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Book V Speculation and Discussion Thread

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5 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

I mean, did you guys expect Heroes to do anything differently? Of course they're going to invent waifus via genderbend when there aren't any in actual "canon" mythology for them to pull from.

Well, they had no problem just making them up. But for this they're deliberately taking male figures and turning them into, well, "waifus". Ala FSN. It's a wonder they kept Ótr and Fafnir male, as it is.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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Just now, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, they had no problem just making them up. But for this they're deliberately taking male figures and turning them into, well, "waifus". It's a wonder they kept Ótr and Fafnir male, as it is.

But is it really a surprise? They are currently the villains, after all 😛

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1 minute ago, Mysterique Sign said:

Ya'll remember Lif is a woman in Norse mythology, right?

Yeah, but Thrasir (or Lifthrasir) is male, so that's an "even" genderflip and doesn't actually "add" an additional female character by taking away a dude.

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9 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

But is it really a surprise? They are currently the villains, after all 😛

To be fair, FEH has more female villains than male, and they didn't genderbent Freyr, so there's really no implication they were kept male since they're antagonists.

9 minutes ago, Mysterique Sign said:

Ya'll remember Lif is a woman in Norse mythology, right?

As pointed out, (Lif)Thrasir evens it out. Regardless, that's still more MtF they've done than FtM.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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1 minute ago, Acacia Sgt said:

To be fair, FEH has more female villains than male, so there's really no implication they were kept male since they're antagonists.

True. Maybe I'm just having bad memories of book 4, where they bent over backwards to make all the antagonistic fairies sad little woobies and we were supposed to ignore that they were the antagonists.

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I'm just glad that hopefully we'll get to learn what their relation to Fafnir, if any, is. Like if they're also working under him or unrelated.

I know the book trailers are often dramatizations rather than depicting any plot points, but I do wonder if Reginn getting Nott's sword will actually be a thing.

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I wasn't going to read any of this until I cleared the chapter, but I wound up doing so on my way to say...I just saw Dagr's guns and DANG she is BUFF. ...Kind of. For some reason, they kept her neck slim (which makes no anatomical sense. Like, the muscles connecting her neck to her shoulder should be more defined with how developed her shoulders are.) Interesting theories about the other harpy being Nott, too; I would not be surprised if that theory was correct.

Kind of weird that we're getting introduced to Dagr so early. It's like all the major players are being introduced at once. Each chapter has spotlighted a new character so far. Not the best technique, imo. Save some surprises, and give a bit of development time for the information you already dropped, you know? I don't know; feels a bit fast for me. Then again, I haven't played through the latest chapter yet. My perspective may change.

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On 2/9/2021 at 1:28 AM, Mysterique Sign said:

"I don't want to lose control."

"That power... Never again."

"I am holding back."

"I am holding back" was always a weird line, but seeing it in context with those others is a real eye-opener.

On 2/9/2021 at 2:03 AM, Sentinel07 said:

Nope, not death flags. More along the lines that they go completely against the cheery Sharena-like persona we've seen of her so far and they seem to imply she's hiding something big.

Oh, now that is interesting, thank you both! Suddenly her insistence that she doesn't fight becomes much more tragic compared to the earlier implication that she was just an incredibly upbeat housewife. I wonder if we'll learn about that soon or if that's being saved for the Ragnarok book: that'd be as good a time as any to pull out the nukes - especially if Alfonse is indeed on Odin's personal hitlist as Freyja implied.

6 hours ago, Mercakete said:

Kind of weird that we're getting introduced to Dagr so early. It's like all the major players are being introduced at once. Each chapter has spotlighted a new character so far. Not the best technique, imo. Save some surprises, and give a bit of development time for the information you already dropped, you know? I don't know; feels a bit fast for me. Then again, I haven't played through the latest chapter yet. My perspective may change.

This is valid, but there seems to be more going on in this book than previous ones (i.e. this time we've got the mystery of why Fafnir went insane on top of the standard "someone's invading Askr again" plot), so I can see why they'd want to set up all the plot threads early on and tackle them as needed going forward. Besides, the Valkyries (if we can still call them that) seem to be completely separate from Fafnir's story so far, so there's that too. I'm just theorizing of course, but I suppose we'll find out tomorrow!

As for Dagr's weird musculature... IS probably isn't thinking too hard about how she and Nott look beyond just "what looks cool/ will sell well".

Still, I'm curious to see her in action mechanics-wise. If she flies this may be our first look at Canto 2. (Slightly off-topic, but I hope we start seeing Canto on more than just OC weapons. Maybe with CYL onwards?)

Edited by DefyingFates

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1 hour ago, DefyingFates said:

"I am holding back" was always a weird line, but seeing it in context with those others is a real eye-opener.

Oh, now that is interesting, thank you both! Suddenly her insistence that she doesn't fight becomes much more tragic compared to the earlier implication that she was just an incredibly upbeat housewife. I wonder if we'll learn about that soon or if that's being saved for the Ragnarok book: that'd be as good a time as any to pull out the nukes - especially if Alfonse is indeed on Odin's personal hitlist as Freyja implied.

This is valid, but there seems to be more going on in this book than previous ones (i.e. this time we've got the mystery of why Fafnir went insane on top of the standard "someone's invading Askr again" plot), so I can see why they'd want to set up all the plot threads early on and tackle them as needed going forward. Besides, the Valkyries (if we can still call them that) seem to be completely separate from Fafnir's story so far, so there's that too. I'm just theorizing of course, but I suppose we'll find out tomorrow!

As for Dagr's weird musculature... IS probably isn't thinking too hard about how she and Nott look beyond just "what looks cool/ will sell well".

Still, I'm curious to see her in action mechanics-wise. If she flies this may be our first look at Canto 2. (Slightly off-topic, but I hope we start seeing Canto on more than just OC weapons. Maybe with CYL onwards?)

I think it really depends on the long-term plans, like if Nidavellir is where we'll even be spending the whole book or if the 2nd half will send us to Dagr's realm as seen at the end of the Book 5 trailer.

Granted, they've been a little weird with things so far in Book 5. Like, we already knew Reginn would join us somehow, but the build-up to her joining is....almost non-existent. She only appeared at the beginning and end of Chapter 1, and all of her discontent with invading realms was crammed into the ending.

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9 hours ago, Sentinel07 said:

Granted, they've been a little weird with things so far in Book 5. Like, we already knew Reginn would join us somehow, but the build-up to her joining is....almost non-existent. She only appeared at the beginning and end of Chapter 1, and all of her discontent with invading realms was crammed into the ending.

So you're suggesting they're frontloading the Nidavellir stuff so they can focus on Dagr and Nott later on? That'd be a nice twist, actually.

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13 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

This is valid, but there seems to be more going on in this book than previous ones (i.e. this time we've got the mystery of why Fafnir went insane on top of the standard "someone's invading Askr again" plot), so I can see why they'd want to set up all the plot threads early on and tackle them as needed going forward. Besides, the Valkyries (if we can still call them that) seem to be completely separate from Fafnir's story so far, so there's that too. I'm just theorizing of course, but I suppose we'll find out tomorrow!

As for Dagr's weird musculature... IS probably isn't thinking too hard about how she and Nott look beyond just "what looks cool/ will sell well".

There's good and bad writing technique. If you overwhelm your reader with too many things to focus on without letting the reader digest what they already have, it's poor technique. That's all I was saying. The order of the introductions, and even introducing like things, isn't as important, and is up to writing style and the needs of the plot as it progresses. I would have focused this chapter on learning about Eitri and her relevance to the plot so far. Inevitably, she'd hand us our next plot objective, which would be the next chapter. Then I would have introduced the next plot element in Dagr and Nott, perhaps at the very end of that chapter, or in the next one. Give your reader time to digest what was already given. Otherwise, it's like eating a gourmet dish on a ten-second time limit with no time to enjoy taste, texture, or aroma, and just turns into an unpleasant experience. Since so little development can happen with the limited space IS has in which to tell the story in FEH, it's important to be careful on this point. You don't have paragraphs and paragraphs through which the reader can naturally digest the information, and characters and plot points can be explored. So, you need a deft hand, balancing carefully when you're giving too little or too much.

Also, to be clear, I'm not contrasting this book with previous ones. I'm speaking to universally good and bad writing techniques.

As for Dagr's art, it could be that they kind of had to keep her bust (that is, shoulders and head) as it is because it was shown in the promo art, and couldn't convert it if how buff she is developed later in the design process. It could also just be that they don't like not giving females skinny necks no matter what. Those are my two strongest theories.

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Huh, so it looks like Jotunheimr is being taken care of this Book. I'm guessing they're pulling another Freyr/Freyja situation by giving Dagr/Nott an association, but I'm surprised that they're using the realm here when there's so many characters they could pull out for future stories.

Edit: Also, the sword Gramr is a callback to the exact same sword used to kill Fafnir in Norse Mythology.

Edited by Medeus

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Well, I'm just hoping the book will be able to stay on focus from its original premise. It'd be really easy to get lost in Jotenheimr and forget about what kicked this off to begin with.

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Well, my summary (Get to know Eitri, learn stuff about the world, get sent on to the next plot point by her) was basically right, though hyper-compressed. And, just as I thought, delivery was a factor. (This is why I shouldn't look at anything story-related in banner previews.) Writing is going well; my concerns about pacing were unfounded. Plus, we got some good explanation on the history behind the events.

So, while the mirror may be evil (perhaps corrupting the crown) the crown certainly gives power. (Bruno, get over here; this sounds vaguely related to your family's corruption problems.) Also, the valkyries are, in fact, not valkyries, but giants. Indeed, this world combines the dwarves and the giants, and I think it does so in a neat way (not really from a design point of view -- the dwarves are drawn to advancements in tech and are a bit short, but that's it, and the giants are kind of tall and super muscle-y, but that's it) having their histories intertwined like that. Interesting cultural nuances here, too, and parallels/contrasting points between the dwarves and the giants, without making it a 1:1 opposites deal. And I guess those birds are pets or something rather than machines? Perhaps these giants have a bond with animals since they prefer tradition to tech? Interesting how there tends to be parallel people groups in each book. (Askr vs Embla, Nifl vs Muspell, Hel vs...everyone (okay, this is an exception; "the living vs the dead" is too much of a stretch to get it to fit, I think), dreams vs nightmares, and dwarves vs giants.)

Anyway, Eitri's pretty cool. I like her. I was worried that she was going to be a snooty spoiled brat type, but she's really focused on the practical, which I appreciate. I also like Dagr. She's funny. (Though I am kind of annoyed that there's yet ANOTHER bunch of princesses. I think the only princes we've gotten native to Heroes are Alfonse, Bruno, and Hrid. Out of all the worlds, that only reps 3 countries. Yeesh.) Totally summoning her when she becomes available. I feel bad for Alfonse, though. Also, I wonder what Nott's like. I hope I like her, but I'll withhold judgement until I meet her. (Too many times have I thought "she looks cool!" to characters and then wound up REALLY not liking them when they started talking.)

Who wants to bet that Reginn and Otr (or at least Reginn) are actually blood related to the previous royal line? (And that Eitri either saw them when they were little, or knew their mom and Reginn reminds her of said mom or something.) I think that having both of them be so would be interesting, since that would mean that Otr would be just as capable of utilizing our special weapon as Reginn is, so there could be a turnabout with that sword's usefulness. Also, I wonder if we'll get special sword Reginn as an alt, or as a new weapon skill for the Reginn we already have. (Or if we'll have to duct tape it to the summon gun so that the summon gun can be the mcGuffin again.) Really, though, the sword might not be like the Falchion as the instrument of the big bad's demise. This could be a setup to make us think that, but it breaks or Otr gets it or something else happens to it...and then (in whichever order) Yellow Kiran is revealed as the real big bad and the summon gun is revealed to be the thing that we need to use to get rid of the real big bad. ... I'm serious.

Edit: Also, indeed, when in the right hands Grammar is a potent weapon. 😛

Edited by Mercakete

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3 hours ago, Sentinel07 said:

Well, that was quite the sudden shift. We got a new realm and we're already heading there.

I don't think it's a new realm, it looks like it's a different country within the same realm? At least, in Heroes' take on it.

But yeah, wasn't expecting giants here.

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Dagr is quite amazing. She's like if Catherine's jock traits were expanded to the point where she became more of a joke character. Her dynamic with Alfonse seems promising with her behavior driving him up the wall. 

''I lost!? You guys are too strong! No fair! booooo!'' 

Edited by Etrurian emperor

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I really liked Dagr in this chapter. She's very different than I expected and I mean that in the best way possible. I wonder if we'll see Nótt next chapter? And I also wonder if we will see their mother Dagr mentioned. I would guess their mother is called Jörð, just by looking at Norse Mythology.

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Etrurian Emperor last chapter:
 

Quote

Can't they maybe shake up the formula a bit? I know the odds must be against Alfonse and co, but throughout practically all the books they are constantly on the retreat while searching for the mighty MacGuffin. They couldn't beat Surtr and needed to find the Mighty McGuffin, they couldn't beat Hell and needed to find the mighty McGuffin, they couldn't defeat Freyja so they had to kill the mighty MacGuffin and now they can't defeat Fafnir. Maybe they need to search for the mighty MacGuffin!!!

Regis this chapter:
''We can't beat Fafnir! We need the mighty MacGuffin!''

So we're still hunting for mighty MacGuffin's I see. They really are just replicating the formula of books 2 and 3. I guess Fafnir having a mighty MacGuffin of his own spices things up a little bit. Still maybe they should stop with the treasure hunts in the next book. Its starting to get repetitive. 

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Dagr seems like she could be either fun or annoying, and I haven't decided which yet.

I'm curious whether the NH banner unit will be her or Eitri. Of course maybe they'll increase the number of those banners, that'd be neat and help them further support some of the games that are running out of good premium candidates by letting them push one to a demote slot. Or maybe they'll go a different direction entirely.

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3 minutes ago, Othin said:

Dagr seems like she could be either fun or annoying, and I haven't decided which yet.

I'm curious whether the NH banner unit will be her or Eitri. Of course maybe they'll increase the number of those banners, that'd be neat and help them further support some of the games that are running out of good premium candidates by letting them push one to a demote slot. Or maybe they'll go a different direction entirely.

From a gameplay point of view, it makes more sense to introduce Eitri next, since she's an inventor first and a fighter second, so she could be a "normal" unit. (That said, we did get Mirabilis (who I think is a mythic) on a regular banner so...hm.) From a story point of view, now that you mention it, it makes a lot more sense for Dagr to join us soon. Once we have Grammar (I know the name's Gramr but the other spelling tickles my humor), we'll probably leave the giants behind, and Dagr is clearly eager to prove her strength and is impetuous enough to hop onto the team without giving it much thought. Eitri has more plot-related story in store for her and tends to prefer staying in one place where she can work. The more I think about it, the more it seems like we'll be getting Dagr on that new heroes banner, or in some other way. 2nd freebie, maybe? Anyway, I'd be down for that.

I also understand where you're coming from on her possibly being annoying. I lean more towards "she's funny" for now, but we'll see how my opinion ages as the story progresses.

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