Jump to content

What are the best units to train in The Binding Blade?


sinfonic18
 Share

Recommended Posts

10 hours ago, Benice said:

I agree with this. That said, if you're struggling, it might be better to give to Echidna to put her good speed and skill to better use.

i actually did that. her speed and skill almost on par with rutger, but her str and higher weight of axe make her struggle a bit, altho still wreck many lance wyvern with killer axe

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 135
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

On 12/4/2020 at 10:22 AM, Benice said:

The thing is that Shanna is your only flier until Thea. Plus, a level 8 Shanna is still almost en par with Thea on HM. Shanna also should have promoted by this point,  so she should be far and away better than Thea, and Shanna's probably falling off by this point. It's a lot harder to get Thea off the ground than it is to get Zeiss. She also only starts with a D in lances, and unlike Zeiss, she doesn't have the base strength to make up for it and deal significant damage with an iron or steel lance. (Which Thea really shouldn't be using either way.)

Even so, D lances is easier to forgive when you come in the first half of the game, which Zeiss doesn't. Also, it's not like Zeiss wants to be using steel lances, with their lol-tastic 55 base hit.

19 hours ago, Benice said:

Milady doesn't exactly need the help. He doesn't require the Delphi shield to moderately tank, and neither does Milady, so they can swap as needed. They also have a support together and have the same movement, (granted, Milady has a chance to get the first pair of boots) so they can work very well in close proximity.

I'd imagine she'd need it in Sacae, as while nomads might not look that threatening at first glance, they have boosted crit, and without it, crits are not exactly going to be love taps. Just to put things into perspective, on hard mode 20/1 Miledy (50 HP/22 Defense) loses about 1/3 of her health to a crit from a nomad. Nomad Troopers are even worse, doing over half of her health on crit. That's no good! Also, I'd imagine using both in Sacae is just asking for trouble.

19 hours ago, Benice said:

Well, not counting ch. 16, since Zeiss isn't really useable there, and Thea's joining chapter for the same reasons, Thea joins

  • Up to eight but as few as five maps earlier. This is nice, but given that she has between two to four maps between the next flier arriving and Shanna before her, she is sandwiched between two fliers better than her, making her much easier to overlook.
  • Using her chapter 11 joining variant as it is better stat-wise, she will match Ziess' base strength at level 20/9, Ziess' base defense at level 20/16, (Or never, rounding Zeiss' defense up from it's 14.75) skill at level 11, HP as early at 14/1, and luck at level 13. She requires quite a bit of work to get her to match Zeiss' bases. Tate, however, has three points of speed on Zeiss, a gap that will only get larger as time goes on. However, Zeiss having five points of con more helps him out a lot, since with an iron lance, they have the same AS. With Killer Lances, she will only be outspeeding an equivalently leveled Zeiss by one point when she caps speed at level 18. She has the option of using slim lances or swords upon promotion, but she isn't strong enough to do good work with them. (Upon promotion she also gains one point of CON, which helps a little bit, but at 18/1, both are very similar in terms of speed with most weapons.) Using 18/1 as an example for both, Zeiss is still faster with Maltet, Brave Lances, so on and so forth. This gap will get wider as the two level, but Zeiss' better con allows for more versatility, his higher strength allows him to use lighter and more accurate weapons if need be.

So, this Tate has  up to seven maps on Zeiss, and that's her only real advantage. She has a little more time to get out of D rank, but unlike Zeiss, cannot make good use of the D-rank weapons available to her, losing significant chunks of AS from everything. She really needs to get her nose to the grindstone to stay meaningfully ahead of Zeiss, and since she'll still be significantly behind a 11/3 Shanna with the godlike Milady ahead of her-She is in an awkward spot between two other really good units. Fulfilling her job as the awkward midde sister in more ways than one!

Also, one last point: 10/1 Zeiss has higher HP, Strength and defense than a 20/1 Thea, and will only trail in Luck by 1-2 points and skill by three. The speed gap will be much larger, but Thea having to weigh herself down by four points of speed to do more damage, (Silver Lance, Gant's Lance) eleven points to use a brave weapon, five to use a javelin, etc. does diminish her higher speed a fair bit. The body ring can help here quite a lot, but she isn't the only candidate for it.

 

So yeah, I think that Thea is worse than Zeiss, but is still a good unit by the virtue of being a flyer who will eventually be pretty good, and since she's a flier, that's all she really needs to be. Her endgame stats are certainly impressive-it just takes some time getting her to a point where she'll stand on her own.

I still think Zeiss's availability disadvantage and coming underleveled is damning enough to cement him as inferior. Whereas I could easily slot in Thea, Zeiss still joins late enough that I'd have to kick out someone else who I'd have invested quite a bit in (a VERY tough sell, to be sure), and doesn't bring enough to the table (that Miledy or another superior unit doesn't) to make up for it...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Also, it's not like Zeiss wants to be using steel lances, with their lol-tastic 55 base hit.

Steel lances have their moments; being able to use javelins more effectively also matters. Plus, due to his ability to promote early without getting rid of all of his potential means that reaching C in lances for killer lances is really easy. And once more, reaching higher lance rank isn't doing much for Thea since everything she's getting access to is too heavy for her; she'll need a lot of levels to make use of them so that her speed can get good enough to double and salvage her mediocre strength, whereas Zeiss needs three levels and an Elysian whip to start dishing out big damage. At some point, Thea will become fast enough to use non-iron weapons, it's just a really large investment to get her there. Once more, I feel that she is worth that investment.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Just to put things into perspective, on hard mode 20/1 Miledy (50 HP/22 Defense) loses about 1/3 of her health to a crit from a nomad.

So three five-six percent chances have to land on a single enemy phase. Using ch. 17s, it does actually take the nomad troopers three crits to fell her. The six-to-nine damage damage is quite negligible, as is 18-27 occurring once per enemy phase. If one is going to send Milady into that many enemies, the Delphi shield will be on her. If not, it'll be on one of your Falcon Knights if used, since, unlike Zeiss, they need it. Ziess is about en par with Melady in terms of defensive stats, so he can help bear the brunt of a lot of attacks even without the Delphi shield. Once more, Zeiss' better stats everywhere but speed, which is good enough, allows for flexibility that Thea won't allow. Thea is still worth using on the strength of being a flier, but she'll be outdone by Zeiss if he's used.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Whereas I could easily slot in Thea, Zeiss still joins late enough that I'd have to kick out someone else who I'd have invested quite a bit in

Wait, but you should alrady have an established team by the time Thea joins. Using ch. 12, which has 13 deployment slots, (Which I think means 12 with Roy included, but do correct me if I'm wrong) I could quite easily have this filled out; (In no particular order)

Spoiler
  1. Roy
  2. Rutger
  3. Deke
  4. Alan
  5. Lance
  6. Jerrot/Zelot
  7. Shanna
  8. Lugh/Lilina
  9. Chad/Astore, (If not both, which you certainly will for this chapter to get the gaiden and all the chests)
  10. Saul/Elen
  11. Clarine
  12. Echidna/Bartre
  13. Fir
  14. Klein
  15. Elphin/Larum

All of those units at this point would have had their roles established, and Thea won't be adding a lot of star-power right away. She will take time, and while I think she's worth it, she will be replacing one of these units.

Because it's really easy, I could justify bringing her to 12x, but she won't be amongst your top 7 non-Roy units to bring there. Chapter 13 has 14 deployment slots and no thieves needed here, but she still won't necessarily be better than her alternatives. In chapter 14, she COULD  be deployed, but unless she's been used dilligently, she'll be in a fair bit of danger here. You'll already have Milady and Shanna as superior alternatives for fliers, then you'll need a thief as well. Once more, she isn't a clear winner.

My point being that Zeiss isn't the only one you have to replace someone else with; I think that they're both worth it.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

and doesn't bring enough to the table (that Miledy or another superior unit doesn't) to make up for it...

He brings a ton to the table; his one big drawback is the fact that it will take him a little while to reach C in lances, and promotion instantly gets him there. He's really bulky, he's really strong, he is reasonably reasonably fast, he's easy to train. He doesn't take much time or effort to become one of your best units.

 

However, I don't feel that either of us are going to change our minds here, so perhaps it's best to drop it. Please do reply (if you want to) but unless something changes in the conversation, I feel that I'll just be derailing the thread and might not respond.

Edited by Benice
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/5/2020 at 2:01 AM, Benice said:

 

@sinfonic18, I got ninjad by you, so I'm responding here to avoid a double post. Sorry!

Yeah, that's about right. He does not get better as the game goes on. He might be able to find a use by nuking with a silver lance every once in a while, but 'das it.

It's a bit tricky, but keep track of how much exp your Ilian/Sacaen units get, put a save state at the end of ch. 16(x), get one to have more than the other, then do the same again with the other nationality surpassing their counterpart.

Yeah, Garret's fine on NM. He is exactly as you described him. However, on HM, every unit's strength become more important and expressed, and the ability to climb and the crit rate+passable speed make him really nice in ch. 21 in particular.

Yep! You also get 5k gold in this chapter, (Up to 10 if you steal Narcian's blue gem and sell it at the secret shop) so you can always get Hugh!

She's better in HM in my opinion, but is still worse than Rutger. That said, Swrdmasters are really good and the axes make it really easy to get her up to a good level. Being worse than Rutger is nothing to be ashamed of. Also, it is probably best to use the Wo Dao earlier on, as towards endgame, despite the lovely crit rate, it is simply too weak to do much to most enemies aside from maybe mages.

So, as a short answer: If you want a second swordmaster and don't have any other Hero Crest users in mind, go ahead! Even if you plan to use Deke as well, she can still be used-Just make sure to nab a hero crest, (preferable for Deke, Fir won't do well unpromoted) in ch. 16.

 That's fine! She's still pretty good, and being the worst combat flier doesn't mean anything when you're still good. Marcus being worse than Zelot/Jerrot does not make Marcus bad at all.

Roy's level of

Is much more grevious on HM. You'll probably wanna throw the lad an Angelic robe so that he isn't OHKO'd later on.

He does, yeah. On HM, he's my favorite Jagen in the franchise with how perfectly he chips enemies down, though. Also, something worth noting is that with an Iron Axe, he should ORKO enemies in the earlygame and since the Silver Lance makes him face WTD most of the time, it's a good option to have him erase some axe or lance users.

I'd say that they're better on HM due to the increased amounts of player-phase action going on. And enemy wyverns are horrifying later on. And they come in droves. Shin/Sin is really good, but any bow user other than Wolt is quite good overall and will be able to contribute significantly at least a few times.

Same goes for Klein since bows were surprisingly good in this game

Let me get you some asprin.

That said, once he starts rolling, he'll be quite good. Especially with the +5 skill from promotion.

Haha no problem. I got yelled at for double posting when I first joined so, definitely make sure you watch out for accidentally doing that. xD 

Now here is where I'm confused. You can't do both routes in one playthrough right? If you can, I was planning on getting Sin and Shanna/Thea on the same level with the Arena in Ch. 13 and keeping them equally leveled until then. That's not how this works though, isn't it? It's one per playthrough, right?

Garret, even on NM, was a really nice filler unit since some chapters towards the end of the game give you like 9 billion unit slots, and you'll have more than you have established units lol. 

I used my two hero crest I got from ch. 7 and 10a on Rutger and Dieck, so Gonzales and Fir will have to wait a bit for another one sadly. Still, it's not really a big deal right now since they are pretty decent unpromoted even.

Also, perfect video to describe Roy's(especially mine) situation in hard mode. XD

At the end there, were you talking about Klein or Gonzales? If it's the latter, so far I'm good on not needing meds, I gave him a skill book and supported him with Lilina, and his hit rates are no where near as abysmal as they were last time around. KNOCK. ON. WOOD.

23 hours ago, ping said:

He's quite decent, all things considered. His base stats (thanks to HM bonuses) and growths are actually comparable to those of unpromoted units - slightly worse growths overall, but they're still a fair bit higher than any other prepromote's. For me, he still falls behind a bit, but it's less because of his growths and more because of the old Archer dilemma - they're usually more useful when they set up a kill for someone else because nobody has to eat a counterattack that way, but they obviously don't gain as much XP if used that way.

But with a bit of commitment, he does fine. Without it, Igrene is a bit better overall. ;):

And with that, you basically got full value out of Marcus. He and Zealot are still decent units to field for a while thanks to their high mobility and full weapon triangle control, but Marcus' real value is to get you to a point where other unit can start carrying while also helping those other units to gain the necessary levels. He's obviously not the strongest Jeigan in the series (that's just impossible with Seth and Titania existing), but I consider him to be the best in this role as a earlygame crutch.

I see. I always never use archers/snipers in any FE (minus 3H because close counter) because of that exact reason. But found with this game that most maps are wyvern-hell, and regardless of enemy phase problems, that knockout on promoted wyverns really helps. I don't really want to invest too much into a sniper though, so perhaps I will use him and wait for Igrene to come along, now that you've said it. 

My god, Seth. That has to be the best unit in the entire series lol. I mean, yeah, part of it is The Sacred Stones is easy even on difficult mode, but with his growths and base stats at the start of the game, as well as 20 levels to improve and his weapon levels, he can literally SOLO the game on difficult mode by himself. Provided you have some luck though, I managed to do it on my last playthrough of FE8 before I played this (just for fun, since I did two runs normally) 

I went on a tangent about Seth but he is the only pre-promoted unit in FE (binding blade exception) that I consider absolute mandatory for every team! He's like a growth unit that is good all the time.

22 hours ago, joevar said:

Fir could turn out good, but not great in my playthru. so definitely not gonna replace your rutger. her str a bit lacking

give thea con stat booster so she's not dragged down badly by the weight of lance, if you plan to use her.
other candidate for con doesnt need it as badly as her imo.

yes, its everyone. not just you. its just bad design, period

 

Right now she is decent but definitely not rutger, you're right there. She's a great body-guard unit for the axe-haven that is these chapters but she gets squashed by the almighty god. Still, I plan on using her and even promoting her when I can deploy more units than I want to permanently have.

What about Shanna? Is thea's Con really that low? If so, I will have to keep it from Melady this time and give it to her.

Very bad design. Horrible design, actually. I'm glad they fixed that in FE7 where either Lyn or Eliwood/Hector could promote like, 8 chapters before the final one. Been nice if they did that for Roy. 😞 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, sinfonic18 said:

It's one per playthrough, right?

Technically, it is one per playthrough. The way it works is:

At the end of 16 (Or 16x if it is unlocked) the game will count all of the exp, not amount of levels that Shin/Sue/Thea/Shanna had and will compare the Ilians to the Sacaens. If the Sacaens have more exp points gained, then you go to Sacae. If they are tied or or the Ilians got more, you go to Ilia.

However, if you put a save-state in 16(x) right at the end and give one more than the other there, you can experience both routes. It's probably more of a hassle than it's worth.

24 minutes ago, sinfonic18 said:

At the end there, were you talking about Klein or Gonzales?

Oh, Gonzales. Klein's pretty good. He'll have easy access to Mulagir, which is superb; a shame about it's late arriving time, but boy do you need it. His bases are good and his growths are good enough that, if invested into, will be competent through the whole game.

24 minutes ago, sinfonic18 said:

What about Shanna? Is thea's Con really that low? If so, I will have to keep it from Melady this time and give it to her.

Shanna has even worse con than Thea, but because of her earlier joining time, her slim lance can still deal somewhat okay damage. She actually has a higher speed base than NM Thea. At the pint in the game where Shanna is most helpful, (being the western isles and maybe a few more chapters afterwards, where she'll be a flying Jagen) her stats are good enough for what she does. She will excel in the short term and that's all she really has to do-pus the fact that she's the only flier you have and the only flier who can use the first Elysian whip. Thea joins after a point where there is such a niche and there is more competition for the elysian whips you get. So, she's good, but not as good as Shanna.

Um, but I wouldn't bother giving Shanna the body ring, since she'll be outliving her usefulness fairly soon.

24 minutes ago, sinfonic18 said:

Very bad design. Horrible design, actually. I'm glad they fixed that in FE7 where either Lyn or Eliwood/Hector could promote like, 8 chapters before the final one. Been nice if they did that for Roy. 😞 

I'm pretty sore about that actually, since Hector's late promotion gets him ORKO'd by most enemies in chapter 28. Eliwood has the same problem, but his mode is a lot easier...

Edited by Benice
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, sinfonic18 said:

so perhaps I will use him and wait for Igrene to come along, now that you've said it.

no! invest in him! (klein). he can have support with clarine and thea which im sure you use. (and have more chance to fully max it compared to igrene)

well if you dont want, its okay tho. no deal breaker.

1 hour ago, sinfonic18 said:

Is thea's Con really that low

sadly yes. but after you give her boost, she can dodge almost everything in my playthru since her luck also high, i dont even care if theres any ballista or archer as long as she didnt equip steel lance

 

did you pick bartre or echidna this time?

Edited by joevar
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/6/2020 at 3:38 AM, Benice said:

Technically, it is one per playthrough. The way it works is:

At the end of 16 (Or 16x if it is unlocked) the game will count all of the exp, not amount of levels that Shin/Sue/Thea/Shanna had and will compare the Ilians to the Sacaens. If the Sacaens have more exp points gained, then you go to Sacae. If they are tied or or the Ilians got more, you go to Ilia.

However, if you put a save-state in 16(x) right at the end and give one more than the other there, you can experience both routes. It's probably more of a hassle than it's worth.

Oh, Gonzales. Klein's pretty good. He'll have easy access to Mulagir, which is superb; a shame about it's late arriving time, but boy do you need it. His bases are good and his growths are good enough that, if invested into, will be competent through the whole game.

Shanna has even worse con than Thea, but because of her earlier joining time, her slim lance can still deal somewhat okay damage. She actually has a higher speed base than NM Thea. At the pint in the game where Shanna is most helpful, (being the western isles and maybe a few more chapters afterwards, where she'll be a flying Jagen) her stats are good enough for what she does. She will excel in the short term and that's all she really has to do-pus the fact that she's the only flier you have and the only flier who can use the first Elysian whip. Thea joins after a point where there is such a niche and there is more competition for the elysian whips you get. So, she's good, but not as good as Shanna.

Um, but I wouldn't bother giving Shanna the body ring, since she'll be outliving her usefulness fairly soon.

 

Ahh, I get it now. I think you're right though, tbh it's more hassle than it's worth and the fact that everyone here says Ilia route is better it just doesn't seem to have any desirability or significance to the enjoyment of the game for me. So, whatever the game takes me to I will go to.

I've been using Klein since he joined and I'll say, he is very  helpful especially with the wyvern heavy maps, but since I don't see the point in investing in him I think I will get Igrene and bench him this time around. She requires less investment from what Ping said. 

I'll be honest with you, my Shanna is infinitely more useful than my same-level promoted Thea, she also has infinitely better stats than her minus Str. Thea was becoming a chore to use, too be honest, and shanna is just now becoming a huge help with combat thanks to her dodginess. Perhaps I got unlucky this time around with my thea, but I haven't given either one of them the body ring I got on ch. 13 since neither deserve or really even need it right now. I think I'll give it to Shanna though if someone else doesn't need it. (My lance seems to have trouble with weapons weighing him down.)

On 12/6/2020 at 4:58 AM, joevar said:

no! invest in him! (klein). he can have support with clarine and thea which im sure you use. (and have more chance to fully max it compared to igrene)

well if you dont want, its okay tho. no deal breaker.

sadly yes. but after you give her boost, she can dodge almost everything in my playthru since her luck also high, i dont even care if theres any ballista or archer as long as she didnt equip steel lance

 

did you pick bartre or echidna this time?

I benched Thea actually for reasons I stated above. I used Clarine last time in NM and wanted to use Saul as my healer this time and am regretting it, since mounted healers are better in every way. I figured Saul's higher magic would make him worth it, but now I know that's not the case. So I'm a bit conflicted on rather I should bench or invest him. I had my answer before but now that I've ran into some difficulties I might need to change my decision. xD

I used Echidna this time since I got Bartre last time. She hits a lot better and faster but I will admit, her Str is kind of lacking and her low sword rank kind of hurts. I admittedly like Bartre a lot better, since I think Dieck does Echidna's job better.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, sinfonic18 said:

I don't see the point in investing in him I think I will get Igrene and bench him this time around. She requires less investment from what Ping said. 

Yep-And if you go to Sacae, you get one more decent prepromote bow user. Speaking of, are you using Shin?

12 minutes ago, sinfonic18 said:

'll be honest with you, my Shanna is infinitely more useful than my same-level promoted Thea, she also has infinitely better stats than her minus Str. Thea was becoming a chore to use, too be honest, and shanna is just now becoming a huge help with combat thanks to her dodginess. Perhaps I got unlucky this time around with my thea,

Probably did, since Shanna's a bit like a Jagen and will eventually be outdone by Thea. Thea's bases are low-ish for her join time, though. If she isn't going well, it is probably a good idea to drop her.

27 minutes ago, sinfonic18 said:

I haven't given either one of them the body ring I got on ch. 13 since neither deserve or really even need it right now.

If you're liking the look of Echidna, it's probably best on her, since she'll be needing it to use killer axes and whatnot. But yeah, giving it to anyone who needs it seems good.

33 minutes ago, sinfonic18 said:

I benched Thea actually for reasons I stated above. I used Clarine last time in NM and wanted to use Saul as my healer this time and am regretting it, since mounted healers are better in every way. I figured Saul's higher magic would make him worth it, but now I know that's not the case. So I'm a bit conflicted on rather I should bench or invest him. I had my answer before but now that I've ran into some difficulties I might need to change my decision. xD

You can always use both if you've got the deployment slots! More staffers is always nice. Plus, for mounted healers, Cecilia is a great option.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

On 12/4/2020 at 10:59 PM, Shadow Mir said:

Better than who? Because I cannot see a case for him being better than Dieck, Rutger, or Fir (Fun fact, Oujay loses to Dieck in terms of level 20 stats pretty much across the board; all he has over him is a few points of speed and luck - and the former is negated by his con disadvantage anyway).

If I really needed an axe user, I could do better than Gonzales, because at that point you're just scraping the bottom of the barrel.

He needs a hell of a lot more than that to be better when you consider the fact he's majorly underleveled at that point.

That means he needs to make a superior unit worse just to be usable. That's not convincing me he's worth it.

EDITED:

I already mentioned Dieck is one of the best units, but I think Oujay is too.

Again, can you explain how Rutger and Fir outclass Oujay. He can use Hand Axes, so 1-2 range, Rutger and Fir have no 1-2 options, Bows and magic will be a problem for them but not for Oujay, he also has good con, str, lck, def, HP, and supports. Also Karel is a Swordmaster that joins late, and can serve as a good replacement for Fir and Rutger, if needed.

Can you give an example of a better axe user than Gonzales?

Gonzales has solid growths, base stats, amazing con, good supports and becomes a Berserker which gives +30 Crit, and can go into mountains that gives +30 avoid.

Zeiss may be underleveled but Shanna or Thea can't compete with the def, str, hp, or Con that Zeiss has, and since the Killer Lance and Javelin are some of the best weapons in FE6 and Shanna (-5/-7 spd) and Thea (-4/-6 spd) can't wield them without significant speed lose, he is better. Especially because of his Str, Def and decent spd. Stats you need to beat the game, he may even have, if they all wielded Killer Lances or Javelins, equal Spd to Shanna and Thea or better if given Speedwings.

I'm saying all this for a no arena playthough of normal mode, hard mode might be different.

Edited by Fates-Blade
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, sinfonic18 said:

I've been using Klein since he joined and I'll say, he is very  helpful especially with the wyvern heavy maps, but since I don't see the point in investing in him I think I will get Igrene and bench him this time around. She requires less investment from what Ping said. 

I'll be honest with you, my Shanna is infinitely more useful than my same-level promoted Thea, she also has infinitely better stats than her minus Str. Thea was becoming a chore to use, too be honest, and shanna is just now becoming a huge help with combat thanks to her dodginess. Perhaps I got unlucky this time around with my thea, but I haven't given either one of them the body ring I got on ch. 13 since neither deserve or really even need it right now. I think I'll give it to Shanna though if someone else doesn't need it. (My lance seems to have trouble with weapons weighing him down.)

igrene does have better stat when joining. since you dont use clarine and thea, no need to use klein who can easily gain support from them

thea not turn out good? aww. i hate RNG stat. discussion

3 hours ago, sinfonic18 said:

I used Echidna this time since I got Bartre last time. She hits a lot better and faster but I will admit, her Str is kind of lacking and her low sword rank kind of hurts. I admittedly like Bartre a lot better, since I think Dieck does Echidna's job better.

berserker always have hit harder. its just a matter if you want to play safe and make sure to whittle down enemy hp, or want to One Round KO enemy with chance for miss. pick your poison

also same as above thing, my promoted Dieck have average str, mediocre speed and okay-ish skill. so he's unreliable despite being hero, he takes almost as much dmg as he gives

there. same as thea discussion, but this time, Dieck sucks in my playthru. cant convince me otherwise since thats what happen.

Edited by joevar
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/6/2020 at 12:50 AM, Benice said:

Steel lances have their moments; being able to use javelins more effectively also matters. Plus, due to his ability to promote early without getting rid of all of his potential means that reaching C in lances for killer lances is really easy. And once more, reaching higher lance rank isn't doing much for Thea since everything she's getting access to is too heavy for her; she'll need a lot of levels to make use of them so that her speed can get good enough to double and salvage her mediocre strength, whereas Zeiss needs three levels and an Elysian whip to start dishing out big damage. At some point, Thea will become fast enough to use non-iron weapons, it's just a really large investment to get her there. Once more, I feel that she is worth that investment.

Like when? Because 55 base hit blows monkey dick. Also, while Zeiss loses less AS from javelins, this game is hardly one I'd want to be using javelins in anyway, because their accuracy is godawful.

1 hour ago, Fates-Blade said:

Again, can you explain how Rutger and Fir outclass Oujay. He can use Hand Axes, so 1-2 range, Rutger and Fir have no 1-2 options, Bows and magic will be a problem for them but not for Oujay, he also has good con, str, lck, def, HP, and supports. Also Karel is a Swordmaster that joins late, and can serve as a good replacement for Fir and Rutger, if needed.

Because they get 30 crit from promotion, which is way better than gaining the ability to use axes when axes are arguably at their lowest point in the series. It's not like Oujay will be single-handedly cleaving through regiments of enemy units with a hand axe, due to their accuracy being terrible and enemies actually being durable. If anything, the most likely scenario is that whatever Oujay gets attacked by doesn't die, either due to misses or hand axes being weak along with the enemies not sucking (and once again, his con is not that good, as 9 is low enough to be weighed down by every axe). As a result, I'd be better off killing ranged enemies on my turn and leaving melee enemies to kill themselves come enemy phase. On top of that Oujay's support list isn't that good, as three of them are the Ostian knights, who suck, and the other two are Lilina, who's pretty iffy as a unit, and Lalum, which is the dreaded 1+1. Incidentally, the consensus is that Rutger and Fir are better than Oujay, so if anything, I'd say the burden of proof is on you to prove Oujay is better.

2 hours ago, Fates-Blade said:

Can you give an example of a better axe user than Gonzales?

Gonzales has solid growths, base stats, amazing con, good supports and becomes a Berserker which gives +30 Crit, and can go into mountains that gives +30 avoid.

Anyone who's in a class that gains axes on promotion since they'll actually have the skill to hit with them, unlike Gonzales, who can't even hit the broad side of a barn. Among the units with them at base, Gonzales might be the best, but that's saying very little as axe infantry in this game suck.

Ganzales's con also works against him, as it makes him virtually unrescuable, which is bad in a game like this where mounted units are the only ones getting anywhere in a timely fashion. His support list sucks too, as Lilina is literally the only decent support he has speed wise (and his supports don't do enough to fix his trash hit anyway). Mountain walking is not very practical, either. And all the crit in the world won't do Gonzales a lick of good if he can't hit.

4 hours ago, Fates-Blade said:

Zeiss may be underleveled but Shanna or Thea can't compete with the def, str, hp, or Con that Zeiss has, and since the Killer Lance and Javelin are some of the best weapons in FE6 and Shanna (-5/-7 spd) and Thea (-4/-6 spd) can't wield them without significant speed lose, he is better. Especially because of his Str, Def and decent spd. Stats you need to beat the game, he may even have, if they all wielded Killer Lances or Javelins, equal Spd to Shanna and Thea or better if given Speedwings.

I'm saying all this for a no arena playthough of normal mode, hard mode might be different.

At the same time, unless it's a knight, which are pretty much phased out at that point, he can't double ever, which leaves him with only one try to score a critical with a Killer Lance. Also, I call BS on javelins being one of the best weapons in FE6 for reasons stated already. What's more, you'd have to completely ignore the fact that Zeiss comes underleveled and late to say he's better, because that's a very, very, VERY damning flaw, and one I'm not so generous as to forgive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

IsaidIwouldn'treplybutIlied

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Like when?

Upon promotion, he'll have a chance to OHKO enemy mages, as well as overall bigger damage in a pinch. Is the Steel Lance good? No, it's really bad. But the option and utility to use it without tanking your speed down by seven-eight points of speed. Zeiss is still slowed, but it matters less for him since he can tank quite well.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

this game is hardly one I'd want to be using javelins in anyway, because their accuracy is godawful.

The utility and option to use them is still nice. Again, they're bad but not useless. 1-2 range is still nice and despite the fact that it is unreliable, having, say, 45-60% chance to deal 20~ damage every time a ranged enemy attacks is better than 0%. Especially when later on he'll be doubling some mages. You can't do everything with javelins in this game, but the utility and ability remains helpful. Plus, you can have five different items at once; simply having a javelin doesn't mean not having anything else.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

when axes are arguably at their lowest point in the series.

I honestly feel that axes are pretty good in this game and that lances are much worse. Having WTA against wyverns is really nice, and basically everything in Ilia has lances. Deke makes fantastic use of axes between his absurd consitution and really high skill, (Starting at E sucks a lot, but if the player chooses to promote him early, it won't be too huge of a deterrent) basically any paladin can use them as well. Plus, berserkers are really good, getting +5 skill from promotion, amongst other things. Geese works okay, Gonzales is a huge investment, (he'll most likely be taking all of your secret books and goddess icons) but will turn out really good once/if his skill problem is dealt with, but you have Garret, who joins pretty good...So on and so forth. The problem with most axe units in this game is that the units themselves suck, not the axes. Most axes are equal to their Thracian predecessors but have the benefit of 2rn this time. Well, that and the fact that they share a promotion item with swordmasters and Deke, who are actually good as units. I feel that Lot's pretty okay.

tl;dr using axes isn't inherently a bad thing.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

And all the crit in the world won't do Gonzales a lick of good if he can't hit.

To illustrate above rant, I will use Gonzales, one of the least accurate units in the game. At 10/10, (A route Gonzales) he'll have exactly 15 skill and eleven luck, or +41 hit. Let's arbitrarily take Ilia 17, because he'd feasibly have about 20 total levels by then if he's used. Heck, at 10/1 he'll only be about 4 points less accurate, so he doesn't even have to be trained dilligently.

Spoiler

 

In this particular map there are 12 cavaliers, 11 of which Gonzales will have WTA against and one of which who has an axereaver.

Against the non-axereaver ones, Gonzales will have between 8-11 avoid against him if you factor in the weapon triangle. They have 8-9 AS, so he easily doubles. He'll have 26 strength as well, meaning 34x2 attack with an iron axe. They have 38-42 HP and 9-10 defense, so he ORKO's comfortably with an iron axe. And he will do so with 95 hit at the very lowest.

 

Mages (A whole whopping four of them) in this chapter have 12-10 AS, meaning they're also doubled. They'll be able to survive up to 35 attack, but most won't. They have 26-28 avoid, plus one with 28-31. With an iron axe, (which will almost always OHKO) Gonzales will have 80-75 to hit. (87-92 true hit.) Respectable but not great.

He'll have 100 hit against the two knights, 77-85 against the paladins, 99 against the pegasus riders, (And there are a lot) about 76 on the archers, etc. The only enemies where he'll be truly shaky is the whole two bishops, against whom he'll have 70 hit.

If you choose to sit back and see all of the reinforcements, there'll be 60 enemies, not including the boss, who he also has the chance to have WTA against. He'll have WTD against 10 of them, (9 cavalier reinforcements with steel swords, Gonzales will have 59-61 hit on them, plus the one axereaver) No WT involvement against 18 of them, (76-81 hit) and WTA on the remaining 32 enemies-Meaning that against against about 55% of the enemies, he'll have 121 hit(Before avoid comes into play, but he'll be in the high nineties against all of them.)

 

How about Ilia 18 with a Gonzales of the same level? (Bolded enemies mean that Gonzales ORKO's with an iron axe without needing two lucky hits.)

Spoiler

50 total enemies

10 against whom Gonzales will have WTD

(Gonzy won't look good against these guys-50~ hit)

17 with no weapon triangle involvement

(75-80 hit)

23 enemies with WTA

(83 at the very lowest, he'll have 95+ against the vast majority)

And you get the idea. Saying that Gonzales is irredeemably bad is false-He starts off very poorly but gets better, at least if you go to Ilia. He is much closer to irredeemably bad in Sacae, though. You deal with his trash hit rates for five levels, (or none on B route if you wanna go that way) he'll be fine in chapter 12 and Arcadia due to all of the wyverns, he'll be fine in 16 due to all of the knights and paladins, he's set for life in Ilia.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

he can't double ever

This is completely untrue. 10/1 Zeiss has 15* speed, good enough to double

  • Most mages in 16x
  • All Cavaliers in 16x
  • Knights (Wow, what an amazing achievement.)
  • All archers in 16x
  • One of the sages in 16x
  • Almost all cavaliers in 17I-A cavalier reinforcement has a chance to get 12 AS
  • All archers in 17I
  • All peg knights in 17I
  • Both bishops in 17I
  • All peg knights in 18I
  • All wyvern riders in 18I
  • All priests in 18I

And the list goes on from there. Things are tougher for him in Sacae, but he'll eventually be doubling and he can already double a scant few. Once he promotes, he'll also have swords for an accurate option against nomads. And even when he's not doubling, he's dealing a lot of damage.

*I had a small brain moment-He needs 12/1 to have 15 speed, but that changes very little aside from him potentially not doubling two more cavaliers in 17I and archers later on-And he'll be levelling up enough to stay ahead of the speed curve.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

you'd have to completely ignore the fact that Zeiss comes underleveled and late to say he's better, because that's a very, very, VERY damning flaw, and one I'm not so generous as to forgive.

Joining late is a flaw, needing three levels to promote and be fast enough to double the average enemy while also having 22 strength isn't much of one at all. He'd be a little better if he joined at level 10, but not by much. It is not hard to get him three levels because of his 19 strength. His stats are better than a level 7 unit's and only needs to promote to get the extra speed. 22/17 str/def on a 10/1 flier is nothing to scoff at. Those are really good stats for three levels and a promotion item. Zeiss does not require babying to make good. Besides, requiring babying to become good isn't an instant turnoff. Shanna requires a lot of it and she is one of the best units in the game.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Mountain walking is not very practical, either.

It's niche but helpful. 10/1 Gonzales can hold his own very well against the wyverns in ch. 21, which is something not a lot of units can say regardless of level. He doubles a good portion of them, will always have at least 30% chance of OHKO'ing unpromoted ones, (A killer axe can make this much, much higher) and will be really, really hard to hit-by my calculations, 10-12% displayed hit. (Wyvern lords w/105 to 103 hit, -40 for the peaks, -15 for WTA and -38 for Gonzales' avoid, for a total of 105-93)

Gonzales is not the only one who can do this, (Geese and Garret could as well) but any of them will wreak havoc if given the chance.

Edited by Benice
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Benice said:

Yep-And if you go to Sacae, you get one more decent prepromote bow user. Speaking of, are you using Shin?

Probably did, since Shanna's a bit like a Jagen and will eventually be outdone by Thea. Thea's bases are low-ish for her join time, though. If she isn't going well, it is probably a good idea to drop her.

If you're liking the look of Echidna, it's probably best on her, since she'll be needing it to use killer axes and whatnot. But yeah, giving it to anyone who needs it seems good.

You can always use both if you've got the deployment slots! More staffers is always nice. Plus, for mounted healers, Cecilia is a great option.

Yes I am using Shin this time since he gets HM stat bonuses. He's pretty much Sue only male, lol. Useful Nomad Trooper (Bow Knight), but I like bows in this game, so a sniper/archer is always a good addition also. 

I didn't exactly drop her, per-say. I mean, what I MEANT was I just took her out of my regular team and started using her as a filler unit. She's useful there. I am still a little perturbed my Thea has turned out badly in two playthroughs now, lol.

You see, I always make it a priority in most FE games to have at least 2 healers. It's always nice to have a backup in case, but this time I switched it since Ping recommended using only one since healing EXP was a bit lower in this game. I also have Lugh at a whopping B rank in staves from arena grinding, XD. Like you said though, Cecilia is a great option and I used her last time as well as this for a backup, and she does the job well. She lacks power and her growths are terrible, but she's decent. (at least for me)

5 hours ago, joevar said:

igrene does have better stat when joining. since you dont use clarine and thea, no need to use klein who can easily gain support from them

thea not turn out good? aww. i hate RNG stat. discussion

berserker always have hit harder. its just a matter if you want to play safe and make sure to whittle down enemy hp, or want to One Round KO enemy with chance for miss. pick your poison

also same as above thing, my promoted Dieck have average str, mediocre speed and okay-ish skill. so he's unreliable despite being hero, he takes almost as much dmg as he gives

there. same as thea discussion, but this time, Dieck sucks in my playthru. cant convince me otherwise since thats what happen.

Yeah, she hasn't turned out good for 2 playthroughs now. I've noticed in this FE I get really screwed with growths, lol. It's funny you mention your Dieck turning out bad because that's how mine has turned out this time around. You're experience with him is the same as mine, the thing is though as I'm experiencing the same thing with Echidna. Her or Dieck can't dodge and their damage output is pretty bad, Shanna does more damage than them and that's really bad. It's crazy too since Hero is one of the best classes in FE. 

I've actually gotten Gonzales to the point where he averages at about 80 hit vs. a lance user and about 74-75 hit vs an axe user. He hits about as often as my Lance or Perceval does, and that's really, really good for him. Of course I gave him a secret book, but his skill is naturally pretty high for him, oddly enough. Definitely weird how my units have turned out, lol.

6 hours ago, Fates-Blade said:

 

EDITED:

I already mentioned Dieck is one of the best units, but I think Oujay is too.

Again, can you explain how Rutger and Fir outclass Oujay. He can use Hand Axes, so 1-2 range, Rutger and Fir have no 1-2 options, Bows and magic will be a problem for them but not for Oujay, he also has good con, str, lck, def, HP, and supports. Also Karel is a Swordmaster that joins late, and can serve as a good replacement for Fir and Rutger, if needed.

Can you give an example of a better axe user than Gonzales?

Gonzales has solid growths, base stats, amazing con, good supports and becomes a Berserker which gives +30 Crit, and can go into mountains that gives +30 avoid.

Zeiss may be underleveled but Shanna or Thea can't compete with the def, str, hp, or Con that Zeiss has, and since the Killer Lance and Javelin are some of the best weapons in FE6 and Shanna (-5/-7 spd) and Thea (-4/-6 spd) can't wield them without significant speed lose, he is better. Especially because of his Str, Def and decent spd. Stats you need to beat the game, he may even have, if they all wielded Killer Lances or Javelins, equal Spd to Shanna and Thea or better if given Speedwings.

I'm saying all this for a no arena playthough of normal mode, hard mode might be different.

I agree with this. Gonzales is really good and not as inaccurate if you invest in him as people say. From personal experience he hits pretty often and dodges a lot. The thing about my experience with the Binding Blade is almost ALL units except Rutger have hitrate issues. I can't count how many times one of my paladins or falcon knights have missed TWICE in a row when they were above 80 hit with a weapon triangle advantage. (Like, seriously?? You have an 80% chance to hit twice and you MISS BOTH)  I haven't ran into that problem with Gonzales. 

Yes and I am playing HM

13 minutes ago, Benice said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

50 total enemies

10 against whom Gonzales will have WTD

(Gonzy won't look good against these guys-50~ hit)

17 with no weapon triangle involvement

(75-80 hit)

23 enemies with WTA

(83 at the very lowest, he'll have 95+ against the vast majority)

And you get the idea. Saying that Gonzales is irredeemably bad is false-He starts off very poorly but gets better, at least if you go to Ilia.

I agree with this. A lot of people want efficiency though and Gonzales needs all the babying he can get for a few levels... He's really worth it though if you get him there. (I'm kinda biased for axe users though so take my opinion with a grain of salt)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

anything that start poor but have chances to become great with lots of investment is generally viewed as bad. since theres big chance to be screwed by RNG lvl up.

3 hours ago, sinfonic18 said:

Definitely weird how my units have turned out, lol.

people say thats the charm, since there's randomness. but then the same group of people claim a unit bad because that unit turned out bad for them. almost every unit should be "assumed" a good one if randomness is good, since even wendy could turn out decent, what with her growth not 0%.(meaning theres a chance for growth, no matter how slim. and what if you keep hitting that, just like an enemy with 3~5 crit actually crit)

SMH...

 

3 hours ago, sinfonic18 said:

(Like, seriously?? You have an 80% chance to hit twice and you MISS BOTH)

search the internet. apparently some people explain that FE6 calculate random number generator using different method than later FE.  80 can miss a lot while below 50 can still happen regularly is something people readily accept when it comes to FE6. also that single digit crit from enemy. ugh..

Edited by joevar
Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, joevar said:

search the internet. apparently some people explain that FE6 calculate random number generator using different method than later FE.  80 can miss a lot while below 50 can still happen regularly is something people readily accept when it comes to FE6. also that single digit crit from enemy. ugh..

FE6 has functionally the same RNG as FE7-13. Roll two numbers, take the average, compare the average to the hitrate. There's technically a bug in FE6's RNG - there's a 1/1800 chance that it rolls a 100 even though the numbers are supposed to only go from 0 to 99 - but this makes absolutely no difference in practice because it's so rare and won't turn a hit into a miss a lot of the time. The reason why you see more misses in FE6 is that hitrates are lower, simple as that. Weapons are a little less accurate (not by a whole lot though) and enemies have actual stats, including a non-zero Luck stat, so their avoid is higher.

80 displayed hit is 92.2% true hit, so not hitting either of two 80s has a probability of 0.608% [ (1-0.922)² ] to happen, which is roughly a one in 160 chance. Very unlikely, but not absurd - for the DnD nerds out there, it's the same as rolling a 20 with a D20 followed by a 1 for damage on a D8. Bad luck, but you wouldn't assume that the dice are loaded just because of that.

(source for the 1/1800 thingy, an old-ish Mekkah video)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ping said:

FE6 has functionally the same RNG as FE7-13. Roll two numbers, take the average, compare the average to the hitrate. There's technically a bug in FE6's RNG - there's a 1/1800 chance that it rolls a 100 even though the numbers are supposed to only go from 0 to 99 - but this makes absolutely no difference in practice because it's so rare and won't turn a hit into a miss a lot of the time. The reason why you see more misses in FE6 is that hitrates are lower, simple as that. Weapons are a little less accurate (not by a whole lot though) and enemies have actual stats, including a non-zero Luck stat, so their avoid is higher.

80 displayed hit is 92.2% true hit, so not hitting either of two 80s has a probability of 0.608% [ (1-0.922)² ] to happen, which is roughly a one in 160 chance. Very unlikely, but not absurd - for the DnD nerds out there, it's the same as rolling a 20 with a D20 followed by a 1 for damage on a D8. Bad luck, but you wouldn't assume that the dice are loaded just because of that.

(source for the 1/1800 thingy, an old-ish Mekkah video)

oh, ok thanks for the info. im just repeating what some people said very2 long ago, not just 2-3 year ago. it turns out false assumption then.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you baby Shanna for 4-5 chapters, she turns into a great unit that will assist from ch7 onwards and when promoted is arguably your best unit in the western isles. Zeiss isn't worth the babying since you already have 3 promoted, effective fliers at their job. I usually find that any more then three fliers is just overkill, in  Ilia three fliers easily completes all the objectives. In Sacae, you are probably cutting down on the fliers you deploy as all enemies have at least 15 might weapons against them without the delphi shield, which is going on Melady for sure. She has the best combat out of any flier, and giving her the delphi shield makes her unkillable again. This means that unless it's a map where you really want another flier for another objective in Sacae, which I can't think of off the top of my head, Melady's probably the only flier getting deployed in Sacae. Let's not even mention the fact that if you go Sacae, you don't get another Elysian whip, and if you go Ilia, you only get one in ch 20, and that needs a precious warp use. You can buy one in the secret shop in ch 16, but those are expensive and I'd rather have a pair of boots then another flier.

8 hours ago, sinfonic18 said:

I agree with this. Gonzales is really good and not as inaccurate if you invest in him as people say

I somewhat agree with this. Gonzales usually has around 60-70% hit displayed before promo in the western isles, on hard mode at least with an iron axe. He doubles most things, which most axe users will never see, and deals good damage. His promo to berserker and the fact that so many enemies use lances in later parts of the game also boost his accuracy to reliable standards, getting close to displayed 80's. Gonzales also doubles lots of things and deals large amounts of damage, and even if he misses an attack he still has a 30% chance to oneshot anyway.

15 hours ago, Fates-Blade said:

He can use Hand Axes, so 1-2 range

1-2 range that has terrible accuracy and weighs him down by three points of speed. Not to mention it's not killing anything on EP, cause FE6 enemies actually have stats. This is a valid argument in FE7 and 8, but not in 6, where lack of 1-2 range is not a very damming thing, especially with swords and bows actually being good.

15 hours ago, Fates-Blade said:

he also has good con, str, lck, def, HP, and supports. Also Karel is a Swordmaster that joins late,

Oujay's con is about the same as Rutgers, and Rutger has around the same hp, defense, and just barely less str, but a lot more avoid, so he is more durable then Oujay. Rutger will still kill more because +30 crit.

Karel joins with two chapters left in the game. Rutger joins with amazing base stats and growths 25 chapters earlier.

15 hours ago, Fates-Blade said:

Especially because of his Str, Def and decent spd. Stats you need to beat the game, he may even have, if they all wielded Killer Lances or Javelins, equal Spd to Shanna and Thea or better if given Speedwings.

I'm saying all this for a no arena playthough of normal mode, hard mode might be different.

Even on hard mode, with a killer lance/javelin, Shanna and Tate still fly circles around him. The next speedwing you get is 5 chapters later, and that's half the game that Zeiss is available for. Shanna and Tate need no speedwings to double, and still kill things with Killer lances, which you can buy a lot of in 14. Shanna is also available for 15 chapters that Zeiss isn't there for, even more if you include gaidens which also improve Shanna's utility even better.  all of the gaidens Shanna is amazing in, with the exception of 20x Sacae. Zeiss has terrible aid for a flier, and Zeiss's speed really is a fallout for him, as at 10/1 he has around 14 speed, which is ok at that point, but isn't going to cut it in Ilia against mercs and Falcoknights, and most things actually double him in Sacae, which, without the delphi shield, means he's getting two-rounded. Melady is getting the delphi shield like I said earlier, so Zeiss will be completely useless in Sacae and will most likely see no use. After those, 14 speed in 21 isn't doubling wyverns, he needs round 16 speed, which is 5 more levels away for him, but I will concede the speedwing fixes that. and he wants way more speed if he wants a chance at doubling wyvern lords, which are really where he would shine above Shanna or Tate. But he doesn't, and Shanna/Tate will actually do more damage to a wyvern lord on average then Zeiss will, thanks to doubling with killer lances.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Hello72207 said:

1-2 range that has terrible accuracy and weighs him down by three points of speed. Not to mention it's not killing anything on EP, cause FE6 enemies actually have stats. This is a valid argument in FE7 and 8, but not in 6, where lack of 1-2 range is not a very damming thing, especially with swords and bows actually being good.

Oujay's con is about the same as Rutgers, and Rutger has around the same hp, defense, and just barely less str, but a lot more avoid, so he is more durable then Oujay. Rutger will still kill more because +30 crit.

Karel joins with two chapters left in the game. Rutger joins with amazing base stats and growths 25 chapters earlier.

Even on hard mode, with a killer lance/javelin, Shanna and Tate still fly circles around him. The next speedwing you get is 5 chapters later, and that's half the game that Zeiss is available for. Shanna and Tate need no speedwings to double, and still kill things with Killer lances, which you can buy a lot of in 14. Shanna is also available for 15 chapters that Zeiss isn't there for, even more if you include gaidens which also improve Shanna's utility even better.  all of the gaidens Shanna is amazing in, with the exception of 20x Sacae. Zeiss has terrible aid for a flier, and Zeiss's speed really is a fallout for him, as at 10/1 he has around 14 speed, which is ok at that point, but isn't going to cut it in Ilia against mercs and Falcoknights, and most things actually double him in Sacae, which, without the delphi shield, means he's getting two-rounded. Melady is getting the delphi shield like I said earlier, so Zeiss will be completely useless in Sacae and will most likely see no use. After those, 14 speed in 21 isn't doubling wyverns, he needs round 16 speed, which is 5 more levels away for him, but I will concede the speedwing fixes that. and he wants way more speed if he wants a chance at doubling wyvern lords, which are really where he would shine above Shanna or Tate. But he doesn't, and Shanna/Tate will actually do more damage to a wyvern lord on average then Zeiss will, thanks to doubling with killer lances.

If 1-2 range isn't important in FE6 than I can agree Rutger and Fir are better than Oujay, even more so since Echidna can join and use hand axes and Rutger and Fir get hard mode bonuses.

By chapter 15-16 my not promoted Shanna at level 17 (even with +5 to all her growth rates through a hack) is a terrible fighter and my Thea hasn't been able to level up since she joined and started falling behind at the desert chapter and at that point I decided to not use her. Especially since her HP, str, def, and con are lower than Zeiss.

I assume Thea and Shanna could be very good if you gave them plenty of EXP, but the reason they didn't level up with me is because what little chances they had to level up I gave mostly to Lugh, Raigh, Lance, Alen, Fir, Rutger, and Dieck over them who I definitely consider superior units who deserve the EXP far more than them.

So basically, by the time Zeiss joins Thea would be around his level considering the EXP you could give her would be given to the units I've mentioned, but even if she had some level ups, maybe 4, she couldn't beat Zeiss's base HP, Str, Def, and Con.

Shanna and Thea's low def HP con and particularly Str so they can barely kill any enemy is what holds them back IMO, to make matters worse Shanna has a low growth rate chance of getting Str, to make matters even more worse Shanna has no hard mode bonuses.

Edited by Fates-Blade
Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, Fates-Blade said:

By chapter 15-16 my not promoted Shanna at level 17

This is your problem. Shanna is at her best when promoted round 8x, as swords for the western isles, flying, and decent combat makes her pretty much your best unit for those chapters, and flier utility and killer lances nullifies her str as she can kiill with a hit and a crit.

34 minutes ago, Fates-Blade said:

my Thea hasn't been able to level up since she joined and started falling behind at the desert chapter and at that point I decided to not use her.

How? Thea has ch 12x, a literal training chapter, to get levels in, 13 has cavs that can be fed to her, and 14, she's doing so much that she can get levels, or be promoted and use swords against brigands.

36 minutes ago, Fates-Blade said:

but even if she had some level ups, maybe 4

4 level ups in eight chapters is a little slow. Any unit that's not a prepromote trained at that rate will fall off, if you are only giving them a level every two chapters in midgame.

37 minutes ago, Fates-Blade said:

gave mostly to Lugh, Raigh, Lance, Alen, Fir, Rutger, and Dieck over them who I definitely consider superior units who deserve the EXP far more than them.

Lugh is considered worse for a few reasons, one of which are his terrible bases, poor durability (he gets oneshot in chapter 5 in HM), and lack of a mount.

Raigh has some speed problems, a class with a lot of competition for promo, and poor bases.

Lance and Alen don't have wings, and one of them can't even promote till ch 16's start.

Fir's basically a worse Rutger, she's still very good but she comes later, with worse bases, and she takes time to train if you want to use her. 

Rutger is one of three units who I would argue better then Shanna maybe. His good earlygame combat, bosslaying skills, and good class makes him a godly unit.

Dieck has speed problems later, and has to wait for the second hero crest, but is a solid unit. Lack of mount and falling off in the midgame without godly combat earlygame lowers him.

Shanna has availability, wings, stats that get the job done while not needing babying and actually fairly good combat. She's considered one of the four best units in the game for me, and completely changes how I play the game, in a positive way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, Fates-Blade said:

By chapter 15-16 my not promoted Shanna at level 17 (even with +5 to all her growth rates through a hack) is a terrible fighter and my Thea hasn't been able to level up since she joined and started falling behind at the desert chapter and at that point I decided to not use her. Especially since her HP, str, def, and con are lower than Zeiss.

I assume Thea and Shanna could be very good if you gave them plenty of EXP, but the reason they didn't level up with me is because what little chances they had to level up I gave mostly to Lugh, Raigh, Lance, Alen, Fir, Rutger, and Dieck over them who I definitely consider superior units who deserve the EXP far more than them.

That's a bit of a circular argument. You gave less attention to Shanna because she doesn't deserve the XP, which resulted in an underleveled Shanna, who subsequently underperformed in the midgame, which you bring up as evidence that she doesn't deserve XP.

Shanna at Lv. 17 unpromoted for ch.15/16 is not representive for her no matter how use her. By this point in the game, you want most of your units to be promoted, even if you only promote at Lv.20 - the promo items in ch.16 are usually considered not that great not only because of the gold cost, but also because a unit promoted with them will lag behind the units that were promoted earlier. Heck, a lot of players won't use Perceval's Knight Crest on their second cav because by the time you get it, you don't really get that much out of that promotion.

--

Since this isn't a topic about tier lists (for the record: Milady > Shanna >> Tate > Zeiss, if it was) - all four of the unpromoted flyers are recommendable to use. Milady is the only one with actually outstanding combat, but since FE6 tends to have big maps with a lot of terrain, it's absolutely worth to put up with their downsides in exchange for their great mobility. And really, even though the other three need a little help to get rolling, none of them are bad at fighting as long as you're being a little careful who you pit them against.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Hello72207 said:

In Sacae, you are probably cutting down on the fliers you deploy as all enemies have at least 15 might weapons against them without the delphi shield, which is going on Melady for sure. She has the best combat out of any flier, and giving her the delphi shield makes her unkillable again. This means that unless it's a map where you really want another flier for another objective in Sacae, which I can't think of off the top of my head, Melady's probably the only flier getting deployed in Sacae.

[...]

most things actually double him in Sacae, which, without the delphi shield, means he's getting two-rounded

Not really true; 20/1 Milady has 19-20 defense, (Arbitrarily leveled her like that, but she should be somewhere close to that in terms of amount of levels) meaning without the Delphi shield, she'll be taking 6-8 damage per nomad, 10/1 zeiss will be taking about the same. (Minus one or two points) He won't double, but he's not going to get doubled either. You can give the Delphi shield to Milady and let her do as she pleases and Zeiss can still manage quite well without it. Nomad troopers will put a decent punch into either of them and both of them will double Zeiss, (17S) but he survives a round against them and can still last another one to two nomads. All in all, he should be able to survive 4 rounds at the very least and up to five. Unpromoted Zeiss won't fare quite so well, but he'll still be reasonable. He won't be doubled when he's not weighed down, once he's 12/0, he won't get doubled by unpromoted enemies at all, so he is stilll useable if you wanna get him to a higher level before promotion.

Thea needs to be 18/9 to double nomads with a javelin, (which is really a lot, 18 levels in eight chapters) takes 16-18 damage a pop, meaning that she can only survive two nomads. She'll ORKO some of them, but where she can go is heavily restricted. Troopers deal 19 damage, and she'll be taking about that much from the ballistae on this map as well. The wyvern riders will have low hit rates aginst Thea but will deal another 20-ish damage a go if they hit. In return, she won't ORKO unless she's using effective weaponry, and she really shouldn't have a C in swords for Wyrmslayers yet. (And I don't recall there being a dragonspear in this game? Do correct me if I am wrong.) Zeiss ORKO's with a steel lance, killer lance, etc.

Tate has an edge on him for promoted enemies, Zeiss has an edge for almost everything else. His support with Milady is also kinda nice-more crit, crit avoid, hit and at A support, (which they won't have for quite some time)  an extra point of defense.

1 hour ago, Hello72207 said:

Even on hard mode, with a killer lance/javelin, Shanna and Tate still fly circles around him.

Thea still takes quite a lot of effort to get rolling for not a massive payoff. At base, she has the same speed as Zeiss does with an iron lance and her strength isn't high enough to do anything with slim lances. To start doubling with anything not named the slim lance, plus she'll be facing WTA against everything for another chapter, so she isn't too easy to train there. She'll double most of the fighters, (5/8) and might double the archers/shamans at base. She's in an awkward spot where the units she can actually easily double (Fighters, armor knights) are the ones that she'll either have shaky hit rates against or won't damage. Early promotion isn't too much of an option for Thea, since her 10/1 stats simply don't cut it. The next chapter, you get Milady, who will instantly be much better than her and makes her look bad. Capped speed Tate (18/12) is only two points of speed faster than capped speed Zeiss (15/12) when they're both using Killer Lances. Zeiss also will be able to OHKO wyvern lords with Maltet as early as 10/3. Tate can as well, but that requires level 18/20. Maltet also brings Tate down to Zeiss speed levels either way. At 20/20, Tate will barely survive two wyvern lords or four wyvern riders. 10/15 Zeiss will two-to-three, but will survive two quite easily. As for unpromoted wyverns, he takes just nine damage per wyvern, so he takes six hits. If he has Maltet equipped, he survives three wyverns and comes close to surviving four. He also shrugs off wyvern riders easily, requiring thirteen blows. 20/20 Tate still only survives two wyvern lords and six regular wyverns.

As for killer lances: Unless Tate is 20/19 or higher, she'll deal about 30-33 damage per crit, allowing up to 66 damage per round. Zeiss deals 54 with one crit, (And if he was raised a lot, he will double and won't need to double crit to ORKO. Unless Thea double crits, she won't out damage him and won't ORkO either way if she's going aganst a particularly bulky wyvern lord. 

Zeiss is better than Thea at some things and worse than her in others; I feel that the lower required effort to get him to promote and instantly have a contributing unit with 22 strength/17 defense is worthy of use.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

EDITED

3 hours ago, ping said:

That's a bit of a circular argument. You gave less attention to Shanna because she doesn't deserve the XP, which resulted in an underleveled Shanna, who subsequently underperformed in the midgame, which you bring up as evidence that she doesn't deserve XP.

Shanna at Lv. 17 unpromoted for ch.15/16 is not representive for her no matter how use her. By this point in the game, you want most of your units to be promoted, even if you only promote at Lv.20 - the promo items in ch.16 are usually considered not that great not only because of the gold cost, but also because a unit promoted with them will lag behind the units that were promoted earlier. Heck, a lot of players won't use Perceval's Knight Crest on their second cav because by the time you get it, you don't really get that much out of that promotion.

No I didn't I actually babied her, I was really hoping I could make Shanna and Thea powerful then give Juno stat boosting items so they could use their triangle attack and supports to be even better but they, unfortunately, just aren't worth it.

Also I am considering promoting Shanna at ch 15 particularly because more promoted enemys are appearing but again with Melady having joined I don't think it's worth it.

As for how promoted units can be better than unpromoted from early to mid game, I don't think that's possible: https://forums.serenesforest.net/index.php?/topic/83719-what-is-generally-the-best-time-to-promote/&do=findComment&comment=5263059

A unit can barely level up if they're promoted early on.

Shanna is a good unit in my save but she just isn't worth making any better IMO, especially since I have Melady and Zeiss is joining soon who I don't plan to use since Perceval can do his job and more so to speak but they are the best fliers IMO.

3 hours ago, Hello72207 said:

This is your problem. Shanna is at her best when promoted round 8x, as swords for the western isles, flying, and decent combat makes her pretty much your best unit for those chapters, and flier utility and killer lances nullifies her str as she can kiill with a hit and a crit.

How? Thea has ch 12x, a literal training chapter, to get levels in, 13 has cavs that can be fed to her, and 14, she's doing so much that she can get levels, or be promoted and use swords against brigands.

4 level ups in eight chapters is a little slow. Any unit that's not a prepromote trained at that rate will fall off, if you are only giving them a level every two chapters in midgame.

Well we've arrived again at one of my biggest issues with FE: why promote early?

You can gain a lot more EXP with a unit if not promoted then if promoted.

Basically, you have a LOT less level ups if you promote your unit early because every unpromoted enemy will give 1-5 exp per kil,

and at that rate you could basically never gain a level up, unless the unit killed promoted units which are very rare early on.

So how could you make Shanna or Thea good when promoted if the unpromoted enemies give very little EXP? Like 6 EXP per kill? https://forums.serenesforest.net/index.php?/topic/83719-what-is-generally-the-best-time-to-promote/&do=findComment&comment=5263059

ALSO you essentially steal EXP an unpromoted unit could use or really need if you promote too early and kill enemies with that promoted unit.

As for Thea's level, CH 12x has brigands with axes and hand axes, and a boss with a Silver Axe so it is disadvantageous to use lance units. Also it seemed better to give some sword users like Rutger, Fir, Oujay, Lugh, Raigh, Alen, and Lance EXP unless I wanted to risk a restart, as for CH13 the Wyvern Riders, Cavaliers, and Paladins were too much for my Shanna and Thea they could barely damage them. We remember, Shanna and Thea have low HP, str, def and con, and those enemy classes have high HP, str, def and con, then we have the desert chapter where enemy Wyvern lords, Wyvern Riders, Hero's, very powerful Mercenaries Brigands and  Berserkers are Thea can barely damage any of them and may be doubled by them.

However, even if I leveled up Thea in those chapters we have to remember she has an okay chance for def and str, and low con.

After the desert chapter I considered her generally not worth putting effort into.

Edited by Fates-Blade
Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Fates-Blade said:

Well we've arrived again at one of my biggest issues with FE: why promote early?

If Shanna promotes early, she gains access to swords and therefore can be superb on the western isles. She'll probably be your best unit there. She'll fall off later, but she's superb for the time she has to be. Promoting early provides instant stat boosts and in many cases, more abilities, such as more weapon types, crit rates and more movement. Rutger is another unit best to earlypromote, since he'll ORKO everything for a really, really long time, (possibly even at endgame) as opposed to not ORKO'ing for a lot longer. There are great short-term bonuses that sometimes are good enough for a whole game.

Edited by Benice
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Benice said:

If Shanna promotes early, she gains access to swords and therefore can be superb on the western isles. She'll probably be your best unit there. She'll fall off later, but she's superb for the time she has to be. Promoting early provides instant stat boosts and in many cases, more abilities, such as more weapon types, crit rates and more movement. Rutger is another unit best to earlypromote, since he'll ORKO everything for a really, really long time, (possibly even at endgame) as opposed to not ORKO'ing for a lot longer. There are great short-term bonuses that sometimes are good enough for a whole game.

However, if a promoted unit is killing unpromoted enemies you are losing EXP that can easily go to unpromoted ally units.

For example unpromoted Rutger, Lugh, Lilina, Fir, Alen, or Lance getting the EXP instead of promoted Shanna or Rutger.

Edited by Fates-Blade
Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, Fates-Blade said:

However, if a promoted unit is killing unpromoted enemies you are losing EXP that can easily go to unpromoted ally units.

Thing is, other than in a ranked run, exp distribution doesn't matter so much. Plus, if I have a unit who is already promoted, like Rutger, for example, I don't have to give them as much exp-they have what they need already. I can give more kills to my other growth units as opposed to splitting it up more to feed yet another growth unit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...