Jump to content
OutcastsofRelix

Book V Speculation and Discussion Thread

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, Mercakete said:

 

On the topic of Coyote's men, the reason I bring this up is because, until now, it has always been explainable. In book 1, Veronica was forcing heroes into contracts to serve her. In book 2, Surtr made a deal with Veronica, so she was using this same power to get heroes to serve him. In book 3, these were heroes found in the land of the dead, and so Hel had power over them (not to mention that they must have been summoned to Lif and Thrasir's Askr/Embla before their lands were swallowed up into Hel (location) and the summoner of that world was killed.) In book 4, they were nightmares. And in book 5, until now, it's not too hard to assume that these guys were conscripted using Nidavellir tech, especially since they were serving Otr and Fafnir in the Nidavellir army. This is why I puzzled out Eitri's involvement once Otr and Fafnir stopped being a controlling factor for these heroes, but was initially wondering why they didn't gain their freedom to act as they please since the guys they were bound to were either dead or monster-minded.

On some level that's true. Heroes indeeds grants some reasons as to why you're fighting different Heroes. Be it Veronica, Lif or gimmicks regarding the books specific realms. 

But its often clumsy and not very satisfactory. I mean what sort of monster would consider Annette someone to have nightmares about? Probably the same wimp who has his sleep haunted by figures such as Nils and Bernadetta. And despite being the realm of the dead there's a distinct lack of Ishtars, Eldigan's or Ninian's in Hell's army. The Gerik mercenaries don't say anything to indicate that they're zombiefied versions of themselves that died during the Sacred Stones story, nor does Lugh express much fear about being forcefully conscripted into the army of the dead.

Then you have miss midget summoning Heroes in a way that's stressed will break them, but the Heroes don't seem any worse for wear, and who knows how Dagr and Nott even got their own Heroes. 

I think the only book that really did this right is book 1 where Heroes occasionally stressed that they really weren't attacking you of their own free will. After that they more or less gave up the pretense that the Fire Emblem characters were actually a part of the story. I kinda suspect that their presence is mostly gameplay and story segregation and that we're not supposed to think any of the summonable Heroes are even around in the story. 

And this could all be really easily fixed by the most minor tweaks. Just have Gerik say ''Once I was a famous mercenary, but then I took an arrow in the knee and now I'm in the underworld'', or Lugh going ''Commander Lif is rough around the edges but I can tell he's a good person''. With Lysithea they could even have a little fun and indicate she's part of the Death Knight's nightmare.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

On some level that's true. Heroes indeeds grants some reasons as to why you're fighting different Heroes. Be it Veronica, Lif or gimmicks regarding the books specific realms. 

But its often clumsy and not very satisfactory. I mean what sort of monster would consider Annette someone to have nightmares about? Probably the same wimp who has his sleep haunted by figures such as Nils and Bernadetta. And despite being the realm of the dead there's a distinct lack of Ishtars, Eldigan's or Ninian's in Hell's army. The Gerik mercenaries don't say anything to indicate that they're zombiefied versions of themselves that died during the Sacred Stones story, nor does Lugh express much fear about being forcefully conscripted into the army of the dead.

Then you have miss midget summoning Heroes in a way that's stressed will break them, but the Heroes don't seem any worse for wear, and who knows how Dagr and Nott even got their own Heroes. 

I think the only book that really did this right is book 1 where Heroes occasionally stressed that they really weren't attacking you of their own free will. After that they more or less gave up the pretense that the Fire Emblem characters were actually a part of the story. I kinda suspect that their presence is mostly gameplay and story segregation and that we're not supposed to think any of the summonable Heroes are even around in the story. 

And this could all be really easily fixed by the most minor tweaks. Just have Gerik say ''Once I was a famous mercenary, but then I took an arrow in the knee and now I'm in the underworld'', or Lugh going ''Commander Lif is rough around the edges but I can tell he's a good person''. With Lysithea they could even have a little fun and indicate she's part of the Death Knight's nightmare.

First off, as I said, I think the heroes were summoned normally by Lif's Kiran or conscripted by Thrasir before everything went to Hel. And since they still had their contracts to Lif and Thrasir, they kept fighting for the two after they became undead. There's no reason why they had to die in their home world to be in Hel.

As for the nightmares, the very fact that these people are coming to kill you makes it nightmarish. These heroes also don't have to act in character since they're not really there -- they're just nightmares.

As for Eitri's summoning breaking the heroes, I know that was true up until the last book or two when she got something from the summoner that improved her own summoning, but I can't remember if that totally fixed it or not. Indeed, this is the book with the weakest canon reasons for why heroes are working for the enemy, especially since Nidvallir is actually opposed to both Askr and Embla and doesn't control some aspect of reality (like death)/fantasy (like dreams.)

Also, directly responding to "the pretense that the Fire Emblem characters were actually a part of the story" I'd like to point out that the heroes whose home game is Heroes are still just as much Fire Emblem characters as any with other Fire Emblem home games.

Other than all that, I pretty much agree with you. IS stopped trying to explain it and let it just be gameplay vs story segregation (barring general things like "Eitri can summon but not really.") And IS could just change what the characters say to match the situation, like "The Order of Heroes? This can't be real. We were a part of that, long ago..." for characters in Hel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, since the topic of book 4 being different/not that different from the other books was brought up I have to throw my hat into the ring.

Book 4 is VERY different from the other books. Undeniably so. And it's not even necessarly a good thing. You want to know a major way in which book 4 is different from the other books?

Book 4 can be skipped. Even if you are someone that cares about the story of the game, nothing that happens in the book is important. There are only two things that happen that may be relevant in the future: 

- Freiyja namedrops Alfador on us, which is the first time the Askr trio gets to know about the guy.

- Triandra and Plumeria now work for Lif, and this technically happened after the book was finished.

Everything else is pure filler and "character development" for Sharena.

Another major difference from other books. In all the other books we meet the main villain at the beginning. In book 4 we meet Freyja only in the second half of the story. And that observation about book 4 not starting with an invasion like the others rings very true. I'm sorry @Mercakete, I love you but it's a real stretch to call a weird sleeping curse that in the end didn't kill anyone the same as an outright invasion. 

Speaking of "not killing anyone", it just occured to me that Freyja is the only main villain (other than Veronica. And i consider Fafnir a main villain) in all of FEH that didn't kill a named character to show how dangerous she was. Scratch that, she didn't kill anyone at all. Even Veronica killed some askrans with her invasion, I think. The only people whose deaths were kinda her fault are Freyr, Triandra and Plumeria, and they were killed by us, and also were the only three people she didn't want to die lmao! What a dunce. What a loser. 

I don't think Freyja can be compared to other main villains by virtue of how actually pathetic and ineffectual she is. The others all had some dignity, even if they were monsters, while Freyja is more like a spoiled princess who acts high and mighty, but in reality is only capable of throwing a tantrum when things don't go her way. She is also the only villain who made empty threats and bluffed to try and stop us. When the other villains threaten the good guys they keep their word and actually kill them, or come very close (remember when Veronica almost smoked us in Book I?). Freyja told us Alfonse was dead and it was a lie to get under our skin and make us lose our cool.

I think some villains from the main series that were designed to be pathetic morons, like Narcian, are actually smarter and more dangerous than she is. The smartest decision she ever made was killing herself to ressurect two actually intelligent people who could actually accomplish something in their lives.

I'm surprised people don't realize how incompetent she was. Maybe because her design makes her look competent and threatening.

Anyway book 4 is arguably the worst written of all the books, other than maybe the pathetic book I, but you gotta admit, if nothing else it was different and unique.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, GrandeRampel said:

Okay, since the topic of book 4 being different/not that different from the other books was brought up I have to throw my hat into the ring.

Book 4 is VERY different from the other books. Undeniably so. And it's not even necessarly a good thing. You want to know a major way in which book 4 is different from the other books?

Book 4 can be skipped. Even if you are someone that cares about the story of the game, nothing that happens in the book is important. There are only two things that happen that may be relevant in the future: 

- Freiyja namedrops Alfador on us, which is the first time the Askr trio gets to know about the guy.

- Triandra and Plumeria now work for Lif, and this technically happened after the book was finished.

Everything else is pure filler and "character development" for Sharena.

Another major difference from other books. In all the other books we meet the main villain at the beginning. In book 4 we meet Freyja only in the second half of the story. And that observation about book 4 not starting with an invasion like the others rings very true. I'm sorry @Mercakete, I love you but it's a real stretch to call a weird sleeping curse that in the end didn't kill anyone the same as an outright invasion. 

Speaking of "not killing anyone", it just occured to me that Freyja is the only main villain (other than Veronica. And i consider Fafnir a main villain) in all of FEH that didn't kill a named character to show how dangerous she was. Scratch that, she didn't kill anyone at all. Even Veronica killed some askrans with her invasion, I think. The only people whose deaths were kinda her fault are Freyr, Triandra and Plumeria, and they were killed by us, and also were the only three people she didn't want to die lmao! What a dunce. What a loser. 

I don't think Freyja can be compared to other main villains by virtue of how actually pathetic and ineffectual she is. The others all had some dignity, even if they were monsters, while Freyja is more like a spoiled princess who acts high and mighty, but in reality is only capable of throwing a tantrum when things don't go her way. She is also the only villain who made empty threats and bluffed to try and stop us. When the other villains threaten the good guys they keep their word and actually kill them, or come very close (remember when Veronica almost smoked us in Book I?). Freyja told us Alfonse was dead and it was a lie to get under our skin and make us lose our cool.

I think some villains from the main series that were designed to be pathetic morons, like Narcian, are actually smarter and more dangerous than she is. The smartest decision she ever made was killing herself to ressurect two actually intelligent people who could actually accomplish something in their lives.

I'm surprised people don't realize how incompetent she was. Maybe because her design makes her look competent and threatening.

Anyway book 4 is arguably the worst written of all the books, other than maybe the pathetic book I, but you gotta admit, if nothing else it was different and unique.

 

Another thing that happens in book 4 is that Peony is introduced, who is the first character not from book 1 to appear outside of her home book in said book's main story (as opposed to popping up at the end in a cutscene) and who isn't another recurring character (such as Loki or Thorr.) (She shows up to deliver a message in book 5. Small role, but if you don't know who she is, you're going to be confused.)

Also, we don't meet the villain in book 5 (Eitri) until well into it (though she was on the book art.) Likewise, as I recall, we don't meet Hel right away either. I could be wrong about that, though, or just thinking about that one paralogue where we see her speak, but don't actually see her.

As for my calling the sleeping thing an invasion, it certainly was. Freyja was forcing people into a slumber, bringing them into the nightmare realm. How else do you expect the queen of nightmares to conquer a place? It was an atypical invasion because Freyja exists on a connected plane rather than being one on the same plane. It's a different method to the same end: subjugating everyone.

As for Fafnir, I thought it was fairly clear that he's a victim, not a villain. He was being controlled the whole time. The real book villain is Eitri.

As for book 4 being different, I actually think all of the books are unique to each other. I was only debunking the claim (which was general anyway) when I pointed that conquest thing out. Also, I'd like to point out that Freyja was never trying to do bodily harm. Her goal was to bring people into endless nightmares (so, more of a mental attack than a physical one) and she really did nearly succeed there. Someone's competency should be measured by the person's ability to achieve one's goals, not what one is not trying to achieve.

Anyway, those are just things I didn't think were quite accurate about your assessment, but am open to further discussion. And thanks; I appreciate your company as well. 🙂

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

Another thing that happens in book 4 is that Peony is introduced, who is the first character not from book 1 to appear outside of her home book in said book's main story (as opposed to popping up at the end in a cutscene) and who isn't another recurring character (such as Loki or Thorr.) (She shows up to deliver a message in book 5. Small role, but if you don't know who she is, you're going to be confused.)

Also, we don't meet the villain in book 5 (Eitri) until well into it (though she was on the book art.) Likewise, as I recall, we don't meet Hel right away either. I could be wrong about that, though, or just thinking about that one paralogue where we see her speak, but don't actually see her.

As for my calling the sleeping thing an invasion, it certainly was. Freyja was forcing people into a slumber, bringing them into the nightmare realm. How else do you expect the queen of nightmares to conquer a place? It was an atypical invasion because Freyja exists on a connected plane rather than being one on the same plane. It's a different method to the same end: subjugating everyone.

As for Fafnir, I thought it was fairly clear that he's a victim, not a villain. He was being controlled the whole time. The real book villain is Eitri.

As for book 4 being different, I actually think all of the books are unique to each other. I was only debunking the claim (which was general anyway) when I pointed that conquest thing out. Also, I'd like to point out that Freyja was never trying to do bodily harm. Her goal was to bring people into endless nightmares (so, more of a mental attack than a physical one) and she really did nearly succeed there. Someone's competency should be measured by the person's ability to achieve one's goals, not what one is not trying to achieve.

Anyway, those are just things I didn't think were quite accurate about your assessment, but am open to further discussion. And thanks; I appreciate your company as well. 🙂

That is true, Peony is introduced. I really hope she ends up being significant. Maybe a TT+ for her after Eir's? I'm just not confident they will do much with her because she doesn't have a clear goal at the moment. Unlike Triandra and Plumeria who have the goal to save Freyja.

We actually meet Hel in Chapter 3, and Eitri also in chapter 3. Which is not the very beginning, but only one month after and still a whole lot sooner than Freyja's lazy butt.

Honestly to me arguing that Etri is the main villain of Book VI is like arguing that Duma is the main villain of Gaiden, or Ashera is the main villain of Radiant Dawn. She may end up being the final boss of the book, but than she would be the only main villain in FEH that not only is fought just once, but also initally seemed like a good person.

I would call her something like a "twist villain" (which are rare in FE now that I think about it. I only remember the real villains of Radiant Dawn and Flame Emperor), or "the man behind the man" but the main antagonist of this story has been poor Fafnir. And I don't see why he can't be a villain just because he is sympathetic, a victim of somebody else's plans and was being controlled. The same is true for Lyon (main villain of Sacred Stones), Julius (main villain of Geneaology) and Hardin (main villain of book 2 of FE3). But at this point we may be arguing semantics. I'm willing to agree that the position of "main villain" is shared between multiple characters in this book, but Eitri being the sole main villain? Nah. Now that I think about it, it's actually best to say that they share the role, because if either of them is the sole main villain problems arise. If it's Eitri, she has less presence than her own pawn and is only fought once. If it's Fafnir, he is the only main villain to die before the last chapter. Wow, Book 6 is actually pretty unique too in some ways.

And yeah, fair about Freyja's actual plan not involving killing. She doesn't need to be totally incompetent to be the most pathetic villain. The fact she resorted to bluffing her way into (hopefully winning) when put into a corner is already evidence enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, GrandeRampel said:

That is true, Peony is introduced. I really hope she ends up being significant. Maybe a TT+ for her after Eir's? I'm just not confident they will do much with her because she doesn't have a clear goal at the moment. Unlike Triandra and Plumeria who have the goal to save Freyja.

We actually meet Hel in Chapter 3, and Eitri also in chapter 3. Which is not the very beginning, but only one month after and still a whole lot sooner than Freyja's lazy butt.

Honestly to me arguing that Etri is the main villain of Book VI is like arguing that Duma is the main villain of Gaiden, or Ashera is the main villain of Radiant Dawn. She may end up being the final boss of the book, but than she would be the only main villain in FEH that not only is fought just once, but also initally seemed like a good person.

I would call her something like a "twist villain" (which are rare in FE now that I think about it. I only remember the real villains of Radiant Dawn and Flame Emperor), or "the man behind the man" but the main antagonist of this story has been poor Fafnir. And I don't see why he can't be a villain just because he is sympathetic, a victim of somebody else's plans and was being controlled. The same is true for Lyon (main villain of Sacred Stones), Julius (main villain of Geneaology) and Hardin (main villain of book 2 of FE3). But at this point we may be arguing semantics. I'm willing to agree that the position of "main villain" is shared between multiple characters in this book, but Eitri being the sole main villain? Nah. Now that I think about it, it's actually best to say that they share the role, because if either of them is the sole main villain problems arise. If it's Eitri, she has less presence than her own pawn and is only fought once. If it's Fafnir, he is the only main villain to die before the last chapter. Wow, Book 6 is actually pretty unique too in some ways.

And yeah, fair about Freyja's actual plan not involving killing. She doesn't need to be totally incompetent to be the most pathetic villain. The fact she resorted to bluffing her way into (hopefully winning) when put into a corner is already evidence enough.

Regarding Freyja's bluff, it makes sense since she's always been one to attack perception and the mind than the body. Likewise, the rules of the dream-verse was "believe it and it'll happen" so the best way to get her victims to lose is to make them believe they can't win. So, bluffing fits snugly there. Not saying I personally liked her or anything (she was definitely a spoiled princess type and Freyr didn't help by enabling that); it's just that the facts are the facts, you know?

As for Peony, I do think that she'll get another spotlight and probably take over as the Dream Queen if only because her design is the only one to incorporate the symbol of the light fairies. That said, she also got a double portion of dream nectar (having taken Sharena's) and she has a nightmare counterpart (just like Freyr did.) Plus, she's kind of the book's darling. Likewise, I think Triandra will wind up taking over the nightmares, even if she's going to be all "only until Lady Freyja wakes up." So, no worries there since you wanted more on her.

Now, I think the main issue we're having in order to figure out who the main villain is is our definition of "main villain." Also, "antagonist." You can be an antagonist without being a villain. Antagonists are just foils to main characters (and can even be forces of nature (such as the weather) or a character's own shortcomings (such as holding one's self back via doubts or whatever.) Villains, however, are characters and directly oppose hero-type characters, while also being characterized by evil. When I say "main villain" though, I'm talking about the overarching foe and the source of all the bad that the protagonists have to face. So, if your mind was hijacked, you're out of the running for being the main villain, according to the use of the term I'm using. Because Eitri was behind it all, and because she caused everything bad that happened to happen, she's the main villain according to how I'm using this term. The big bad -- the source of all this bad stuff. She may not have appeared too much, and even appeared friendly (to those who trusted her) but the whole time she had malicious intent and manipulated events to her favor, even discarding those she was finished with using (such as Otr and Fafnir.) To me, it's clear who the big bad of each book is: Book 1 was Veronica, Book 2 was Surtr, Book 3 was Hel, Book 4 was Freyja and Book 5 was Eitri. It's just that Eitri being the big bad was a secret until recently (at least as far as overtly stating it goes. I suspected her for a long time, personally.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

Regarding Freyja's bluff, it makes sense since she's always been one to attack perception and the mind than the body. Likewise, the rules of the dream-verse was "believe it and it'll happen" so the best way to get her victims to lose is to make them believe they can't win. So, bluffing fits snugly there. Not saying I personally liked her or anything (she was definitely a spoiled princess type and Freyr didn't help by enabling that); it's just that the facts are the facts, you know?

As for Peony, I do think that she'll get another spotlight and probably take over as the Dream Queen if only because her design is the only one to incorporate the symbol of the light fairies. That said, she also got a double portion of dream nectar (having taken Sharena's) and she has a nightmare counterpart (just like Freyr did.) Plus, she's kind of the book's darling. Likewise, I think Triandra will wind up taking over the nightmares, even if she's going to be all "only until Lady Freyja wakes up." So, no worries there since you wanted more on her.

Now, I think the main issue we're having in order to figure out who the main villain is is our definition of "main villain." Also, "antagonist." You can be an antagonist without being a villain. Antagonists are just foils to main characters (and can even be forces of nature (such as the weather) or a character's own shortcomings (such as holding one's self back via doubts or whatever.) Villains, however, are characters and directly oppose hero-type characters, while also being characterized by evil. When I say "main villain" though, I'm talking about the overarching foe and the source of all the bad that the protagonists have to face. So, if your mind was hijacked, you're out of the running for being the main villain, according to the use of the term I'm using. Because Eitri was behind it all, and because she caused everything bad that happened to happen, she's the main villain according to how I'm using this term. The big bad -- the source of all this bad stuff. She may not have appeared too much, and even appeared friendly (to those who trusted her) but the whole time she had malicious intent and manipulated events to her favor, even discarding those she was finished with using (such as Otr and Fafnir.) To me, it's clear who the big bad of each book is: Book 1 was Veronica, Book 2 was Surtr, Book 3 was Hel, Book 4 was Freyja and Book 5 was Eitri. It's just that Eitri being the big bad was a secret until recently (at least as far as overtly stating it goes. I suspected her for a long time, personally.)

If anything good can be said about Freyja is that she isn't pure evil. Just like Otr I could buy her redeeming herself if she comes back to life. Not su much for Hel, Surtr and Eitri who are way more cruel and amoral. And of course Veronica and Bruno are already redeemed we just need to lift the curse.

I hope you are right about Peony.

I guess it depends on the distinction between main antagonitlst in the game (like Black Knight), main villain behind the evil events happening (Lehran) and final boss (Ashera). Before book 6 we had all the roles in a single character.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, GrandeRampel said:

If anything good can be said about Freyja is that she isn't pure evil. Just like Otr I could buy her redeeming herself if she comes back to life. Not su much for Hel, Surtr and Eitri who are way more cruel and amoral. And of course Veronica and Bruno are already redeemed we just need to lift the curse.

I hope you are right about Peony.

I guess it depends on the distinction between main antagonitlst in the game (like Black Knight), main villain behind the evil events happening (Lehran) and final boss (Ashera). Before book 6 we had all the roles in a single character.

Yeah, I totally agree with most of that. (I'm not personally hoping for Peony's new form, but I am predicting it, and Freyja wasn't under anyone's sway -- she chose for herself what she wanted to do, and what she wanted to do was certainly evil. Otr was driven to insanity because of an actual affliction, much like a disease. It wasn't his own self who was choosing his erratic behavior. Freyja was just having an overpowered temper tantrum and making everyone suffer because of it and it's stupid. She could have and should have chosen to handle things better. Being picked when you were a kid on doesn't give you the right to put thousands of people into endless nightmares. Grow up.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IMHO it's at least partially Freyr's fault for enabling her. The problem with being a royal is that nobody can tell you what to do and it's easy to become spoiled and develop a god-complex. Being an actual god is probably even worse. Let's see how the gods we met so far fare in that department. Freyr is surprisingly alright. Embla is probably a dick considering how they cursed their own descendants. Muspell is also a dick. Nifl may have been alright once upon a time considering she had a human lover and she didn't consider herself superior to her, but nowadays she is dangerously closer to the "do as I say stupid mortal, I am your god" type. Hel was pretty terrible. Loki is unconcerned with morality and consequences, mostly caring about keeping things interesting. Thorr respects humans' strenght, but has morals just as messsed up as Loki. Chances are Askr is also selfish and prideful.

Yikes, the gods have problems. Freyja was terrible, possessive, overreacted, and made a series of increasingly dumber decisions. But the fact she at least seemed to love the people closest to her puts her a bit closer to Nifl, compared to the 100% evil gods. No, Hel didn't love Eir even a little, Eir is delisional if she believes Hel had even a shred of good in her heart.

In my opinion a good reality check like realizing how flawed she is and having to face loss and consequences could convince her to change her ways and reconsider her beliefs.

Granted Freyr's death should have been enough of a reality check, but let's be optimistic and say that dying and being resurrected will be that reality check.

I'm not even convinced she will be redeemed, I just find it probable. More probable than Loki's redemption.  I actually believe she will become the final boss after playing Alfador like a fiddle.

Edited by GrandeRampel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, GrandeRampel said:

Maybe because her design makes her look competent and threatening.

Yup, that’s the entire reason Freyja gets a pass for being a genuinely bad villain.

She is pretty much identical to Otr (who is pretty universally disliked) in terms of motivation and character, but most don’t care because she’s hot and want her to step on them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 @GrandeRampel and  @Mercakete  (I'm not going to quote all your posts, I don't think its needed otherwise this would be enourmous, but I think you can understand it well)

 

 Also, in addiction to what you two said, another important thing that happened Book IV is that Veronica relation with Askr became a little stronger since she helped them one more time.

 But if you ignore all this things, then is pretty much true that almost nothing important happened. Like, not even a decent of amount time passes (I don't exactly remember how many time they have NOT been dreaming, probably not even a day).

 But Plumeria and Triandra will surely be important later, and Peony might be too, so If you skip the book, eventually it could feel like you lost something along the way, imagine if you have to fight Triandra in the future and she says "Sorry sister but we'll have to fight now, I'll do it for Lady Freyja, she gave her life for us 2 times, when she gave us the nectar and when she ressurected me and Plumeria" You would probably think "Huh????!!! Who the hell is this?! Is she... Peony's sister?! what the fuck is 'the Nectar'? And who is this Freyja and how did she gave her life to ress-- What!? and who is Plumeria?! ". Or if Veronica eventually mentions the times she worked with Askr and brings up book IV's events you would be confused too.

 So whether book IV matters too much or not, kind of depends on the future of the game. But yeah, as for now it surely matters way less than the others, but still its importance is not even close to be null.

 

 Well, I think Freyja was a pathetical brat too. Thank god someone else agrees, I've seen so much people think she is an evil genius just because they simp for her. Like, in the nightmares world she could have done EVERYTHING she wanted and she still lost. When Alfonse and the Order defeated Hel (who had an immense power) they looked smart, but when they defeated Freyja (who was basically omnipotent) she looked incopetent instead, it was just luck for us because if she was minimally inteligent we should've lost. Thats the problem in creating an omnipotent villain when your heroes have plot armor, she has to be incopetent. I think IS felt some pressure in creating book IV because it would be hard to create a villain with more power than Hel but at the same time they couldn't raise the power scaling so much, glad that book V lowered the powerscaling down to normal but gave us an intelligent villain.


 Well, but it gives one more reason to why book IV is different, Freyja isn't a thread, what the heroes want is not to defeat her, this time thay just want to go back to reality but for that they have to defeat her.
 And I think Freyja already had the reality check, when she put herself in a coma to save Plumeria and Triandra after realizing that they stood by her side even after everything she did and that Freyr doesn't have to be the only one she loves, that was that, at least for me. Loki will likely never redeem (and I also thought about her being the final boss once, it would be cool if it happened)

 And I have to agree with Mercakete that the sleeping curse counted as an attack (I was even going to add this in my reply about how book IV also followed the formula but eventually I forgot and then someone else brought it up so I didn't edit it later), she didn't kill anyone but those people would sleep forever if it wasn't for the Order (I don't remember what she wanted by making everyone sleep but I'm almost sure I'm right). Its more the way it was done than her objective that looked like the formula, every book starts with "Oh no! Something is hurting people in that random village of Askr, lets see what it is and help!" Then they go and have to fight it and the story starts, it might have been a little different in book IV but I still think it counts.


 I also consider both Eitri and Fafnir to be the main villains of book V, he was presented as such and even if he wasn't quite himself he was a major impediment until his death, but Eitri was the one behind everything so she doesn't deserve the title less than Fafnir. Ok, if I had to chose just one it would be Eitri but I think that both of them can have it here.

 
 Wait... Was Hvergel Nifl's lover? (if this was the case then it means that she cheated in whoever her husband was with Nifl I guess)

 

3 minutes ago, Morgan--Grandmaster said:

Otr at least produced some good memes. "Now give me all your life savings for the glory of my brother Fafnir, who is super awesome."

 And the PenisBlaster

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, ARMADS!!! said:


 Wait... Was Hvergel Nifl's lover? (if this was the case then it means that she cheated in whoever her husband was with Nifl I guess)

 

That they were lovers is technically speculation. What is certain is that Nifl felt romantic love towards her, because I'm sorry deniers but you don't talk that way about your best friend.

But even if they confirm that the love was requited it doesn't mean that Hvergel cheated. Her husband could have died. They could have had a polygamous relationship.

An husband may have never existed at all and Nifl made her pregnant with her divine powers. If the christian god can do it, I don't see why she can't.

4 hours ago, Morgan--Grandmaster said:

Otr at least produced some good memes. "Now give me all your life savings for the glory of my brother Fafnir, who is super awesome."

Hey, Freyja produced one good meme. The Freyr plushie. It's better than nothing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, GrandeRampel said:

That they were lovers is technically speculation. What is certain is that Nifl felt romantic love towards her, because I'm sorry deniers but you don't talk that way about your best friend.

But even if they confirm that the love was requited it doesn't mean that Hvergel cheated. Her husband could have died. They could have had a polygamous relationship.

An husband may have never existed at all and Nifl made her pregnant with her divine powers. If the christian god can do it, I don't see why she can't.

 Maybe it's not cheating if it's with your local dragon-god 😛 (and gets your children a blessing and a protector, or at least that's how it was supposed to go.)

Since Hvergel's descendants have dragon blood, I figure whatever happened between her and Nifl has been happening since before any children were born (or else she would have had to give blood to Hvergel and each of her children separately, which is certainly possible but sounds less intuitive than just giving blood to Hvergel and the children inheriting it), so her husband if there was one should still have been alive. I don't see FEH letting someone on the good guys' side touch cheating or polyamory with a ten-foot pole, though. (Maybe if this were Jugdral or Fodlan...)

So that leaves us with immaculate conception, to be confirmed whenever IS wants to sell us a dragon Fjorm. 😛

Edited by Kori

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, ARMADS!!! said:

I don't remember what she wanted by making everyone sleep but I'm almost sure I'm right.

Freyja was teased when she was a kid (har har goat) and Freyr was there for her. That was when she closed herself off to everyone but him and I guess Freyr didn't know what to do with that and enabled this unhealthy behavior. BUT. Freyr loved humans, too. So, Freyja got jealous because she wanted all of his love to be only for her. So, she decided to punish humans for being loved by Freyr by putting them all into endless nightmares, and if you're asleep forever, you waste away until you die. And if you're in an endless nightmare, you're under mental assault for as long as you're alive. So, yeah, Freyja's terrible and Freyr was too gentle with her instead of helping her learn how to deal with her problems maturely. That said, Freyja is responsible for her own actions. So, yeah, it was a spoiled brat temper tantrum with goddess nightmare powers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, GrandeRampel said:

That they were lovers is technically speculation. What is certain is that Nifl felt romantic love towards her, because I'm sorry deniers but you don't talk that way about your best friend.

But even if they confirm that the love was requited it doesn't mean that Hvergel cheated. Her husband could have died. They could have had a polygamous relationship.

An husband may have never existed at all and Nifl made her pregnant with her divine powers. If the christian god can do it, I don't see why she can't.

Hey, Freyja produced one good meme. The Freyr plushie. It's better than nothing.

 

7 hours ago, Kori said:

 Maybe it's not cheating if it's with your local dragon-god 😛 (and gets your children a blessing and a protector, or at least that's how it was supposed to go.)

Since Hvergel's descendants have dragon blood, I figure whatever happened between her and Nifl has been happening since before any children were born (or else she would have had to give blood to Hvergel and each of her children separately, which is certainly possible but sounds less intuitive than just giving blood to Hvergel and the children inheriting it), so her husband if there was one should still have been alive. I don't see FEH letting someone on the good guys' side touch cheating or polyamory with a ten-foot pole, though. (Maybe if this were Jugdral or Fodlan...)

So that leaves us with immaculate conception, to be confirmed whenever IS wants to sell us a dragon Fjorm. 😛

 

 I'm not a "denier" I just didn't think about that before, but now that it was pointed out... Wow, Nifl's feelings became kinda obvious to me 😛 

 Also, maybe Hvergel's marriage was a facade (maybe only to have children and carry on Nifl's blood) and her real lover was always Nifl. But I think Kori might be right about what IS wouldn't want to do (I was already suprised to know that they let Nifl and Hvergel have this thing between them, being both women) and about Hvegel's husband probably being alive when her blood was blessed, so it may be just that Nifl's love was urequited (Well, even gods can simp I guess).

I'm not sure if we'll ever know too, I would like to though. What I'm truly curious to know is about Muspell's friend (whatever was the name of the first king of Muspell) and what did he do to Muspell to let him in this state (of "Friendship is fakery and blah blah blah")

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, GrandeRampel said:

Hey, Freyja produced one good meme. The Freyr plushie. It's better than nothing.

I do quite like Freyja as a villain, and actually had Eitri (who I did not like all that much, primarily for just feeling like a poor man's imitation of what came before. I'm not a fan of when the Summoner is kidnapped or otherwise reduced to a bargaining chip to begin with, because that's supposed to be me, man, and I for one, find that manipulative) in my mind when pointing it out.

Edited by Morgan--Grandmaster

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/20/2021 at 5:33 PM, GrandeRampel said:

If the christian god can do it, I don't see why she can't.

I debated saying anything on this or not, but I think that I should at least say this much: that's not what happened according to the Bible. It's best to get your facts straight if you're going to state it definitively like this. What happened there is more like in Native American mythology when the trickster spirit Raven turned himself into a speck in a woman's cup of water, she drank him, and he became the baby inside of her, and then she gave birth to him: it was an incarnation of a member of the trinity itself (although for vastly different reasons than what Raven had.)

What seems to have happened with Nifl is more like what's found in Japanese mythology: where a particular clan was blessed with the blood of a deity. Various clans would claim various deities while they were warring over which clan got to be in charge. The stronger/more reputable your clan's deity, the better a claim you had. In the end, the clan claiming descendance from Amaterasu became the imperial family. That said, my thoughts on what happened are a little different from "direct descendant," given what we know about Nifl and Hvergel. I'll explain that later down the post.

On 10/21/2021 at 1:04 AM, Kori said:

 Maybe it's not cheating if it's with your local dragon-god 😛 (and gets your children a blessing and a protector, or at least that's how it was supposed to go.)

Since Hvergel's descendants have dragon blood, I figure whatever happened between her and Nifl has been happening since before any children were born (or else she would have had to give blood to Hvergel and each of her children separately, which is certainly possible but sounds less intuitive than just giving blood to Hvergel and the children inheriting it), so her husband if there was one should still have been alive. I don't see FEH letting someone on the good guys' side touch cheating or polyamory with a ten-foot pole, though. (Maybe if this were Jugdral or Fodlan...)

So that leaves us with immaculate conception, to be confirmed whenever IS wants to sell us a dragon Fjorm. 😛

 

19 hours ago, ARMADS!!! said:

 

 

 I'm not a "denier" I just didn't think about that before, but now that it was pointed out... Wow, Nifl's feelings became kinda obvious to me 😛 

 Also, maybe Hvergel's marriage was a facade (maybe only to have children and carry on Nifl's blood) and her real lover was always Nifl. But I think Kori might be right about what IS wouldn't want to do (I was already suprised to know that they let Nifl and Hvergel have this thing between them, being both women) and about Hvegel's husband probably being alive when her blood was blessed, so it may be just that Nifl's love was urequited (Well, even gods can simp I guess).

I'm not sure if we'll ever know too, I would like to though. What I'm truly curious to know is about Muspell's friend (whatever was the name of the first king of Muspell) and what did he do to Muspell to let him in this state (of "Friendship is fakery and blah blah blah")

Alright, time to explain what I think happened based on the text we have. There's an important piece of information that I think everyone's forgetting: Nifl said that Hvergel herself had her (Nifl's) blood and because of that her (Hvergel's) descendants would also have her (Nifl's) blood. So, it's fairly obvious what happened: Nifl gave Hvergel a blessing which was so powerful that it altered her DNA. This was before Hvergel had children, according to Nifl's wording. Hvergel was killed much later, after she'd already had at least 1 child, and not from divine intervention. This is evidenced by, again, Nifl's wording. She always said "your children" not "our children" or "the children I will bless you with" or anything like that.

I also think people are too quick to jump to the conclusion that Nifl had romantic feelings for Hvergel. This could have been the case, but have other types of relationships even been considered? For example, Nifl obviously cared for Hvergel a lot, but there are myriad relationships that this could have reflected, only one of which is romantic. It could have been something like a parent-child relationship, or even a mast-and-pet relationship. But most obviously, the relationship between a divine protector and a mortal champion. This last one, in particular, is often not thought of since it's not the kind of relationship humans have with each other (which is the sort that people tend to assume since it's what they have the most experience with.) Whatever the case, it's obvious from the text that Nifl felt protective and friendly toward Hvergel, and Hvergel valued Nifl, but, there is strong evidence to suggest that Hvergel had children with a man after receiving Nifl's blessing. If IS ever wants to make their relationship plain, whatever form it takes, we'll see what it is for sure once they do so. Anything else is speculation and speculation alone, apart from the facts which have already been shared.

 

Edit: Oh right; I meant to touch upon the Muspell thing, too. Interesting point, Armads; I was thinking something similar when he began talking about that. My guess is that the one he gave his blessing to used him to gain power, and didn't actually value him, and Muspell didn't like that. Also, the first ruler of Muspell may have been a woman, since Muspell's champion is Laegjarn. IS may be making it so that the deities' champions resemble the first royals, which would mean that Askr's champion will be Alfonse and Embla's champion will be Veronica (to the surprise of no one.) After all, we already know that Askr's first king was Lif, and Embla's first queen was Thrasir, and Hel's Lif and Thrasir chose those names because of this fact. It could have been foreshadowing this. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they were thinking about all of this back then, especially since that was after Book 2 was done, and they were already building on the theme of the dragons and founders. Heck, the history of Lif was explained to us by Alfonse when Aether Raids first started.

Also, if Eir gets one of these versions (and I'm fairly sure she will), she'll probably be gaining her true mother's life powers, but ruling over Hel (realm) in honor of the one who raised her, whom she clearly had compassion for even as Hel (person) was dying. She'll probably chose to blend these two heritages and become (guess what) a valkyrie. You know, one of those ladies who ushers the spirits of dead heroes into an afterlife of peace and glory? Fits in perfectly if you ask me.

And, obviously, we'll be getting Reginn with Gramr with the blessing of her people's dragon. ... But, what if Eitri is actually the metal dragon? It's just a thought I had earlier, but eh, could be. Would explain the immortality and IS likes preserving its girls. Anyway, it's not my strongest theory, but it's a possibility.

Anyway, if this is the case, then that means all of the super special new heroes will be female (besides Alfonse.) *slow clap* Well, I guess they could make it worse and give the blessing to Sharena. It really all depends on what they're basing these guys on. Are they supposed to be like the first royals? That question determines a lot.

Edited by Mercakete

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Morgan--Grandmaster said:

I do quite like Freyja as a villain, and actually had Eitri (who I did not like all that much, primarily for just feeling like a poor man's imitation of what came before. I'm not a fan of when the Summoner is kidnapped or otherwise reduced to a bargaining chip to begin with, because that's supposed to be me, man, and I for one, find that manipulative) in my mind when pointing it out.

That and if the summoner is in the torture dungeon then who's controlling the units or summoning the Heroes? Because that's said to be us too, which we can't do if we're in the torture dungeon.

It also doesn't help that the summoner and their relation with others are a non entity. I can get it if Alfonse and Sharena would worry if the other gets into trouble, but them being panicky about some mute I've never seen them conserve with has always been really silly. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Mercakete said:

I also think people are too quick to jump to the conclusion that Nifl had romantic feelings for Hvergel. This could have been the case, but have other types of relationships even been considered?

Of course they have been. It's all but impossible to forget that this kind of romance is never a given, even when it looks like the most likely option. That doesn't mean people can't have fun indulging an interpretation they like and/or see as possible.

And no, the information about descendants hasn't been forgotten, though it's true that there were options to word it more clearly if they'd been going for them being literal children of Nifl (which, if it wasn't clear, i think you may be taking more seriously than it was meant to be).

2 hours ago, Mercakete said:

Also, if Eir gets one of these versions (and I'm fairly sure she will), she'll probably be gaining her true mother's life powers, but ruling over Hel (realm) in honor of the one who raised her, whom she clearly had compassion for even as Hel (person) was dying. She'll probably chose to blend these two heritages and become (guess what) a valkyrie. You know, one of those ladies who ushers the spirits of dead heroes into an afterlife of peace and glory? Fits in perfectly if you ask me.

That would be interesting, fitting with the life-death duality she already has and solving the possible problem that there's no one left to rule Hel. I'd like to see it.

They seem allergic to let Sharena have real importance, so I'm definitely betting on Ascended Alfonse for Askr, but I think having only one piece of data for Ascended Heroes is not quite enough to build a theory on; for all we know, the ressemblance with the first hero blessed by their dragon is a Fjorm thing only. (I expect Muspell's previous champions to have been closer to Surtr than to Laegjarn, personally.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Mercakete said:

I debated saying anything on this or not, but I think that I should at least say this much: that's not what happened according to the Bible. It's best to get your facts straight if you're going to state it definitively like this. What happened there is more like in Native American mythology when the trickster spirit Raven turned himself into a speck in a woman's cup of water, she drank him, and he became the baby inside of her, and then she gave birth to him: it was an incarnation of a member of the trinity itself (although for vastly different reasons than what Raven had.)

What seems to have happened with Nifl is more like what's found in Japanese mythology: where a particular clan was blessed with the blood of a deity. Various clans would claim various deities while they were warring over which clan got to be in charge. The stronger/more reputable your clan's deity, the better a claim you had. In the end, the clan claiming descendance from Amaterasu became the imperial family. That said, my thoughts on what happened are a little different from "direct descendant," given what we know about Nifl and Hvergel. I'll explain that later down the post.

 

Alright, time to explain what I think happened based on the text we have. There's an important piece of information that I think everyone's forgetting: Nifl said that Hvergel herself had her (Nifl's) blood and because of that her (Hvergel's) descendants would also have her (Nifl's) blood. So, it's fairly obvious what happened: Nifl gave Hvergel a blessing which was so powerful that it altered her DNA. This was before Hvergel had children, according to Nifl's wording. Hvergel was killed much later, after she'd already had at least 1 child, and not from divine intervention. This is evidenced by, again, Nifl's wording. She always said "your children" not "our children" or "the children I will bless you with" or anything like that.

I also think people are too quick to jump to the conclusion that Nifl had romantic feelings for Hvergel. This could have been the case, but have other types of relationships even been considered? For example, Nifl obviously cared for Hvergel a lot, but there are myriad relationships that this could have reflected, only one of which is romantic. It could have been something like a parent-child relationship, or even a mast-and-pet relationship. But most obviously, the relationship between a divine protector and a mortal champion. This last one, in particular, is often not thought of since it's not the kind of relationship humans have with each other (which is the sort that people tend to assume since it's what they have the most experience with.) Whatever the case, it's obvious from the text that Nifl felt protective and friendly toward Hvergel, and Hvergel valued Nifl, but, there is strong evidence to suggest that Hvergel had children with a man after receiving Nifl's blessing. If IS ever wants to make their relationship plain, whatever form it takes, we'll see what it is for sure once they do so. Anything else is speculation and speculation alone, apart from the facts which have already been shared.

 

Edit: Oh right; I meant to touch upon the Muspell thing, too. Interesting point, Armads; I was thinking something similar when he began talking about that. My guess is that the one he gave his blessing to used him to gain power, and didn't actually value him, and Muspell didn't like that. Also, the first ruler of Muspell may have been a woman, since Muspell's champion is Laegjarn. IS may be making it so that the deities' champions resemble the first royals, which would mean that Askr's champion will be Alfonse and Embla's champion will be Veronica (to the surprise of no one.) After all, we already know that Askr's first king was Lif, and Embla's first queen was Thrasir, and Hel's Lif and Thrasir chose those names because of this fact. It could have been foreshadowing this. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they were thinking about all of this back then, especially since that was after Book 2 was done, and they were already building on the theme of the dragons and founders. Heck, the history of Lif was explained to us by Alfonse when Aether Raids first started.

Also, if Eir gets one of these versions (and I'm fairly sure she will), she'll probably be gaining her true mother's life powers, but ruling over Hel (realm) in honor of the one who raised her, whom she clearly had compassion for even as Hel (person) was dying. She'll probably chose to blend these two heritages and become (guess what) a valkyrie. You know, one of those ladies who ushers the spirits of dead heroes into an afterlife of peace and glory? Fits in perfectly if you ask me.

And, obviously, we'll be getting Reginn with Gramr with the blessing of her people's dragon. ... But, what if Eitri is actually the metal dragon? It's just a thought I had earlier, but eh, could be. Would explain the immortality and IS likes preserving its girls. Anyway, it's not my strongest theory, but it's a possibility.

Anyway, if this is the case, then that means all of the super special new heroes will be female (besides Alfonse.) *slow clap* Well, I guess they could make it worse and give the blessing to Sharena. It really all depends on what they're basing these guys on. Are they supposed to be like the first royals? That question determines a lot.

 Yeah, sure, I knew that Hvergel's children were not Nifl's actual children and that they were just bounded by blood (and I think that everyone or at least most people in this discussion didn't forget it too, like Kori said), if I thought that she married Nifl I wouldn't have spoken about a husband before (like, I'm pretty sure that Nifl didn't impregnated Hvergel but I decided to not state this more explicitly before because I know that in FE community if you say that its not possible for two women to have biological children with each other, a crapton of people will come to attack you saying stuff like "You're homophobic, there's magic in Fire Emblem so who told you that there isn't a magic canon way for a woman to impragnate another?????" So I get if it wasn't exactly clear that I meant this, maybe its fine to say this in Serenes Forest i guess, here people are more rational and less wild than in Reddit or GameFaqs). I don't know how Nifl's dialogues about Hvergel go in japanese or most languages, but at least in english they seem kinda sus to me (not that I 100% belive that Nifl is in lovewith her but I think its a real possibility), so I was stating that I thought that maybe Nifl could have had an unrequited love for Hvergel. Sure, they could be close friends too and Nifl could just love Hvergel in a non romantic way , or maybe IS delivers us a crapton of weird lines from Nifl about Hvergel in the future but never lets it be explicit love, doing it in the most ambiguous way possible on purpose (its not like we didn't have a record of ambiguously romantic supports, paired endings or characters with ambiguous feeling towards other in FE games so it seems like a real possibility). To be honest, at first I didn't even considered the possibility of Nifl being in love with Hvergel (only thought about that after GrandeRampel mentioned that they were lovers and that made me think that it had been stated somewhere, but then they revealed that the thing about them being lovers was just speculation) but I have to admit that after thinking about this I can't unthink about how weirdly overly devoted Nifl is to her (like, her DEATH QUOTE is "Hvergel...", if you had lived some thousands of years, would the last thing you say be the name of a friend from hundreds of years ago that you couldn't save?), whether she loved her in a platonic way or not. Either way, I don't belive them to be "Omg, so canon" (specially as a married couple with children), and I'm almost sure that if we ever get more lines about these two's realtionship it will either show how platonic they were or just make their love ambigusouly romantic on purpose. Also, by saying that I wasn't a "denier" I meant more that I was open to the idea that Nifl could have had romantic feelings for Hvergel (and reconize that the way she adresses her is a little weird) than that I think they were surely acual lovers.

 

 Oooooh... Wasn't it stated somewhere in book II that Muspell prefers women to be sacrificed in the rite of flames or something like this? Maybe he prefers it this way because the first person he lent his power to was a women (in this case, Muspell's queen) and she let him down in some way? (maybe either as a way to "Get revenge" on her like a child, or because he misses her and doesn't really know how to cope with it? I get the impression that if Muspell 100% hated the first queen he would have killed her or something like this, so if he didn't, and very likely didn't as his bloodline keeps going, then I think he just got utterly pissed at her but still couldn't get himself to kill her)

 And I like the Ascendant Eir's idea, she would be a fair ruler to Hel, since she is not against death but also not in favor to it (and wouldn't try to create an army of dead people to raise her own power), and even says that her blade would bring death to whoever seeks it. It seems like she doesn't see death as something necessarily sad but she understands the ones who do, she just... understands death I guess? As well as she doesn't see life as something necessarily happy (neither always preferable over death) but reconizes that it can be something wonderful too, thats why she would be a perfect godess of death (and life maybe). Crap... she is the ascendant hero I would be the happier to see.

Edited by ARMADS!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/20/2021 at 5:07 AM, Mercakete said:

On the topic of Eir's mom having wings: I see. So, it was "winged" not "with wings." This could be a phrase just meaning that there was a white drape on her mother's shoulders. Could be that there were actual wings. But the fact that it was phrased so poetically calls into question if this was meant to be taken literally or not.

I was curious, so I looked into it.

English:

Mother, please... Fulfill your promise
to me, at least...
You swore to reveal the secret of
my dreams...
Why do I dimly remember us,
winged in white?

Japanese:

お母様…教えて。
お母様は私に約束してくれたわ。
私の幼い頃の記憶…
それを教えてくれるって…
白い翼…
私とお母様の…

Okā-sama... oshiete.
Okā-sama wa watashi ni yakusoku-shite kureta wa.
Watashi no osanai koro no kioku...
Sore o oshiete kureru tte...
Shiroi tsubasa...
Watashi to okā-sama no...

Rough translation (as close to literal as I can get without sounding completely awkward):

Mother... tell me.
You had promised me.
My memories when I was young...
That you would tell me about them...
The white wings...
That you and I had...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Kori said:

Of course they have been. It's all but impossible to forget that this kind of romance is never a given, even when it looks like the most likely option. That doesn't mean people can't have fun indulging an interpretation they like and/or see as possible.

And no, the information about descendants hasn't been forgotten, though it's true that there were options to word it more clearly if they'd been going for them being literal children of Nifl (which, if it wasn't clear, i think you may be taking more seriously than it was meant to be).

That would be interesting, fitting with the life-death duality she already has and solving the possible problem that there's no one left to rule Hel. I'd like to see it.

They seem allergic to let Sharena have real importance, so I'm definitely betting on Ascended Alfonse for Askr, but I think having only one piece of data for Ascended Heroes is not quite enough to build a theory on; for all we know, the ressemblance with the first hero blessed by their dragon is a Fjorm thing only. (I expect Muspell's previous champions to have been closer to Surtr than to Laegjarn, personally.)

2 hours ago, ARMADS!!! said:

 Yeah, sure, I knew that Hvergel's children were not Nifl's actual children and that they were just bounded by blood (and I think that everyone or at least most people in this discussion didn't forget it too, like Kori said), if I thought that she married Nifl I wouldn't have spoken about a husband before (like, I'm pretty sure that Nifl didn't impregnated Hvergel but I decided to not state this more explicitly before because I know that in FE community if you say that its not possible for two women to have biological children with each other, a crapton of people will come to attack you saying stuff like "You're homophobic, there's magic in Fire Emblem so who told you that there isn't a magic canon way for a woman to impragnate another?????" So I get if it wasn't exactly clear that I meant this, maybe its fine to say this in Serenes Forest i guess, here people are more rational and less wild than in Reddit or GameFaqs). I don't know how Nifl's dialogues about Hvergel go in japanese or most languages, but at least in english they seem kinda sus to me (not that I 100% belive that Nifl is in lovewith her but I think its a real possibility), so I was stating that I thought that maybe Nifl could have had an unrequited love for Hvergel. Sure, they could be close friends too and Nifl could just love Hvergel in a non romantic way , or maybe IS delivers us a crapton of weird lines from Nifl about Hvergel in the future but never lets it be explicit love, doing it in the most ambiguous way possible on purpose (its not like we didn't have a record of ambiguously romantic supports, paired endings or characters with ambiguous feeling towards other in FE games so it seems like a real possibility). To be honest, at first I didn't even considered the possibility of Nifl being in love with Hvergel (only thought about that after GrandeRampel mentioned that they were lovers and that made me think that it had been stated somewhere, but then they revealed that the thing about them being lovers was just speculation) but I have to admit that after thinking about this I can't unthink about how weirdly overly devoted Nifl is to her (like, her DEATH QUOTE is "Hvergel...", if you had lived some thousands of years, would the last thing you say be the name of a friend from hundreds of years ago that you couldn't save?), whether she loved her in a platonic way or not. Either way, I don't belive them to be "Omg, so canon" (specially as a married couple with children), and I'm almost sure that if we ever get more lines about these two's realtionship it will either show how platonic they were or just make their love ambigusouly romantic on purpose. Also, by saying that I wasn't a "denier" I meant more that I was open to the idea that Nifl could have had romantic feelings for Hvergel (and reconize that the way she adresses her is a little weird) than that I think they were surely acual lovers.

 

 Oooooh... Wasn't it stated somewhere in book II that Muspell prefers women to be sacrificed in the rite of flames or something like this? Maybe he prefers it this way because the first person he lent his power to was a women (in this case, Muspell's queen) and she let him down in some way? (maybe either as a way to "Get revenge" on her like a child, or because he misses her and doesn't really know how to cope with it? I get the impression that if Muspell 100% hated the first queen he would have killed her or something like this, so if he didn't, and very likely didn't as his bloodline keeps going, then I think he just got utterly pissed at her but still couldn't get himself to kill her)

 And I like the Ascendant Eir's idea, she would be a fair ruler to Hel, since she is not against death but also not in favor to it (and wouldn't try to create an army of dead people to raise her own power), and even says that her blade would bring death to whoever seeks it. It seems like she doesn't see death as something necessarily sad but she understands the ones who do, she just... understands death I guess? As well as she doesn't see life as something necessarily happy (neither always preferable over death) but reconizes that it can be something wonderful too, thats why she would be a perfect godess of death (and life maybe). Crap... she is the ascendant hero I would be the happier to see.

On Nifl and Hvergel:

Maybe I'm not being very clear about my stance, or maybe I'm just expecting too much. I thought I explained myself okay, but I guess not. I was addressing what someone else brought up: that Nifl could have impregnated Hvergel. And, using what text we have, I was explaining why I don't think that's the case. Then, I went into what we know vs what's speculation, as well as possibilities which haven't been discussed yet. As I said already, it could be that they had a romantic relationship. It could also be that they didn't. We just don't know yet, and may never find out definitively. And if we never do, then we never do. Another point I forgot to mention (speaking specifically to the intensity with which Nifl felt fondness for Hvergel) is that when someone learns to care about someone else for the first time, or has only 1 person he/she cares about, that person becomes the sole object of the admirer's care, and thus it greatly intensifies that care, whether romantic or platonic. In addition, indeed, a best friend you couldn't save can leave a strong and permanent mark on your heart, especially if that was your one positive relationship (not that I think Hvergel and Nifl's relationship was that of besties. Hvergel doesn't seem all that invested. It's probably more like Hvergel was Nifl's sole positive relationship and Hvergel just thought of Nifl as a benefactor and maybe master, while also being on friendly terms.) Basically, I'm just bringing up factors I haven't seen brought up, and my conclusion is what I've been saying all along: we just don't know the nature of their relationship yet. All we know for sure is that Nifl had very intense positive feelings toward Hvergel.

So, to clear up my stance, I was assessing what we know, what we don't know, and what likely conclusions may be drawn from it. It's not like I'm saying people can't theorize, but I am saying what I think is likely or unlikely based on what has been revealed.

On the "trend" of the champions being like the first rulers: I thought I said "if this is what IS is doing." So, you know, I'm not saying that this is for sure. Rather, it could be a way that they're going, and I could see it happening given Lif/Thrasir/Fjorm's connections to the first royals. I'm not basing this only off of Fjorm and Hvergel, but, as I already explained, on Lif, Thrasir, and when the names first came up.

On Muspell's issues: I guess I didn't express myself clearly here, either. I think that the first ruler of Muspell made a deal with him for power, and he wanted a friendship, but he/she tricked him into giving him/her power, and may have even made fun of him for wanting friendship. It lines up with him thinking that positive relationships are just fronts, and with his outlook on how only violence matters (which may be just him being bitter, kind of like throwing the ideology of the first ruler of Muspell around like "You think this is so great, huh? Well, fine! I'll fully embrace it!") In short? He got burned and is throwing it back in everyone's face. It's not a guess based on too much, but it would make sense. I'd like to know more about what really happened, myself.

Regarding Valkyrie Eir: Yeah, I forgot to mention those bits, too, but I did think of them. I believe Eir is called the "Merciful Death," and her weapon's name has "Lyfa" in it, I think, which means "healing."

24 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I was curious, so I looked into it.

English:

Mother, please... Fulfill your promise
to me, at least...
You swore to reveal the secret of
my dreams...
Why do I dimly remember us,
winged in white?

Japanese:

お母様…教えて。
お母様は私に約束してくれたわ。
私の幼い頃の記憶…
それを教えてくれるって…
白い翼…
私とお母様の…

Okā-sama... oshiete.
Okā-sama wa watashi ni yakusoku-shite kureta wa.
Watashi no osanai koro no kioku...
Sore o oshiete kureru tte...
Shiroi tsubasa...
Watashi to okā-sama no...

Rough translation (as close to literal as I can get without sounding completely awkward):

Mother... tell me.
You had promised me.
My memories when I was young...
That you would tell me about them...
The white wings...
That you and I had...

Can't those last two lines also be translated as "White wings...of me and my honored mother."? As far as I'm aware, the "no" particle is more of an associative connector than a hard and fast possessive marker like 's is. Still seems a bit ambiguous to me. I'm not ruling it out, of course; I'm just trying to figure out what I can stand on here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mercakete said:

Can't those last two lines also be translated as "White wings...of me and my honored mother."? As far as I'm aware, the "no" particle is more of an associative connector than a hard and fast possessive marker like 's is. Still seems a bit ambiguous to me. I'm not ruling it out, of course; I'm just trying to figure out what I can stand on here.

I'm not sure I follow how being associative changes the interpretation of the lines.

The only interpretation I can think of that changes the interpretation is if の (no) is denoting an appositive, but that would be a really strange appositive, as if you wanted to use an appositive, it would be the other way around to be unambiguous.

The wings could be metaphorical, but Hel's direct response feels a bit strange if interpreted that way.

Any other interpretation has wings attached to their bodies or wings separate from their bodies in their possession, of which the latter is highly unlikely for obvious reasons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

I'm not sure I follow how being associative changes the interpretation of the lines.

The only interpretation I can think of that changes the interpretation is if の (no) is denoting an appositive, but that would be a really strange appositive, as if you wanted to use an appositive, it would be the other way around to be unambiguous.

The wings could be metaphorical, but Hel's direct response feels a bit strange if interpreted that way.

Any other interpretation has wings attached to their bodies or wings separate from their bodies in their possession, of which the latter is highly unlikely for obvious reasons.

Yeah, I was thinking it could be metaphorical (i.e., a "white blanket" meaning "evenly-distributed snow of fair volume.") much like how it could be metaphorical in the English version. I just can't help but notice that it was translated in a somewhat abstract way for the English. ("Winged in" is not a common wording.) I feel like they wanted to leave it ambiguous, given both the Japanese and the English. For example, it could mean "reminiscent of wings" such as with a shawl or an aura, rather than just literally "having wings." I also think it could be that the symbol of Eir's original home has something to do with wings, and her memory could be combining the images (as does happen with distant memories.) And then there's the Jotunn. They have these giant birds that never really got explained. Maybe those are the wings Eir is remembering (underneath the metal, they are white.) As should be obvious, I think that there's enough room for doubt here to not be so sure about Eir and her mom literally having wings. Obviously, that is also a possibility, but I wouldn't say it's definitely the only possible thing that could have been meant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...