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SRPG Tryhard

Theme of Conquest

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20 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

I'm not gonna bother this time but I will say again, since I got ignored... big surprise.

A game's story being liked by one person does not automatically make it "perfect". That's absurd in so many ways I cant even begin to describe it. 

That also doesnt "prove" anything either.

It doesn't matter how many people share an opinion or not. This point of view has been argued based on what is shown in the game and its detractors have been shown a few times to contradict or are ignorant of what is happening in the game, such as not understanding that Garon is a slime who just does Anankos's bidding to destroy Nohr and Hoshido. So this point of view still stands as valid.

And we all just saw what happens when you hold that opinion as Integrity's insults just showed to everyone.

If you have to say something on topic do that instead of containing that someone is disagreeing with you.

Edited by SRPG Tryhard

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16 minutes ago, Yexin said:

now this is some hardcore trolling

They actually opened the OP with "if you don't agree, it's because you're too dumb" :lol: Great sign of good faith, that is.

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5 minutes ago, ping said:

They actually opened the OP with "if you don't agree, it's because you're too dumb" :lol: Great sign of good faith, that is.

I don't think I did. Check again.

Remember: people disagreeing with you does not make them bad. It's your own problem to deal with.

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Huh i didn't expet this to happen to the Holy Forest in my two months of joining in but events happen every day i suppose ( idk what SRPG Tryhard point is but agree to disagree is what i think a lots of people aren't getting.)

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12 minutes ago, nedya said:

Huh i didn't expet this to happen to the Holy Forest in my two months of joining in but events happen every day i suppose ( idk what SRPG Tryhard point is but agree to disagree is what i think a lots of people aren't getting.)

The problem I think is that the theme of Conquest directly challenges the preconceptions that are set up in FE about the enemy being evil and the player being the hero. Or about "just" wars. So it's not just about me but the game itself. If they say "you may have a point" then they would have to deal with those questions that I bring up that the game is asking us. And they definitely don't want that.

The only other video game I can think of that challenged players like this and caused similar reactions by those who are too sensitive and don't want to be challenged is Spec Ops: the Line. That game also has a massive controversy created by those who could never imagine themselves in the place of a soldier on the "evil" side. 

It's like saying the soldiers that fought in the 2003 Iraq war that was blatantly illegal and justified on falsified evidence were evil or stupid and should have tried to murder the Bush administration that so obviously set it all up, instead of the evil Iraqis. I think this is all a problem mostly to do with the American public and how they have been fed a narrative of good Vs evil since the last century, this thread blew up with toxicity during American hours after all.

Edited by SRPG Tryhard

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2 hours ago, SRPG Tryhard said:

Haha wow an actual moderator and admin throwing insults because they don't like what people are discussing. After they were proven wrong about what is happening in the game as others already proved by citing in game text. 

And they DID derail the thread with insults as soon as they started losing the argument. Like babies that are throwing a tantrum when they don't get what they want. None of the reports for literal insults are going through of course, why would they, the mod can insult people and get away with it.

No, Integrity, the thread is not a shitshow. It is YOU who is intolerant and toxic.

Dude, what you've described is literally a small part of what I had to do in high school literature.

But at any rate, it was nice knowing you...

 

 

Edited by Armchair General

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1 hour ago, SRPG Tryhard said:

It doesn't matter how many people share an opinion or not. This point of view has been argued based on what is shown in the game and its detractors have been shown a few times to contradict or are ignorant of what is happening in the game, such as not understanding that Garon is a slime who just does Anankos's bidding to destroy Nohr and Hoshido. So this point of view still stands as valid.

And we all just saw what happens when you hold that opinion as Integrity's insults just showed to everyone.

If you have to say something on topic do that instead of containing that someone is disagreeing with you.

That doesnt make the story "good". That just means they tried to make a point of something, not that it was executed well or not. 

The writers job is to make what they are trying to say believable. Fates does not do this right in the least.

I'd respond to the last point but you of anyone have no reason to say anything.

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2 hours ago, SRPG Tryhard said:

Haha wow an actual moderator and admin throwing insults because they don't like what people are discussing. After they were proven wrong about what is happening in the game as others already proved by citing in game text. 

And they DID derail the thread with insults as soon as they started losing the argument. Like babies that are throwing a tantrum when they don't get what they want. None of the reports for literal insults are going through of course, why would they, the mod can insult people and get away with it.

No, Integrity, the thread is not a shitshow. It is YOU who is intolerant and toxic.

There is an issue I'm seeing right now that you seemed to be locked in your interpretation of genius and you're not engaging with people who think otherwise. If you think that people are just babies who are throwing tantrums as they lose an argument, why would you make another thread about it? Discussion of theme could be fun, but it's not fun if nay-sayers are considered just 'babies.' 

This thread has been fine so far. The last one was not, and the mods had not been engaged in that one until they were summoned by users who were complaining about user behavior.

If you are taking issue to moderation, please contact others on the staff in DM if you wish to discuss it. There is no purpose in saying things like "none of the reports will go through," as you have no way of knowing how we handle reports against other people. 

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2 hours ago, Specta said:

There is an issue I'm seeing right now that you seemed to be locked in your interpretation of genius and you're not engaging with people who think otherwise. If you think that people are just babies who are throwing tantrums as they lose an argument, why would you make another thread about it? Discussion of theme could be fun, but it's not fun if nay-sayers are considered just 'babies.' 

This thread has been fine so far. The last one was not, and the mods had not been engaged in that one until they were summoned by users who were complaining about user behavior.

If you are taking issue to moderation, please contact others on the staff in DM if you wish to discuss it. There is no purpose in saying things like "none of the reports will go through," as you have no way of knowing how we handle reports against other people. 

Oh no you probably didn't notice. I did engage them, but apparently as soon as they got offended for being proven wrong they started throwing insults around to derail the thread from reaching a conclusion they dislike and got away with it because they are mods. 

I was called a bunch of insults already with no repercussions to the poster. I suppose this is the kind of behaviour that is normal here. I don't think I did anything wrong. It's pretty funny how you are still pretending to be blind to a whole page of off topic insults and belittlement but immediately jumped to me.

The offending posts from Integrity are still up by the way. Who are you kidding?

Not sure what are you even talking about. Am I wrong for report ling someone insulting me because they are a mod? Integrity has even insulted me in a pm in the past but after I shared it with another mod they just ignored me. There must be some serious problem with the moderation here.

Edited by SRPG Tryhard

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7 minutes ago, Armchair General said:

Correct. Garon is a slime monster, this is fact shown in the game. It's not some  revelation that he is evil. Eclipse seems to miss that part or misunderstood my point and is arguing against a strawman instead.

Are you going to quote more of my posts to clarify? Go ahead.

No thanks. I think I debated just fine until I was called a "manchild" and a "cunt", "troll" that my post is as good going to the toilet, and a bunch of other insults that you pretend to ignore. 

It's pretty funny that you haven't posted anything on the subject itt yet except complain.

 

Edited by SRPG Tryhard

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Just now, SRPG Tryhard said:

Oh no you probably didn't notice. I did engage them, but apparently as soon as they got offended for being proven wrong they started throwing insults around to derail the thread from reaching a conclusion they dislike and got away with it because they are mods. 

The offending posts from Integrity are still up by the way. Who are you kidding?

I certainly have been going through the thread as it was reported as my time permits - if you are referring to the previous thread. I am not sure what mod behavior you were seeing that was so pervasive, as the mods were not active in that thread not were the mods throwing insults in that thread. 

If you mean this thread, there is nothing in this thread that has proven anybody wrong, so that is likely not anyone's motivation, nor has there been a recognizably conscious or successful attempt at derail barring this conversation about it.

Yes, the posts are up, and that does not negate what I said. I recognize you are frustrated, but I am not sure what you expect. I will not provide evidence of what action was taken against any other user. If the only evidence you accept is whether or not you can visibly see that a post was hidden, you will of course never think anyone's ever done anything, because we don't always do that.

If you want to talk through further onus with this or the previous thread, please DM me or another staff member so we don't derail this thread's attempt at productive discussion from here on out. I will always hear out concerns.

This goes for everyone else, too. Any further talk of this specific topic should be directed to DM with a mod if it is an issue. If it is in this thread specifically, it will be treated as a derail from now.

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1 minute ago, Specta said:

I certainly have been going through the thread as it was reported as my time permits - if you are referring to the previous thread. I am not sure what mod behavior you were seeing that was so pervasive, as the mods were not active in that thread not were the mods throwing insults in that thread. 

If you mean this thread, there is nothing in this thread that has proven anybody wrong, so that is likely not anyone's motivation, nor has there been a recognizably conscious or successful attempt at derail barring this conversation about it.

Yes, the posts are up, and that does not negate what I said. I recognize you are frustrated, but I am not sure what you expect. I will not provide evidence of what action was taken against any other user. If the only evidence you accept is whether or not you can visibly see that a post was hidden, you will of course never think anyone's ever done anything, because we don't always do that.

If you want to talk through further onus with this or the previous thread, please DM me or another staff member so we don't derail this thread's attempt at productive discussion from here on out. I will always hear out concerns.

This goes for everyone else, too. Any further talk of this specific topic should be directed to DM with a mod if it is an issue. If it is in this thread specifically, it will be treated as a derail from now.

Cut the chase. Why are the insults directed at me still up in this thread?

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34 minutes ago, SRPG Tryhard said:

Cut the chase. Why are the insults directed at me still up in this thread?

I made it quite clear that anything further should be in DM, thank you. I will not respond to this topic in this thread. Anything further on this topic put here specifically will unfortunately have to be a warning.

Edited by Specta

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29 minutes ago, SRPG Tryhard said:

Oh no you probably didn't notice. I did engage them, but apparently as soon as they got offended for being proven wrong they started throwing insults around to derail the thread from reaching a conclusion they dislike and got away with it because they are mods. 

Never engaged with my critiques, never engaged with Ottservia's critiques (albeit they were in a more tangential direction), and from what I have seen, the closest you have gotten to proving anyone's points wrong is by completely missing the point they were making. You put forth a straw man of eclipse's point that so comically missed the point that multiple people assumed you were joking, and anytime the point is brought up in the slightest, you start acting like everyone else is the one making a strawman argument, while bringing up the strawman you invented for the other side.

35 minutes ago, SRPG Tryhard said:

Correct. Garon is a slime monster, this is fact shown in the game. It's not some  revelation that he is evil. Eclipse seems to miss that part or misunderstood my point and is arguing against a strawman instead.

How does Garon being a slime monster not make him a character? This is a fantasy setting where the main character, Corrin, is a dragon monster, and the symbol of hatred from your original post is a possessed husk (the game is very explicit that the possessed husk isn't Takumi). Why would a character being evil, absolve them of their evil deeds? Numerous scenes in Conquest shows Slime Garon is a driving force in keeping this war going, so why should people ignore this in favor of your more symbolic approach? Why is the slime monster's importance ignored out of hand, while the possessed husk isn't? Why is the monster whose presence, and impact have been felt throughout the game unimportant in the face of a monster that barely existed for one scene?

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I wasn’t gonna post in this thread, but I decided to read through the posts here just to see how toxic the Fates discussion would get. And yet I have to say...

9 hours ago, SRPG Tryhard said:

It doesn't matter how many people share an opinion or not. This point of view has been argued based on what is shown in the game and its detractors have been shown a few times to contradict or are ignorant of what is happening in the game, such as not understanding that Garon is a slime who just does Anankos's bidding to destroy Nohr and Hoshido. So this point of view still stands as valid.

SRPG Tryhard this is not how themes and messages work. Having evidence or reasoning for thinking it is a theme does not just make you correct, as you seem to imply, that destroys the whole point. You gather your own opinions and interpretations based off of the story and that’s that, what you get from something might not be what everyone else did. So you did not prove anything, fighting Takumi at the end is no proof that theme of Conquest is hate.

See watch, Fire Emblem Fates’ theme is that being creepy and doing evil or morally questionable things doesn’t matter if you’re pretty. Throughout the whole game they spend time going “Garon murders Garon bad!” with similar thoughts for Iago and Hans, and these men... just don’t look good. But Camilla and Peri? Oh yeah they’re pretty, welcome to the army! You can kill for fun/act like a psycho all you want, you’re so hot! What’s that Charlotte? You’re here to use people of wealth for their riches and pretend like you love them to further your own financial gain? Well you’re hot, or at least are vastly more confirming to the societal standards of beauty than Hans of all people. Welcome on board!

I rest my case. And can you prove this interpretation wrong?

8 hours ago, nedya said:

Huh i didn't expet this to happen to the Holy Forest in my two months of joining in but events happen every day i suppose ( idk what SRPG Tryhard point is but agree to disagree is what i think a lots of people aren't getting.)

Imagine what things were like when Fates was new...

I mean, I wasn’t an fe fan back then. But still.

4 hours ago, SRPG Tryhard said:

Correct. Garon is a slime monster, this is fact shown in the game. It's not some  revelation that he is evil. Eclipse seems to miss that part or misunderstood my point and is arguing against a strawman instead.

You want people to debate with you and yet when they state part of their argument you basically call them captain obvious/imply that they’re stupid for using something very well supported in the game in their argument.

Edited by Sooks

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13 minutes ago, Sooks said:

I wasn’t gonna post in this thread because I don’t actually want to debate the plot of Fire Emblem Fates of all games, but I decided to read through the posts here just to see how toxic the Fates discussion would get. And yet I have to say...

SRPG Tryhard this is not how themes and messages work. Having evidence or reasoning for thinking it is a theme does not just make you correct, as you seem to imply, that destroys the whole point. You gather your own opinions and interpretations based off of the story and that’s that, what you get from something might not be what everyone else did. So you did not prove anything, fighting Takumi at the end is no proof that theme of Conquest is hate.

See watch, Fire Emblem Fates’ theme is that being creepy and doing evil or morally questionable things doesn’t matter if you’re pretty. Throughout the whole game they spend time going “Garon murders Garon bad!” with similar thoughts for Iago and Hans, and these men... just don’t look good. But Camilla and Peri? Oh yeah they’re pretty, welcome to the army! You can kill for fun/act like a psycho all you want, you’re so hot! What’s that Charlotte? You’re here to use people of wealth for their riches and pretend like you love them to further your own financial gain? Well you’re hot, or at least are vastly more confirming to the societal standards of beauty than Hans of all people. Welcome on board!

I rest my case. And can you prove this interpretation wrong?

Imagine what things were like when Fates was new...

I mean, I wasn’t an fe fan back then. But still.

You want people to debate with you and yet when they state part of their argument you basically call them captain obvious/imply that they’re stupid for using something very well supported in the game in their argument.

Honestly, I was under the impression that the game's theme was loyalty to your family vs doing what's right...Until it was revealed that Garon was a puppet.

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5 minutes ago, Armchair General said:

Honestly, I was under the impression that the game's theme was loyalty to your family vs doing what's right...Until it was revealed that Garon was a puppet.

Yeah and the mastermind was a dragon too! Not sexy at all..... so they kill him! See I’m just so right?? /s

Edited by Sooks

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14 minutes ago, Armchair General said:

Honestly, I was under the impression that the game's theme was loyalty to your family vs doing what's right...Until it was revealed that Garon was a puppet.

I mean even then I feel that interpretation still holds. I mean just look Xander as a character. His whole arc is essentially him needing to learn to stand up for himself and what he thinks is right for Nohr instead of following a man that clearly does not care for him. I’d argue the idea of Loyalty in general is a big overall theme in fates especially if you take into account Lord and retainer relationships that are pretty emphasized in the game. In birthright most retainers are loyal because of legacy and bloodline while in conquest it’s more out of respect or even just a paycheck. Hell the awakening trio are actually a pretty good exploration of this theme of loyalty when you think about it.

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4 hours ago, Sooks said:

Yeah and the mastermind was a dragon too! Not sexy at all..... so they kill him! See I’m just so right?? /s

IS’s philosophy has been blatantly revealed.

Anyway, to actually go on topic, I’ll repeat an already stated point- having a concept for a story does not equal good execution of said concept. If the true enemy is hate, why is Garon comically evil, rather than just a good and fair king blinded by his prejudice and hatred of others? If Takumi represents hate and that’s why he’s the final boss, why does his ghost tell Corrin that he never hated him? Any kind of legitimate commentary on hate is undermined by the need to advertise the other paths. And as for the whole “evil actions” thing, playing through conquest results in evil things being done, yes, but by your obviously evil allies, while you try your best to do good and have a pure good hearted reason for doing what you do. Is it a decent conflict? Sure, I can give it that. Does it actually make you feel like the villain? No. Not for me at least. If you feel differently that’s fine but the impact it had on you doesn’t mean that it had the same meaning for anybody else. So it’s very difficult to call it objectively good or genius or whatever, considering that.

Edited by Anathaco

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I wish OP had a profile picture of someone like Narcien or Kempf. His arrogance and derision fits them better than Byleth.

On 11/28/2020 at 4:23 AM, Ottservia said:

This can be seen with characters like Xander who’s whole arc is being able to accept the fact that the thing he’s taking orders from is not his father and if he truly wants to protect Nohr he needs to stand up to him. He feels obligated to follow Garon because he is his father but the story considers this wrong. Xander needs to learn to think for himself and not blindly follow a man who clearly does not care for him. 

Is it a character arc when Xander is on team Garon until the very moment Garon flips and attacks them? He straight up threatens to murder Corrin, right outside the throne room, under suspicion that it's a fiendish Hoshidan trap. Maybe it's just my personal tastes, but I think an arc needs to be more than a last minute epiphany about the evils of your faction, all while side-stepping any moral responsibility for being complicit for so long. The story is clear on Garon being bad, but it never focuses on Xander needing to correct his behavior. If fact, Xander acts as one of the main moral guiding figures late into the game with the "justice is an illusion" speech

On 11/28/2020 at 4:23 AM, Ottservia said:

Takumi, specifically, is a character who feels obligated to hate Corrin because they are from Nohr. He wanted to accept them this whole time but he felt he couldn’t out of obligation due to what happened to his father but as we learn at the end of conquest that’s not how he truly feels. The tragedy comes from the fact those negative feelings consume him to the point where he is not himself anymore. He refuses to shake off that obligation and refuses to trust Corrin until well it’s too late. He feels bound by obligation and legacy similar to Xander and that flaw is what leads to his death in the end. There are plenty more examples of this sort of thing within the story but those are the most prominent ones.

I'm not sure that's an accurate reading of his character. Disregarding that the plot forces him to like Corrin, as all sympathetic characters simply must, the conflict in his feelings is that he wanted Corrin to be his sibling but can't get over the fact that Corrin keeps doing things to hurt him and his family. That's not "my family and country are pressuring me to hate you", it's "I'm rather upset that you're invading my land, killing my people and are, at the very least, indirectly responsible for my mom's death."

 

 

 

Edited by NekoKnight

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Personally, I'm in the camp that Garon shouldn't be an puppet for a senile dragon because it would've been more tragic for when you actually have to kill him.

Who knows, you could probably blame Iago for turning him evil and have him secretly worshipping Anankos.

Edited by Armchair General

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7 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

Is it a character arc when Xander is on team Garon until the very moment Garon flips and attacks them? He straight up threatens to murder Corrin, right outside the throne room, under suspicion that it's a fiendish Hoshidan trap. Maybe it's just my personal tastes, but I think an arc needs to be more than a last minute epiphany about the evils of your faction, all while side-stepping any moral responsibility for being complicit for so long. The story is clear on Garon being bad, but it never focuses on Xander needing to correct his behavior. If fact, Xander acts as one of the main moral guiding figures late into the game with the "justice is an illusion" speech

I wouldn’t say it never does. Maybe in conquest but in birthright Xander does take quite the punishment for being wrong. Let’s break down what happens here. Xander refuses to back down and stand against Garon out of obligation to Nohr and his father. He fights Corrin more so out of obligation and being chained down by blood ties. He feels he has no choice in the matter but he does whuch is why he loses. But not only does he lose, he kills his youngest sister and dies a martyr in what is essentially assisted suicide. Not only that but his death doesn’t amount to much of anything. He fails to achieve anything. Ge fails to save Nohr, He fails to stop Corrin, and he fails to overcome his own internal struggles. His death is ultimately meaningless. So I wouldn’t say the story never focuses on him needing to correct his behavior. He gets punished enough if you ask me.

7 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

I'm not sure that's an accurate reading of his character. Disregarding that the plot forces him to like Corrin, as all sympathetic characters simply must, the conflict in his feelings is that he wanted Corrin to be his sibling but can't get over the fact that Corrin keeps doing things to hurt him and his family. That's not "my family and country are pressuring me to hate you", it's "I'm rather upset that you're invading my land, killing my people and are, at the very least, indirectly responsible for my mom's death."

I mean fair enough, I suppose. I’ve been wrong in my interpretations before. I mean I’ve played Persona 5 like 6 times and it was only on the sixth play through that I’m starting to really understand the greater themes of that story. I really need to replay conquest at some point. There’s a lot of shit that might’ve flown straight over my head.

Edited by Ottservia

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