What are the best units to train in The Binding Blade?

[Benice]

18 minutes ago, sinfonic18 said:

My Melady is probably my best unit and is near unstoppable. She's already capped out her Str, Skill, Spd and HP at level 9 Wyvern Lord and her growths are still going good. I definitely got lucky with her

Oh, if you think she's good on normal...Ohohoho...OHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHHHHHHHHHHHHHH...

19 minutes ago, sinfonic18 said:

I forgot about this guy. He seems to hit a lot better but not as hard. I didn't use him, but perhaps I will consider him next time. 

He's not great. He's not terrible either, at least in NM.

Also, if you choose to do HM-Do NOT try to do it without Marcus. It's nearly impossible without him in the earlygame.

[joevar]

46 minutes ago, sinfonic18 said:

I forgot about this guy. He seems to hit a lot better but not as hard. I didn't use him, but perhaps I will consider him next time. 

geese is okay i guess? the biggest problem is obviously his lvl too low for joining late (but theres sophia who is the defacto worst)

46 minutes ago, sinfonic18 said:

It was either him or the chest. RIP, guess I'm not getting beyond the 22nd chapter this playthrough.

yep, he blocked my way to the chest too. despite 3 people convincing him to stand down. for next playthru, i would suggest saving the sleep staff to use on him

46 minutes ago, sinfonic18 said:

My Melady is probably my best unit and is near unstoppable. She's already capped out her Str, Skill, Spd and HP at level 9 Wyvern Lord and her growths are still going good. I definitely got lucky with her

Melady is and will be the best unit no matter who , or what mode you play. she is SS tier if theres one (if you happen to steal delphi shield and give it to her, and give her killer lance, nothing can stop her except the most gifted mage)

Edited December 2, 2020 by joevar

[sinfonic18]

On 12/2/2020 at 12:46 AM, Benice said:

Oh, if you think she's good on normal...Ohohoho...OHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHHHHHHHHHHHHHH...

He's not great. He's not terrible either, at least in NM.

Also, if you choose to do HM-Do NOT try to do it without Marcus. It's nearly impossible without him in the earlygame.

I read she gets HM bonuses so I can't imagine how many of her stats would be capped if I was playing on Hard, makes me excited to play that difficulty!

Ah, I figured. While I've said numerous times I don't like using prepromoted units, Binding Blade is an exception because it's a lot more difficult than the FEs I've played, and I could barely get passed early game maps in NM, I'll most definitely need him and more in HM.

On 12/2/2020 at 1:07 AM, joevar said:

geese is okay i guess? the biggest problem is obviously his lvl too low for joining late (but theres sophia who is the defacto worst)

yep, he blocked my way to the chest too. despite 3 people convincing him to stand down. for next playthru, i would suggest saving the sleep staff to use on him

Melady is and will be the best unit no matter who , or what mode you play. she is SS tier if theres one (if you happen to steal delphi shield and give it to her, and give her killer lance, nothing can stop her except the most gifted mage)

I think it's pretty stupid that Sophia is so underleveled and really has no incentive to use her over Raigh and Niime since she's kind of an important character in the story. (kind of) 

Yup, trying not to kill him was an impossible challenge in my predicament. It's kind of funny that I'm not the only person who ran into that problem, lol. My thieves dodged all his attacks, but they couldn't damage him at all to make him move in the slighest, and they were permanently stuck in the eastern side of the room since he was blocking me in the chest room. I tried using all my sleep staves but I only had 2 and it took longer for me to open the chest than he stayed asleep, rip. 

I agree. Her and Rutger are my best units and no one comes close to them. (I didn't get the delphi shield since I couldn't find it anywhere. 😕 ) 

But now that I've beaten CH. 22 today it's time to rectify all these failures of my first playthrough and do a complete one on Hard. It'll be fun, but we'll see how it goes. Thanks to everyone for all the pointers!

[ping]

33 minutes ago, sinfonic18 said:

(I didn't get the delphi shield since I couldn't find it anywhere. 😕 ) 

You can steal it from Narcian. There's no Speed restrictions on stealing in FE6, so you'll always be able to do so.

Good luck with the HM run! It's quite a tough one, probably around the same difficulty level as Hector Hard Mode, maybe a little bit tougher. You'll probably notice why Marcus is considered to be one of the most Jeiganest Jeigans in the series.

[joevar]

 

2 hours ago, sinfonic18 said:

But now that I've beaten CH. 22 today it's time to rectify all these failures of my first playthrough and do a complete one on Hard. It'll be fun, but we'll see how it goes. Thanks to everyone for all the pointers!

sweet

go all out on the guides! all secret items, shops, recruitment, support convo , etc.
dont leave any stone unturned

delphi shield from Narcian (steal, not drop), boss of the chapter where douglas keep cockbloking you from chest room

Edited December 3, 2020 by joevar

[Benice]

8 hours ago, sinfonic18 said:

I read she gets HM bonuses so I can't imagine how many of her stats would be capped if I was playing on Hard, makes me excited to play that difficulty!

She'll EASILY cap all offensive stats save luck, which is good enough. She won't cap def, (due tot he massive cap of 29, but she'll still have a respectable 23-24) or res. And her bases are insane. Also, Zeiss is quite good as well-He joins with 19 strength at level 7.

8 hours ago, sinfonic18 said:

Yup, trying not to kill him was an impossible challenge in my predicament. It's kind of funny that I'm not the only person who ran into that problem, lol.

Advice for HM: He won't attack your dancer, (So, Lalum or Elphin) and it is worth using a sleep staff charge on him once he's close. Dodgy units, (Fir with an iron sword, for example) can also delay him for quite some time. He can also come in handy in Sacae, kind of.

8 hours ago, sinfonic18 said:

I agree. Her and Rutger are my best units and no one comes close to them. (I didn't get the delphi shield since I couldn't find it anywhere. 😕 ) 

They're even better on HM, rivaled only by Perceval in terms of power. I'd still argue that Marcus is better than Milady and Perceval, though. And Shin in crazy good on HM, so make sure to nab him. Going to Sacae MIGHT not be a good idea, so using Shanna and Thea may be wise.

 

Anyways, good luck with HM! It's a big step up from normal, so be ready for that! Hope you enjoy!

[Shadow Mir]

On 11/30/2020 at 10:12 PM, Fates-Blade said:

It depends on how hard you want the game to be, I'll give the units to make the game easy:

Dieck: his con and access to Hand Axes as a Hero is unbeatable, possibly the best wielder of Durandal because of his high con.

Oujay: his access to Hand Axes as a Hero, better growths than Echidna, and being a ground unit (no Horseslayer effectiveness) make him a winner IMO.

Rutger and Fir can't attack 1-2 or use axes like Oujay can.

Rutger and Fir: they're really good but not as good as Dieck and Oujay because of their lower HP, Str, Def, and luck IMO. Rutger has low luck, Fir has low Str, Def, and Con, but high Crit as a Swordmaster which means little IMO.

Lance: people have already mentioned he's good.

Alen: people have already mentioned he's good.

Melady and Zeiss: possibly the best fliers in the game.

Gonzales: best axe user IMO with solid growths and base stats.

Yoder: uses magic and so OP FE6 tomes, has good stats and already S at Staves the best Light magic user IMO, basically the only one who can get to S rank in light, and so use Aureola, quickly and can use Divine and Purge from the start, (since in FE6 a character can have two S ranks, he can be S at Light and Staves.)

If you want to use Yoder save some stat boosting items since he can't level up.

Niime: A really good druid with great base stats and, again, OP FE6 tomes, nuff said.

Lugh: A mage and so OP FE6 tomes, nuff said.

Raigh: A mage and so OP FE6 tomes, nuff said.

Lillina: A mage and so OP FE6 tomes, nuff said.

Sue and Shin: Some of the best bow users IMO because of joining early, good growths which Igrene doesn't have, good bases, access to swords upon promotion, and good movement.

Perceval: One of the best paladins, useful mid and late game

Saul and/or Clarine: best healers IMO swap them to heal for the whole game or just use one if you like. Just don't use Elen, unfortunately her growths and bases are horrible.

Generally IMO the pegasus knights because of low con, fighters because of low axe hit in FE6, and knights because low movement, spd, skl, and res are useless. The only use Archers have is for fliers, specifically Wyvern Riders/Lords but since Sue and Shin get swords upon promotion and have higher movement and con the Archer/Sniper class.

You can give EXP to the bad classes I've mentioned if you want to, but they just don't contribute much when you have mages (that have OP FE6 tomes) and Nomads (access to swords.)

This is not even counting the supports which can make these characters even better.

There might be more but this is all I can think of for now.
 

|THE END|

I disagree on the ones I italicized - Oujay is outclassed by the other 3 sword units, Zeiss comes late and underleveled to the point recommending him is a hard sell (I would also argue he's the worst flier that isn't Juno), Gonzales has godawful hit rates and is axe-locked, and Lilina only has good magic and luck.

Edited December 3, 2020 by Shadow Mir

[Benice]

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Zeiss comes late and underleveled to the point recommending him is a hard sell

I agree that he's not great, but 19 base strength means that raising him isn't hard at all and he will end up being quite good. On Normal, he's much more mediocre, but his good growths and already decent-ish bases still make him worth using to some extent. He's not fabulous, but he's certainly not bad.

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I would also argue he's the worst flier that isn't Juno

I'd say that both on HM and NM, he's significantly better than Thea. Plus, since you can have Three Elysian whips, he's the best candidate for the third one if you want to use it.

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Lilina only has good magic and luck.

I also think that she's overrated, but she is the only mage in the game who'll be able to OHKO wyverns consistently with Aircalibur, which is something to justify using her. Taking ch. 21 as an example, you'll need ~25 magic to OHKO most of the unpromoted enemy wyverns and it's impossible to OHKO promoted ones. Speaking of OHKO, she will probably need an Angelic robe to not get OHKO'd unless she's 20/16 or higher leveled, something that neither Hugh or Lugh will need, depending on their level.

Spoiler

Dragon Riders: 1239472130984712093470923740923874 (actually just 20)

2 L10 w/ Steel Lance

26-27 Atk, 81-82 Hit, 6 Crit----39¬-40 Hp, 14 Def, 2 Res, 21-25 Avo, 8-9 AS, 5-7 CEV

18 L20, 10 w/ Steel Lance + Javelin (-4 Atk, +2 AS, +4 Avo), 5 w/ Killer Lance (+20 Hit, +30 Crit, +3 AS, +6 Avo) & Vulnerary, 3 w/ Steel Lance

30 Atk, 84-91 Hit, 6-8 Crit----44-49 (50) Hp, 15-17 Def, 3-5 Res, 29-35 (36, 37) Avo, 11-13 (14) AS, 7-9 (10) CEV

 

5 L10 Dragon Lords w/ Silver Lance

39-40 Atk, 100-107 Hit, 8-9 Crit----55-58 Hp, 17-19 Def, 3-5 Res, 35-41 Avo, 14-16 AS, 7-9 CEV

Neither Hugh nor Lugh will hit those benchmarks, and even at 20/20, Lugh will barely hit 25 magic with an energy ring. Hugh will be much closer but still needs an energy ring at 20/20 to hit it. Lilina hits 25 magic at 20/5.

With Forblaze, all of them should deal with the wyverns fairly handily. However, Aircalibur is much more readily available and you'll probably need more than the 20 uses of Forblaze for this chapter.

[sinfonic18]

15 hours ago, ping said:

You can steal it from Narcian. There's no Speed restrictions on stealing in FE6, so you'll always be able to do so.

Good luck with the HM run! It's quite a tough one, probably around the same difficulty level as Hector Hard Mode, maybe a little bit tougher. You'll probably notice why Marcus is considered to be one of the most Jeiganest Jeigans in the series.

7 hours ago, Benice said:

She'll EASILY cap all offensive stats save luck, which is good enough. She won't cap def, (due tot he massive cap of 29, but she'll still have a respectable 23-24) or res. And her bases are insane. Also, Zeiss is quite good as well-He joins with 19 strength at level 7.

Advice for HM: He won't attack your dancer, (So, Lalum or Elphin) and it is worth using a sleep staff charge on him once he's close. Dodgy units, (Fir with an iron sword, for example) can also delay him for quite some time. He can also come in handy in Sacae, kind of.

They're even better on HM, rivaled only by Perceval in terms of power. I'd still argue that Marcus is better than Milady and Perceval, though. And Shin in crazy good on HM, so make sure to nab him. Going to Sacae MIGHT not be a good idea, so using Shanna and Thea may be wise.

 

Anyways, good luck with HM! It's a big step up from normal, so be ready for that! Hope you enjoy!

Ah, that's where it was! I didn't even think to steal from him. Only thing I thought when I saw him is "lol wyrmslayer go brrrrrrrr". I'll give him so mercy though this time for that shield he carries. 

Eh, I wouldn't imagine her not capping defensive stats would be a problem especially with her really high dodge chances. Couple that with the delphi shield and she'll be totally fine even without it I'd think.

Thanks for that. I didn't know he wouldn't attack my dancer. I didn't even deploy Elphin for that chapter.

Now I have just TWO more questions for you two and then I'll leave you alone. xD 

Is Marcus a good enough unit to be viable the whole game or? I'll be honest I'm not a big fan of dropping characters after a certain point or so, and AnonymousSpeed stated that he's meant to be dropped after like chapter 8 or so. I know perhaps he'll be outclassed by Percival once you recruit him, but I wouldn't mind having like, 4 Paladins if Marcus' growths are good and whatnot. 

Aaaand....

What is the better route to take? I went to Ilia this time but how do you get to Sacae? I've read it has something to do with Sue and Sin getting more EXP or something than Shanna and Thea, but I really don't understand since I would like to use Shanna again and it seems like the only way to accomplish that would be benching her. Perhaps I'm thinking too into it.

13 hours ago, joevar said:

 

sweet

go all out on the guides! all secret items, shops, recruitment, support convo , etc.
dont leave any stone unturned

delphi shield from Narcian (steal, not drop), boss of the chapter where douglas keep cockbloking you from chest room

Yes, thanks! I'm definitely not worried about spoiling myself this time and am going to go in depth with every map to get everything. Even if it means restarting which I don't like to do much. 

 

Edited December 3, 2020 by sinfonic18

[Benice]

2 minutes ago, sinfonic18 said:

'll give him so mercy though this time for that shield he carries. 

Try and snag his blue gem as well-IIRC he has one of those too.

2 minutes ago, sinfonic18 said:

Eh, I wouldn't imagine her not capping defensive stats would be a problem especially with her really high dodge chances. Couple that with the delphi shield and she'll be totally fine even without it I'd think.

Yeah, she'll still be your best/second best unit.

This is about standard for Milady on HM. She can certainly still die if you try and enemy-phase everything with her, though. And not just by mages. I got that Milady killed by a wyvern.

This is also a fairly standard Shin on HM. I got him killed too.

7 minutes ago, sinfonic18 said:

Is Marcus a good enough unit to be viable the whole game or?

Nope. He'll most likely fall off around ch. 9, but he can still last the western isles if he gets speed once or twice. I think in an older version of the patch, they didn't even bother to translate Marcus' full ending because nobody would actually bring him to endgame. That's how bad his growths are. That said, I read an LP where the player's Marcus was super blessed and was still viable at the end of the game, but that run was astoundingly weird.

 

9 minutes ago, sinfonic18 said:

What is the better route to take?

Ilia. Ilia. Ilia. Ilia.

Sacae is...OOF. Some of the maps are really bad there. There's one in particular that I recall being really bad, and it's just overall REALLY punishing. Sure, there is some merit to going there, but it is much tougher.

10 minutes ago, sinfonic18 said:

I've read it has something to do with Sue and Sin getting more EXP or something than Shanna and Thea, but I really don't understand since I would like to use Shanna again and it seems like the only way to accomplish that would be benching her.

Yeah, that is correct. You can also do both routes at once by levelling Shanna and Shin at the same pace, (Or Sue/Thea, but they're not very good...) then giving one a few more points in 16/16x.

Other advice for HM:

• Earlypromoting Rutger or Deke is a good idea, and many like getting Alan or Lance to level 10 and promoting them in ch. 7, but Noah could also work to that end if need be. Early promotion in general can be a good idea if you need more power ASAP, as FE6 boosts are quite large.
• If you are using Shanna, make sure to promote her at chapter 8/8x, even if she is only level 10. She won't be endgame viable this way, (Granted, I don't know if she would be even at 20/20) but she'll be really, really good in the western isles due to sword access and high speeds. What I did in my first practice run of HM was to get her as highly leveled as possible for the western isles, 'cause she's a great crutch there. (I actually managed to get her to use the Silver Lance by chapter 7, which was quite the boon for taking out the wyverns.)
• It is much, much harder than Normal. Be prepared for that. Different units are better or worse in this mode. Take Garret, for example. He's actually quite good in HM. Fir is also better, funnily enough.
• Not hard mode exclusive, but if you don't plan to use Hugh, (who is okay as a unit and is sturdier than Lugh or Lilina) you can pay him as little has 5,000 gold by refusing his offers until then. (This lowers all of his base stats a LOT, though.) If you decline 5k, he'll get angry and become unrecruitable.

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, Benice said:

I agree that he's not great, but 19 base strength means that raising him isn't hard at all and he will end up being quite good. On Normal, he's much more mediocre, but his good growths and already decent-ish bases still make him worth using to some extent. He's not fabulous, but he's certainly not bad.

Personally, at that point, my team is mostly, if not entirely set. At that point, I'd be hard-pressed to justify benching someone in favour of a level 7 wyvern rider with poor weapon ranks, especially when he's screwed no matter which route you go to.

5 hours ago, Benice said:

I'd say that both on HM and NM, he's significantly better than Thea. Plus, since you can have Three Elysian whips, he's the best candidate for the third one if you want to use it.

I dunno - like I said, trying to make room for Zeiss would only be shooting myself in the foot, as no matter who Zeiss replaces, my team would be worse off with him than without him.

5 hours ago, Benice said:

I also think that she's overrated, but she is the only mage in the game who'll be able to OHKO wyverns consistently with Aircalibur, which is something to justify using her. Taking ch. 21 as an example, you'll need ~25 magic to OHKO most of the unpromoted enemy wyverns and it's impossible to OHKO promoted ones. Speaking of OHKO, she will probably need an Angelic robe to not get OHKO'd unless she's 20/16 or higher leveled, something that neither Hugh or Lugh will need, depending on their level.

  Reveal hidden contents

Dragon Riders: 1239472130984712093470923740923874 (actually just 20)

2 L10 w/ Steel Lance

26-27 Atk, 81-82 Hit, 6 Crit----39¬-40 Hp, 14 Def, 2 Res, 21-25 Avo, 8-9 AS, 5-7 CEV

18 L20, 10 w/ Steel Lance + Javelin (-4 Atk, +2 AS, +4 Avo), 5 w/ Killer Lance (+20 Hit, +30 Crit, +3 AS, +6 Avo) & Vulnerary, 3 w/ Steel Lance

30 Atk, 84-91 Hit, 6-8 Crit----44-49 (50) Hp, 15-17 Def, 3-5 Res, 29-35 (36, 37) Avo, 11-13 (14) AS, 7-9 (10) CEV

 

5 L10 Dragon Lords w/ Silver Lance

39-40 Atk, 100-107 Hit, 8-9 Crit----55-58 Hp, 17-19 Def, 3-5 Res, 35-41 Avo, 14-16 AS, 7-9 CEV

Neither Hugh nor Lugh will hit those benchmarks, and even at 20/20, Lugh will barely hit 25 magic with an energy ring. Hugh will be much closer but still needs an energy ring at 20/20 to hit it. Lilina hits 25 magic at 20/5.

With Forblaze, all of them should deal with the wyverns fairly handily. However, Aircalibur is much more readily available and you'll probably need more than the 20 uses of Forblaze for this chapter.

Fair enough.

[Benice]

5 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Personally, at that point, my team is mostly, if not entirely set. At that point, I'd be hard-pressed to justify benching someone in favour of a level 7 wyvern rider with poor weapon ranks, especially when he's screwed no matter which route you go to.

The weapon ranks do hurt, yes. Still, 19 strength does work if you need someone to fill in; he'd also work well as a replacement for Shanna, since she'll most likely have fallen off by this point.

7 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

as no matter who Zeiss replaces, my team would be worse off with him than without him.

Thing is, 16x aside, the next chapters have

• 14 deployment slots (ch. 17)
• 15 deployment slots (ch. 18)

After that it does get a little more rough for him, with 19 and 20 both having 13 deployment slots, (at least one of which will be a thief) and 20x having eight. He does only really need those three level to get him to ten before he promotes due to his huge strength, which also makes getting him those three levels isn't hard. He's not superb, but he isn't bad at all; he'll cap strength really quickly and has very good physical bulk that will grow reasonably well between his eh defense growth and high HP growth. Plus, promotion gets him to C lances as well as access to swords for more accuracy, and even though being locked to iron sucks a lot, his colossal strength, (22 at 10/1) makes up for it. He's a bit of investment for pretty good reward and is in one of the best classes in the game.

[joevar]

7 hours ago, sinfonic18 said:

What is the better route to take? I went to Ilia this time but how do you get to Sacae? I've read it has something to do with Sue and Sin getting more EXP or something than Shanna and Thea, but I really don't understand since I would like to use Shanna again and it seems like the only way to accomplish that would be benching her. Perhaps I'm thinking too into it.

ILIA, period

the split route is: Thea lvl + shanna lvl greater than Sue + shin, for Ilia route. you can use all, but still go to ilia if the sum of thea and shanna is greater. that simple

shanna may have slight edge in speed when you recruit thea, but she has big boost to her base stat in HM over shanna

as long as you dont give her steel lance, she can even survive being in frontline by dodging, even more so if she has support with klein. just pretend you dont see +2 in her con

9 hours ago, Benice said:

I agree that he's not great, but 19 base strength means that raising him isn't hard at all and he will end up being quite good. On Normal, he's much more mediocre, but his good growths and already decent-ish bases still make him worth using to some extent. He's not fabulous, but he's certainly not bad.

rather than arguing whether zeiss decent or bad in terms of power, more like we dont have any free slot to insert him for sortie, other than benching already-trained unit. imo it fall down to whether you like his character or not to the point you willing to spend any more time training unit halfway in the game (i do still train unit at that point, but somehow forgot to train zeiss)

-------

if only theres 2-3 more chapters to use Roy (guess what items/stat booster i use on Roy)

i dont remember in other FE, but Luck actually seems helps you more in FE6, i might be wrong tho.

Edited December 4, 2020 by joevar

[Shadow Mir]

4 hours ago, Benice said:

The weapon ranks do hurt, yes. Still, 19 strength does work if you need someone to fill in; he'd also work well as a replacement for Shanna, since she'll most likely have fallen off by this point.

Thing is, 16x aside, the next chapters have

• 14 deployment slots (ch. 17)
• 15 deployment slots (ch. 18)

After that it does get a little more rough for him, with 19 and 20 both having 13 deployment slots, (at least one of which will be a thief) and 20x having eight. He does only really need those three level to get him to ten before he promotes due to his huge strength, which also makes getting him those three levels isn't hard. He's not superb, but he isn't bad at all; he'll cap strength really quickly and has very good physical bulk that will grow reasonably well between his eh defense growth and high HP growth. Plus, promotion gets him to C lances as well as access to swords for more accuracy, and even though being locked to iron sucks a lot, his colossal strength, (22 at 10/1) makes up for it. He's a bit of investment for pretty good reward and is in one of the best classes in the game.

They also have nomads that will shoot him down with ease (Sacae) or ballistae (Ilia). Status staves and long-range magic are becoming more common at this point, too. In the face of all this, Zeiss comes a month late and ten thousand dollars short, thus I don't find it worth it to bench an already trained unit for his sake.

Edited December 4, 2020 by Shadow Mir

[ping]

9 hours ago, sinfonic18 said:

Is Marcus a good enough unit to be viable the whole game or? I'll be honest I'm not a big fan of dropping characters after a certain point or so, and AnonymousSpeed stated that he's meant to be dropped after like chapter 8 or so. I know perhaps he'll be outclassed by Percival once you recruit him, but I wouldn't mind having like, 4 Paladins if Marcus' growths are good and whatnot. 

Maybe it helps if you see (most of) your prepromotes as tools to make it easier to train your long-term units. Marcus in particular is very good at setting up kills in the first couple chapters - with an Iron Sword, he barely misses the one-round-kill on literally every generic enemy in chapter 1, so he can weaken a couple of enemies on enemy phase that Allen, Lance, and/or Roy can then finish off for the full 30 XP. Marcus (and, to a lesser degree because you have more options when they join, other prepromotes such as Jerrot, Cecilia, or Klain) is incredibly useful that way without taking away very much kill XP at all. I overwrote my last finished FE6 file so I can't check, but I believe I have Marcus at around 100 fights and only ~10 kills in an average playthrough.

Most of the time in the early- to midgame, you have more unit slots than you have units that you realistically want to keep long-term, so you might as well fill those additional slots with Marcus and Jerrot instead of Wolt and Wendy. Most prepromotes seem to be intended to be used that way - temporary filler units to support your long-term growth prospects, since they will usually fall behind those prospects a handful of chapters after they joined.

Since you're mentioning Perceval: On HM, you should only recruit him in chapter 15, even though he already appears in ch.13. He doesn't get his HM bonus stats in ch.13 because FE6 mechanics are a bit janky at times, and it's a lot easier to recruit him in ch.15 anyways.

[joevar]

22 minutes ago, ping said:

Since you're mentioning Perceval: On HM, you should only recruit him in chapter 15, even though he already appears in ch.13. He doesn't get his HM bonus stats in ch.13 because FE6 mechanics are a bit janky at times, and it's a lot easier to recruit him in ch.15 anyways.

bruh, no one told me this, and i suffer from this. makes me wondering why perceval seems only average in my playthru

but its a good / nice exercise of strategy btw to recruit him in ch.13 without anyone dying from misfire. i guess i can be proud of that at least

 

Edited December 4, 2020 by joevar

[Benice]

8 hours ago, joevar said:

shanna may have slight edge in speed when you recruit thea, but she has big boost to her base stat in HM over shanna

The thing is that Shanna is your only flier until Thea. Plus, a level 8 Shanna is still almost en par with Thea on HM. Shanna also should have promoted by this point,  so she should be far and away better than Thea, and Shanna's probably falling off by this point. It's a lot harder to get Thea off the ground than it is to get Zeiss. She also only starts with a D in lances, and unlike Zeiss, she doesn't have the base strength to make up for it and deal significant damage with an iron or steel lance. (Which Thea really shouldn't be using either way.)

8 hours ago, joevar said:

you willing to spend any more time training unit halfway in the game

Yeah, I think that's fair. I think that he's worth using, but is still someone you have to raise. It is just personal preference.

8 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

They also have nomads that will shoot him down with ease (Sacae) or ballistae (Ilia). Status staves and long-range magic are becoming more common at this point, too. In the face of all this, Zeiss comes a month late and ten thousand dollars short, thus I don't find it worth it to bench an already trained unit for his sake.

Well, the Delphi shield is tradeable, plus his defence is good enough to both deal somewhat competently with Short bows and Ballistae, especially after promotion. It's not a Zeiss-exclusive problem, and it's even one he deals with better than the other fliers, Milady exempt for obvious reasons.

[joevar]

48 minutes ago, Benice said:

The thing is that Shanna is your only flier until Thea. Plus, a level 8 Shanna is still almost en par with Thea on HM. Shanna also should have promoted by this point,  so she should be far and away better than Thea, and Shanna's probably falling off by this point. It's a lot harder to get Thea off the ground than it is to get Zeiss. She also only starts with a D in lances, and unlike Zeiss, she doesn't have the base strength to make up for it and deal significant damage with an iron or steel lance. (Which Thea really shouldn't be using either way.)

i think you quote the wrong person??  im showing thea not to dimiss zeiss ...  but to show @sinfonic18 that its worth it to train her and not only for the purpose of going to ilia. equally good if i might say, you're choosing defense vs. speed. either you prefers on bulkiness or dodginess. *obviously why i give con booster to thea

but you say its harder to get thea of the ground? she appear with the same map that has arena & shops (lalum route, cant remember about Elphin route), so no sortie limit that she sacrifices while supplying the healer if need be. also i believe you can recruit her before the turns for reinforcement, so you can feed her a bit in the same chapter. while arena appear again two chapter after zeiss (counting the gaiden) and no shop to buy healing staves at that chapter to abuse (if you forgot to bring many spare like me, that is) and to get to him usually you already kill all enemy and most of the later spawn (also theres douglas there..., self explanatory)

Edited December 4, 2020 by joevar

[Fates-Blade]

On 12/3/2020 at 1:09 PM, Shadow Mir said:

I disagree on the ones I italicized - Oujay is outclassed by the other 3 sword units, Zeiss comes late and underleveled to the point recommending him is a hard sell (I would also argue he's the worst flier that isn't Juno), Gonzales has godawful hit rates and is axe-locked, and Lilina only has good magic and luck.

I already mentioned why I believe Oujay is better: he can use a Hand Axe and axes in general. Can explain how Oujay is outclassed? 

Also, I guess I should've mentioned that generally, axe users aren't good but since it's advantageous to have at least one axe user I think Gonzales is the best axe user in the game.

 

I believe Zeiss is better than Thea because of his higher con and defense.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Fates-Blade

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Fates-Blade said:

I already mentioned why I believe Oujay is better: he can use a Hand Axe and axes in general. Can explain how Oujay is outclassed? 

Better than who? Because I cannot see a case for him being better than Dieck, Rutger, or Fir (Fun fact, Oujay loses to Dieck in terms of level 20 stats pretty much across the board; all he has over him is a few points of speed and luck - and the former is negated by his con disadvantage anyway).

2 hours ago, Fates-Blade said:

Also, I guess I should've mentioned that generally, axe users aren't good but since it's advantageous to have at least one axe user I think Gonzales is the best axe user in the game.

If I really needed an axe user, I could do better than Gonzales, because at that point you're just scraping the bottom of the barrel.

2 hours ago, Fates-Blade said:

I believe Zeiss is better than Thea because of his higher con and defense.

He needs a hell of a lot more than that to be better when you consider the fact he's majorly underleveled at that point.

12 hours ago, Benice said:

Well, the Delphi shield is tradeable, plus his defence is good enough to both deal somewhat competently with Short bows and Ballistae, especially after promotion. It's not a Zeiss-exclusive problem, and it's even one he deals with better than the other fliers, Milady exempt for obvious reasons.

That means he needs to make a superior unit worse just to be usable. That's not convincing me he's worth it.

[sinfonic18]

On 12/3/2020 at 6:54 PM, Benice said:

Try and snag his blue gem as well-IIRC he has one of those too.

Yeah, she'll still be your best/second best unit.

This is about standard for Milady on HM. She can certainly still die if you try and enemy-phase everything with her, though. And not just by mages. I got that Milady killed by a wyvern.

This is also a fairly standard Shin on HM. I got him killed too.

Nope. He'll most likely fall off around ch. 9, but he can still last the western isles if he gets speed once or twice. I think in an older version of the patch, they didn't even bother to translate Marcus' full ending because nobody would actually bring him to endgame. That's how bad his growths are. That said, I read an LP where the player's Marcus was super blessed and was still viable at the end of the game, but that run was astoundingly weird.

 

Ilia. Ilia. Ilia. Ilia.

Sacae is...OOF. Some of the maps are really bad there. There's one in particular that I recall being really bad, and it's just overall REALLY punishing. Sure, there is some merit to going there, but it is much tougher.

Yeah, that is correct. You can also do both routes at once by levelling Shanna and Shin at the same pace, (Or Sue/Thea, but they're not very good...) then giving one a few more points in 16/16x.

Other advice for HM:

• Earlypromoting Rutger or Deke is a good idea, and many like getting Alan or Lance to level 10 and promoting them in ch. 7, but Noah could also work to that end if need be. Early promotion in general can be a good idea if you need more power ASAP, as FE6 boosts are quite large.
• If you are using Shanna, make sure to promote her at chapter 8/8x, even if she is only level 10. She won't be endgame viable this way, (Granted, I don't know if she would be even at 20/20) but she'll be really, really good in the western isles due to sword access and high speeds. What I did in my first practice run of HM was to get her as highly leveled as possible for the western isles, 'cause she's a great crutch there. (I actually managed to get her to use the Silver Lance by chapter 7, which was quite the boon for taking out the wyverns.)
• It is much, much harder than Normal. Be prepared for that. Different units are better or worse in this mode. Take Garret, for example. He's actually quite good in HM. Fir is also better, funnily enough.
• Not hard mode exclusive, but if you don't plan to use Hugh, (who is okay as a unit and is sturdier than Lugh or Lilina) you can pay him as little has 5,000 gold by refusing his offers until then. (This lowers all of his base stats a LOT, though.) If you decline 5k, he'll get angry and become unrecruitable.

RIP your Melady and Sin (Shin?? The translation I got from this site localized it as Sin, funnily enough.) Those are some attractive stats though, I was pretty blessed with Melady last time and all my other units were garbage, but now my other units are pretty good, hopefully she is blessed AGAIN with the growths she had last time, that'd be great.

On Marcus: I found this out quickly. He actually almost died in Ch. 7( That chapter is absolutely BRUTAL on Hard mode!)  and was extremely outclassed by a measly level 11 Lance.  I benched him and Zelot as soon as I got them and then trained my low level units in the arena (which btw, is extremely HARD on hard mode, I had to cheat with save states on that, but it saved me days worth of headaches so it's an exception) Funny you mention his growths, because my Marcus got to level 3 and got 2 1 stat level ups and 1 with zero stats. Just like, lol.

You can do both routes at once? How does that even work? I don't think I'd get there though, because my Shanna is already a lvl 1 Falcon Knight  (because I wanted her swords for the western isles which is axe hell like you mentioned). Perhaps I shouldn't have been so quick to arena grind... 

Garret wasn't that bad in NM. I used him as a filler unit, he wasn't good, nor bad. Just there. Still, I don't see the point in using him since I'm going to use Gonzales (if I don't slam my head on the desk, then I might find it better to use him just for my sanity)

Good advice actually! I didn't even know you could bargain with Hugh. I just paid upfront for him and benched him. Another thing, is I don't really see the point in using Fir when I have the sword god Rutger lol. In NM she was underleveled and I just saw her as redundant. Is she really worth training this time around?
 

22 hours ago, joevar said:

ILIA, period

the split route is: Thea lvl + shanna lvl greater than Sue + shin, for Ilia route. you can use all, but still go to ilia if the sum of thea and shanna is greater. that simple

shanna may have slight edge in speed when you recruit thea, but she has big boost to her base stat in HM over shanna

as long as you dont give her steel lance, she can even survive being in frontline by dodging, even more so if she has support with klein. just pretend you dont see +2 in her con

rather than arguing whether zeiss decent or bad in terms of power, more like we dont have any free slot to insert him for sortie, other than benching already-trained unit. imo it fall down to whether you like his character or not to the point you willing to spend any more time training unit halfway in the game (i do still train unit at that point, but somehow forgot to train zeiss)

-------

if only theres 2-3 more chapters to use Roy (guess what items/stat booster i use on Roy)

i dont remember in other FE, but Luck actually seems helps you more in FE6, i might be wrong tho.

I plan on using Thea. I know a lot of people would probably disagree with that but I like having 3 fliers. Same goes for Klein since bows were surprisingly good in this game (well, at least on NM.) 

My biggest gripe with this game is the LATE, and I mean LATE, promotion for Roy! Chapter 21, seriously? (chapter 21x if you get that) It makes him near useless past chapter 11. 😕 At least he was for me.

20 hours ago, ping said:

Maybe it helps if you see (most of) your prepromotes as tools to make it easier to train your long-term units. Marcus in particular is very good at setting up kills in the first couple chapters - with an Iron Sword, he barely misses the one-round-kill on literally every generic enemy in chapter 1, so he can weaken a couple of enemies on enemy phase that Allen, Lance, and/or Roy can then finish off for the full 30 XP. Marcus (and, to a lesser degree because you have more options when they join, other prepromotes such as Jerrot, Cecilia, or Klain) is incredibly useful that way without taking away very much kill XP at all. I overwrote my last finished FE6 file so I can't check, but I believe I have Marcus at around 100 fights and only ~10 kills in an average playthrough.

Most of the time in the early- to midgame, you have more unit slots than you have units that you realistically want to keep long-term, so you might as well fill those additional slots with Marcus and Jerrot instead of Wolt and Wendy. Most prepromotes seem to be intended to be used that way - temporary filler units to support your long-term growth prospects, since they will usually fall behind those prospects a handful of chapters after they joined.

Since you're mentioning Perceval: On HM, you should only recruit him in chapter 15, even though he already appears in ch.13. He doesn't get his HM bonus stats in ch.13 because FE6 mechanics are a bit janky at times, and it's a lot easier to recruit him in ch.15 anyways.

I did this! It was really easy to get my units up to level thanks to that Iron Sword lol. I went through 2 of those things doing that. I can see why Marcus is so useful in HM (not sure about NM since he might knock them out completely there) .On the note of Klien, how does he fare as a permanent member?  I wouldn't mind having another Bow user in this one (other than Sin. Shin? Sin? Whatever he is!) 

That's a good way to look at prepromotes. Not just for this, for a lot of FEs. Looking at them as way to make it easier to train better units you want doesn't take away EXP from them and makes it easier to do so. I never saw it like that, which was pretty dumb. 😛 

And even if I wanted to recruit him on CH. 13, I couldn't bring myself to do it. I tried like hell on NM and I still couldn't even do it. So unless I get really, really lucky and work some kind of miracle, I'll be forced to get him on Ch. 15

12 hours ago, joevar said:

i think you quote the wrong person??  im showing thea not to dimiss zeiss ...  but to show @sinfonic18 that its worth it to train her and not only for the purpose of going to ilia. equally good if i might say, you're choosing defense vs. speed. either you prefers on bulkiness or dodginess. *obviously why i give con booster to thea

but you say its harder to get thea of the ground? she appear with the same map that has arena & shops (lalum route, cant remember about Elphin route), so no sortie limit that she sacrifices while supplying the healer if need be. also i believe you can recruit her before the turns for reinforcement, so you can feed her a bit in the same chapter. while arena appear again two chapter after zeiss (counting the gaiden) and no shop to buy healing staves at that chapter to abuse (if you forgot to bring many spare like me, that is) and to get to him usually you already kill all enemy and most of the later spawn (also theres douglas there..., self explanatory)

I prefer dodginess which is why I like fliers. I prefer tankiness for like, warriors and berserkers. 

39 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Better than who? Because I cannot see a case for him being better than Dieck, Rutger, or Fir (Fun fact, Oujay loses to Dieck in terms of level 20 stats pretty much across the board; all he has over him is a few points of speed and luck - and the former is negated by his con disadvantage anyway).

If I really needed an axe user, I could do better than Gonzales, because at that point you're just scraping the bottom of the barrel.

He needs a hell of a lot more than that to be better when you consider the fact he's majorly underleveled at that point.

That means he needs to make a superior unit worse just to be usable. That's not convincing me he's worth it.

I think I can make Gonzales work on HM. I mean, I'll give it my best shot, no matter how frustrating. Crazier things have been done, right? 😄 

[Benice]

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

That means he needs to make a superior unit worse just to be usable. That's not convincing me he's worth it.

Milady doesn't exactly need the help. He doesn't require the Delphi shield to moderately tank, and neither does Milady, so they can swap as needed. They also have a support together and have the same movement, (granted, Milady has a chance to get the first pair of boots) so they can work very well in close proximity.

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

He needs a hell of a lot more than that to be better when you consider the fact he's majorly underleveled at that point.

Well, not counting ch. 16, since Zeiss isn't really useable there, and Thea's joining chapter for the same reasons, Thea joins

• Up to eight but as few as five maps earlier. This is nice, but given that she has between two to four maps between the next flier arriving and Shanna before her, she is sandwiched between two fliers better than her, making her much easier to overlook.
• Using her chapter 11 joining variant as it is better stat-wise, she will match Ziess' base strength at level 20/9, Ziess' base defense at level 20/16, (Or never, rounding Zeiss' defense up from it's 14.75) skill at level 11, HP as early at 14/1, and luck at level 13. She requires quite a bit of work to get her to match Zeiss' bases. Tate, however, has three points of speed on Zeiss, a gap that will only get larger as time goes on. However, Zeiss having five points of con more helps him out a lot, since with an iron lance, they have the same AS. With Killer Lances, she will only be outspeeding an equivalently leveled Zeiss by one point when she caps speed at level 18. She has the option of using slim lances or swords upon promotion, but she isn't strong enough to do good work with them. (Upon promotion she also gains one point of CON, which helps a little bit, but at 18/1, both are very similar in terms of speed with most weapons.) Using 18/1 as an example for both, Zeiss is still faster with Maltet, Brave Lances, so on and so forth. This gap will get wider as the two level, but Zeiss' better con allows for more versatility, his higher strength allows him to use lighter and more accurate weapons if need be.

So, this Tate has  up to seven maps on Zeiss, and that's her only real advantage. She has a little more time to get out of D rank, but unlike Zeiss, cannot make good use of the D-rank weapons available to her, losing significant chunks of AS from everything. She really needs to get her nose to the grindstone to stay meaningfully ahead of Zeiss, and since she'll still be significantly behind a 11/3 Shanna with the godlike Milady ahead of her-She is in an awkward spot between two other really good units. Fulfilling her job as the awkward midde sister in more ways than one!

Also, one last point: 10/1 Zeiss has higher HP, Strength and defense than a 20/1 Thea, and will only trail in Luck by 1-2 points and skill by three. The speed gap will be much larger, but Thea having to weigh herself down by four points of speed to do more damage, (Silver Lance, Gant's Lance) eleven points to use a brave weapon, five to use a javelin, etc. does diminish her higher speed a fair bit. The body ring can help here quite a lot, but she isn't the only candidate for it.

 

So yeah, I think that Thea is worse than Zeiss, but is still a good unit by the virtue of being a flyer who will eventually be pretty good, and since she's a flier, that's all she really needs to be. Her endgame stats are certainly impressive-it just takes some time getting her to a point where she'll stand on her own.

EDIT:

@sinfonic18, I got ninjad by you, so I'm responding here to avoid a double post. Sorry!

Quote

Funny you mention his growths, because my Marcus got to level 3 and got 2 1 stat level ups and 1 with zero stats. Just like, lol.

Yeah, that's about right. He does not get better as the game goes on. He might be able to find a use by nuking with a silver lance every once in a while, but 'das it.

Quote

You can do both routes at once? How does that even work?

It's a bit tricky, but keep track of how much exp your Ilian/Sacaen units get, put a save state at the end of ch. 16(x), get one to have more than the other, then do the same again with the other nationality surpassing their counterpart.

Quote

Garret wasn't that bad in NM. I used him as a filler unit, he wasn't good, nor bad. Just there. Still, I don't see the point in using him since I'm going to use Gonzales (if I don't slam my head on the desk, then I might find it better to use him just for my sanity)

Yeah, Garret's fine on NM. He is exactly as you described him. However, on HM, every unit's strength become more important and expressed, and the ability to climb and the crit rate+passable speed make him really nice in ch. 21 in particular.

Quote

I didn't even know you could bargain with Hugh.

Yep! You also get 5k gold in this chapter, (Up to 10 if you steal Narcian's blue gem and sell it at the secret shop) so you can always get Hugh!

Quote

Another thing, is I don't really see the point in using Fir when I have the sword god Rutger lol. In NM she was underleveled and I just saw her as redundant. Is she really worth training this time around?

She's better in HM in my opinion, but is still worse than Rutger. That said, Swrdmasters are really good and the axes make it really easy to get her up to a good level. Being worse than Rutger is nothing to be ashamed of. Also, it is probably best to use the Wo Dao earlier on, as towards endgame, despite the lovely crit rate, it is simply too weak to do much to most enemies aside from maybe mages.

So, as a short answer: If you want a second swordmaster and don't have any other Hero Crest users in mind, go ahead! Even if you plan to use Deke as well, she can still be used-Just make sure to nab a hero crest, (preferable for Deke, Fir won't do well unpromoted) in ch. 16.

Quote

I plan on using Thea. I know a lot of people would probably disagree with that but I like having 3 fliers.

 That's fine! She's still pretty good, and being the worst combat flier doesn't mean anything when you're still good. Marcus being worse than Zelot/Jerrot does not make Marcus bad at all.

Quote

My biggest gripe with this game is the LATE, and I mean LATE, promotion for Roy! Chapter 21, seriously? (chapter 21x if you get that) It makes him near useless past chapter 11. 😕 At least he was for me.

Roy's level of

Is much more grevious on HM. You'll probably wanna throw the lad an Angelic robe so that he isn't OHKO'd later on.

Quote

not sure about NM since he might knock them out completely there

He does, yeah. On HM, he's my favorite Jagen in the franchise with how perfectly he chips enemies down, though. Also, something worth noting is that with an Iron Axe, he should ORKO enemies in the earlygame and since the Silver Lance makes him face WTD most of the time, it's a good option to have him erase some axe or lance users.

Quote

Same goes for Klein since bows were surprisingly good in this game

I'd say that they're better on HM due to the increased amounts of player-phase action going on. And enemy wyverns are horrifying later on. And they come in droves. Shin/Sin is really good, but any bow user other than Wolt is quite good overall and will be able to contribute significantly at least a few times.

23 minutes ago, sinfonic18 said:

Same goes for Klein since bows were surprisingly good in this game

Let me get you some asprin.

That said, once he starts rolling, he'll be quite good. Especially with the +5 skill from promotion.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Benice

[ping]

1 hour ago, sinfonic18 said:

On the note of Klien, how does he fare as a permanent member?  I wouldn't mind having another Bow user in this one (other than Sin. Shin? Sin? Whatever he is!) 

He's quite decent, all things considered. His base stats (thanks to HM bonuses) and growths are actually comparable to those of unpromoted units - slightly worse growths overall, but they're still a fair bit higher than any other prepromote's. For me, he still falls behind a bit, but it's less because of his growths and more because of the old Archer dilemma - they're usually more useful when they set up a kill for someone else because nobody has to eat a counterattack that way, but they obviously don't gain as much XP if used that way.

But with a bit of commitment, he does fine. Without it, Igrene is a bit better overall.

1 hour ago, sinfonic18 said:

On Marcus: I found this out quickly. He actually almost died in Ch. 7( That chapter is absolutely BRUTAL on Hard mode!)  and was extremely outclassed by a measly level 11 Lance.  I benched him and Zelot as soon as I got them and then trained my low level units in the arena (which btw, is extremely HARD on hard mode, I had to cheat with save states on that, but it saved me days worth of headaches so it's an exception) Funny you mention his growths, because my Marcus got to level 3 and got 2 1 stat level ups and 1 with zero stats. Just like, lol.

And with that, you basically got full value out of Marcus. He and Zealot are still decent units to field for a while thanks to their high mobility and full weapon triangle control, but Marcus' real value is to get you to a point where other unit can start carrying while also helping those other units to gain the necessary levels. He's obviously not the strongest Jeigan in the series (that's just impossible with Seth and Titania existing), but I consider him to be the best in this role as a earlygame crutch.

Edited December 5, 2020 by ping

[joevar]

2 hours ago, sinfonic18 said:

Is she really worth training this time around?

Fir could turn out good, but not great in my playthru. so definitely not gonna replace your rutger. her str a bit lacking

2 hours ago, sinfonic18 said:

I prefer dodginess which is why I like fliers. I prefer tankiness for like, warriors and berserkers. 

give thea con stat booster so she's not dragged down badly by the weight of lance, if you plan to use her.
other candidate for con doesnt need it as badly as her imo.

2 hours ago, sinfonic18 said:

My biggest gripe with this game is the LATE, and I mean LATE, promotion for Roy! Chapter 21, seriously? (chapter 21x if you get that) It makes him near useless past chapter 11. 😕 At least he was for me.

yes, its everyone. not just you. its just bad design, period

 

1 hour ago, Benice said:

It's a bit tricky, but keep track of how much exp your Ilian/Sacaen units get, put a save state at the end of ch. 16(x), get one to have more than the other, then do the same again with the other nationality surpassing their counterpart.

thats just branching with saves, no? you still do it independently right?

also comparing promoted shanna with unpromoted thea who just joined is never a fair comparison. i choose to bench shanna when comparing her still unpromoted, then lvling thea to same lvl and her total stat really above her. so i dont get why she must take the blow as the inferior choice just because theres melady in several more chapter. (i mean, everyone is worse than melady except everyone favorite, rutger)

but ofc it is fair when you play LTC with tier list in mind

melady dont need delphi? why not... between another flier who focus on dodging and one that have higher chance getting hit and have HP to compensate it, i choose latter

Edited December 5, 2020 by joevar

[Benice]

9 hours ago, joevar said:

thats just branching with saves, no? you still do it independently right?

Yes, yes.

9 hours ago, joevar said:

also comparing promoted shanna with unpromoted thea who just joined is never a fair comparison.

The thing is that Shanna should be promoted; comparing base level Raigh with base level Niime isn't a fair comparison, but comparing a 20/18-ish Raigh is because then you can compare that way and that is more realistically would be. (I get that it's a bad comparison,but I works, kind of.) I am simply saying that Thea is trapped between two better fliers: Shanna and Milady, so it's harder to see her usefulness as Shanna still hasn't fallen off and you have a replacement for her.

9 hours ago, joevar said:

i dont get why she must take the blow as the inferior choice just because theres melady in several more chapter

Well, it's harder to see the value of Allance in chapter 1 when Marcus exists and is better than them and Jerrot is ahead of them. Even though one of Allance will be better than both Marcus and Jerrot, some people will see less of a point to using them when you get good prepromotes the whole way along.

9 hours ago, joevar said:

other candidate for con doesnt need it as badly as her imo.

I agree with this. That said, if you're struggling, it might be better to give to Echidna to put her good speed and skill to better use.