on this point.

Characters/story fell flat on its face.  Fortunately, my expectations for FE games is quite low in regards to both.

I concur, the story left alot to be desired. But I do enjoy and applaud the gameplay changes even if I don't necessarily want every single one return. One thing that irked me was the classes that used a combination of magic and physical weapons without a shared attack stat. That was cancer that only got fixed in SoV. 

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1 minute ago, PyroPlazma said:

I concur, the story left alot to be desired. But I do enjoy and applaud the gameplay changes even if I don't necessarily want every single one return. One thing that irked me was the classes that used a combination of magic and physical weapons without a shared attack stat. That was cancer that only got fixed in SoV. 

Alas, the Str/Mag split was present from Tellius.  And PoR had Sages with knives.  Yeah.  It was more noticeable in Fates, but it hardly started there!

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3 hours ago, eclipse said:

But I think someone who's legitimately analyzed Lunatic would be better qualified to speak on this point.

Not a super expert, but for Conquest the stats on Lunatic are the same as on hard iirc, the changes come from Skills, positioning, and (small) map differences (like Dragon vein).

No stat inflation, no ambush spawns, no surprises. Just pure A+ gameplay design.

1 hour ago, PyroPlazma said:

One thing that irked me was the classes that used a combination of magic and physical weapons without a shared attack stat

I think it's better that way, or those classes would've been waaaaaaay overpowered. Not to mention it makes more sense, since they also target different defences.

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

Alas, the Str/Mag split was present from Tellius.  And PoR had Sages with knives.  Yeah.  It was more noticeable in Fates, but it hardly started there!

FE4 has them, and so did most games after except GBA and Echoes

Edited by Shrimperor

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2 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

FE4 has them, and so did most games after except GBA and Echoes

Yet another reason to dislike FE4

I remember the Tellius one was kind of annoying, in terms of mixed classes, but it was sorta-sorted in RD (no more Tonberry Sages).  I don't think there was much overlap in the DS games besides the magical weapons - you were either using STR or MAG, not both.  Awakening had some, but it wasn't as pronounced as Fates in terms of truly needing both stats.  And then there is 3H, which makes my head hurt thinking about it.

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15 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

Not a super expert, but for Conquest the stats on Lunatic are the same as on hard iirc, the changes come from Skills, positioning, and (small) map differences (like Dragon vein).

Wait whaaaaaat? The stats are the same?

I need to try lunatic conquest eventually one day (not soon).

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19 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

I think it's better that way, or those classes would've been waaaaaaay overpowered. Not to mention it makes more sense, since they also target different defences.

At the very least they should have more weapons like the Levitow sword that use the opposite stat for attack power or vice versa and have said weapons available at E rank and up. Trying to level up dark knights to C rank in swords to use it was pure hell. 

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The biggest issues that I think hampered Fates from the start were the shoddy translation and the fact that you had to spend $80 for the full game.

Edited by Wraith

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15 hours ago, eclipse said:

Yet another reason to dislike FE4

I remember the Tellius one was kind of annoying, in terms of mixed classes, but it was sorta-sorted in RD (no more Tonberry Sages).  I don't think there was much overlap in the DS games besides the magical weapons - you were either using STR or MAG, not both.  Awakening had some, but it wasn't as pronounced as Fates in terms of truly needing both stats.  And then there is 3H, which makes my head hurt thinking about it.

The Str/Mag split isn't that bad in FE4. On the player side, it's limited mostly to Azelle & Arthur promoting to Mage Knight (horsie) and getting Swords, and Tailtiu, Tine, Linda, and Amid promoting to Mage Fighter (infantry) and also getting Swords. Unless you married Tailtiu to a physical man like Lex, which meant her children would have bad Mag growths and more usable Str ones, you'd never want any of these characters to touch a Sword. And let's not forget female Troubadours and Falcoknights with Staffs & Swords and Lances, but those aren't tomes and staffs are useful regardless of how bad your Mag is.

And, there is Master Knight class for Lachesis and Leif too, which can use every weapon type in the game including Staffs, and excluding Dark magic entirely and Light magic beyond the C-rank Lightning spell. Because both Lachesis and Leif have single-digit Mag growth and Master Knight has only a 7 Mag base, tomes aren't their forte. This said, near nonexistent enemy Res meant Leif could with a natural doubling and an Adept or Critical proc ORKO things with the Light Brand or Tornado tome (and, one of Bolganone, Thoron, and Tornado is certain to be free for him to take) for me.

 

On the exclusive enemy side, the Str/Mag split allows for the existence of Barons and Emperors. Emperor is exclusive to Gen 2 Arvis, and given Valflame is 70 Res-hitting attack, I can't imagine what would get him to swap to using that decorative Silver Blade in his inventory. Barons are a slightly weaker Emperor, able to use all four physical weapon types, the three Anima magics, and Staffs; they're armored, with the negates-all-damage-when-proc'ed Pavise skill. It's used for a bunch of bosses, and in the final chapter, Freege Castle is defended by an army of Barons each armed with Thoron and Silver Lances. Attacking Freege is thus annoying, albeit actually possible from a realism perspective because Baron is the lowest noble title in the British system and hence they would be most prolific.

 

FE5 keeps the Str/Mag split, and instead abolishes the Res stat, Res = Mag here. They did that to give Con the spot on the growth lists usually assigned to Res.

Mage Fighter and Master Knight no longer exist, but you can get three Mage Knight characters, albeit you have to promote one from Mage, and you can only have one of the other two. Of the Mage Knights, barring Crusader Scroll abuse for putting character growths on steroids, only Ilios can use Swords and tomes well, Miranda and Olwen have unusable Str. The one time Olwen would want use a sword is to kill her brother with the Blessed Sword he gives her, which exist solely for that purpose and does the job very well. A few enemy Barons remain, but they're thankfully never more than one at a time. And Nanna and Amalda exist as Sword-using Troubadours again, but Pegasus units no longer get Staffs on promotion.

 

So basically, true playable hybrid units, other than Ilios, didn't exist in practice in Jugdral IMO. You either had: Sword + Staff utility, pure Mages with junk Str who'd never want to touch a sword, bad Arthurs & Tines being forced to work with what their bad choice of dad gave them, and MK!Leif whose surprise magical viability owes little to his Mag stat. 

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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On 11/22/2020 at 1:19 PM, PyroPlazma said:

One thing that irked me was the classes that used a combination of magic and physical weapons without a shared attack stat. That was cancer that only got fixed in SoV. 

I actually found SoV's version of it a bit comical. Delthea picks up a sword post-promotion and is apparently super-strong compared to someone like, say, Clive, because they wanted her to deal high damage with magic.

Pretty sure SoV is the only game like that. The GBA games have only one offensive stat, but without hacking, nobody can use both physical weapons and tomes/staves IIRC, making it moot. Same with Heroes, if you count that. Judgral, Tellius, the Archaenaea remakes, Awakening, Fates, and 3H all use separate strength and magic stats. Dunno about FE1-3.

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50 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Dunno about FE1-3.

FE1 and 3 had no classes that used both physical weapons and magical tomes and staffs, and there was only one stat that served as Str for physicals and Mag for mages and healers, so basically GBA FE. Gaiden is the same as SoV, a single Atk stat that will strengthen the swords and spells alike of Priestesses.

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People have the right to criticize Fates story or any FE story. However, people should apply the same critical thinking they apply to Fates to all FE stories. 

On 11/21/2020 at 10:46 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

This thread certainly blew up.

First off: I like Fates. Conquest has the best gameplay in the series, and it has some nifty characters. Its plot isn't very good, but not the worst FE plot either... or even that close. FE has quite a lot of bad plots in my books.

I think it's perfectly fine that not everyone feels the same way I do, of course. Some people think that the gameplay has too many moving parts what with all the skills and dragon vein effects flying around and prefer something more streamlined; that's totally valid. Some people think Fates's continent not having a name is a more significant writing flaw than SoV damselfying the majority of its female cast... well, they're entitled to their opinion.

I do think Fates does sometimes suffer a bit from some of the dislike of it being weirdly toxic. Again, fine to dislike it, but I've seen places where disliking it is somehow "expected" or "objective" (as if the people who gave it its consistently high critic scores and send give its cast some of the highest number of votes in CYL year after year are all delusional) and it does get a bit frustrating to see speaking as someone who likes the game. Never had a problem with Serenes about this, though.

I think reducing a female character's quality to the amount of times they get captured/saved is dumb. Going by this logic, Micaiah is one of the worst female characters in the series lol. 

Edited by Icelerate

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15 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

(snip)

I have a lot of issues with FE4, but their handling of magic swords isn't one of them.  Glad that they found a way to make the likes of Ethlyn useful!

11 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

People have the right to criticize Fates story or any FE story. However, people should apply the same critical thinking they apply to Fates to all FE stories.

That's why I don't take a FE game's story seriously.  I love the series for its gameplay.  If I want to argue story, I'll find a game with a much smaller cast, so the characters/plot have more chances to develop.

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5 hours ago, Icelerate said:

I think reducing a female character's quality to the amount of times they get captured/saved is dumb. Going by this logic, Micaiah is one of the worst female characters in the series lol. 

It kinda depends on the character I'd say. With Caeda she's always depicted as very competent and Marth's concern about her safety irritate her and are shown as unintentionally patronizing. With Caeda its supposed to be a point that she can take care of herself and that Marth should just be a big boy about it. Given that I'd say the OVA kinda did Caeda dirty. Someone like Lilina or Corrin on the other hand more naturally drifts into that role while with the baddass Minerva its used to show she just didn't have what it takes to be a queen. 

But with Echoes(and Binding Blade) its a little different because it doesn't depends on the character. If you belong to the female half of the cast you usually just get locked up or brainwashed by default no matter who you are. That's a bit much. 

 

Quote

The biggest issues that I think hampered Fates from the start were the shoddy translation and the fact that you had to spend $80 for the full game.

I actually think the translation isn't the issue and that they did the best with what they had been given. Elise being ''technically an adult'' is a silly, clumsy statement that's more directed at the audience then at Elise, but its only there to desperately try to address the mistake of the 12 year old Elise being able to get a baby. Soleil's localisation is controversial too but that also stemmed from her Japanese design philosophy being so inherently flawed. 

There are some duds(Saizo and Beruka) but usually when the localisation gets mocked its usually in response to them trying to tackle the baggage the original script left them with. Things like skinship, Soleil or loli/shotacon which are all things that had their original forms also get relentlessly mocked. Aside from Saizo and Beruka its rarely the case that the localization withheld information like Radiant Dawn occasionally did. Its not like Garon suddenly becomes nuanced in the Japanese version. The localization did what it could.  At worst they were just clumsy in their damage control of things that were already destined not to work out. 

Edited by Etrurian emperor

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On 11/19/2020 at 6:46 PM, Ottservia said:

I dunno I just feel like people are far too dismissive of Fates and what it has to offer. 

Wait, Ottservia and I share the same opinion about this matter when it comes to Fates?

 

Edited by Wraith

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10 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I actually think the translation isn't the issue and that they did the best with what they had been given. Elise being ''technically an adult'' is a silly, clumsy statement that's more directed at the audience then at Elise, but its only there to desperately try to address the mistake of the 12 year old Elise being able to get a baby. Soleil's localisation is controversial too but that also stemmed from her Japanese design philosophy being so inherently flawed. 

There are some duds(Saizo and Beruka) but usually when the localisation gets mocked its usually in response to them trying to tackle the baggage the original script left them with. Things like skinship, Soleil or loli/shotacon which are all things that had their original forms also get relentlessly mocked. Aside from Saizo and Beruka its rarely the case that the localization withheld information like Radiant Dawn occasionally did. Its not like Garon suddenly becomes nuanced in the Japanese version. The localization did what it could.  At worst they were just clumsy in their damage control of things that were already destined not to work out. 

I’d disagree there are a lot of localization problems with Fates’s script and not all of it is them doing “damage control”. For one, I’ve heard Xander was changed very heavily in localization. The whole “two xanders” thing is largely exclusive to the international versions of the game as from what I’ve read he’s a lot more consistent in Japanese. Beyond that there are also a lot of small of changes that I don’t agree with. For example changing Corrin’s name which was originally “Kamui” in Japanese. Now this would be fine on its own and I would be fine with it if they also changed Kana’s name. Cause in the original Japanese it’s supposed to be a reference to “Kamui Kana” a storm god in ainu myth often depicted as a dragon. But that reference is not there in the international release even though they kept Kana’s name more or less the same. Then there’s Hisame’s “pickling” obsession which apparently is supposed to be a little joke on the fact that he acts like an old man in the Japanese version and pickling is very old person hobby over there but they didn’t change it so the “gimmick”/joke is kind of lost to international audiences. Then there’s Corrin and Severa’s S-support which is completely butchered in the localized version. It’s just so bad and the Japanese one is so much better.

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15 hours ago, Icelerate said:

I think reducing a female character's quality to the amount of times they get captured/saved is dumb. Going by this logic, Micaiah is one of the worst female characters in the series lol. 

Agreed. Just because a character is saved or needs help doesn't mean that they're automatically weak.

I do wish though that male characters would get the same treatment more often so it doesn't seem so one-sided. Even if it's just for appearance's sake.

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15 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

For one, I’ve heard Xander was changed very heavily in localization. The whole “two xanders” thing is largely exclusive to the international versions of the game as from what I’ve read he’s a lot more consistent in Japanese.

Do you have a source for this? I just did a quick check of some of the localization rants from the Torrential Downpour people, and Xander wasn't one of the people they were pointing out, and if there really was an issue with Xander I would expect them to rant about it...

 

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

Cause in the original Japanese it’s supposed to be a reference to “Kamui Kana” a storm god in ainu myth often depicted as a dragon. But that reference is not there in the international release even though they kept Kana’s name more or less the same. Then there’s Hisame’s “pickling” obsession which apparently is supposed to be a little joke on the fact that he acts like an old man in the Japanese version and pickling is very old person hobby over there but they didn’t change it so the “gimmick”/joke is kind of lost to international audiences.

Just out of curiosity, what culturally understandable naming duo would you have preferred for Carrin & Kana, or more culturally understandable old person interest for Hisame?

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On 11/22/2020 at 12:43 PM, Armagon said:

The best examples here is superheroes, especially the ones who went from ordinary folks -> heroic life. I can believe Peter Parker got bitten by the one radioactive spider that got out of the lab. I can believe Barry Allen was in a chemical lab where lightning just happened to strike one day, giving his is superspeed.

Incidentally, you just described something that I'm not really a fan of in superhero stories. As much as I enjoy a good superhero story, I'm not a fan of how western superheroes just "get" their powers so-to-speak without having to work for it. Even Batman with all his detective skills and martial arts wouldn't have gotten nearly as far as he does if he hadn't been born into a huge sum of wealth. It is something I can easily overlook, but I do prefer when heroes have to work in some way for their abilities. One thing I really liked about the Iron Man movie was that it spent time showing him making the different parts of his suit and experimenting with different parts. Similarly, one thing I liked about the Captain America movie was that he was deliberately chosen for receiving the serum. 

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6 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Incidentally, you just described something that I'm not really a fan of in superhero stories. As much as I enjoy a good superhero story, I'm not a fan of how western superheroes just "get" their powers so-to-speak without having to work for it. Even Batman with all his detective skills and martial arts wouldn't have gotten nearly as far as he does if he hadn't been born into a huge sum of wealth. It is something I can easily overlook, but I do prefer when heroes have to work in some way for their abilities. One thing I really liked about the Iron Man movie was that it spent time showing him making the different parts of his suit and experimenting with different parts. Similarly, one thing I liked about the Captain America movie was that he was deliberately chosen for receiving the serum. 

I can see where you're coming and I would agree on paper but I do like how for a lot of superheroes, they kinda have to learn how to use their powers. That or they realize it didn't solve all their problems. Spider-Man can apply to both of those examples. Or they just flat out see their new powers as a curse, at least early on as is the case with Cyborg.

So while it is cool seeing soon-to-be superheroes earn their status, I do also enjoy seeing superheroes learn how to adapt to them and the whole "with great power comes great responsibility" thing.

 

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37 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Do you have a source for this? I just did a quick check of some of the localization rants from the Torrential Downpour people, and Xander wasn't one of the people they were pointing out, and if there really was an issue with Xander I would expect them to rant about it...

Apparently there was a tumblr post that went into detail but the post itself no longer exists. I did read a translation of the original Japanese support with him and Corrin and while it was pretty similar for the most part there were a couple notable differences like Xander never mentions being strong enough to stand up to Garon in the original Japanese support which is odd.

https://pastebin.com/xvDXm5eV

37 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Just out of curiosity, what culturally understandable naming duo would you have preferred for Carrin & Kana, or more culturally understandable old person interest for Hisame?

Personally I would’ve just kept the reference as is especially given the limitations of naming Corrin’s character because it needs to be gender neutral. There aren’t many dragons in western myth that would fit, at least that I know of anyway. The leviathan from hebrew myth would be the most accurate but I’m not sure how you would make that work. As for Hisame, well maybe fishing? I would say cross words but that doesn’t really work. 
 

Speaking of fates and its cultural references. There’s a lot of buddhism symbolism in fates like a lot of it. Hell the hilt of the Yato is identical to that of a Vajra. Anankos’s statue face looks like the face of a buddha statue. You could even argue that Corrin’s character is a direct parallel to the origin stories of Buddhism where a sheltered naive prince wanders outside for the first time and decides to do something about all the world’s suffering. You could even the idea of reincarnation into it as with each subsequent play through on the different paths Corrin learns more and more about the truth of what’s going until they reach the final path where they “reach enlightenment” and find out the full truth in revelation.

Edited by Ottservia

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1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

Incidentally, you just described something that I'm not really a fan of in superhero stories. As much as I enjoy a good superhero story, I'm not a fan of how western superheroes just "get" their powers so-to-speak without having to work for it. Even Batman with all his detective skills and martial arts wouldn't have gotten nearly as far as he does if he hadn't been born into a huge sum of wealth. It is something I can easily overlook, but I do prefer when heroes have to work in some way for their abilities. One thing I really liked about the Iron Man movie was that it spent time showing him making the different parts of his suit and experimenting with different parts. Similarly, one thing I liked about the Captain America movie was that he was deliberately chosen for receiving the serum. 

Apologies if i am misunderstanding the point of your post, but i personally don't understand why you would look for or expect messages of hard work and effort in a superhero story instead of say, a sport story or something of the like. Superhero stories, most often, don't have the characters work for their powers because the powers aren't there to be a gift or a positive thing, but rather as something neutral, which is where the superhero and supervillain dynamic prevalent in so many stories comes from, that when you are in a special circumstances that gives you power no one else has, the question becomes of whether you use it for good or for evil. Which is again, why it doesn't make a lot of sense to write a traditional superhero story with themes of hard work and effort, as most of them are trying to tell the stories about people in special circumstances and how these special circumstances affect and influence them, said special circumstances being something that can't really be replicated most of the time.

What im trying to say with this rambling is, well, that from the very concept most superhero stories were never meant to be tales of hard work and effort and are often far more so about agency and morality, about doing right with what you have regardless of what that even is, be it god-like superpowers or fighting skills you acquired on your own. So i don't really ever expect them to focus on hard work or effort as themes.

Edited by Murozaki
Fixing a typo plus adding some stuff.

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