Book V Speculation and Discussion Thread

[Ottservia]

On 12/15/2020 at 5:03 AM, Mercakete said:

Objectification being the reason for populous representation is hardly flattering.

I mean is it really objectification if the character is well written? I’m about 99% positive the reason the freebies are female is because they sell better because this is a gacha game aimed heavily at a hardcore otaku audience. The abundance of fan service makes that evident. Even so it’s not like they write these characters in a pandery way at least as far as I’m aware(and trust me I know fetish pandering when I see it) and the only one with an overly sexual design is Peony and all the fairies have very let’s just say ecchi-esque designs except for Mirabilis. I would honestly only call it “objectification” if they were written in a overly pandery way which they aren’t and even that can be done well(See Edelgard). 

[Mercakete]

@Sentinel07

Hmm that's not a bad theory. FEH is interesting in that it tells stories by more than just "story mode" though. For example, Sharena and Fjorm (with a bit of Ylgr and Eir) predominantly lead the story in FB's (when it isn't "Kiran+Askr Trio apiece.") In that way, it feels like the role of "lead" has been split into different storytelling forums. Alfonse predominantly handles the main, overarching plot, while Sharena handles the day-to-day, more personal side of the storytelling. Anna handles funds. In that way, they each kind of suit their role: Sharena's main goal is to make friends with all the heroes, Anna's riches-obsessed, and Alfonse's destiny is more grandiose (the next king of Askr) so he handles the more world-ending stuff.

@Ottservia

It depends on how the characters are meant to be taken. If they're written to the benefit of the character (including, actually, visual character design) then it's not objectification. If they're written for the benefit of the audience's desires, then it's objectification. There are ways to write compelling, engaging, relatable and realistic characters in a way that is good for both, but you have to prioritize what's in-character and not what the audience desires. The audience will still enjoy it and you protect the integrity of the character. IS usually does a pretty good job of this (FE8, FE9, and FE16 are good examples of this) but they certainly know how to write male characters better than female ones. The male ones tend to be more complex and seem to have their own motivations, while the female ones tend to (but don't always) have tropes or archetypes filling in gaps. You have "the peppy type," "the cold beauty," "the innocent, little girl," and so on which most female characters can fit into. Titainia, for example, is one that only barely fits into "the mother" archetype, and instead has her own motivations and complex emotions, which don't often get expressed but are certainly there. This is why I say that, generally, IS has a harder time writing female characters than male.

Sure, the dudes have some commonalities sometimes, but (generally) each one is still much more than what they have in common. For example, both Ogma and Diek were gladiators who were rescued from that life, but they're both so different from each other, having much more complexity than a handful of traits to pull from and form the character's "whole." Even with more all-consuming similarities (like Marth, Alm, and Alfonse being "the idealistic, kind, and hopeful" types), the characters are still distinct, and may even have points they would each disagree with each other on. Also, the designs of male characters tend to be more focused on practicality and less on looking "cute" or "sexy." Sure, they may look cool, but not at the expense of practicality/comfort/dignity (unless it's in-character for the wearer.) You also get a bigger variety in character designs with males (faces, body types), such as the differences between Helbindi, Python, Nils, Sephiran, Oliver, and Wrys. Conventional beauty standards pretty much never leave the female designs, though. The best in terms of variety I can think of with the ladies are Reina (who still adheres for the most part to conventional beauty standards), Meg (who still has a cute face), Vaida (who still has dem curves, even though her face is scarred and she has a tougher haircut), Rinkah (muscle girl, but still has a soft cuteness to her facial features) and that one old lady from FE8 who basically is just pointing the way to somewhere else. And of these, only 1 is in Heroes, let alone Heroes' own selection of female characters native to this game. Ylgr (little girl type), Sharena, Peony, Reginn (peppy type), Triandra, Leavateinn, Veronica, Eir (cold beauty type), Fjorm, Thorr, Anna (earnest type; though Anna is borderline peppy type since she gets that way about money), Gunnthra, Laegjarn ("motherly" type), Mirabilis (absent-minded type), Freyja (spoiled type; Veronica somewhat fits in here, too, especially in book 1), Loki, Plumeria ("sexy" type.) Hel is interesting in that she mainly fills her role as a villain and has complexity to her motivations and behavior, instead of falling into a "girl type." (This is also why I like her so much.) Thrasir kind of falls into this, too. You can also see the behavior of these ladies (all the ones listed before Hel and Thrasir) heavily influencing how they dress, instead of what role they fill being the predominant influence on attire. The valkyries and witch are as of yet unknown, at least as far as behavior goes.

So, is there objectification (which is turning a person into an object designed to serve the one interacting with it like some sort of appliance or tool) here? Absolutely. Thankfully, it's not as bad as other fantasy games, but that doesn't mean it's not there. The guys get objectification a little bit, too, but it's not as rampant. What would be best is if there was NO objectification at all, especially since how one thinks of characters can easily change how they think of other people in their own lives. Like, some hidden thought in the unconscious mind valuing people who are nice to look at more than ones who aren't, and so on. It's a dangerous, subtle line of thinking that needs to be carefully monitored. One good way to do this is to ask yourself why you have one opinion or another about other people around you. Just a bit of introspection to make sure you're valuing the right things in others, and not beginning to think of others as having the job of keeping you entertained and so on. But, it's not like I'm putting all the responsibility on media. Each person is responsible for his or her own thoughts, and for the sake of others, needs to keep those thoughts in check. It's not good to have an impatient, entitled attitude towards others, after all.

So, when I said "objectification being the reason for populous representation is hardly flattering," I meant that whole "there are a lot of females here because they sell better" instead of "there are a lot of girls here because they're characters first and just so happen to be female." Where are the female grizzled warriors? The female slippery cowards? The female over-indulgers in food and drink? The female knights who cover themselves in armor that hide their figures because of practicality? We at least got a tyrant queen in the form of Hel, but otherwise, these other roles tend to be reserved for men because they're not particularly beautiful/visually "tickling." Not to mention the lack of double chins, crooked noses, wrinkles, and sturdy jaws. The guys get all the variety...because conventional beauty standards seem more like a rule for females than the occasional tool for telling the males' stories/informing what sort of guy he is.

[Mercakete]

On 12/13/2020 at 4:46 AM, DefyingFates said:

I don't think the Valkyries are evil though. At worst they're probably like Thorr who opposes the Heroes as a way to test them, since they give Reginn that sword in the movie and the poster has one of them looking concerned.

So, I was just thinking about this, and I believe I know one reason why I'm so suspicious of them. Think about it: what's the role of a valkyrie in the source mythology? They find warriors on the battlefield and take them to Valhalla. That is, they ferry the dead to a glorious afterlife. They don't really help with the whole "living" thing. Plus, I find it extremely likely that they're serving Alfador directly (that is, valkyries in general), making them enemies since Alfador is looking to be the final big bad. At best, I think they have a Thorr-esque role, looking to bring out the potential of mortals for an interesting final confrontation.

[Othin]

58 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

So, I was just thinking about this, and I believe I know one reason why I'm so suspicious of them. Think about it: what's the role of a valkyrie in the source mythology? They find warriors on the battlefield and take them to Valhalla. That is, they ferry the dead to a glorious afterlife. They don't really help with the whole "living" thing. Plus, I find it extremely likely that they're serving Alfador directly (that is, valkyries in general), making them enemies since Alfador is looking to be the final big bad. At best, I think they have a Thorr-esque role, looking to bring out the potential of mortals for an interesting final confrontation.

Hmm. Now that you put it that way, I wonder if they'll share the role of "book's final boss", rather than one single one getting primary focus.

That could go along with them playing the role of Alfador's two lieutenants here, just with Alfador himself being absent.

[Etrurian emperor]

On 12/17/2020 at 11:27 AM, Mercakete said:

@Sentinel07

Hmm that's not a bad theory. FEH is interesting in that it tells stories by more than just "story mode" though. For example, Sharena and Fjorm (with a bit of Ylgr and Eir) predominantly lead the story in FB's (when it isn't "Kiran+Askr Trio apiece.") In that way, it feels like the role of "lead" has been split into different storytelling forums. Alfonse predominantly handles the main, overarching plot, while Sharena handles the day-to-day, more personal side of the storytelling. Anna handles funds. In that way, they each kind of suit their role: Sharena's main goal is to make friends with all the heroes, Anna's riches-obsessed, and Alfonse's destiny is more grandiose (the next king of Askr) so he handles the more world-ending stuff.

@Ottservia

It depends on how the characters are meant to be taken. If they're written to the benefit of the character (including, actually, visual character design) then it's not objectification. If they're written for the benefit of the audience's desires, then it's objectification. There are ways to write compelling, engaging, relatable and realistic characters in a way that is good for both, but you have to prioritize what's in-character and not what the audience desires. The audience will still enjoy it and you protect the integrity of the character. IS usually does a pretty good job of this (FE8, FE9, and FE16 are good examples of this) but they certainly know how to write male characters better than female ones. The male ones tend to be more complex and seem to have their own motivations, while the female ones tend to (but don't always) have tropes or archetypes filling in gaps. You have "the peppy type," "the cold beauty," "the innocent, little girl," and so on which most female characters can fit into. Titainia, for example, is one that only barely fits into "the mother" archetype, and instead has her own motivations and complex emotions, which don't often get expressed but are certainly there. This is why I say that, generally, IS has a harder time writing female characters than male.

Sure, the dudes have some commonalities sometimes, but (generally) each one is still much more than what they have in common. For example, both Ogma and Diek were gladiators who were rescued from that life, but they're both so different from each other, having much more complexity than a handful of traits to pull from and form the character's "whole." Even with more all-consuming similarities (like Marth, Alm, and Alfonse being "the idealistic, kind, and hopeful" types), the characters are still distinct, and may even have points they would each disagree with each other on. Also, the designs of male characters tend to be more focused on practicality and less on looking "cute" or "sexy." Sure, they may look cool, but not at the expense of practicality/comfort/dignity (unless it's in-character for the wearer.) You also get a bigger variety in character designs with males (faces, body types), such as the differences between Helbindi, Python, Nils, Sephiran, Oliver, and Wrys. Conventional beauty standards pretty much never leave the female designs, though. The best in terms of variety I can think of with the ladies are Reina (who still adheres for the most part to conventional beauty standards), Meg (who still has a cute face), Vaida (who still has dem curves, even though her face is scarred and she has a tougher haircut), Rinkah (muscle girl, but still has a soft cuteness to her facial features) and that one old lady from FE8 who basically is just pointing the way to somewhere else. And of these, only 1 is in Heroes, let alone Heroes' own selection of female characters native to this game. Ylgr (little girl type), Sharena, Peony, Reginn (peppy type), Triandra, Leavateinn, Veronica, Eir (cold beauty type), Fjorm, Thorr, Anna (earnest type; though Anna is borderline peppy type since she gets that way about money), Gunnthra, Laegjarn ("motherly" type), Mirabilis (absent-minded type), Freyja (spoiled type; Veronica somewhat fits in here, too, especially in book 1), Loki, Plumeria ("sexy" type.) Hel is interesting in that she mainly fills her role as a villain and has complexity to her motivations and behavior, instead of falling into a "girl type." (This is also why I like her so much.) Thrasir kind of falls into this, too. You can also see the behavior of these ladies (all the ones listed before Hel and Thrasir) heavily influencing how they dress, instead of what role they fill being the predominant influence on attire. The valkyries and witch are as of yet unknown, at least as far as behavior goes.

So, is there objectification (which is turning a person into an object designed to serve the one interacting with it like some sort of appliance or tool) here? Absolutely. Thankfully, it's not as bad as other fantasy games, but that doesn't mean it's not there. The guys get objectification a little bit, too, but it's not as rampant. What would be best is if there was NO objectification at all, especially since how one thinks of characters can easily change how they think of other people in their own lives. Like, some hidden thought in the unconscious mind valuing people who are nice to look at more than ones who aren't, and so on. It's a dangerous, subtle line of thinking that needs to be carefully monitored. One good way to do this is to ask yourself why you have one opinion or another about other people around you. Just a bit of introspection to make sure you're valuing the right things in others, and not beginning to think of others as having the job of keeping you entertained and so on. But, it's not like I'm putting all the responsibility on media. Each person is responsible for his or her own thoughts, and for the sake of others, needs to keep those thoughts in check. It's not good to have an impatient, entitled attitude towards others, after all.

So, when I said "objectification being the reason for populous representation is hardly flattering," I meant that whole "there are a lot of females here because they sell better" instead of "there are a lot of girls here because they're characters first and just so happen to be female." Where are the female grizzled warriors? The female slippery cowards? The female over-indulgers in food and drink? The female knights who cover themselves in armor that hide their figures because of practicality? We at least got a tyrant queen in the form of Hel, but otherwise, these other roles tend to be reserved for men because they're not particularly beautiful/visually "tickling." Not to mention the lack of double chins, crooked noses, wrinkles, and sturdy jaws. The guys get all the variety...because conventional beauty standards seem more like a rule for females than the occasional tool for telling the males' stories/informing what sort of guy he is.

Overall that's a very strong post.  Its true that male characters often have more freedom in their designs while female characters tend to stick to more rigid archerypes. Put all ''Merricks'' next to each other and you see a far more varied bunch then if you were to put all Pegasus sisters next to each other. You can also really see it in the younger characters where most loli characters not named Sanaki revolve around their particular archetype of ''the shy one'' or ''the hyperactive one'' while characters like Tormod or Nils are more like actual characters who merely carry some traits of their respective archetypes rather than being dominated by it. 

But while to a lesser extend the males do have some restrictions on them too. They too are likely mandated to be conventionally attractive, certainly if they are important. The lords, all of them from Marth up to Alfonse are pretty much all conventionally attractive teenagers/very young adults with at least half of them having some feminine traits in their design. Even the more rough and tumble ones like Hector don't seem brutish but just manly while still being youthful. The only lord who's appearance has some sort of flaw in it is Sigurd with his gigantic chin who then proceeds to get replaced by a younger lord who takes after his mom. You've got your more outlandishly ugly designs like Gonzalez but its worth noting that such designs are only there for very minor characters. If you're a male in the lord's inner circle who's often around in cutscenes you're pretty much always either handsome or cute. On that front its absolutely no coincidence that the Jagen's started becoming progressively younger after Marcus and that Gunther, the only Jagen who defied this trend got exiled from the plot pretty quickly. These days Jagen's are more like the lord's older sibling or a very young mother in the case of Titania. 

Not to beat a dead horse but Fates and Awakening are the best example of designs suddenly becoming really restrictive. Just about every character was conventionally attractive and they were either a teenager or a young adult in their very early twenties. In Fates the males that are mature and manly can likely be counted on one hand. This is likely because shipping became a much big focus so everyone had to be conventionally attractive, which in turn left less room for an old hag like Niime or a venerable old soldier like Tauroneo. Even when taking shipping into account I always found this a flawed sentiment of the devs. You can be older than 24 and still be incredibly attractive. I've always found the more graceful and mature ladies like Titania to have very appealing designs, and many fans would likely unironically appreciate a ''daddy'' like Gerik. It also got a teensy bit awkward when Fates decided to make large parts of the cast even younger than the cast of Awakening. 

On that front Three Houses was clearly a course correction. The general sentiment that characters should be attractive is still there to some extend. Its absolutely no coincident that the archbishop's hips are a religion of their own or that the stern principle is a daddy in more than one sense of the word. But you also have Gilbert. It doesn't matter if Gilbert is elderly and controversial, he's still going to be the secondary main character of Azure Moon and you'll like it, dammit! You also have Claude who's got to be the first lord in the series with facial hair, Hubert the plot important npc who looks like a zombie or Lorenz who looks like Lorenz and even gets to wear a speedo. To some extend even the woman come in more shapes and sizes this time around with there even being a desperate drunk in the cast. 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Etrurian emperor

[Ottservia]

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

On that front Three Houses was clearly a course correction

Well it’s too bad kurahana is no where near as good a character designer as Kozaki is. Like honestly 3H has probably some of the most bland and boring character design to date. They’re not the worst in the franchise mind you because the nifl siblings exist and there are a few diamonds in the rough but overall the character design is rather lacking at least when compared to the likes of Senri or Kozaki.

[Etrurian emperor]

24 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Well it’s too bad kurahana is no where near as good a character designer as Kozaki is. Like honestly 3H has probably some of the most bland and boring character design to date. They’re not the worst in the franchise mind you because the nifl siblings exist and there are a few diamonds in the rough but overall the character design is rather lacking at least when compared to the likes of Senri or Kozaki.

I certainly wouldn't say Fates has bad character designs. In fact the designs are often really good. Even Garon of all people stands out in having an amazing design. 

[Mercakete]

On 12/13/2020 at 6:33 PM, Mercakete said:

Now, there are a few ways this could go. First, the madness could be stopped and Fafnir and Otr switch sides. In this case, I expect the valkyries to be the actual lieutenants, making people think they can trust them, but actually being on the big bad's side, or being joint big-bads themselves (fulfilling both the role of the big bad and the lieutenants, and already serving Alfador, hence not needing to be recruited.) Second, Fafnir could be rescued from his madness, but madness overcomes Otr. In this scenario, it could also be that both of the valkyries serve Alfador, but one has a change of heart and joins us alongside Fafnir, while the other "becomes" one of the lieutenants alongside Otr. Third, the madness could take over both brothers entirely and they become the lieutenants to whatever is causing the madness (which I am certain is the true big bad.)

Basically, I'm calling IS' bluff. They're trying to make Fafnir look like the actual big bad, but I really don't think that's the case. There's something much more sinister causing this, and I believe that, at the end of the book, whatever it is will be the final boss of the book. (Also, for now, I'm thinking this madness-inducing big bad is Yellow Kiran.)

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Hmm. Now that you put it that way, I wonder if they'll share the role of "book's final boss", rather than one single one getting primary focus.

That could go along with them playing the role of Alfador's two lieutenants here, just with Alfador himself being absent.

@Othin Yep. That was one of the theories I posed.

 

@Etrurian emperor

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...or a very young mother in the case of Titania.

Titania's supposed to be in her 30's or 40's, man.

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It also got a teensy bit awkward when Fates decided to make large parts of the cast even younger than the cast of Awakening. 

Personally, I found it more awkward that the avatar character was already related to half the marriage candidates, but that's more an "in addition to" point.

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You also have Claude who's got to be the first lord in the series with facial hair

Technically speaking, Eliwood and Hector might actually be the first, even though their facial hair doesn't make an appearance in FE7, I think. (I think they do in FE6, though.)

As for your points on 3H, I completely agree. The female characters were written in a much more relatable way, though we still didn't quite get a battle-hardened, grizzled, middle-aged lady who looks like she's a battle-hardened, grizzled, middle-aged lady. (Someone please just gender-bend Dozla or Jeralt without cleaning up their rougher features.) The closest we got was Catherine, but at least it was a step in the right direction.

On the point of the main guys being attractive, I think it's less that and more that the main guys are "clean." Clear-skinned, clean-shaven, bright-eyed, well-kept hair, and smooth features. That, I understand. This is art, after all. However...compare their clothes and armor to those of the ladies'.

The guys get to wear practical attire, covering them from neck to toe, even wearing reasonable layers and sometimes armor on top of it. The women? ... It's like it's a rule that they have to show leg or bust. This is especially bad in Fates. I mean, look at the default female "armor" for cavs and knights. Why are their legs completely exposed? I kind of understand Rinkah's chest-wrap; she's a zerker, pretty much, and being as bare-chested as possible is a zerker thing. But pantsless cavaliers? Seriously? Your legs are going to be raw, man. And if you're going to be a knight on the front lines, you're going to want as much armor covering you as possible. So why does Benny get full coverage but Effie has to show her legs? And don't even get me started on pegasus knights, especially since most countries who have them have cold climates (at least in Elibe and the world of FE4/5.) What's with all the miniskirts? And what even is that armor supposed to protect against? And even when things are covered on females, they're sometimes ridiculously skin-tight in order to show off her curves. There is nothing realistic about these designs -- they're just as they are because "we're dressing cute girls who need to look cute." Or, alternatively, "let's show off as many curves and creases as possible." with things only getting worse (until 3H) as time went on. Titania's armor, for example, makes sense, and is pretty similar to the male variant of the class'. But then you have (as alluded to before) Silas' practical attire vs his daughter's. Or even compare the 2 Corrins' Nohrian promoted class outfits. They are literally the same person with only being male or female as the difference, and yet their outfits are incredibly different in terms of practicality vs...I'm not even sure what word to put here, but you know what I mean.

One thing about Reginn's design that irritated me was her skin-tight outfit, but Fafnir seems to have the same look going, even though Otr gets pants and a waist wrap, so it's more of a cultural thing, so I was okay(ish) with it. Honestly, though... Sharena's wearing short shorts, Peony's flashing everyone whenever she flies, etc. etc. And then look at Alfonse in comparison to his sister: practical, comfortable clothes. And what about Freyr (the ONLY male fairy, and even then he's not actually a fairy, but he's the only one available for comparing to Peony): dressed in all-covering robes. And looking outside of Heroes, to the rest of the series, it's hard to find guys who dress as ridiculously and uncomfortably as the vast majority of the girls (and again, I'm not counting zerkers, just like I didn't for Rinkah). The only one really coming to mind is Odin, and his daughter kind of balances him out in that way, being his outfit-counterpart.

As for women dressed reasonably, or at least comparatively to most FE male lords? Lucina comes to mind, and even then, she's actually trying to dress like Marth so I'm not sure if she counts. I guess there's Edelgard, too, but we've already established that 3H did a much better job of repping the women than most of the rest of the series. I guess there's Jill, too, despite the bright colors (which makes you a most excellent target, but bright colors are everywhere so eh.) I guess Maribelle of all people also wears something kind of practical, but I don't know how to rank her since her hair is clearly high-maintainence. At least she knows to wear pants if she's going to ride a horse.

Anyway, as you can see, generally speaking, the guys' looks and behavior comes from who they are, while the girls' looks and behavior comes from "we're designing a girl," which turns her from a character to a product, and that's hardly representing actual females looking for people to relate to/admire for things other than physical appearance. It's irritating. Girls dream of going on adventures and stuff just as much as boys do, after all. We value things like courage and grit, too. So often, though, female characters in fantasy are portrayed as something to look at who maybe gets a participation award, though... There just aren't that many strong female characters who look normal and behave...well, like a character first and a female second, instead of the other way around. I mean, in fantasy, how many times do the female characters look conventionally beautiful, never even scuffing their makeup, and have to overcome problems in the "feminine" bin? Like, "oh no, she's scared and has to overcome that fear by believing in this other person!" or "oh no, she was threatened with her beauty being taken away!" or "oh no, she has to prove that girls can handle things that guys can and is facing discrimination for being female!" or whatever else? It's like girls can only be allowed to face problems that are acceptably feminine. I wish people would stop using girls as items or to make a "girl power" point, and just treat them as regular people already. What it's like today certainly isn't what I was hoping for when I was wishing for women to appear more in fantasy when I was a kid.

[Ottservia]

48 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

Anyway, as you can see, generally speaking, the guys' looks and behavior comes from who they are, while the girls' looks and behavior comes from "we're designing a girl," which turns her from a character to a product, and that's hardly representing actual females looking for people to relate to/admire for things other than physical appearance. It's irritating. Girls dream of going on adventures and stuff just as much as boys do, after all. We value things like courage and grit, too. So often, though, female characters in fantasy are portrayed as something to look at who maybe gets a participation award, though... There just aren't that many strong female characters who look normal and behave...well, like a character first and a female second, instead of the other way around. I mean, in fantasy, how many times do the female characters look conventionally beautiful, never even scuffing their makeup, and have to overcome problems in the "feminine" bin? Like, "oh no, she's scared and has to overcome that fear by believing in this other person!" or "oh no, she was threatened with her beauty being taken away!" or "oh no, she has to prove that girls can handle things that guys can and is facing discrimination for being female!" or whatever else? It's like girls can only be allowed to face problems that are acceptably feminine. I wish people would stop using girls as items or to make a "girl power" point, and just treat them as regular people already. What it's like today certainly isn't what I was hoping for when I was wishing for women to appear more in fantasy when I was a kid.

You my good sir need to watch more fantasy anime. Particularly those of the Shoujo variety. I think you would like what you find there. Even so there are plenty of female characters like of you describe even in Fire Emblem you just kind of have to look. My favorite character in the franchise is a character defined by her inferiority complex to her mother and the loneliness and neglect she’s felt as a result. 

 

51 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

But pantsless cavaliers? Seriously? Your legs are going to be raw, man. And if you're going to be a knight on the front lines, you're going to want as much armor covering you as possible. So why does Benny get full coverage but Effie has to show her legs?

It’s an otaku fetishized design trope. Known as the absolute territory referring the small strip of skin between the skirt and the top of the stockings(or boots). It’s fairly common in pretty much anything with an anime-esque artstyle. It’s largely associated with tsunderes but not exclusive to them. Hell three houses isn’t exempt from it. You can even find it in Pokémon’s character design. Personally, I don’t care much for realism. If the design looks good then the design looks good, Male or female. So long as the design communicates what it needs to about the character then fine I’m not gonna complain. Cause like sometimes these developers are horny and so long as they’re open about(See Yoko Taro) that then I don’t see the issue

[DefyingFates]

1 hour ago, Mercakete said:

snip

 

applause

This is beautifully said. I didn't want to quote it because it was so long, but I love everything you wrote here and there's really nothing I can add other than agreeing that Reginn's outfit is probably a uniform for riding her mech. Thank you so much for this! As someone who was so happy with IS' decision to give women practical attire (more practical at the very least) in 3H...yeah, I'm totally on board with everything you said here, thank you!

To get back on topic before people start getting banned though, you made a good point about the valkyries that I didn't think of before about their role being to escort the dead (I wonder if Eir is related to them in some way); I wouldn't be surprised if they're trying to ramp up the conflict or at the very least testing both sides as Thorr was before. Thanks again!

[Mercakete]

28 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

You my good sir need to watch more fantasy anime. Particularly those of the Shoujo variety. I think you would like what you find there. Even so there are plenty of female characters like of you describe even in Fire Emblem you just kind of have to look. My favorite character in the franchise is a character defined by her inferiority complex to her mother and the loneliness and neglect she’s felt as a result.

1. I am not a "sir." 2. I have watched shoujou anime. Still looking for gnarled middle-aged ladies who kick butt but aren't superhuman and live by a code of chivalry. 3. I know about Severa. 4. "Inferiority complex" is one of those issues considered "feminine-appropriate."

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It’s an otaku fetishized design trope. Known as the absolute territory referring the small strip of skin between the skirt and the top of the stockings(or boots). It’s fairly common in pretty much anything with an anime-esque artstyle. It’s largely associated with tsunderes but not exclusive to them. Hell three houses isn’t exempt from it. You can even find it in Pokémon’s character design. Personally, I don’t care much for realism. If the design looks good then the design looks good, Male or female. So long as the design communicates what it needs to about the character then fine I’m not gonna complain. Cause like sometimes these developers are horny and so long as they’re open about(See Yoko Taro) that then I don’t see the issue

I know. That's the problem.

Edit:

@DefyingFates

Thanks. 🙂 ...Whatever it is I said that you agreed with; not sure which post you snipped, though I have a guess. XD

As for Eir, it was said that she was the daughter of a light (or was it life?) god, so there's the chance we'll meet him/her at some point. Could even be Alfador himself, which, for now, is what I'm guessing.

Edited December 18, 2020 by Mercakete

[Ottservia]

2 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

4. "Inferiority complex" is one of those issues considered "feminine-appropriate."

I don’t understand this mindset. Tropes and character arcs are just that. It’s not like it’s an exclusively female character trope. 1. Male tsunderes exist although the trope is slightly altered(See Takumi) and 2. Inferiority complex is not a female exclusive thing(again see Takumi). And it’s not like male characters also don’t suffer from gender stereotypes in fiction. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen people complain about how midoriya cries too much when that is quite literally the point of his character. Personally, if the character is well written I don’t really care. All I want out of my fictional characters is for them to be relatable so I can grow attached to them and watch them overcome struggles and adversity. If it’s a good character it’s a good character then I’m not gonna complain.

 

10 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

know. That's the problem.

Hey, I will not tolerate Yoko Taro disrespect on here.

[DefyingFates]

9 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

Thanks. 🙂 ...Whatever it is I said that you agreed with; not sure which post you snipped, though I have a guess. XD

As for Eir, it was said that she was the daughter of a light (or was it life?) god, so there's the chance we'll meet him/her at some point. Could even be Alfador himself, which, for now, is what I'm guessing.

It was the post directly above mine, but I imagine that's what you were thinking too.

As for Eir's parents: at first I assumed it had been written off by the end of her Book, but the callback to it in 4 gave me hope that IS will eventually tie up that loose end. It'd be particularly interesting if she was descended from Alfadhor, considering his role as Book 7 (or 6's) antagonist. Wow!

[Mercakete]

6 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I don’t understand this mindset. Tropes and character arcs are just that. It’s not like it’s an exclusively female character trope. 1. Male tsunderes exist although the trope is slightly altered(See Takumi) and 2. Inferiority complex is not a female exclusive thing(again see Takumi). And it’s not like male characters also don’t suffer from gender stereotypes in fiction. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen people complain about how midoriya cries too much when that is quite literally the point of his character. Personally, if the character is well written I don’t really care. All I want out of my fictional characters is for them to be relatable so I can grow attached to them and watch them overcome struggles and adversity. If it’s a good character it’s a good character then I’m not gonna complain.

 

Hey, I will not tolerate Yoko Taro disrespect on here.

1st bit: I never said that men (characters or not) don't have that same issue. I said it's an issue that's considered "feminine-appropriate." For example, issues that make one feel bad for the character are often "feminine-appropriate" because people want to feel bad for her/indulge in protective instincts toward the female. Issues of beauty are also feminine-appropriate. Issues which require the female to take a supportive role, or to show gentleness and grace are also "feminine-appropriate." Basically, anything that lets her appear vulnerable/beautiful/graceful/able-to-be-provided-for, and so on. And as I've said, the issue isn't that these characters exist. It's the saturation of them. I also never said that people don't get upset with male characters for having non-masculine problems. It's another thing that irritates me, actually: when people get mad at a guy for crying or having more sensitive issues than brawling. But that's not the topic here. All we were discussing was objectification, as will be expounded upon in my next bit.

2nd bit: What disrespect? All I was addressing was that female characters are treated less as characters and more as objects. You're the one who asked if a character being "well-written" counts as objectification. That's all I've been discussing. If you like female characters being objectified, then fine. I don't. And that's that. 2 opinions about 1 fact have been identified, and there's no more need to discuss it. Which is right or wrong? That's a whole other topic and not one I want to dive into since it turns into toxic arguments.

@DefyingFates

Yeah, that's my current guess. A parent, by nature of being a parent, brings life into the world, after all. Stands to reason if Alfador has the role of "all father" that he'd have some sort of "life god" role. Also, I wonder if these gods who serve him are actually other (besides Eir) children of his instead of the "harem" joke that's floating around. I do wonder who Eir's parents are. Maybe it's her mom who's the life deity.

[Etrurian emperor]

27 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

And it’s not like male characters also don’t suffer from gender stereotypes in fiction. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen people complain about how midoriya cries too much when that is quite literally the point of his character.

Yeah to some extend. I used to roll my eyes a bit whenever the subject of ''toxic masculinity'' came up but seeing people tear into poor Deku for being in touch with his feelings, as well as Ignatz weirdly bad reputation did somewhat change my mind on that one. 

Not that there aren't actual complaints you can make at Deku or Ignatz. I have heard some complaints I don't agree with but can at least respect. But I also heard a lot of grumbling about them being too soft, crybabies, unmanly. 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Etrurian emperor

[DefyingFates]

30 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

as well as Ignatz weirdly bad reputation did somewhat change my mind on that one. 

Yeah, poor Ignatz. What sucks is that the average player is probably just like him too or would be equally starstruck if they were a merchant's kid schooling alongside the descendants of literal war heroes and famed knights. I personally think he comes off as a bit too much of a pushover in his support with Hilda (which she calls him out on, thankfully) but otherwise he's just a regular guy and suffers for it.

Spoiler

I also think it's hilarious that he almost has a heart attack in his S Support.

 

[Ottservia]

2 hours ago, Mercakete said:

1st bit: I never said that men (characters or not) don't have that same issue. I said it's an issue that's considered "feminine-appropriate." For example, issues that make one feel bad for the character are often "feminine-appropriate" because people want to feel bad for her/indulge in protective instincts toward the female. Issues of beauty are also feminine-appropriate. Issues which require the female to take a supportive role, or to show gentleness and grace are also "feminine-appropriate." Basically, anything that lets her appear vulnerable/beautiful/graceful/able-to-be-provided-for, and so on. And as I've said, the issue isn't that these characters exist. It's the saturation of them. I also never said that people don't get upset with male characters for having non-masculine problems. It's another thing that irritates me, actually: when people get mad at a guy for crying or having more sensitive issues than brawling. But that's not the topic here. All we were discussing was objectification, as will be expounded upon in my next bit.

 

First of all fair enough

 

2 hours ago, Mercakete said:

2nd bit: What disrespect? All I was addressing was that female characters are treated less as characters and more as objects. You're the one who asked if a character being "well-written" counts as objectification. That's all I've been discussing. If you like female characters being objectified, then fine. I don't. And that's that. 2 opinions about 1 fact have been identified, and there's no more need to discuss it. Which is right or wrong? That's a whole other topic and not one I want to dive into since it turns into toxic arguments.

I was being hyperbolic for the sake of humor cause Y’know the reason 2B has the fanservicey design she has is because Yoko Taro was horny I don’t think that’s a bad thing personally.

Edited December 18, 2020 by Ottservia

[Mercakete]

2 hours ago, Ottservia said:

I was being hyperbolic for the sake of humor cause Y’know the reason 2B has the fanservicey design she has is because Yoko Taro was horny I don’t think that’s a bad thing personally.

Okay. I wasn't sure whether you were joking or not. I thought you may be, but I didn't want to take a serious point lightly, so I erred on that just in case.

[Sentinel07]

12 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

Yeah, poor Ignatz. What sucks is that the average player is probably just like him too or would be equally starstruck if they were a merchant's kid schooling alongside the descendants of literal war heroes and famed knights. I personally think he comes off as a bit too much of a pushover in his support with Hilda (which she calls him out on, thankfully) but otherwise he's just a regular guy and suffers for it.

  Reveal hidden contents

I also think it's hilarious that he almost has a heart attack in his S Support.

 

I feel like "regular people" are really undervalued. Ignatz is certainly one example. He's very much like a regular shy teenage boy, and I like him a lot for that reason. Sadly, he gets very overlooked for that reason.

Annette is kind of similar. Out of all the girls in Three Houses, she's pretty much the "normal girl" for all intents and purposes, and in my experience, she gets overlooked a lot compared to her fellow Blue Lion girls as well as girls from the other houses.

[Sentinel07]

On 12/17/2020 at 3:27 AM, Mercakete said:

Hmm that's not a bad theory. FEH is interesting in that it tells stories by more than just "story mode" though. For example, Sharena and Fjorm (with a bit of Ylgr and Eir) predominantly lead the story in FB's (when it isn't "Kiran+Askr Trio apiece.") In that way, it feels like the role of "lead" has been split into different storytelling forums. Alfonse predominantly handles the main, overarching plot, while Sharena handles the day-to-day, more personal side of the storytelling. Anna handles funds. In that way, they each kind of suit their role: Sharena's main goal is to make friends with all the heroes, Anna's riches-obsessed, and Alfonse's destiny is more grandiose (the next king of Askr) so he handles the more world-ending stuff.

 

When you put that way, it makes sense. 😄

Alfonse's portrait is on the Main Story option, Sharena's on Paralogues, and Anna's is on Tactics Drills.

And yes, you're definitely right that FEH has story in a lot of places. Heck, whenever we get something new like Aether Raids, Mjolnir's Strikes, Pawns of Loki, Rokkr Sieges, and all that such, they always begin with a little story segment that gives some background to it. And, of course, Tempest Trials and Forging Bonds have little mini stories.

Kind of why, in a sense, I don't really think FEH's story is all that bad. If anything, its worldbuilding actually isn't too bad. Could be better, but it does try in places.

[Othin]

Not really a story thing, but the valkyries look like they could be using some sort of flying machines. I wonder if they'll get their own version of Canto.

Edited December 20, 2020 by Othin

[Etrurian emperor]

On 12/19/2020 at 8:02 AM, Sentinel07 said:

Annette is kind of similar. Out of all the girls in Three Houses, she's pretty much the "normal girl" for all intents and purposes, and in my experience, she gets overlooked a lot compared to her fellow Blue Lion girls as well as girls from the other houses.

Personally I always felt that Ingrid fell into that role. Sure she's one of Dimitri's childhood friend but she's also the seemingly most normal person in the Blue Lions. Well adjusted, serious and all around really normal about everything. Of the bunch I find her the easiest to overlook. 

Annette meanwhile has an entirely deserved reputation of being really adorable, a collection of wacky songs and a conflict with her dad who's kind of a big deal in the Blue Lions route. From everything I've seen Annette has a pretty decent amount of love and support online. 

Edited December 21, 2020 by Etrurian emperor

[DefyingFates]

15 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Personally I always felt that Ingrid fell into that role. Sure she's one of Dimitri's childhood friend but she's also the seemingly most normal person in the Blue Lions. Well adjusted, serious and all around really normal about everything. Of the bunch I find her the easiest to overlook. 

Annette meanwhile has an entirely deserved reputation of being really adorable, a collection of wacky songs and a conflict with her dad who's kind of a big deal in the Blue Lions route. From everything I've seen Annette has a pretty decent amount of love and support online. 

That's...actually a good point.

I think it could also be a matter of temperaments? Annette always acts like a teen while Ingrid is a bit more formal, which is fine on its own but then you factor in the baggage Ingrid carries about her dead fiance and the massacre, alongside her present-day distrust of Dedue and his people. Compared to that, well...everyone has problems with their parents at some point, right? Naturally none are as severe as Annette's with Gilbert, but the concept of a parent-child disconnect is much more universal than mourning a lover or holding a massive grudge.

At least, that's what comes to me when I think about it; maybe everyone else feels differently.

Edit: Also Ingrid wants to be a knight while her dad keeps trying to get her married off, neither of which Annette seems to struggle with.

Edited December 21, 2020 by DefyingFates

[Mercakete]

15 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Personally I always felt that Ingrid fell into that role. Sure she's one of Dimitri's childhood friend but she's also the seemingly most normal person in the Blue Lions. Well adjusted, serious and all around really normal about everything. Of the bunch I find her the easiest to overlook. 

Annette meanwhile has an entirely deserved reputation of being really adorable, a collection of wacky songs and a conflict with her dad who's kind of a big deal in the Blue Lions route. From everything I've seen Annette has a pretty decent amount of love and support online. 

I agree that Ingrid is probably the most normal in terms of being simple and realistic (I also relate to her a lot) but if we're talking about "normal" as in "commonly come across," I think that one actually goes to Hilda. At least, when I was in school, pretty much every girl acted like her. ... Yeah, there was a lot of attempts at charming their way out of doing work and being interested in what clothes/accessories looked "cute" or stylish, while also not really caring about what was going on in the world except for buzz topics that people had a generic opinion ready for. Generally friendly in a shallow sense, but more deeply, I think they were insecure in their own perspectives and so they just followed the crowd. And since they weren't confident enough to have their own perspectives, they didn't make for every reliable friends (i.e., if you became socially considered an okay target to pick on, that's pretty much the end of the social line.) Maybe that's just teenagers on the whole, though. A lot of that seems to have followed women into their adult years, but they're not as insecure, I think, and have matured some. But then they kind of turn into Manuela, so... *shrug*

But Anette is definitely an uncommon type (in reality), and falls more into the "spunky, sincere, bubbleheaded girl" archetype for characters. That said, I definitely agree with your statement, @Sentinel07, that "regular people" are undervalued, and it's a sad thing.

@Othin

Maybe. I believe that @DefyingFates made a similar speculation, and I do like that guess. It'd be an interesting interpretation of "winged ladies" that really fits the steampunk theme of the setting.

[DefyingFates]

2 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

It'd be an interesting interpretation of "winged ladies" that really fits the steampunk theme of the setting.

Agreed, it's a really neat twist to put on them! To bring up more Norse lore, it was the dwarves that crafted Odin and Thor's signature weapons among other things (pretty much every item or location of significance was built by either them or the giants), so I wouldn't be surprised if in the FEH-verse Alfador also commissioned them to equip his valkyries too (especially if the valkyries have been conflated with his ravens here).