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SRPG Tryhard

Theme of Conquest

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The game is genius in its symbolism. It's a pity it flew over so many people's heads. 

The reason Takumi is the final boss is because the true evil is hate and Takumi represents just that. What pushed people to war in Fates was not Garon but their hate. Even when Corrin refuses to follow Garon's orders to kill the prisoners of war they literally ask to be killed themselves. They hate you so much that they prefer to die than be your prisoner. Some even commit suicide.

This is why war happens in Fates. There is no such evil thing as fighting a war. Hate is the only thing that's evil.

Three houses also followed up on that theme in AM and CF. Hubert's input on that was genius: "When I was a child, I feared such trivial things as divine punishment and grudges held by the dead. These days, I fear zealots and grudges held by the living instead."

Continuing from the last thread, I want to hear others' opinion on this. What do you think about my interpretation? 

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The symbolism may be great. But I think you're overlooking the all the flaws.

I'm not about to start another raging debate, so this is the only comment of mine you'll see here.

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1 hour ago, L3xandr3 said:

The symbolism may be great. But I think you're overlooking the all the flaws.

I'm not about to start another raging debate, so this is the only comment of mine you'll see here.

There's no overlooking any of the minor flaws. Most of them have been debunked as myths or misunderstood by people who didn't try hard enough to understand the game anyway. But the game still is brilliant. Not sure why those "flaws" are relevant to the topic of its theme though. 

Unless you mean to say this theme I am trying to decipher is what you call a flaw because you dislike it? Go on.

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'debunked'. Sure.

My opinion is that the concept is great, but the execution is anything but.

I'll not argue the point further. You have your opinion, and I've mine.

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9 minutes ago, L3xandr3 said:

'debunked'. Sure.

My opinion is that the concept is great, but the execution is anything but.

I'll not argue the point further. You have your opinion, and I've mine.

Yeah, they have been debunked, many in the last thread too. The issues people have with the execution is just that usually.

So the "flaws" you mention aren't relevant at all to what I said on the OP? 

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It's possible to have a good theme and utterly shitty implementation.

And it's also possible to accept that as an interpretation if I completely absolve Garon of his actions for whatever reason.

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I disagree, I feel like looking at each of Fates’s routes individually as standalone stories is missing the point. Fates’s story I feel works best when each path is viewed simply as a single piece in a larger overarching narrative. Fates is a story about trust, deception, and individual choices. How conquest specifically fits into that theme is pretty simple. A lot of the elements of conquest are supposed to contrast birthright. It’s a story about overcoming blind trust out of obligation. This can be seen with characters like Xander who’s whole arc is being able to accept the fact that the thing he’s taking orders from is not his father and if he truly wants to protect Nohr he needs to stand up to him. He feels obligated to follow Garon because he is his father but the story considers this wrong. Xander needs to learn to think for himself and not blindly follow a man who clearly does not care for him. 
 

Takumi, specifically, is a character who feels obligated to hate Corrin because they are from Nohr. He wanted to accept them this whole time but he felt he couldn’t out of obligation due to what happened to his father but as we learn at the end of conquest that’s not how he truly feels. The tragedy comes from the fact those negative feelings consume him to the point where he is not himself anymore. He refuses to shake off that obligation and refuses to trust Corrin until well it’s too late. He feels bound by obligation and legacy similar to Xander and that flaw is what leads to his death in the end. There are plenty more examples of this sort of thing within the story but those are the most prominent ones.

Edited by Ottservia

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18 minutes ago, eclipse said:

It's possible to have a good theme and utterly shitty implementation.

And it's also possible to accept that as an interpretation if I completely absolve Garon of his actions for whatever reason.

Garon is a slime not a character. Did you miss that part eclipse?

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1 minute ago, SRPG Tryhard said:

Garon is a slime not a character. Did you miss that part eclipse?

. . .I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not in the first sentence.

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Just now, eclipse said:

. . .I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not in the first sentence.

You tell me eclipse. I don't think anyone ever said about three houses: "the demonic beasts are evil".

Your "Garon" is a tool of the manipulator with an extremely transparent evilness that our characters are either unable to face or refusing to acknowledge because of their disposition. This is tragic. And it is meaningful when considered with what I said earlier about the "true evil" that is holding back the world in Fates.

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Just now, SRPG Tryhard said:

You tell me eclipse. I don't think anyone ever said about three houses: "the demonic beasts are evil".

Your "Garon" is a tool of the manipulator with an extremely transparent evilness that our characters are either unable to face or refusing to acknowledge because of their disposition. This is tragic. And it is meaningful when considered with what I said earlier about the "true evil" that is holding back the world in Fates.

Do 3H's demonic beasts have free will?  I'm pretty sure Garon does, which is why I hold him responsible for his actions.

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10 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Do 3H's demonic beasts have free will?  I'm pretty sure Garon does, which is why I hold him responsible for his actions.

I never tried to say Garon is an agent of "good". Why are you arguing against a strawman? Or are you saying the game is bad because he exists? Did you say the same about Gharnef, Manfroy, Jedah, Veld, the Senators, Valibar, the Slithers, and their respective games? Do they have free will? Or do they not count? Do we hate all of FE because the "manipulator" has been a staple since the first entry?

That's not my point.

Did you read my original post? Are you following at all?

Garon is not the real cause of everything bad happening in Fates. He is not the final boss in Conquest subverting the expectations with how it is set up throughout the campaign. In Revelations he is not even fought at all, he is irrelevant.

Edited by SRPG Tryhard

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12 minutes ago, SRPG Tryhard said:

Garon is not the real cause of everything bad happening in Fates. He is not the final boss in Conquest despite how it is set up throughout the campaign. In Revelations he is not even fought at all, he is irrelevant.

Just to throw my hat into the ring real quick, Garon literally instigated against Hoshido multiple times. Kidnapping Corrin is one of the first notable offenses, which came right after killing the King of Hoshido, funnily enough. He then used Corrin years later to send in a demon sword that killed his mom, which means that Garon killed both the King and Queen of Hoshido. I don't know what hate he has in his actions here besides being a goofily evil villain that 's evil just for the sake of it. As far as I know, he doesn't have any reasons to "hate" Hoshido besides them being a rival nation and wanting to expand his kingdom. Or maybe he's a racist, I dunno.

Even if he was some kind of slime monster the whole time, that slime monster was a huge reason for how and why the story took place. Even if he's not the cause of everything bad happening, he's still responsible for a decent portion of bad things. Agents working with a greater power are just as responsible for their actions as that greater power is for giving the agents the authority to carry out those actions.

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4 hours ago, SRPG Tryhard said:

What do you think about my interpretation? 

I agree that Conquest does have a theme of hate, but I think the main theme is Faith/Trust.

 

4 hours ago, SRPG Tryhard said:

This is why war happens in Fates. There is no such evil thing as fighting a war. Hate is the only thing that's evil.

Well a war can be fought for good (to secure possesions, stay alive, or defend,) or evil (to steal, kill, and destroy) so I think a war can be good or evil, hate is always wrong though. War should've never happened, they could have just bought or traded for the land or food they needed.

 

1 hour ago, SRPG Tryhard said:

That's not my point.

Did you read my original post? Are you following at all?

Can you give a word of warning if your going to be blunt? It might offend people. (I know.)

 

1 hour ago, SRPG Tryhard said:

In Revelations he is not even fought at all, he is irrelevant.

Don't forget Anankos had to take back power given to him, but other than that yeah you're right Hoshido and Nohr aren't shown doing anything while you're in Valla.

  

32 minutes ago, indigoasis said:

Just to throw my hat into the ring real quick, Garon literally instigated against Hoshido multiple times. Kidnapping Corrin is one of the first notable offenses, which came right after killing the King of Hoshido, funnily enough. He then used Corrin years later to send in a demon sword that killed his mom, which means that Garon killed both the King and Queen of Hoshido. I don't know what hate he has in his actions here besides being a goofily evil villain that 's evil just for the sake of it. As far as I know, he doesn't have any reasons to "hate" Hoshido besides them being a rival nation and wanting to expand his kingdom. Or maybe he's a racist, I dunno.

Even if he was some kind of slime monster the whole time, that slime monster was a huge reason for how and why the story took place. Even if he's not the cause of everything bad happening, he's still responsible for a decent portion of bad things. Agents working with a greater power are just as responsible for their actions as that greater power is for giving the agents the authority to carry out those actions.

True.

Edited by Fates-Blade

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1 hour ago, eclipse said:

Do 3H's demonic beasts have free will?  I'm pretty sure Garon does, which is why I hold him responsible for his actions.

No he doesn't, a demon took control of his body before the events of the story "Ever since that moment...I became something... Something... ..." - Garon at Birthright's ndgame. He's still alive though, this is symbolised by him never shown being on fire I guess?

Considering he says he'll destroy Nohr and Hoshido in Revelations and that's what Anankos wants, it could have been Anankos that possesed Garon or it could be a spirit that serves Anankos it's not known what did, but he was possesed by a demon before the events of the story.

Edited by Fates-Blade

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3 hours ago, SRPG Tryhard said:

They hate you so much that they prefer to die than be your prisoner. Some even commit suicide.

If Hoshido was not supposed to be fantasy Japan that might hold water. The Japanese had a long standing cultural tradition of discouraging their soldiers from surrendering. From the tenets of bushido to the Senjinkun code in WW2, the Japanese have traditionally been indoctrinated to view suicide as more honorable, and favorable to capture, or surrender. This has been backed up by the cruel treatment of prisoners in Japanese history, from surrendering generals being buried up to their necks and trampled to death by the victorious army, to the more mundane torture and beheading of the average soldier who surrenders. This isn't about hatred, its about culture. If we saw this suicide before surrender behavior in the more western inspired Nohrians I might agree with you, but as we see with Zola's capture, we don't.

Beyond Takumi being an asshat, I don't see much evidence for this view of Conquest as a symbol for hatred being the real enemy.

23 minutes ago, Fates-Blade said:

No he doesn't he's a demon, the human 'Garon' died before the events of the story.

The slime Garon both has lines, and emotes even after he is revealed, and as his brief interaction with Anankos in Revelations shows, he isn't just a vessel for the Silent Dragon, Slime Garon is a character with free will, albeit a different one from the original Garon.

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18 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

The slime Garon both has lines, and emotes even after he is revealed, and as his brief interaction with Anankos in Revelations shows, he isn't just a vessel for the Silent Dragon, Slime Garon is a character with free will, albeit a different one from the original Garon.

I never said he was "just a vessel for the Silent Dragon," just that the human Garon can't control his own body because demon Garon is in control, and yeah you are absolutely right that demon Garon has a free will. So I guess that confirms Anankos isn't the demon that possessed him? I don't know, because if it was I would think demon Garon wouldn't have a free will and would be on fire all the time like Takumi is at EG of Conquest.

But since Fates's story seems IMO halfheartedly finished we don't know for sure, these are just theories. Also Slime Garon LOL.🤣

Edited by Fates-Blade

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2 hours ago, eclipse said:

Do 3H's demonic beasts have free will?  I'm pretty sure Garon does, which is why I hold him responsible for his actions.

Ehh I’d disagree. The story of conquest(and even birthright to an extent) goes to great lengths to hammer home that the thing you kill at the end of Birthright and Conquest is not Garon and hasn’t been Garon for quite some time. He’s merely a puppet of Anankos who is true mastermind behind it all. It’s not that Garon isn’t to blame it’s Anankos is the one you should be going after not Garon.

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3 hours ago, SRPG Tryhard said:

I never tried to say Garon is an agent of "good". Why are you arguing against a strawman? Or are you saying the game is bad because he exists? Did you say the same about Gharnef, Manfroy, Jedah, Veld, the Senators, Valibar, the Slithers, and their respective games? Do they have free will? Or do they not count? Do we hate all of FE because the "manipulator" has been a staple since the first entry?

That's not my point.

Did you read my original post? Are you following at all?

Garon is not the real cause of everything bad happening in Fates. He is not the final boss in Conquest subverting the expectations with how it is set up throughout the campaign. In Revelations he is not even fought at all, he is irrelevant.

If you're going to interpret my stuff in such a wildly dishonest way, I'm not going to bother with the rest of what you wrote.

2 hours ago, Fates-Blade said:

No he doesn't, a demon took control of his body before the events of the story "Ever since that moment...I became something... Something... ..." - Garon at Birthright's ndgame. He's still alive though, this is symbolised by him never shown being on fire I guess?

Considering he says he'll destroy Nohr and Hoshido in Revelations and that's what Anankos wants, it could have been Anankos that possesed Garon or it could be a spirit that serves Anankos it's not known what did, but he was possesed by a demon before the events of the story.

 

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

Ehh I’d disagree. The story of conquest(and even birthright to an extent) goes to great lengths to hammer home that the thing you kill at the end of Birthright and Conquest is not Garon and hasn’t been Garon for quite some time. He’s merely a puppet of Anankos who is true mastermind behind it all. It’s not that Garon isn’t to blame it’s Anankos is the one you should be going after not Garon.

Revelation disagrees.  While neither is Conquest, my best guess is that Anankos basically ignored Garon in Birthright and didn't in Revelation.  Regardless, neither of these show a loss of agency by him, which is why I'm holding Garon accountable for all that he's done.

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7 hours ago, SRPG Tryhard said:

Continuing from the last thread, I want to hear others' opinion on this.

you did not seriously just copy and paste your shitty analysis post, from the thread i locked, to spark literally the same discussion, to get around the lock, did you

 

like my eyes are deceiving me right

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8 minutes ago, Integrity said:

you did not seriously just copy and paste your shitty analysis post, from the thread i locked, to spark literally the same discussion, to get around the lock, did you

 

like my eyes are deceiving me right

It's the same deal, unfortunately...Except an different guy is starting the thread.

It's kind of hilarious on how angry you guys get, in a way.

Edited by Armchair General

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21 minutes ago, Armchair General said:

It's kind of hilarious on how angry you guys get, in a way.

precisely which 'you guys' are you referring to, again

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If you think FE14 having a theme is mindblowing, I can't wait until you read a novel or watch a film.

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7 minutes ago, Integrity said:

precisely which 'you guys' are you referring to, again

Whoever devotes enough energy to argue over the plot. Granted, the story deserves to be analyzed, but I'm in the "seen it all" crowd and I'm in my 20s.

Edited by Armchair General

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