Dragons in the various FE Games

[L3xandr3]

This topic got me thinking. So, FE has a lot of Dragons. I’m half delirious on pain killer currently, so don’t mind the rambling.

12 Dragon Gods (Jugdral and Fates). Naga (Divine) and Grima (Kinda Earth) in Awakening.

At least 3 Dragon Tibes (Elibe): Fire, Ice, and Divine.

1 known (Divin/Fire?) Dragon Tribe (Magvel).

At least 5 Dragon Tribes (Archenea): Fire, Ice, Mage, Earth, and Divine. Wyverns suspected to be a degenerate tribe.

Fates has Silent (Water) Dragons (Corrin, Kana, Anankos, etc.), Astral Dragons (Moro- never seen but does stuff- , and kinda Lilith) and the Rainbow Sage (Divine perhaps? Maybe a Light Tribe?).

 

Dragonstones (Indicators of tribes?) in Archenea include: Firestone, Icestone, Earthstone, Flyingstone (Wyvern tribe?), Magestone, and Divinestone. Unused Darkstone (A corrupted Earthstone, mayhap?).

 

So that’s

Divine Tribe (Naga, Duma, Mila, Tiki. Nowi/Nah and the Rainbow Sage?)

Earth Tribe (Medeus, Loptous, and Grima- technically a Human/Dragon hybrid made from Alchemy)

Fire Tribe (Bantu, Salamand- FE4’s Fire God)

Silent/Water Tribe (Corrin, Kana, Anankos. Lilith?)

Ice Tribe (Ninian and Nils)

Flying/Wind/Wyvern Tribe (Forsety- Fe4’s Wind God. Maybe Nowi/Nah?)

Mage Tribe (Various Archenean bosses)

Astral Tribe (Moro. Lilith?)

Tribes 9 - 12 are unaccounted for. Maybe a Light Tribe? Are Flying and Wind Tribes separate? Are the Dagons of SoV members of the Ice/Water Tribe? Am I overthinking this?

And then there’s Tellius and Fodlan. Neither of them fit into the other lores very well. Tellius has the Red (Fire), White (Mage?), and Black (Earth?) Dragon Laguz, and Fodlan has the 23 various Children of the Goddess. Sothis is maybe a dragon? Heroes has her as a Red Dragon, but she doesn’t transform, so…

What are you guy’s thoughts on this subject?

 

As a side note, isn’t Jugdral on the same planet as Archenea and Valentia? And why do I recall that FE4 happens ~1,000 years before the Archenea and Valentia games stories?

[Sir Gerwald of Vallora]

Wooh,  here's my favorite topic in FE. The only things I can think to add right now are Grima's official designation was "Dark Dragon" as he was created through Dark Alchemy by mixing Human Fetal tissue with that of a dead Earth Dragon. I also believe it was confirmed that Nowi was a divine dragon, due to her and Tiki having identical dragon forms, her Tiara being the same that Naga is seen wearing, and the early draft of the game where it is believed she was intended to preform the Awakening with Chrom, not Tiki. Also, you are correct, Jugdral and Archanea coexist with a thousand year time gap. 

Edit: Also just remembered Nowi and Nah can both use Dragonstone+, which is incredibly visually similar to the Divinestone, so that could be further used as evidence to their being Divine Dragons.

Edited November 21, 2020 by Sir Gerwald of Vallora

[L3xandr3]

2 hours ago, Sir Gerwald of Vallora said:

I also believe it was confirmed that Nowi was a divine dragon, due to her and Tiki having identical dragon forms, her Tiara being the same that Naga is seen wearing, and the early draft of the game where it is believed she was intended to preform the Awakening with Chrom, not Tiki.

Hm. I actually didn't know that.

Also, I wonder if we're putting more thought into this than IS is.

[eclipse]

And this is in the wrong subforum.  I'll move it to where it belongs.

[Sir Gerwald of Vallora]

17 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

Hm. I actually didn't know that.

Also, I wonder if we're putting more thought into this than IS is.

Well, the amount of thought they put in was basically "she's a Manakete", so I think we already did. But I think the fact they didn't give her any specific tribe and all this evidence I think we can assume she's a divine dragon. Although, there is the fact she mentions she's from somewhere, "all the way to the left" in one of her supports, which implies Valm/Valentia, and her hair is very similar to Mila's hair introduced in Shadows of Valentia, so some people thoerize she's decended from Mila.

[L3xandr3]

3 hours ago, eclipse said:

And this is in the wrong subforum.  I'll move it to where it belongs.

I thought I did put this in general FE. Ok, sorry I guess.

3 hours ago, Sir Gerwald of Vallora said:

Well, the amount of thought they put in was basically "she's a Manakete", so I think we already did. But I think the fact they didn't give her any specific tribe and all this evidence I think we can assume she's a divine dragon. Although, there is the fact she mentions she's from somewhere, "all the way to the left" in one of her supports, which implies Valm/Valentia, and her hair is very similar to Mila's hair introduced in Shadows of Valentia, so some people thoerize she's decended from Mila.

That... I really should go back through and read some supports. It's been 2~3 years since I did last. Of course the reason I don't read back through them is because of all the terrible supports. I don't have anything else to do at present, so sure, I'll go read some supports, see if I can dredge up anything interseting.

[L3xandr3]

Awakening’s World (Archenea, Valentia, and Jugdral)

M’k, so the Awakening World has the most developed Dragon lore. The timeline concerning Dragons (as far as I can tell) is as follows. I may as well use the established Jugdral Calendar.

 

Before recorded history, Degeneration becomes a problem. We can infer this happened before the destruction of Thebes, because Duma & Mila appear in human form during Valentia, after they were Banished, and Mila appears to be holding a dragonstone in the cutscene where Rudolf invades her temple.

The Alchemist Forneus creates what would eventually become Grima, which (according to the lore tablets in Thebes in SoV) he did using Earth Dragon blood, various other materials, and after 40 days- his own blood.

Duma attacked and destroyed the city of Thebes. Maybe this was brought on by word of Forneus’ Creation?

2 different Dragon Wars: Divine vs Degenerate so Naga could protect mankind, and Naga vs Duma & Mila, started over Duma’s destruction of Thebes. We don’t know which came first. Ends with Duma & Mila being banished to Valentia and the Degenerate Dragons being (mostly) sealed in what would become the Dragon’s Table.

001: Beginning of recorded human history.

440: Galle forms a blood bond with Loptous.

448: Loptrian Empire founded.

632: Miracle of Darna. 12 Dragons form blood bonds with those who would become the 12 Crusaders.

648: Death of the last Lotyrian Emperor.

761 (?): Birth of Julius.

768 (?): Julius becomes Loptous’ vessel, which attracts Forseti’s attention(?) It’s a bit vague. Forseti was definitely involved in Lewyn’s revival, but we don’t know if it was immediately after the Battle of Belhalla, so I’d guess he took note when Loptous was reborn.

777: Gen 2 Genealogy- Forseti interferes in the rebellion against the reborn Loptous Empire.

780 (?): Final holy war ends with Loptous’ defeat.

1,680: Medeus forms the Dohlr Empire. Naga blood bonds (?) Anri, who then uses Falchion to ‘kill’ Medeus.

1,780: Events of Shadow Dragon.

1,781 or 1782: Events of Gaiden/SoV.

1,783: Events of Mystery of the Emblem.

2,783 (?): Rise of Grima and the First Exalt. I think it was said somewhere that Grima rose up about 1,000 years after Marth killed Medeus, but I’m not certain.

3,783 (?): Events of Awakening.

That’s a lot of lore. I could get into the minor details, but I will not. I do have a couple of theories, though, and would like to see what you guys think.

 

(Theory) Grima is the sum of Forneus’ Creation and the Degenerate Dragons sealed in the Dragon’s Table. More like than not, the Creation consumed those sealed dragons when it became Grima. This would explain Grima’s sudden appearance in history 1,000 years before Awakening, as no one had noticed such a terrifyingly powerful creature before.

(Theory) The Grimleal are the descendants of some remaining Loptous worshipers. It would explain the Deadlords serving the Grimleal, and (to an extent) how they have some of the 12 Holy Weapons. Mayhap Grima is influenced by Loptous’ hatred for mankind.

[Acacia Sgt]

4 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

Awakening’s World (Archenea, Valentia, and Jugdral)

Before recorded history, Degeneration becomes a problem. We can infer this happened before the destruction of Thebes, because Duma & Mila appear in human form during Valentia, after they were Banished, and Mila appears to be holding a dragonstone in the cutscene where Rudolf invades her temple.

No, it can't happen before. Duma got banished around eighteen hundred years before the Degeneration becomes a thing. What Mila is holding isn't stated to be a dragonstone. To start with, it'd be a Firestone, since it was red in colored, but Mila isn't a Fire Dragon, she's a Divine; and Divinestones are grayish white. Also, the fact Duma and Mila are also degenerating shows they never became Manaketes. Having a human form doesn't mean they became Manaketes. In fact, being banished long before Degeneration happened would mean they'd have no idea that happened. So less reason to become Manaketes.

Also, Degeneration begins at around year 180 of the Gran Calendar, so this happens after recorded history. At least for Jugdral.

4 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

The Alchemist Forneus creates what would eventually become Grima, which (according to the lore tablets in Thebes in SoV) he did using Earth Dragon blood, various other materials, and after 40 days- his own blood.

Forneus used the blood of a Divine Dragon, not Earth.

4 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

2 different Dragon Wars: Divine vs Degenerate so Naga could protect mankind, and Naga vs Duma & Mila, started over Duma’s destruction of Thebes. We don’t know which came first. Ends with Duma & Mila being banished to Valentia and the Degenerate Dragons being (mostly) sealed in what would become the Dragon’s Table.

As stated, it was Naga and Duma's quarrel (Mila wasn't involved other than willingly joining her brother in exile) that happened first. Almost two thousand years later, Degeneration begins; and around two hundred and fifty years after that, the Divine vs Earth war happens.

4 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

440: Galle forms a blood bond with Loptous.

This event correlates to Archanea Year -740. The reason Loptyr/Loptous makes a blood bond with Galle is to avoid Degeneration without becoming a Manakete. As it were, Loptyr still died. What happens is that an imprint/echo of his being became impregnated in the Dark Tome, and through possession of Major Blood vessels, he could continue to exist and interact with the world.

4 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

768 (?): Julius becomes Loptous’ vessel, which attracts Forseti’s attention(?) It’s a bit vague. Forseti was definitely involved in Lewyn’s revival, but we don’t know if it was immediately after the Battle of Belhalla, so I’d guess he took note when Loptous was reborn.

Forseti never came back. His situation is the same as Loptyr's. Just like how Loptyr's desire to avoid Degeneration left an echo/imprint of his being in the Dark Tome, so did Forseti's desire to help the humans of Jugdral manifested in a similar phenomenon in the Wind Tome. It's this imprint that arguably revived (since it's not exactly clear this happened) and possessed Lewyn. The real Forseti's whereabouts are unknown. He's likely dead. Specially if he was of the Divine tribe (granting a Wind Tome doesn't mean he himself has Wind powers;  he likely just could wield magic in general just like how Gotoh is a master mage while being a Divine; there is no Wind Clan among Archanean dragons anyway).

4 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

(Theory) Grima is the sum of Forneus’ Creation and the Degenerate Dragons sealed in the Dragon’s Table. More like than not, the Creation consumed those sealed dragons when it became Grima. This would explain Grima’s sudden appearance in history 1,000 years before Awakening, as no one had noticed such a terrifyingly powerful creature before.

This is very possible, and I think it was somewhat confirmed in The Art of Awakening. The fact he got sealed in the Dragon's Table where the Earth Dragons were also sealed lends credence to the possibility.

4 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

(Theory) The Grimleal are the descendants of some remaining Loptous worshipers. It would explain the Deadlords serving the Grimleal, and (to an extent) how they have some of the 12 Holy Weapons. Mayhap Grima is influenced by Loptous’ hatred for mankind.

Could be. Though the time gap is just too big. Not to mention, since Loptyr was never sealed with the other Earth Dragons (Loptyr himself was also an Earth Dragon), there's no way Grima absorbed anything of him. There's plenty of hatred with the sealed Earth Dragons, though.

Edited November 22, 2020 by Acacia Sgt

[L3xandr3]

22 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

No, it can't happen before. Duma got banished around eighteen hundred years before the Degeneration becomes a thing. What Mila is holding isn't stated to be a dragonstone. To start with, it'd be a Firestone, since it was red in colored, but Mila isn't a Fire Dragon, she's a Divine; and Divinestones are grayish white. Also, the fact Duma and Mila are also degenerating shows they never became Manaketes. Having a human form doesn't mean they became Manaketes. In fact, being banished long before Degeneration happened would mean they'd have no idea that happened. So less reason to become Manaketes.

Hm... These are valid points. However,

Having a human form doesn't mean they became Manaketes.

is not quite correct. That is the definition of a Manakete: the Human-ish form of a Dragon is a Manakete. Of course, in universe, it appears the terms 'Dragon' and 'Manakete' are interchangeable for Manaketes. Not for Degenerate Dragons, seeing as they are trapped in their Dragon form. But that's just me nitpicking.

Dragons took on a Human form because they where Degenerating. That would mean that Duma & Mila are Manaketes. But they're degenerating. So their not Manaketes. But why do they have a Human form then?

Ah, damn it! Now I'm torn between thinking you're right on this one and thinking that the 'Degeneration -> Manakete is human-ish form -> Duma & Mila are Manaketes because they have a human form. This is gonna take a bit to mull through...

25 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Also, Degeneration begins at around year 180 of the Gran Calendar, so this happens after recorded history. At least for Jugdral.

As stated, it was Naga and Duma's quarrel (Mila wasn't involved other than willingly joining her brother in exile) that happened first. Almost two thousand years later, Degeneration begins; and around two hundred and fifty years after that, the Divine vs Earth war happens.

I'm not entirely certain of events before the beginning of the Jugral (or Gran, if you please) Calendar. Do you have a source handy for that one? Of course, I haven't listed any sources, but I can get some... In a bit.

29 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

This event correlates to Archanea Year -740. The reason Loptyr/Loptous makes a blood bond with Galle is to avoid Degeneration without becoming a Manakete. As it were, Loptyr still died. What happens is that an imprint/echo of his being became impregnated in the Dark Tome, and through possession of Major Blood vessels, he could continue to exist and interact with the world.

Forseti never came back. His situation is the same as Loptyr's. Just like how Loptyr's desire to avoid Degeneration left an echo/imprint of his being in the Dark Tome, so did Forseti's desire to help the humans of Jugdral manifested in a similar phenomenon in the Wind Tome. It's this imprint that arguably revived (since it's not exactly clear this happened) and possessed Lewyn.

Eh... The whole possession thing GotHW has going on is a bit more than vague. Julius strait up says he's Loptous, and Lewyn has knowledge that no human on Jugral should have. i.e. the truth behind the Loptyrian Empire and the Crusaders, knowledge that was lost to time/was never discovered.

It might be a lingering bit of the Dragon's wills (i.e. altering the wielder's personality), or it could be a bit of themselves (i.e. straight up possession by the Dragons). I don't think it's ever confirmed either way, but it points more towards possession than an echo.

35 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

The real Forseti's whereabouts are unknown. He's likely dead. Specially if he was of the Divine tribe (granting a Wind Tome doesn't mean he himself has Wind powers;  he likely just could wield magic in general just like how Gotoh is a master mage while being a Divine; there is no Wind Clan among Archanean dragons anyway).

 

On 11/20/2020 at 5:25 AM, L3xandr3 said:

At least 5 Dragon Tribes (Archenea): Fire, Ice, Mage, Earth, and Divine. Wyverns suspected to be a degenerate tribe.

Dragonstones (Indicators of tribes?) in Archenea include: Firestone, Icestone, Earthstone, Flyingstone (Wyvern tribe?), Magestone, and Divinestone.

If we are to infer, then there once was a Wyvern/Wind Tribe, but it's true that isn't confirmed. On the other hand, Wyvern doesn't necessarily mean Wind, but still.

 

As a side tangent, is Forseti called a Divine Dragon by another Dragon? Could just be humans labeling any powerful Dragon as 'Divine'. Could also explain why Grima was made from 'Divine' blood, while he's is confirmed to be descended from Earth Dragons (descended from, not obtained power from). Quite an assumption, I know, but stranger things have happened in FE.

[Acacia Sgt]

29 minutes ago, L3xandr3 said:

Hm... These are valid points. However,

Having a human form doesn't mean they became Manaketes.

is not quite correct. That is the definition of a Manakete: the Human-ish form of a Dragon is a Manakete. Of course, in universe, it appears the terms 'Dragon' and 'Manakete' are interchangeable for Manaketes. Not for Degenerate Dragons, seeing as they are trapped in their Dragon form. But that's just me nitpicking.

Dragons took on a Human form because they where Degenerating. That would mean that Duma & Mila are Manaketes. But they're degenerating. So their not Manaketes. But why do they have a Human form then?

Ah, damn it! Now I'm torn between thinking you're right on this one and thinking that the 'Degeneration -> Manakete is human-ish form -> Duma & Mila are Manaketes because they have a human form. This is gonna take a bit to mull through...

The fact they could assume the form at all shows they are capable of shapeshifting, Manakete transition or not. We even see it with Xane, who is quite liberal in his shapeshifting ability, while other dragons simply stick to a single human form. All that was required for their transition to 'Manaketes' was severing themselves from their own power, which took physical shape and became known as Dragonstones. They could've kept the dragon form, but decided to assume human form. Duma and Mila assumed human form in order to live among the humans, but the fact they didn't severe themselves from their power means they didn't turn into Manaketes, and thus became succeptible to Degeneation.

29 minutes ago, L3xandr3 said:

I'm not entirely certain of events before the beginning of the Jugral (or Gran, if you please) Calendar. Do you have a source handy for that one? Of course, I haven't listed any sources, but I can get some... In a bit.

People have calculated this before.

https://fireemblemwiki.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Archanea,_Valentia_and_Jugdral

One such venture. Has sources you can check out. Some leading back here to Serenes.

29 minutes ago, L3xandr3 said:

Eh... The whole possession thing GotHW has going on is a bit more than vague. Julius strait up says he's Loptous, and Lewyn has knowledge that no human on Jugral should have. i.e. the truth behind the Loptyrian Empire and the Crusaders, knowledge that was lost to time/was never discovered.

It might be a lingering bit of the Dragon's wills (i.e. altering the wielder's personality), or it could be a bit of themselves (i.e. straight up possession by the Dragons). I don't think it's ever confirmed either way, but it points more towards possession than an echo.

It's explained in the Designer Notes.

https://serenesforest.net/general/designers-notes/holy-war/playing-guide/

Q: We’re clear about Narga’s intentions, but why did Holsety decide to help?

A: Loputousu, Narga and Holsety held different positions compared to the other dragons. Loputousu’s plan was obvious – “to use Bishop Galle to wreak vengeance on the humans”, which is why he formed a blood pact with Galle. The holy dark tome Loputousu contained Loputousu’s overpowering hatred and resentment towards humans, and was able to control the human who broke its seal (namely Bishop Galle’s descendants, those who inherited large amounts of the original pact-former’s blood). So it was, a human who possessed Loputousu’s strength and will was born. (The final boss of Genealogy of the Holy War was his victim.) In resistance, Narga gave the holy light tome, which he transferred his own will and power into, to Saint Heim. For Narga, who had always disliked interfering with the human world, this was a very worrying decision.

Holsety was younger and held a higher level of good will and sympathy for the humans compared to other dragons. If he had the chance, he would even reside at Jugdral and protect the humans there. However, he was convinced by Narga that it was silly to stay, so he had no choice but to return to Akaneia. Still, his passion and will was inherited strongly within the wind magic tome Holsety. For this reason, the humans who inherit the Holsety tome inherit Holsety’s will as well as his power.

As for the other 10 weapons, when they pass on their power to their successors, they do not affect the user’s personality. This is why within the Genealogy of Gods, there are 10 holy weapons whose name does not match up exactly with their god.

Loptyr, Naga, and Forseti alone had such strong wills and passion they influenced the weapons they forged from the blood binds they made. This imprint is them, from a certain point of view, but also not them. Hence echo of their wills. It's both. The echo/imprint possesses the wielder.

Q: Is the Levin in the 2nd half of the game the same person as Holsety?

A: I already mentioned previously how the Holsety tome would have a strong effect on the the user’s will. As soon as Levin obtained the Holsety tome from his mother, Queen Rahna, his body already contained another person’s persona. The question of who Levin from the 2nd half is doesn’t have a clear answer, but compared to the previous Levin his personality has undergone an obvious change. Even whether Levin’s own persona is alive or not is unclear.

Honestly, there's a good avenue to imply Levin was truly gone. That Forseti only revived the body and then inhabited it. He could pretend to be Lewyn since the physical brain would still house the memories, but ultimately the original Lewyn had already passed on, and only the echo of Forseti remained. But, this is just a theory, as not even Kaga outright stated what went on in there. Other than the Forseti echo was definitely in Leweyn's body. Whether alone or with the real one... who knows.

29 minutes ago, L3xandr3 said:

If we are to infer, then there once was a Wyvern/Wind Tribe, but it's true that isn't confirmed. On the other hand, Wyvern doesn't necessarily mean Wind, but still.

Not once, they're still there. We only see Degenerated ones, but the fact Flyingstones exist show some did became Manaketes. And they're not. The Wyvern/Flying clan has no wind powers whatsoever. In fact, they breath fire, as we see them do in Mystery, and still do thousands of years later, as Cherche demonstrates with Minerva. The only types of dragons that exist in Archanea/Valentia/Jugdral are Divine, Earth, Fire, Ice, Wyvern, Mage, and Dagon. Fun fact, Mystery was going to have Sea Dragons, but they were scrapped. It's likely the developers of SoV decided to bring them back, hence Dagons.

Just as a note, but since they are two completely settings, the 12 Dragons of Fates and their types have no impact in the types that exist in Archanea/Valentia/Jugdral.

29 minutes ago, L3xandr3 said:

As a side tangent, is Forseti called a Divine Dragon by another Dragon? Could just be humans labeling any powerful Dragon as 'Divine'. Could also explain why Grima was made from 'Divine' blood, while he's is confirmed to be descended from Earth Dragons (descended from, not obtained power from). Quite an assumption, I know, but stranger things have happened in FE.

There's no indication of Forseti's tribe. Being Divine is only an inference since we only have evidence of Divines and Mage dragons wielding magic in general, as an explanation of how he granted powerful Wind magic to humans. So he could be a Mage dragon instead.

Descended is used since he was basically left to stew a thousand years with the Sealed Earth Dragons. So yes, it could be the Grima persona only came to be after that. While before he was only "The Creation". In which case he only had Divine Dragon blood, and not of any other

[joevar]

1 hour ago, L3xandr3 said:

Dragons took on a Human form because they where Degenerating. That would mean that Duma & Mila are Manaketes. But they're degenerating. So their not Manaketes. But why do they have a Human form then?

i've read somewhere they mention Dragon in archanea took human form because of an event took place so long ago. then there's the fact that in Elibe, Dragon forced to take dragon form and containing their power in dragon stone because of Ending Winter. its a bit of stretch saying those two worlds connected, but maybe the explanation would be something similar happen in Archanea. (though if IS actually thought of such an event is anyone guess)

 

also since you mention Dragonstone, dont forget to include, Dark Divinestone from Idunn, for dark (or corrupted) divine dragon.

Edited November 22, 2020 by joevar

[L3xandr3]

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Q: We’re clear about Narga’s intentions, but why did Holsety decide to help?

A: Loputousu, Narga and Holsety held different positions compared to the other dragons. Loputousu’s plan was obvious – “to use Bishop Galle to wreak vengeance on the humans”, which is why he formed a blood pact with Galle. The holy dark tome Loputousu contained Loputousu’s overpowering hatred and resentment towards humans, and was able to control the human who broke its seal (namely Bishop Galle’s descendants, those who inherited large amounts of the original pact-former’s blood). So it was, a human who possessed Loputousu’s strength and will was born. (The final boss of Genealogy of the Holy War was his victim.) In resistance, Narga gave the holy light tome, which he transferred his own will and power into, to Saint Heim. For Narga, who had always disliked interfering with the human world, this was a very worrying decision.

Holsety was younger and held a higher level of good will and sympathy for the humans compared to other dragons. If he had the chance, he would even reside at Jugdral and protect the humans there. However, he was convinced by Narga that it was silly to stay, so he had no choice but to return to Akaneia. Still, his passion and will was inherited strongly within the wind magic tome Holsety. For this reason, the humans who inherit the Holsety tome inherit Holsety’s will as well as his power.

As for the other 10 weapons, when they pass on their power to their successors, they do not affect the user’s personality. This is why within the Genealogy of Gods, there are 10 holy weapons whose name does not match up exactly with their god.

Loptyr, Naga, and Forseti alone had such strong wills and passion they influenced the weapons they forged from the blood binds they made. This imprint is them, from a certain point of view, but also not them. Hence echo of their wills. It's both. The echo/imprint possesses the wielder.

Q: Is the Levin in the 2nd half of the game the same person as Holsety?

A: I already mentioned previously how the Holsety tome would have a strong effect on the the user’s will. As soon as Levin obtained the Holsety tome from his mother, Queen Rahna, his body already contained another person’s persona. The question of who Levin from the 2nd half is doesn’t have a clear answer, but compared to the previous Levin his personality has undergone an obvious change. Even whether Levin’s own persona is alive or not is unclear.

Honestly, there's a good avenue to imply Levin was truly gone. That Forseti only revived the body and then inhabited it. He could pretend to be Lewyn since the physical brain would still house the memories, but ultimately the original Lewyn had already passed on, and only the echo of Forseti remained. But, this is just a theory, as not even Kaga outright stated what went on in there. Other than the Forseti echo was definitely in Leweyn's body. Whether alone or with the real one... who knows.

Huh. The 'echo' sounds more like possession that altered personalities to me. At least from what I gathered in that bit you quoted. I really should go back through and read the various dev team's notes.

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Descended is used since he was basically left to stew a thousand years with the Sealed Earth Dragons. So yes, it could be the Grima persona only came to be after that. While before he was only "The Creation". In which case he only had Divine Dragon blood, and not of any other

Descendant:

1. a person or animal that is descended from a specific ancestor; an offspring.
2. something deriving in appearance, function, or general character from an earlier form.
   an adherent who follows closely the teachings, methods, practices, etc.,
3. of an earlier master, as in art, music, philosophy, etc.; disciple.

So, yeah, that doesn't help much. Up to interpretation, I guess?

 

37 minutes ago, joevar said:

i've read somewhere they mention Dragon in archanea took human form because of an event took place so long ago.

Because they started to Degenerate. To stay in Dragon form would cause them to go mad and begin destructive rampages.

 

39 minutes ago, joevar said:

then there's the fact that in Elibe, Dragon forced to take dragon form and containing their power in dragon stone because of Ending Winter.

That is correct.

 

40 minutes ago, joevar said:

its a bit of stretch saying those two worlds connected, but maybe the explanation would be something similar happen in Archanea. (though if IS actually thought of such an event is anyone guess)

IS does tend to reuse certain themes through out the series, yes. But in this case, the same effect has different causes.

 

 

[Acacia Sgt]

6 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

Descendant:

1. a person or animal that is descended from a specific ancestor; an offspring.
2. something deriving in appearance, function, or general character from an earlier form.
   an adherent who follows closely the teachings, methods, practices, etc.,
3. of an earlier master, as in art, music, philosophy, etc.; disciple.

So, yeah, that doesn't help much. Up to interpretation, I guess?

Sounds like it could be meanings 2 and 3.

7 hours ago, joevar said:

i've read somewhere they mention Dragon in archanea took human form because of an event took place so long ago. then there's the fact that in Elibe, Dragon forced to take dragon form and containing their power in dragon stone because of Ending Winter. its a bit of stretch saying those two worlds connected, but maybe the explanation would be something similar happen in Archanea. (though if IS actually thought of such an event is anyone guess)

6 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

Because they started to Degenerate. To stay in Dragon form would cause them to go mad and begin destructive rampages.

That is correct.

IS does tend to reuse certain themes through out the series, yes. But in this case, the same effect has different causes.

While similar, there is one key difference: Archanean dragons would have their minds degenerate until they became basically animals. Elibean dragons just outright died.

While people for years have tried to stablish a connection, ultimately the fact the effects are different clearly show it wasn't the same thing.

7 hours ago, joevar said:

also since you mention Dragonstone, dont forget to include, Dark Divinestone from Idunn, for dark (or corrupted) divine dragon.

Fun little fact, her class is the same as Archanea's Mage Dragons. 魔竜 or Maryu.

魔 can mean both Magic and Demon. The context in both uses is different, but it can make one wonder...

[joevar]

21 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Fun little fact, her class is the same as Archanea's Mage Dragons. 魔竜 or Maryu.

魔 can mean both Magic and Demon. The context in both uses is different, but it can make one wonder...

oh boi, not this confusing thing about localization again 😞 . its like im looking at Eiyuu and Yuusha which both can be translated as hero but somehow can be different and used at the same time in one sentence pointing two different things

what about the dragonstone? since im specifically saying that. not her class/race since she's just Divine Dragon at the end of the day. its not like dog magically transform into wolves just because their mind believe so. (and revert back to dog because they remember it, lol)

[Acacia Sgt]

3 minutes ago, joevar said:

oh boi, not this confusing thing about localization again 😞 . its like im looking at Eiyuu and Yuusha which both can be translated as hero but somehow can be different and used at the same time in one sentence pointing two different things

what about the dragonstone? since im specifically saying that. not her class/race since she's just Divine Dragon at the end of the day. its not like dog magically transform into wolves just because their mind believe so. (and revert back to dog because they remember it, lol)

魔竜石

Same thing. Magic/Demon Dragon Stone. The item goes unused anyway.

[joevar]

9 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

魔竜石

Same thing. Magic/Demon Dragon Stone. The item goes unused anyway.

the item goes unused, but its there, while both cipher and heroes both shows she indeed use it.

so it should be included in the first post i guess? @L3xandr3

Edited November 22, 2020 by joevar

[L3xandr3]

Technical difficulties, please stand by. Damn it, SF. Stop deleting my posts. Ok, so here I go again.

6 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Sounds like it could be meanings 2 and 3.

I'd say more 1 than 2 or 3. Grima doesn't quite have the same motivation as Medeus. Medeus hates humans because they discriminate against Manaketes. Meanwhile, I found a quote from Grima that sheds some light on his ideologies:

Spoiler

You know full well how I detest humans. They have no qualms asking for divine assistance when it meets their fickle needs... But how quick they are to shun their benefactors once they get what they desire. They become arrogant and make the same mistakes repeatedly, incapable of learning the folly of their ways. They claim their actions are for the good of others, but that's merely a show of self-indulgence. Humans are selfish. And the ugliness of mankind has turned me repulsive. It's the world that wants me to be evil.

(to be fair the quote is from Heroes) So Grima hates mankind because of their impiety and arrogance. Same effect can have different causes. Both hate and oppress mankind, but for different reasons. Along a similar train of thought,

6 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

While similar, there is one key difference: Archanean dragons would have their minds degenerate until they became basically animals. Elibean dragons just outright died.

While people for years have tried to stablish a connection, ultimately the fact the effects are different clearly show it wasn't the same thing.

Same result (Both world's dragons became Manaketes) had different causes (Degeneration vs Death).

5 hours ago, joevar said:

the item goes unused, but its there, while both cipher and heroes both shows she indeed use it.

so it should be included in the first post i guess? @L3xandr3

On 11/20/2020 at 5:25 AM, L3xandr3 said:

Dragonstones (Indicators of tribes?) in Archenea include: Firestone, Icestone, Earthstone, Flyingstone (Wyvern tribe?), Magestone, and Divinestone. Unused Darkstone (A corrupted Earthstone, mayhap?).

^^^

[Acacia Sgt]

11 minutes ago, L3xandr3 said:

I'd say more 1 than 2 or 3. Grima doesn't quite have the same motivation as Medeus. Medeus hates humans because they discriminate against Manaketes. Meanwhile, I found a quote from Grima that sheds some light on his ideologies:

  Hide contents

You know full well how I detest humans. They have no qualms asking for divine assistance when it meets their fickle needs... But how quick they are to shun their benefactors once they get what they desire. They become arrogant and make the same mistakes repeatedly, incapable of learning the folly of their ways. They claim their actions are for the good of others, but that's merely a show of self-indulgence. Humans are selfish. And the ugliness of mankind has turned me repulsive. It's the world that wants me to be evil.

(to be fair the quote is from Heroes) So Grima hates mankind because of their impiety and arrogance. Same effect can have different causes. Both hate and oppress mankind, but for different reasons. Along a similar train of thought,

It is more 2 since Grima spent a thousand years sealed with the other Earth Dragons, who also had their hatred for humanity. This is where the whole:

"something deriving in appearance, function, or general character from an earlier form.
an adherent who follows closely the teachings, methods, practices, etc.,"

Would apply. Since the hatred of the Earth Dragons is the earlier form of Grima's hatred derived from it.

11 minutes ago, L3xandr3 said:

Same result (Both world's dragons became Manaketes) had different causes (Degeneration vs Death).

I meant in the sense of tying both things together. Since before Awakening, which introduced the multiverse via the Outrealms, people tried to place every FE continent on the same singular planet. So one of the supposed ties was that the Endless Winter is what also caused the Archanean Dragon Degeneration.

11 minutes ago, L3xandr3 said:

^^^

Well, the unused Darkstone from Mystery of the Emblem is different from the Elibian Mage/Demon Stone, also unused. But yeah. It wouldn't be on that list.

Edited November 22, 2020 by Acacia Sgt

[L3xandr3]

3 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

It is more 2 since Grima spent a thousand years sealed with the other Earth Dragons, who also had their hatred for humanity. This is where the whole:

"something deriving in appearance, function, or general character from an earlier form.
an adherent who follows closely the teachings, methods, practices, etc.,"

Would apply. Since the hatred of the Earth Dragons is the earlier form of Grima's hatred derived from it.

2 things:

   First, do we have it confirmed he was sealed with them, or is this an assumption? Just because he returned at the Dragon's Table doesn't necessarily mean he was sealed in it. He may just have been dead, and was revived there...

Spoiler

Just went back and read some script from Awakening, and when Future Grima-Robin is talking to Chrom, Robin, and co., they say this.

Future Robin: I knew if Lucina managed to rewrite history, Grima would never be resurrected.

 

Definition of Resurrection:

1. the act of rising from the dead.
2. (initial capital letter) the rising of Christ after His death and burial.
3. (initial capital letter) the rising of the dead on Judgment Day.
4. the state of those risen from the dead.

Of course, we have the trouble that Naga says neither she nor Grima can kill the other. So this is a bit of a issue... Or is it? The Future-Past DLC have a Naga who was killed by Grima. So I'd guess Grima was dead, but can be revived by anyone with a strong enough Blood-Bond. But at this point we're just grasping at straws. We simply don't know enough to say either way.

 

   Second, other Earth Dragons? If he isn't an Earth Dragon, it wouldn't be with the others as he is not one. This is just me nitpicking your grammar, so just ignore this bit.

[Acacia Sgt]

14 minutes ago, L3xandr3 said:

2 things:

   First, do we have it confirmed he was sealed with them, or is this an assumption? Just because he returned at the Dragon's Table doesn't necessarily mean he was sealed in it. He may just have been dead, and was revived there...

  Hide contents

Just went back and read some script from Awakening, and when Future Grima-Robin is talking to Chrom, Robin, and co., they say this.

Future Robin: I knew if Lucina managed to rewrite history, Grima would never be resurrected.

 

Definition of Resurrection:

1. the act of rising from the dead.
2. (initial capital letter) the rising of Christ after His death and burial.
3. (initial capital letter) the rising of the dead on Judgment Day.
4. the state of those risen from the dead.

Of course, we have the trouble that Naga says neither she nor Grima can kill the other. So this is a bit of a issue... Or is it? The Future-Past DLC have a Naga who was killed by Grima. So I'd guess Grima was dead, but can be revived by anyone with a strong enough Blood-Bond. But at this point we're just grasping at straws. We simply don't know enough to say either way.

 

   Second, other Earth Dragons? If he isn't an Earth Dragon, it wouldn't be with the others as he is not one. This is just me nitpicking your grammar, so just ignore this bit.

Could be. The Table is certainly a place to revive dragons, since we know that at least the second time Medeus was resurrected, it was at the Table. Then again, Naga, when she resurrected as Nagi, wasn't at the Table. Unless she was moved to the Alterspire afterwards.

'Other' in relation to Medeus. Since you brought up Grima's motivation is different from Medeus'. To which I brought up that if Grima had any Earth Dragon influence, it was from the other Earth Dragons, other than Medeus that is.

[L3xandr3]

20 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Then again, Naga, when she resurrected as Nagi, wasn't at the Table. Unless she was moved to the Alterspire afterwards.

We don't know that. Nagi is still a mystery. As far as I am aware, we have no confirmation that Nagi is Naga. She may just as well be an alternant dimension's Naga/Tiki. Or someone else entirely. And yes I know Medeus' quote with her. It could still be an alternant Naga.

13 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

'Other' in relation to Medeus. Since you brought up Grima's motivation is different from Medeus'. To which I brought up that if Grima had any Earth Dragon influence, it was from the other Earth Dragons, other than Medeus that is.

On 11/21/2020 at 9:22 PM, L3xandr3 said:

More like than not, the Creation consumed those sealed dragons when it became Grima.

We're talking about a being that can do all sorts of mystical, magic things. It may be that he absorbed those dragons, with their memories, power, and all.

It would also explain his gargantuan size. Grima started out small. And grew. And grew. Until we find him in SoV, where he's bigger than Duma, but nowhere near as big as when he shows up in Awakening, when he is far larger than the Dragon's Table. The SoV Creation is chronologically roughly (Emphasis on roughly) half way between when Forneus made him, and Awakening. So where did all that mass come from? A fair guess would be because he absorbed the mass from those sealed Earth Dragons.

But this is simply conjecture at this point. Too many unknowns to say for sure.

[Acacia Sgt]

11 minutes ago, L3xandr3 said:

We don't know that. Nagi is still a mystery. As far as I am aware, we have no confirmation that Nagi is Naga. She may just as well be an alternant dimension's Naga/Tiki. Or someone else entirely. And yes I know Medeus' quote with her. It could still be an alternant Naga.

Naga still came back anyway, since she was there to help the First Exalt. And Nagi is Naga reborn. As Medeus, her character ending, and the game's internal data states. And Gotoh knows about her. Unless he knew to start looking into alternate worlds for a second Naga, it's much easier to think it was that same world's Naga who revived, since we know the Table can revive dragons, then moved to the Alterspire. It's too specific of a set-up. Placed in a coffin and guarded by... whoever those people are. That can't just have sprung up on its own. Someone set it up, and Gotoh is the main suspect.

11 minutes ago, L3xandr3 said:

We're talking about a being that can do all sorts of mystical, magic things. It may be that he absorbed those dragons, with their memories, power, and all.

It would also explain his gargantuan size. Grima started out small. And grew. And grew. Until we find him in SoV, where he's bigger than Duma, but nowhere near as big as when he shows up in Awakening, when he is far larger than the Dragon's Table. The SoV Creation is chronologically roughly (Emphasis on roughly) half way between when Forneus made him, and Awakening. So where did all that mass come from? A fair guess would be because he absorbed the mass from those sealed Earth Dragons.

But this is simply conjecture at this point. Too many unknowns to say for sure.

Could be. But yeah, it's conjecture. Grima ain't a normal dragon anyway. So for all we know Grima is like a lobster. Can just keep growing, but without the downside of a lobster who can only grow so much before its own body can't sustain itself and dies.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Acacia Sgt

[L3xandr3]

2 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Naga still came back anyway, since she was there to help the First Exalt. And Nagi is Naga reborn. As Medeus, her character ending, and the game's internal data states. And Gotoh knows about her. Unless he knew to start looking into alternate worlds for a second Naga, it's much easier to think it was that same world's Naga who revived, since we know the Table can revive dragons, then moved to the Alterspire. It's too specific of a set-up. Placed in a coffin and guarded by... whoever those people are. That can't just have sprung up on its own. Someone set it up, and Gotoh is the main suspect.

I'm not arguing that Naga came back. You meet her in Awakening, after all. What I'm saying is that we don't know if Nagi is Naga. It looks that way, but it isn't correct until confirmed. Just because Naga returned doesn't mean she's Nagi. Anyways, I'm off to do a bit of research.

[L3xandr3]

Ok, time for another bit of lore before I go to sleep.

 

2 facts about Dragonstones:

   1   The Wyvernstone exists in Sacred Stones. Cormag’s Wyvern gave one to Cormag, who then gives it to Artur. Whether this is a Dragonstone is doubtful, but it's a nice reference, I guess.

 

   2   Apparently, Awakening’s official site states that you can buy Dragonstones because people use them as jewelry. The question that springs to mind: how many Manaketes have there been, if they’re so common as to be used as jewelry?

And then this: “other gems like ruby and diamond potentially being stones used by other transforming species”. So, Dragonstones are just normal gemstones? That runs contrary to much of the lore of the earlier games. The Dragonstones are special because a dragon stored their power in them. E.g. Gotoh and Xane expended all the power of their stones, thus becoming locked to their Human form.  And yet this says that they are special because a Manakete can use them to transform.

To be fair, this could just be an alternant form of transformation. After all, Tiki’s dragon form in Awakening is vastly different from her appearance in every prior game. But then there is still the problem that the Dragonstone+ and Divinestone look identical, yet the dragon forms yielded by both are different. A coincidence that they look alike?

And then Awakening contradicts it’s own website: Nowi’s A support with Robin is more or less summed up as her freaking out when she loses her stone, saying that ”I can't ever turn into a dragon again”.  IDK what IS is thinking on this one.

[Acacia Sgt]

10 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

I'm not arguing that Naga came back. You meet her in Awakening, after all. What I'm saying is that we don't know if Nagi is Naga. It looks that way, but it isn't correct until confirmed. Just because Naga returned doesn't mean she's Nagi. Anyways, I'm off to do a bit of research.

We do. Medeus recognizes her as Naga. Her character ending titles calls her an avatar of Naga. Both DS games' internal data just outright call her Naga. It's confirmed in all but outright statement that Nagi is the resurrected but amnesiac Naga. Who at some point recovered her memories and resumed her original identity in time to help the First Exalt.

To claim otherwise is to start dismissing what the games are telling us about her.

6 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

  1   The Wyvernstone exists in Sacred Stones. Cormag’s Wyvern gave one to Cormag, who then gives it to Artur. Whether this is a Dragonstone is doubtful, but it's a nice reference, I guess.

They're not the same thing. Archanean Wyvernstones are 飛竜石, of Flying Dragon Stone. Since the Wyvern Clan is the Flying Clan in Japan.

The SS Wyvernstone, however, is 竜曜石. Best I could find, 曜 seems to mean something in the likes of Sunday, Shine, Day of Week. At least, with what other Kanji they're paired up with. So the meaning could be in the likes of Dragon Sun/Shine/Day Stone. Still, they're two completely different things.

6 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

2   Apparently, Awakening’s official site states that you can buy Dragonstones because people use them as jewelry. The question that springs to mind: how many Manaketes have there been, if they’re so common as to be used as jewelry?

There'd have to be plenty, no doubt. Considering Dolhr was basically a Manakete nation, though it also had a sizeable human population.

6 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

And then this: “other gems like ruby and diamond potentially being stones used by other transforming species”. So, Dragonstones are just normal gemstones? That runs contrary to much of the lore of the earlier games. The Dragonstones are special because a dragon stored their power in them. E.g. Gotoh and Xane expended all the power of their stones, thus becoming locked to their Human form.  And yet this says that they are special because a Manakete can use them to transform.

To be fair, this could just be in-universe conjecture. Since Dragonstones do look like they could pass for gemstones, it could make people think other gemstones might also came about the same way.

Also, Gotoh and Xane didn't expended their dragonstone. They discarded them.

6 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

To be fair, this could just be an alternant form of transformation. After all, Tiki’s dragon form in Awakening is vastly different from her appearance in every prior game. But then there is still the problem that the Dragonstone+ and Divinestone look identical, yet the dragon forms yielded by both are different. A coincidence that they look alike?

And then Awakening contradicts it’s own website: Nowi’s A support with Robin is more or less summed up as her freaking out when she loses her stone, saying that ”I can't ever turn into a dragon again”.  IDK what IS is thinking on this one.

At some point, you just have to chalk it up to the art direction. It's not consistent even in the same game:

Left is Mystery's Book 1, right is Mystery's Book 2. They changed the design in the same game! Though it allowed for Warriors to use both designs as Tiki's unpromoted and promoted forms.

That sounds like Gameplay-Story Segregation. In the gameplay a Manakete can use any Dragonstone of their class (except Divines who can use every single Dragonstone type). However, that doesn't mean it has to be that way in the story, does it? Both Awakening and Mystery alude in story that Manaketes can only use their own stone (Xane at some point comments on being unable to change back to dragon form since he threw away his dragonstone and... well, seems he never found it again). So... yeah, it's Gameplay-Story Segregation.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Acacia Sgt