Jump to content

Dragons in the various FE Games


L3xandr3
 Share

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

We do. Medeus recognizes her as Naga. Her character ending titles calls her an avatar of Naga. Both DS games' internal data just outright call her Naga. It's confirmed in all but outright statement that Nagi is the resurrected but amnesiac Naga. Who at some point recovered her memories and resumed her original identity in time to help the First Exalt.

To claim otherwise is to start dismissing what the games are telling us about her.

Does he outright call her Naga? IDK about the Japanese text, seeing you apparently know that, but in English he simply says he wasn't the only revived dragon, and that she had less power than him. None of that implies she is Naga. She could just be a Divine Dragon. Also,

Quote

It's confirmed in all but outright statement

Until we get that statement, she's not confirmed Naga. 

I agree that is most likely who Nagi is, but we can't say for certain. After all, are you - the player - Kris, Robin, or Corrin? No. They are their own characters, yet are described as Avatars. Yes, this is out of context, but still.

3 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

They're not the same thing. Archanean Wyvernstones are 飛竜石, of Flying Dragon Stone. Since the Wyvern Clan is the Flying Clan in Japan.

The SS Wyvernstone, however, is 竜曜石. Best I could find, 曜 seems to mean something in the likes of Sunday, Shine, Day of Week. At least, with what other Kanji they're paired up with. So the meaning could be in the likes of Dragon Sun/Shine/Day Stone. Still, they're two completely different things.

I'll differ to you on this one.

3 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

There'd have to be plenty, no doubt. Considering Dolhr was basically a Manakete nation, though it also had a sizeable human population.

Enough for them to be used as jewelry, some 2,000 years and an near world ending calamity latter?

3 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

To be fair, this could just be in-universe conjecture. Since Dragonstones do look like they could pass for gemstones, it could make people think other gemstones might also came about the same way.

In universe. It's the official website. Of course, IDK what they context for that statement is. Is a chat between in-game characters, or is it the Devs say this? If it is in universe, that's fair enough, I'll not argue that point any longer.

3 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Also, Gotoh and Xane didn't expended their dragonstone. They discarded them.

Effectively the same. Yeah, they could find them latter, but for all intents and purposes it's the same.

3 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

At some point, you just have to chalk it up to the art direction. It's not consistent even in the same game:

Divine Dragons

Left is Mystery's Book 1, right is Mystery's Book 2. They changed the design in the same game! Though it allowed for Warriors to use both designs as Tiki's unpromoted and promoted forms.

That sounds like Gameplay-Story Segregation. In the gameplay a Manakete can use any Dragonstone of their class (except Divines who can use every single Dragonstone type). However, that doesn't mean it has to be that way in the story, does it? Both Awakening and Mystery alude in story that Manaketes can only use their own stone (Xane at some point comments on being unable to change back to dragon form since he threw away his dragonstone and... well, seems he never found it again). So... yeah, it's Gameplay-Story Segregation.

I'd agree with that, yes. Still doesn't help with the contradiction between Awakening and it's Website.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 56
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

3 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

Does he outright call her Naga? IDK about the Japanese text, seeing you apparently know that, but in English he simply says he wasn't the only revived dragon, and that she had less power than him. None of that implies she is Naga. She could just be a Divine Dragon. Also,

Until we get that statement, she's not confirmed Naga. 

I agree that is most likely who Nagi is, but we can't say for certain. After all, are you - the player - Kris, Robin, or Corrin? No. They are their own characters, yet are described as Avatars. Yes, this is out of context, but still.

Not that she had less power overall, only that her power had yet to fully return. There's also the fact that... who else could Medeus be talking about anyway? He has history with Naga.

Nagi also shows awareness that she knows Gotoh's name, even if she doesn't know why.

And, again, the internal data outright calls her Naga.

3 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

Enough for them to be used as jewelry, some 2,000 years and an near world ending calamity latter?

How big you think the dragon populace was? Thousands? Hundred thousands? They had a big civilization whose Golden Age lasted around three thousand years. Even if the number who became Manakete was the minority, even a small % of a population that is borderline millions will still give you thousands of Manaketes. And the Dragons populated the entire continent before Degeneration happened.

3 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

I'd agree with that, yes. Still doesn't help with the contradiction between Awakening and it's Website.

How so? Does the Website says any Manakete can use any stone, or just the one that is theirs?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Not that she had less power overall, only that her power had yet to fully return. There's also the fact that... who else could Medeus be talking about anyway? He has history with Naga.

Nagi also shows awareness that she knows Gotoh's name, even if she doesn't know why.

Medeus has history with the Divine Tribe as well as their king/queen/what-ever-her-title-is. And do you think 2 members of the same tribe might know each other? If Gotoh knows about her, and knows her, then he would have no trouble pointing Marth in her direction. This doesn't prove or disprove that Nagi is Naga. Yes, Naga could b Nagi. Or it could be another Divine Dragon.

The point of the matter is that we have absolutely no hard conformation. As in Gotoh, Medeus, or herself specifically calling her Naga. Yes, it is implied that she is Naga. Implication is not conformation.

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

How big you think the dragon populace was? Thousands? Hundred thousands? They had a big civilization whose Golden Age lasted around three thousand years. Even if the number who became Manakete was the minority, even a small % of a population that is borderline millions will still give you thousands of Manaketes. And the Dragons populated the entire continent before Degeneration happened.

5 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

Enough for them to be used as jewelry, some 2,000 years and an near world ending calamity latter?

^^^ Yes there was a lot of them, I don't argue that. What I argue is this: Are there still enough of them around to be used as jewels?

Here's an example for you: are Roman Denarius coins used in jewelry today? No, because the things are very rare after 2,000-ish years. And that's counting the fact that they where far more common than Dragonstones would be, and without a catastrophe between now and then. Have I made my case yet for this one?

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

How so? Does the Website says any Manakete can use any stone, or just the one that is theirs?

Two ways to interpret what they said:

1) Dragonstones are rocks imbued with Draconic power and are common enough to use as jewels. Clearly this cannot be the case, as far too many would've been destroyed, used up, lost, etc. in the 3,000+ years between Degeneration and Awakening.

2) A rock dug out of the ground has power to make a Manakete transform. They said this “other gems like ruby and diamond potentially being stones used by other transforming species”. Rubies and Diamonds are dug out of the ground. They haven't been infused with Dragonic/Bestial power. So, that makes it sound like the Awakening stones are just normal rocks.

 

The discrepancy is just that. If the Awakening stones are the original stones that had Draconic power stored in them, they would be absurdly rare and hard to find. If they are not those original stones, then that invalidates the whole 'Oh, i lost me stone, i can't become a big, fire breathing lizard again!', because if they lost their stone, they could just go out any buy another one.

Yes, I know gameplay-story segregation, but this still irks me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

Medeus has history with the Divine Tribe as well as their king/queen/what-ever-her-title-is. And do you think 2 members of the same tribe might know each other? If Gotoh knows about her, and knows her, then he would have no trouble pointing Marth in her direction. This doesn't prove or disprove that Nagi is Naga. Yes, Naga could b Nagi. Or it could be another Divine Dragon.

The point of the matter is that we have absolutely no hard conformation. As in Gotoh, Medeus, or herself specifically calling her Naga. Yes, it is implied that she is Naga. Implication is not conformation.

Other than with Naga, who is the ruler of the Divine Dragons, there is no indication Medeus was acquaintance with any other Divines dragon. In fact, his only confirmed interactions are heeding Naga's warning to dragonkind that they must turn to Manakete lest they Degenerate, and accepting her orders to guard the Table and the sealed Earth Dragons. So... all with Naga. Well, depends on their relation and size of the tribe. At the end of the Divine vs Earth war you could say every Divine knew each other... by virtue of there being only four survivors. The point is that Nagi knows of the name of Gotoh. And we know Naga definitely knew Gotoh.

You see, the thing is, not everything will be told us in a straightforward matter. Sometimes the developers instead leave us a trail of clues. This is one such example. We know Naga resurrects. Nagi is a resurrected dragon herself. There's no indication of any Divine Dragon other than Naga that resurrected. Nagi has to be Naga. Sometimes the implication is the confirmation.

3 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

^^^ Yes there was a lot of them, I don't argue that. What I argue is this: Are there still enough of them around to be used as jewels?

Here's an example for you: are Roman Denarius coins used in jewelry today? No, because the things are very rare after 2,000-ish years. And that's counting the fact that they where far more common than Dragonstones would be, and without a catastrophe between now and then. Have I made my case yet for this one?

The thing is, dragonstones are much more durable than denarii. And contrary to what the game mechanics tells us, I doubt they are all that close to being used up. Also, the catastrophe wasn't overarching. In fact, we don't know how much destruction Grima actually caused the first time around. We could chalk down the desertification of southwest Archanea, the drop in sea levels, etc, to Grima... or they could be unrelated. We don't know.

Countless Manaketes who died leaving their dragonstone around. Those that simply discarded their stones. Add some good old scavenging, or just people coming across them. And that the catastrophe that was Grima's first bout of freedom might not be that much of an impact on them. They're a dragon's power in physical form, not glass orbs.

3 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

Two ways to interpret what they said:

1) Dragonstones are rocks imbued with Draconic power and are common enough to use as jewels. Clearly this cannot be the case, as far too many would've been destroyed, used up, lost, etc. in the 3,000+ years between Degeneration and Awakening.

2) A rock dug out of the ground has power to make a Manakete transform. They said this “other gems like ruby and diamond potentially being stones used by other transforming species”. Rubies and Diamonds are dug out of the ground. They haven't been infused with Dragonic/Bestial power. So, that makes it sound like the Awakening stones are just normal rocks.

The discrepancy is just that. If the Awakening stones are the original stones that had Draconic power stored in them, they would be absurdly rare and hard to find. If they are not those original stones, then that invalidates the whole 'Oh, i lost me stone, i can't become a big, fire breathing lizard again!', because if they lost their stone, they could just go out any buy another one.

Yes, I know gameplay-story segregation, but this still irks me.

Or it being interpreted that Dragonstones are thought to be gemstones since it's been so long since dragons were around, their discarded or left behind dragonstones are being dug up or scavenged or procured from practically everywhere, to the point of being confused with regular gemstones, and thus people begin to theorize if other gemstones could have similar properties. By the time of Awakening, not even degenerated dragons seem to be around. And the only Manaketes we know that are still around are Tiki, Nowi, and possibly Bantu. It's understandable if people in general just forgot about how the whole Manakete business works. Sure, the information may still be recorded and known by some, but for most people it's not information they'd need to know anymore, so they might go their whole lives not having need to learn it.

And yes, this ultimately is Gameplay-Story segregation. For gameplay you have Manaketes using practically any stone of their class (with Divines using any type), else you get something like Fae or Myrrh where once their Dragonstones run out, that's it, can't use them for battle again. The story, however, seems to work on the basis that Manaketes can only use their own stone, and that's it.

Edited by Acacia Sgt
Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Other than with Naga, who is the ruler of the Divine Dragons, there is no indication Medeus was acquaintance with any other Divines dragon. In fact, his only confirmed interactions are heeding Naga's warning to dragonkind that they must turn to Manakete lest they Degenerate, and accepting her orders to guard the Table and the sealed Earth Dragons. So... all with Naga. Well, depends on their relation and size of the tribe. At the end of the Divine vs Earth war you could say every Divine knew each other... by virtue of there being only four survivors. The point is that Nagi knows of the name of Gotoh. And we know Naga definitely knew Gotoh.

You see, the thing is, not everything will be told us in a straightforward matter. Sometimes the developers instead leave us a trail of clues. This is one such example. We know Naga resurrects. Nagi is a resurrected dragon herself. There's no indication of any Divine Dragon other than Naga that resurrected. Nagi has to be Naga. Sometimes the implication is the confirmation.

I can tell we aren't going see eye to eye on this one. I still maintain that just because something is implied doesn't mean it's true. If this is your way of viewing it, fine. I'm dropping this one.

36 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

The thing is, dragonstones are much more durable than denarii. [...] They're a dragon's power in physical form, not glass orbs.

Do we know that they are durable? Is it ever stated in lore that a Dragonstone cannot break? You can shatter most gems quite easily. Even Diamond, the hardest substance known to man, breaks if you smack it with a hammer.

They placed their power into the stones. Not 'made the stones with their power, and then stored the rest in it'.

40 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

the catastrophe wasn't overarching. In fact, we don't know how much destruction Grima actually caused the first time around. We could chalk down the desertification of southwest Archanea, the drop in sea levels, etc, to Grima... or they could be unrelated. We don't know.

It was bad enough that they feared the power that stopped it (Falchion and the Fire Emblem). They removed the 5 gemstones from the shield so it's power couldn't be used again. And 2 of said stones where in Chon'sin and Valm (i.e. another continent) for safekeeping with those countries' royalty.

So more like then not, Grima's little rampage affected both Archenea/Ylisse and Valentia/Valm. It must have been quite bad if they were so terrified of Falchion's power.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Time for

Awakening’s World (Archenea, Valentia, and Jugdral) Revised

A bit more research latter and we have this. (?) means I’m uncertain of the dating on the marked event. I’m using the Grann Calendar (G.C.) for this.

 

???: The Alchemist Forneus creates what would eventually become Grima, which he did using Dragon blood, various other materials, and - after 80 days - his own blood.

???: Duma attacked and destroyed the city of Thebes. Maybe this was brought on by word of Forneus’ Creation? Or maybe Thebe’s theft of Dragon Blood?

???: Naga vs Duma & Mila conflict, started over Duma’s destruction of Thebes. Ends with Duma & Mila being banished to Valentia.

001: Beginning of recorded human history when the Grann Calendar was implemented in the eponymous Republic.

???: Degeneration becomes an issue. It is stated Degeneration was a problem 1,000 years before the Kingdom of Archenena was founded. Presumably, this either happened before Galle & Loptous made their pact, or was ongoing at the time. Sometime thereafter, the Divine vs Degenerate Dragon War occurred.

Of course, we don’t know specifically when any of this happened as we don’t have a confirmed date of founding for Archenea. The latest Degeneration could begin is 680 G.C., as we know Archenea existed as a country in 1,680 G.C. when Medeus founded Dohlr and began his warring.

440: Galle forms a blood bond with Loptous.

448: Loptyrian Empire founded.

632: Miracle of Darna. 12 Dragons form blood bonds with those who would become the 12 Crusaders.

648: Death of the last Lotyrian Emperor.

768 (?): Julius becomes Loptous’ Vessel, thus refounding the Loptyrian Empire under the name ‘Empire of Grannvalle’.

777: Gen 2 Genealogy- Forseti assists the rebellion against the reborn Loptyrian Empire.

780 (?): Final holy war ends with Loptous’ defeat and Julius' death.

1,680: Medeus forms the Dohlr Empire. Naga blood bonds Anri, who then uses Falchion to ‘kill’ Medeus.

1,780: Events of Shadow Dragon.

1,781 or 1782: Events of SoV.

1,783: Events of Mystery of the Emblem.

2,783: Rise of Grima and the First Exalt.

3,783: Events of Awakening.

 

Another interesting tidbit is that the GotHW Holy Weapons where either made from Dragonstones or have a Dragonstone within them.

And with this out of the way, we're moving along to another worlds' lore... After I collect the necessary info.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

We do. Medeus recognizes her as Naga. Her character ending titles calls her an avatar of Naga. Both DS games' internal data just outright call her Naga. It's confirmed in all but outright statement that Nagi is the resurrected but amnesiac Naga. Who at some point recovered her memories and resumed her original identity in time to help the First Exalt.

To claim otherwise is to start dismissing what the games are telling us about her.

They're not the same thing. Archanean Wyvernstones are 飛竜石, of Flying Dragon Stone. Since the Wyvern Clan is the Flying Clan in Japan.

The SS Wyvernstone, however, is 竜曜石. Best I could find, 曜 seems to mean something in the likes of Sunday, Shine, Day of Week. At least, with what other Kanji they're paired up with. So the meaning could be in the likes of Dragon Sun/Shine/Day Stone. Still, they're two completely different things.

There'd have to be plenty, no doubt. Considering Dolhr was basically a Manakete nation, though it also had a sizeable human population.

To be fair, this could just be in-universe conjecture. Since Dragonstones do look like they could pass for gemstones, it could make people think other gemstones might also came about the same way.

Also, Gotoh and Xane didn't expended their dragonstone. They discarded them.

At some point, you just have to chalk it up to the art direction. It's not consistent even in the same game:

Divine Dragons

Left is Mystery's Book 1, right is Mystery's Book 2. They changed the design in the same game! Though it allowed for Warriors to use both designs as Tiki's unpromoted and promoted forms.

That sounds like Gameplay-Story Segregation. In the gameplay a Manakete can use any Dragonstone of their class (except Divines who can use every single Dragonstone type). However, that doesn't mean it has to be that way in the story, does it? Both Awakening and Mystery alude in story that Manaketes can only use their own stone (Xane at some point comments on being unable to change back to dragon form since he threw away his dragonstone and... well, seems he never found it again). So... yeah, it's Gameplay-Story Segregation.

Not only does her design change between games, but even her weapon does too! ??? It's a really baffling decision. My only conclusion is that they wanted to suggest Tiki was getting more powerful. Though Mystery of the Emblem never felt the need to use the yellow design, reusing the same battle model as Shadow Dragon. Then again it seems they were super lazy when it came to the animations in DS Fire Emblem.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

Time for

Awakening’s World (Archenea, Valentia, and Jugdral) Revised

A bit more research latter and we have this. (?) means I’m uncertain of the dating on the marked event. I’m using the Grann Calendar (G.C.) for this.

 

???: The Alchemist Forneus creates what would eventually become Grima, which he did using Dragon blood, various other materials, and - after 80 days - his own blood.

???: Duma attacked and destroyed the city of Thebes. Maybe this was brought on by word of Forneus’ Creation? Or maybe Thebe’s theft of Dragon Blood?

???: Naga vs Duma & Mila conflict, started over Duma’s destruction of Thebes. Ends with Duma & Mila being banished to Valentia.

001: Beginning of recorded human history when the Grann Calendar was implemented in the eponymous Republic.

???: Degeneration becomes an issue. It is stated Degeneration was a problem 1,000 years before the Kingdom of Archenena was founded. Presumably, this either happened before Galle & Loptous made their pact, or was ongoing at the time. Sometime thereafter, the Divine vs Degenerate Dragon War occurred.

Of course, we don’t know specifically when any of this happened as we don’t have a confirmed date of founding for Archenea. The latest Degeneration could begin is 680 G.C., as we know Archenea existed as a country in 1,680 G.C. when Medeus founded Dohlr and began his warring.

440: Galle forms a blood bond with Loptous.

448: Loptyrian Empire founded.

632: Miracle of Darna. 12 Dragons form blood bonds with those who would become the 12 Crusaders.

648: Death of the last Lotyrian Emperor.

768 (?): Julius becomes Loptous’ Vessel, thus refounding the Loptyrian Empire under the name ‘Empire of Grannvalle’.

777: Gen 2 Genealogy- Forseti assists the rebellion against the reborn Loptyrian Empire.

780 (?): Final holy war ends with Loptous’ defeat and Julius' death.

1,680: Medeus forms the Dohlr Empire. Naga blood bonds Anri, who then uses Falchion to ‘kill’ Medeus.

1,780: Events of Shadow Dragon.

1,781 or 1782: Events of SoV.

1,783: Events of Mystery of the Emblem.

2,783: Rise of Grima and the First Exalt.

3,783: Events of Awakening.

 

Another interesting tidbit is that the GotHW Holy Weapons where either made from Dragonstones or have a Dragonstone within them.

And with this out of the way, we're moving along to another worlds' lore... After I collect the necessary info.

You're aware we have an official timeline, right?

https://serenesforest.net/fire-emblem-echoes-shadows-valentia/articles/official-timeline/

Naga and Duma came to Valentia three thousand years before the S/NES games and the Divine Dragon and Earth Dragon war happened between 400 to 700 years ago (which I personally take to mean it took 300 years to complete).

Official timeline lacks the Jugdral stuff because it was a Shadows of Valentia tie in, but fortunately Jugdral already has pretty  precise timelines and it's not hard to line them up.

https://fireemblemwiki.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Archanea,_Valentia_and_Jugdral

 

Double posting because Serenes won't let me edit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Jotari said:

You're aware we have an official timeline, right?

https://serenesforest.net/fire-emblem-echoes-shadows-valentia/articles/official-timeline/

Naga and Duma came to Valentia three thousand years before the S/NES games and the Divine Dragon and Earth Dragon war happened between 400 to 700 years ago (which I personally take to mean it took 300 years to complete).

Official timeline lacks the Jugdral stuff because it was a Shadows of Valentia tie in, but fortunately Jugdral already has pretty  precise timelines and it's not hard to line them up.

https://fireemblemwiki.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Archanea,_Valentia_and_Jugdral

 

Double posting because Serenes won't let me edit.

Uh... Oops. I did not know these where a thing, actually.

Anyways, that's one world's dragons. I'm off to another. Be back in a bit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

World of Elibe

We more or less know how the Elibian history of the Manaketes went down. So, I'm not going to summarize the backstory of the Dragons. Gonna drop some facts, then some theories.

 

Of note is that the Fire Dragons of Elibe seem to be emotionless. The War Dragons (who are basically clones of Fire Dragons) are not only lacking in emotion, they also appear to be mentally deficient, only capable of simple tactics and fighting. The only remaining true Fire Dragon, Jahn, appears to be emotionless, but is intelligent.

 

Also of note is that War Dragons are very similar to Morphs. Both have bizarre coloration and lack emotions. Both are artificial beings, but are made though different means: War Dragons are produced by Demon Dragons through unknown methods while Morphs are created by using Quintessence.

Aside from the obvious Dragon-Human difference, the main differences are that the Morphs are capable of more than just combat and can be very intelligent. Meanwhile the War Dragons appear to be made without noticeable cost, as (in FE6’s final chapter) they appear without end until Idunn is defeated.

 

And, theory time.

 

This is an anti-theory. Some people claim the similarity between War Dragons and Morphs is because Nergal discovered how to make Morphs while he was in Arcadia (i.e. learned from Dragons). This can't be the case. He learned of Quintessence in Arcadia, yes, but he was at the very least was incapable of Morph-making at the time. He may have found hints that led him to the Morphs, but he didn’t find the knowledge there.

Nergal had to experiment for a great deal of time to make his Morphs. We know he got booted out of Arcadia ~500 years before Blazing Blade, as both he and Athos state. The reason was because he had learned how to rip Quintessence from living beings. There is no reference to Morphs in Athos’ story about why Nergal got kicked out.

Renault’s backstory sheds a bit of light on this. Renault was a mercenary, and one day lost his best friend in a battle. This drove him mad, and he became a heartless killer. Of particular note is that he killed Lucius’ father during this period of his life. Nergal then offered to bring his friend back to life, and thus did Renault stop his slaughter-spree and help him in his experimentations. So Nergal’s Morph-making is a recent event in Elibe’s history, not some ancient occurrence.

 

Jahn states that Dragons experience emotions differently than Humans. Whether this extends to the Divine and Ice Tribes of Elibe is dubious at best, as Fa, Sophia, Ninian, and Nils are all shown to have human emotions. However, Sophia, Ninian, and Nils are half-human hybrids, and thus may behave differently than a full-blooded Dragon.

 

And then we have that whole ‘Bad air in Elibe’ thing. If Ninian marries Eliwood, it is stated she will not live for long, because the atmosphere is toxic to dragons. What of the Divine Dragons of Arcadia, Idunn, Jahn, and the all the War Dragons? They seem fine. Is it maybe because Ninian is an Ice Manakete?

For that matter, what of Roy? If Ninian is his mother, then he’s a quarter Ice Dragon. Why is he fine, then? Because Ninian lost a great deal of power coming through the Dragon’s Gate? Or because Roy's Ice Dragon blood is to diluted?

This is just a big… well not plot hole, because that would mean it’s relevant to the story. Lore hole? IDK. It is a curious bit of info, I’ll give it that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pft, I linked that timeline already, how did you not catch it...

Well anyway...

3 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

The only remaining true Fire Dragon, Jahn, appears to be emotionless, but is intelligent.

Jahn seems more like he doesn't express emotions as passionate. Or he's just more subdued. He certainly expresses emotion, considering he's emotionally driven in the eridation of humanity.

3 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

Of note is that the Fire Dragons of Elibe seem to be emotionless. The War Dragons (who are basically clones of Fire Dragons) are not only lacking in emotion, they also appear to be mentally deficient, only capable of simple tactics and fighting. 

Also of note is that War Dragons are very similar to Morphs. Both have bizarre coloration and lack emotions. Both are artificial beings, but are made though different means: War Dragons are produced by Demon Dragons through unknown methods while Morphs are created by using Quintessence.

Aside from the obvious Dragon-Human difference, the main differences are that the Morphs are capable of more than just combat and can be very intelligent. Meanwhile the War Dragons appear to be made without noticeable cost, as (in FE6’s final chapter) they appear without end until Idunn is defeated.

I'd like to point out that the War Dragons could be coming off as they are because of the state Idunn is in when making them. After being forced to become a Mage/Demon Dragon, she still refused to cooperate, so then she got turned into an emotionless husk. So it's possible. Though either way the War Dragon sound like they would not be true dragons anyway.

3 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

And then we have that whole ‘Bad air in Elibe’ thing. If Ninian marries Eliwood, it is stated she will not live for long, because the atmosphere is toxic to dragons. What of the Divine Dragons of Arcadia, Idunn, Jahn, and the all the War Dragons? They seem fine. Is it maybe because Ninian is an Ice Manakete?

For that matter, what of Roy? If Ninian is his mother, then he’s a quarter Ice Dragon. Why is he fine, then? Because Ninian lost a great deal of power coming through the Dragon’s Gate? Or because Roy's Ice Dragon blood is to diluted?

This is just a big… well not plot hole, because that would mean it’s relevant to the story. Lore hole? IDK. It is a curious bit of info, I’ll give it that.

To start with, Divine Dragons mostly always seem to play by their own rules, so hard to say on them. Jahn was stated to spend most of his time in the Dragon Temple, which neutralized the effects of the Endless Winter, even to the day. So that explains him. For those like Sophia, Fae, and the War Dragons, it's likely it's because they were born/created after the Endless Winter, so the likely simply are acclimatized. As for why Ninian and Nils were still in peril of dying... well, they crossed the Gate before the Endless Winter. They simply didn't acclimatized.

Could be. Sadly the series barely tackles anything beyond half-hybridizations, so this is up in the air.

 

Edited by Acacia Sgt
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Jahn seems more like he doesn't express emotions as passionate. Or he's just more subdued. He certainly expresses emotion, considering he's emotionally driven in the eridation of humanity.

From what I've seen in English, he seems to be overly chill, even when he's talking about the eradication of Humans or Dragons. Of course, IDK about the Japanese version, especially seeing as the English translations are not official. If what you say is sourced on the JP version, then I'll not argue it further.

8 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I'd like to point out that the War Dragons could be coming off as they are because of the state Idunn is in when making them. After being forced to become a Mage/Demon Dragon, she still refused to cooperate, so then she got turned into an emotionless husk. So it's possible. Though either way the War Dragon sound like they would not be true dragons anyway.

Fair enough. We don't know all that much about War Dragons, so we can't say for certain.

8 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Could be. Sadly the series barely tackles anything beyond half-hybridizations, so this is up in the air.

Awakening touches lightly upon it. Tiki and Nah's supports are pretty much it.

I'd say Fates, but Corrin and co. learn next to nothing of the truth of that world's Dragons, save that the Rainbow Sage is a Manakete and that Anankos is mad because he's a Dragon. And the word 'Manakete' is only brought up once in the entirety of Fates. But that's an entirely different topic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the part that i've been waiting for since its not one week after i finished BB again.

14 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

And then we have that whole ‘Bad air in Elibe’ thing. If Ninian marries Eliwood, it is stated she will not live for long, because the atmosphere is toxic to dragons. What of the Divine Dragons of Arcadia, Idunn, Jahn, and the all the War Dragons? They seem fine. Is it maybe because Ninian is an Ice Manakete?

For that matter, what of Roy? If Ninian is his mother, then he’s a quarter Ice Dragon. Why is he fine, then? Because Ninian lost a great deal of power coming through the Dragon’s Gate? Or because Roy's Ice Dragon blood is to diluted?

This is just a big… well not plot hole, because that would mean it’s relevant to the story. Lore hole? IDK. It is a curious bit of info, I’ll give it that.

Lore hole. big one

its a weird situation where FE7 and Hasha no tsurugi manga introduce more lore that at odds with FE6. either they didnt think the lore very thorough when rushing to make FE6, or just they want to retcon some smaller detail but forgot to say "this is the correct one"

-----

i support the idea that maybe only ice dragon/manakete that suffers the most to "dirty" air. (they have not even undergone industrial revolution yet, but already have bad air, bruh)

Fa had emotion, have lived at least longer than sophia, so it makes some lore point in about not having emotions moot already. maybe we can take Fa away completely? since i dislike her. The elder of the Nabata express emotion too, in the sense they "fear" to try to rescue Idunn because it will endanger the other Divine Dragon. So the elder will try to restore Idunn emotion. There, "restore", not introduce, add, insert, or something similar. So Idunn already had emotion before Ending Winter

i would like to compare War dragon more to android, which is artificial and not through breeding. hence lacking the intelligence because they havent learned many things but already "matured". Also Idunn lost emotion when her soul destroyed, maybe they lack the true soul/core that comprises true dragon. so they lack emotion.

10 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Jahn seems more like he doesn't express emotions as passionate. Or he's just more subdued. He certainly expresses emotion, considering he's emotionally driven in the eridation of humanity.

nope. its clear in last conversation that he has no qualms if Roy actually defeat him in the dragon temple, because its just survival of the fittest to him nothing more nothing less. im basing this from old (sword of seals) and new translation (binding blade)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, joevar said:

nope. its clear in last conversation that he has no qualms if Roy actually defeat him in the dragon temple, because its just survival of the fittest to him nothing more nothing less. im basing this from old (sword of seals) and new translation (binding blade)

That's what he says, but how much true is it?

As shown, Fae and Idunn have/had-but-can-recover emotions. So again, either Divine Dragons follow their own rules, or Jahn is just making himself to be above emotions.

3 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

Awakening touches lightly upon it. Tiki and Nah's supports are pretty much it.

I'd say Fates, but Corrin and co. learn next to nothing of the truth of that world's Dragons, save that the Rainbow Sage is a Manakete and that Anankos is mad because he's a Dragon. And the word 'Manakete' is only brought up once in the entirety of Fates. But that's an entirely different topic.

I meant beyond half-dragons.

The only thing Fates shows us on that front is that their dragons can still transform even if they're only quarter-blooded (though I think Awakening already showed that with Nah!Morgan, but then it's only shown in the gameplay). But that's only for Fates dragons, and nothing else is really shown or told about it.

23 minutes ago, joevar said:

i support the idea that maybe only ice dragon/manakete that suffers the most to "dirty" air. (they have not even undergone industrial revolution yet, but already have bad air, bruh)

It's not really described as dirty, just different, if I recall. The Endless Winter effectively threw the rules of nature out of whack. Some recovered (like watching stars even during daytime), but others seemed to not have done so (dragons finding themselves in peril of dying if they kept their power within themselves). Even Jahn has to remain most of his time at the Temple else he'd die. Though part of it is due to healing his wounds from the Scouring.

As it is, Ninian and Nils' case is special. In that they fled across the gate before the Endless Winter happened. So of course they wouldn't have the chance to get used to it, and as it was, might be too late for them to try to acclimatize now. And other Manaketes and half-Manaketes like Sophia and Fae were born after the fact. The only issue is explaining the dragons that stayed in what would become Arcadia, how are they still fine. On the other hand, the Arcadia Elder talks about how Fae is the only true dragon around, so... maybe something did happened to them after all. Not fatal, but still something.

3 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

From what I've seen in English, he seems to be overly chill, even when he's talking about the eradication of Humans or Dragons. Of course, IDK about the Japanese version, especially seeing as the English translations are not official. If what you say is sourced on the JP version, then I'll not argue it further.

I'd say it can be a problem of translation, as not all the nuances of the Japanese script can transfer well to English. Either way, Jahn still comes off as not quite meaning what he is saying, specially on the subject of his feelings, or lack thereof. At least, that's how I see it.

Edited by Acacia Sgt
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

That's what he says, but how much true is it?

As shown, Fae and Idunn have/had-but-can-recover emotions. So again, either Divine Dragons follow their own rules, or Jahn is just making himself to be above emotions

that kind of logic should not be included in this topic i believe. why? because then there would be no end to it. everything he says will be not true, and everything he didnt say might be true which can be anything. it becomes unnecessary convoluted. if he says cant be taken at face value, then nothing can be discussed , or at least so little can be. since no other trusted source exist other than nabata elder who speak so little

funny thing is, i use that logic on Yoder while playing the game again. Since Yoder so adamant about finding out about dragon on behalf of the church. if any faction have info about dragon that would be Bern royalty followed by Elimine church since Elimine herself became the leading figure, even as much told them to never let dragon return, and Aureola location seems to be in places where everyone could know (so they can use it when needed). So church (and yoder) is fishy, not just wanting to avoid further bloodshed from the war.... (human supremacy much?)


that aside, at least i can give you reason why it should be true: He is pure blooded dragon who also prideful. he's no Nergal, or Zephiel. He's no schemer. He's not even care what version of history the human write. just answering Roy question, thats all.

rather than devoid of emotion, he's not sentimental about it. which human character can become one too.

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

It's not really described as dirty, just different, if I recall.

i know, they didnt use word "dirty" in the game.  just a little joke from me to compare it to modern polluted air.

 

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I'd say it can be a problem of translation, as not all the nuances of the Japanese script can transfer well to English. Either way, Jahn still comes off as not quite meaning what he is saying, specially on the subject of his feelings, or lack thereof. At least, that's how I see it.

FE6 is not translated by treehouse or other localization company. no one feel the need to change the content of the conversation. and now theres two translation available. just compare it

if you're not convinced, there are plenty people here that can translate Japanese, or more recently ask Gringe since he must have the original script while working on newer translation

Edited by joevar
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

As it is, Ninian and Nils' case is special. In that they fled across the gate before the Endless Winter happened. So of course they wouldn't have the chance to get used to it, and as it was, might be too late for them to try to acclimatize now. And other Manaketes and half-Manaketes like Sophia and Fae were born after the fact. The only issue is explaining the dragons that stayed in what would become Arcadia, how are they still fine. On the other hand, the Arcadia Elder talks about how Fae is the only true dragon around, so... maybe something did happened to them after all. Not fatal, but still something.

Do we know they left before the Ending Winter? Is it stated one way or the other that they were of weren't there during that event? I'd need to go back over FE7's script to say for sure...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, L3xandr3 said:

Do we know they left before the Ending Winter? Is it stated one way or the other that they were of weren't there during that event? I'd need to go back over FE7's script to say for sure...

also unless im wrong, there's no mention about them having/lost their dragonstone at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, joevar said:

also unless im wrong, there's no mention about them having/lost their dragonstone at all.

Dragonsto- What? I didn't mention a Dragonstone. What I said is, we don't know whether Ninian and Nils had gone through the Dragon's Gate before the Ending Winter occurred.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, L3xandr3 said:

Dragonsto- What? I didn't mention a Dragonstone. What I said is, we don't know whether Ninian and Nils had gone through the Dragon's Gate before the Ending Winter occurred.

hmm????
oh sorry, wrong quote. lol. i actually want to post it in previous post. about lore inconsistencies

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ninian and Nils do have a dragonstone, by the way. Curiously, just one. It seems to house both their energies, as it were. Unless one got lost, which isn't fully implausible. As it is, since they can share and even transfer their energy with each other, perhaps they thought redundant to have two stones.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Ninian and Nils do have a dragonstone, by the way. Curiously, just one. It seems to house both their energies, as it were. Unless one got lost, which isn't fully implausible. As it is, since they can share and even transfer their energy with each other, perhaps they thought redundant to have two stones.

really? in game, or stated in story?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, joevar said:

really? in game, or stated in story?

At one point Limstella calls it "The children’s dragon stone", as in, belonging to both. Either way, only one is ever mentioned or shows up at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
On 11/21/2020 at 11:22 PM, L3xandr3 said:

Awakening’s World (Archenea, Valentia, and Jugdral)

M’k, so the Awakening World has the most developed Dragon lore. The timeline concerning Dragons (as far as I can tell) is as follows. I may as well use the established Jugdral Calendar.

 

Before recorded history, Degeneration becomes a problem. We can infer this happened before the destruction of Thebes, because Duma & Mila appear in human form during Valentia, after they were Banished, and Mila appears to be holding a dragonstone in the cutscene where Rudolf invades her temple.

The Alchemist Forneus creates what would eventually become Grima, which (according to the lore tablets in Thebes in SoV) he did using Earth Dragon blood, various other materials, and after 40 days- his own blood.

Duma attacked and destroyed the city of Thebes. Maybe this was brought on by word of Forneus’ Creation?

2 different Dragon Wars: Divine vs Degenerate so Naga could protect mankind, and Naga vs Duma & Mila, started over Duma’s destruction of Thebes. We don’t know which came first. Ends with Duma & Mila being banished to Valentia and the Degenerate Dragons being (mostly) sealed in what would become the Dragon’s Table.

001: Beginning of recorded human history.

440: Galle forms a blood bond with Loptous.

448: Loptrian Empire founded.

632: Miracle of Darna. 12 Dragons form blood bonds with those who would become the 12 Crusaders.

648: Death of the last Lotyrian Emperor.

761 (?): Birth of Julius.

768 (?): Julius becomes Loptous’ vessel, which attracts Forseti’s attention(?) It’s a bit vague. Forseti was definitely involved in Lewyn’s revival, but we don’t know if it was immediately after the Battle of Belhalla, so I’d guess he took note when Loptous was reborn.

777: Gen 2 Genealogy- Forseti interferes in the rebellion against the reborn Loptous Empire.

780 (?): Final holy war ends with Loptous’ defeat.

1,680: Medeus forms the Dohlr Empire. Naga blood bonds (?) Anri, who then uses Falchion to ‘kill’ Medeus.

1,780: Events of Shadow Dragon.

1,781 or 1782: Events of Gaiden/SoV.

1,783: Events of Mystery of the Emblem.

2,783 (?): Rise of Grima and the First Exalt. I think it was said somewhere that Grima rose up about 1,000 years after Marth killed Medeus, but I’m not certain.

3,783 (?): Events of Awakening.

That’s a lot of lore. I could get into the minor details, but I will not. I do have a couple of theories, though, and would like to see what you guys think.

 

(Theory) Grima is the sum of Forneus’ Creation and the Degenerate Dragons sealed in the Dragon’s Table. More like than not, the Creation consumed those sealed dragons when it became Grima. This would explain Grima’s sudden appearance in history 1,000 years before Awakening, as no one had noticed such a terrifyingly powerful creature before.

(Theory) The Grimleal are the descendants of some remaining Loptous worshipers. It would explain the Deadlords serving the Grimleal, and (to an extent) how they have some of the 12 Holy Weapons. Mayhap Grima is influenced by Loptous’ hatred for mankind.

 

This is awesome. Where would you put Tellius in the timeline, since Taguel are said to be related to laguz, so probably Tellius is a distant continent in the same world.

Also I know its a reach since other games aren't  confirmed to be in the same universe/timeline but where would Sacred Stones, Elibe and Three Houses match in the timeline?

I suppose that Fates happened centuries or even a millenia before Jugdral to the point that it's a fairytale in Ylisse's time period, so this could explain astral dragons and Naga not being alive, for example, since probably she wasn't born or was a kid. 

Edited by Mylady
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Mylady said:

 

This is awesome. Where would you put Tellius in the timeline, since Taguel are said to be related to laguz, so probably Tellius is a distant continent in the same world.

Also I know its a reach since other games aren't  confirmed to be in the same universe/timeline but where would Sacred Stones, Elibe and Three Houses match in the timeline?

I suppose that Fates happened centuries or even a millenia before Jugdral to the point that it's a fairytale in Ylisse's time period, so this could explain astral dragons and Naga not being alive, for example, since probably she wasn't born or was a kid. 

Been a while since there was movement in this thread.

We do know there a several different worlds. Most of them are in the same universe... Except for Tellius. It's so very different, in many ways I'll not expand upon here. And it's more or less confirmed that Tellius isn't in the same reality as the others. We know Archenea, Valentia, and Jugdral are on the same planet. It's unknown if any of the other continents are on the same planets with the aforementioned 3, or even each other.

For that last bit, we know there are Time-Space portals between the various game's worlds (Dragon's Gate in Elibe and (Unrelated?) Fates, Outrealm Gate in Awakening, etc.), so the other continents aren't necessarily a part of the Archenean world. Of course, we don't know if they are, either. So if I said anything either confirming or denying it, it's just speculation. We just don't know enough.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...