Mongol invasion of Japan and...wait what!?

[Jotari]

So the Mongol Empire was the largest land empire in history. They conquered basically all of east and central Asia. But they never got Japan. It wasn't because they didn't know how to build boats. They tried to and failed because of a random typhoon. This happened twice. It's what the term Kamekaze (Divine Wind) originally referred to. I think that new game that's all the rage, Ghost of Tsushima has something to do with it. But here's a more classical depiction of the whole thing.

Wait a second. What the hell is that.

Holy hell! They used the Triforce to repel the invasion!?!

Edited December 1, 2020 by Jotari

[ciphertul]

That is the family crest of the Hojo 

[Jotari]

14 minutes ago, ciphertul said:

That is the family crest of the Hojo 

HOJO!

The plot thickens!

[Hello72207]

10 minutes ago, Jotari said:

The plot thickens!

I don't see the image, but I can inform you that yes, I did help repel the invasion.

[ping]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

HOJO!

J-E-N-O-V-A!

(image doesn't load, but the URL gives it away)

The reason I roughly knew about the term Kamikaze outside of the WW2 context is actually Civ6. And they say that videogames don't teach you anything.

With Triforces, too!

Part of his leader ability is that nations he's at war with take double damage from hurricanes when in Japanese territory. Which will likely never come up during a campaign, but the other bonuses are pretty darn strong.

Oh, and they're technically in Europa Universalis 4, as well. Just not at the usual start date of 1444, but I vaguely remember seeing the event that the wiki page mentions.

Edited December 1, 2020 by ping

[Sooks]

Is this where the idea of Hyrule Warriors came from...

[Interdimensional Observer]

According to old Wikipedia, the mori -emblem- of the Hojo clan is supposed to be three dragon scales.

 

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

HOJO!

The historical Hojo clan was even more manipulative than the FFVII dude.

The Kamakura bakufu -literally "tent government" but commonly translated "Shogunate" in English- was established by the Minamoto clan, it overthrew the rule of the imperial court in Kyoto. Thus the bushi class after centuries of existence during the Heian period, which started with a weak central government and got increasingly weaker as the centuries went on, had finally amassed enough ambition and power to seize control of Japan. Although technically, the Minamoto clan was established hundreds of years before as an aristocratic offshoot of the royal family.

The first Minamoto shogun, Minamoto no Yoritomo, reduced the Japanese Emperor to a figurehead and his once-authoritative court to a decorative role.

However, after Yoritomo died, his father-in-law, a Hojo, claimed the title of Shikken- "regent". And with that act, all subsequent shoguns of the Kamakura bakufu, which had made the Emperor a figurehead, were themselves reduced to powerless figureheads! The Hojo clan via the Shikken title became became the power-behind-the-power-behind-the-throne, not the Boss, not the Secret Boss, but the True Boss. Only in Japan could you somehow get a functional government with a head of government and two heads of state. 

 

1 hour ago, ping said:

Part of his leader ability is that nations he's at war with take double damage from hurricanes when in Japanese territory. Which will likely never come up during a campaign, but the other bonuses are pretty darn strong.

All he needs is Meiji Restoration and some good tightly-packed district city planning. Took me forever to roll a good map for him, but wow it's amazing. Really easy great Harbors (with the double adjacency bonus card) and +3 Campuses in every city, and, I built lots of great Industrial Zones too, because I like high production. Not my fastest Science Victory, but it was fun.

 

And, 

Meet Hojo Ujiyasu, from Samurai Warriors 3.

According to Wikipedia, he isn't actually related to Hojo clan of the Kamakura period. One of Ujiyasu's predecessors wanted to spiritually embrace the powerful Shikkens of old, and so changed the clan's name and adopted the old Hojo's mori as their own. I'd never think of a European aristocrat doing something like this, but medieval Japan was so lacking in central authority and peace that I guess you could get away with this. It's worth adding that the famed Tokugawa Ieyasu founder of the third, last, and strongest bakufu, claimed descent from the Minamoto clan, which there is no evidence as being true, it was a purely symbolic move of wanting to be connected with a great ancient bloodline.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, ping said:

J-E-N-O-V-A!

(image doesn't load, but the URL gives it away)

The reason I roughly knew about the term Kamikaze outside of the WW2 context is actually Civ6. And they say that videogames don't teach you anything.

With Triforces, too!

Part of his leader ability is that nations he's at war with take double damage from hurricanes when in Japanese territory. Which will likely never come up during a campaign, but the other bonuses are pretty darn strong.

Oh, and they're technically in Europa Universalis 4, as well. Just not at the usual start date of 1444, but I vaguely remember seeing the event that the wiki page mentions.

Typhoons? In Europe? Did that series expand to be Eurasia Universalis at some point?

8 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

According to old Wikipedia, the mori -emblem- of the Hojo clan is supposed to be three dragon scales.

 

The historical Hojo clan was even more manipulative than the FFVII dude.

The Kamakura bakufu -literally "tent government" but commonly translated "Shogunate" in English- was established by the Minamoto clan, it overthrew the rule of the imperial court in Kyoto. Thus the bushi class after centuries of existence during the Heian period, which started with a weak central government and got increasingly weaker as the centuries went on, had finally amassed enough ambition and power to seize control of Japan. Although technically, the Minamoto clan was established hundreds of years before as an aristocratic offshoot of the royal family.

The first Minamoto shogun, Minamoto no Yoritomo, reduced the Japanese Emperor to a figurehead and his once-authoritative court to a decorative role.

However, after Yoritomo died, his father-in-law, a Hojo, claimed the title of Shikken- "regent". And with that act, all subsequent shoguns of the Kamakura bakufu, which had made the Emperor a figurehead, were themselves reduced to powerless figureheads! The Hojo clan via the Shikken title became became the power-behind-the-power-behind-the-throne, not the Boss, not the Secret Boss, but the True Boss. Only in Japan could you somehow get a functional government with a head of government and two heads of state. 

 

All he needs is Meiji Restoration and some good tightly-packed district city planning. Took me forever to roll a good map for him, but wow it's amazing. Really easy great Harbors (with the double adjacency bonus card) and +3 Campuses in every city, and, I built lots of great Industrial Zones too, because I like high production. Not my fastest Science Victory, but it was fun.

 

And, 

Meet Hojo Ujiyasu, from Samurai Warriors 3.

According to Wikipedia, he isn't actually related to Hojo clan of the Kamakura period. One of Ujiyasu's predecessors wanted to spiritually embrace the powerful Shikkens of old, and so changed the clan's name and adopted the old Hojo's mori as their own. I'd never think of a European aristocrat doing something like this, but medieval Japan was so lacking in central authority and peace that I guess you could get away with this. It's worth adding that the famed Tokugawa Ieyasu founder of the third, last, and strongest bakufu, claimed descent from the Minamoto clan, which there is no evidence as being true, it was a purely symbolic move of wanting to be connected with a great ancient bloodline.

Didn't Charlemagne do basically exactly that with the entire Roman Empire?

[joevar]

3 hours ago, ping said:

The reason I roughly knew about the term Kamikaze outside of the WW2 context is actually Civ6. And they say that videogames don't teach you anything.

i learned Hojo, tokimune, and triforce banner from civ6 too.. i thought mentioning it here was silly, but you beat me to it

3 hours ago, ping said:

Part of his leader ability is that nations he's at war with take double damage from hurricanes when in Japanese territory. Which will likely never come up during a campaign, but the other bonuses are pretty darn strong.

yeah, the hurricanes is just one type of disaster that could randomly appear, and to have your enemy actually near the tile it appear, and become your enemy in that same turn, need some extreme coincidences

[ping]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Typhoons? In Europe? Did that series expand to be Eurasia Universalis at some point?

Oh, the Divine Wind leader ability is in Civ6, as @joevar is describing it. Sorry for being unclear.

Europa Universalis is a bit of an artifact title. As far as I know (and Wikipedia confirms), you could only play as one of 8 European powers in the first game (England, France, Spain, Portugal, Austria, Poland-Lithuania, Russia, Ottomans), but it starts around the time Columbus thought he arrived in India, i.e. when the Europeans started to conquer their way around the globe. Starting in EU2, you could pick any nation around the world.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Did you think those sailing conditions could be caused by anything LESS than the Triforce?

[Ertrick36]

People talking about how they learned history from Samurai Warriors and Civilization games, and here I am having learned it from the Mount and Blade Warband mod Gekokujo (and random investigations via Google which aren't at all a proper substitute for an actual history degree).  Although some things are just to significant to avoid learning, like Nobunaga's obsession with guns.  Speaking of, if Hoshido is based on Edo-era Japan then why aren't there tanegashimas anywhere to be seen?  How is it that Mozu seems to be treated as lower class than Oboro's immediate family, and why are merchants prestigious enough to be a promoted class?

[L3xandr3]

1 hour ago, Ertrick36 said:

Speaking of, if Hoshido is based on Edo-era Japan then why aren't there tanegashimas anywhere to be seen?  How is it that Mozu seems to be treated as lower class than Oboro's immediate family, and why are merchants prestigious enough to be a promoted class?

Based on =/= Is. Besides, are any FEs truly a medieval atmosphere, with serfs and the like?

 

I enjoy history, but IDK enough about the topic at hand to add anything to the discussion. Except that Japan got off very lucky.

[Etrurian emperor]

6 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Meet Hojo Ujiyasu, from Samurai Warriors 3.

Oh we can find much better pictures of that absolute stud!

 

[AnonymousSpeed]

8 hours ago, ping said:

The reason I roughly knew about the term Kamikaze outside of the WW2 context is actually Civ6. And they say that videogames don't teach you anything.

I got into History (and whatever other pursuits an interest in history gave me) because of Civilization 4's civlopedia entries.

6 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

the Minamoto clan

Shiggy been leading Japan for literal centuries, what a guy.

[Jotari]

7 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

Did you think those sailing conditions could be caused by anything LESS than the Triforce?

It's like they're not even trying to hide it, calling it the Divine Wind.

7 hours ago, ping said:

Oh, the Divine Wind leader ability is in Civ6, as @joevar is describing it. Sorry for being unclear.

Europa Universalis is a bit of an artifact title. As far as I know (and Wikipedia confirms), you could only play as one of 8 European powers in the first game (England, France, Spain, Portugal, Austria, Poland-Lithuania, Russia, Ottomans), but it starts around the time Columbus thought he arrived in India, i.e. when the Europeans started to conquer their way around the globe. Starting in EU2, you could pick any nation around the world.

I evidently only have passing familiarity with the first game .

Edited December 1, 2020 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

Though not as impressive, this reminds of a similar incident that happened during the War of 1812. The British were setting Washington DC aflame, when the skies began to get cloudy... cue a storm with a freaking tornado that wrecked havoc on the British ranks and doused the fires. 

Also fun fact. The case with the Mongols wasn't a Spanish Armada situation where the boats were mostly struck while at sea. The Mongols had actually landed on Japanese shores. In an area not heard of to be struck by typhoons. Yet cue the typhoon. Some time later the Mongols then thought "Fool me once...", then cue the second typhoon.

With cases like that, it could pretty much seem apt to be referred to as Divine occurrences...

Edited December 2, 2020 by Acacia Sgt

[Pengaius]

This will be the only thing I have to contribute.

[joevar]

if hoshido really is medieval japanese in culture, i would expect some of them royalty/nobles character to actually commit seppuku for how bad the game is

 

11 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

Based on =/= Is. Besides, are any FEs truly a medieval atmosphere, with serfs and the like?

better not, its ripe for bad storytelling

or at least dont insert it because the setting is medieval look-alike, or worse referencing a certain time period

Edited December 2, 2020 by joevar

[Jotari]

28 minutes ago, joevar said:

if hoshido really is medieval japanese in culture, i would expect some of them royalty/nobles character to actually commit seppuku for how bad the game is

 

better not, its ripe for bad storytelling

or at least dont insert it because the setting is medieval look-alike, or worse referencing a certain time period

Ryoma does in Conquest, with extra lightning to boot.

[joevar]

4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Ryoma does in Conquest, with extra lightning to boot.

oh, gonna check that. what chapter

[Ertrick36]

8 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

Based on =/= Is. Besides, are any FEs truly a medieval atmosphere, with serfs and the like?

Just a joke, mang, though I probably would like the series more if they were historically accurate/realistic to what a feudal society was actually like.  I know the reason they don't do it, however.  But to clarify, I was referring to the caste system in Japan that was based on China's old Four Occupations system, which was notably different from how people were classed in Europe because in China/Southeast Asia they made it a point to distinguish between peasants, artisans, and merchants while Europe generally didn't place the merchants or artisans anywhere in particular (they were probably in the "free peasants" category).

With that said, Oboro herself is probably more in line with being in the samurai class by virtue of her current occupation and the relatives that took her in.

10 minutes ago, joevar said:

better not, its ripe for bad storytelling

or at least dont insert it because the setting is medieval look-alike, or worse referencing a certain time period

I don't know if it'd make for bad storytelling, it really depends on how the writer actually executes it.  Probably best to avoid the topic of serfdom, though - slavery is a bad enough topic, imagine telling a kid that the vast majority of people were basically slaves to callous rich people back in Medieval times.

I know it's not really as fast-paced dramatic as Fire Emblem typically is, though.  I will say, however, that a story like William the Conqueror's could be made to be fairly dramatic and cool - three wannabe kings all eyeing a slice of land, two of the claimants in bitter disagreement after the previous king complicated the throne's succession, multiple sides of the story... there's a lot you could do with that, and you could give each of the claimants some distinguished traits to make you more sympathetic or opposed to their causes.  I might be biased though because I just like the Normans in general.  Also, Three Houses actually hit the mark pretty damn close when it came to portraying a Medieval society, and the relevant issues, such as Miklan's disinheritance, the squabbling of the nobles of the Leicester Alliance, or the lack of power the royal throne in Adrestia and Faerghus have are rather riveting and dramatic conflicts in the story of Three Houses.

[joevar]

2 minutes ago, Ertrick36 said:

I know it's not really as fast-paced dramatic as Fire Emblem typically is, though.

exactly why i dont want it. fire emblem story-gameplay cant convey deep problematic story like a thick novel could. a century problem suddenly solved within months with just war as the tool is, well.. not that it cant, but just look at three house, if we just take that idea, then Edelgard story would be the best one since it basically wants to abolish (corrupt) nobility and prejudices and usher in new era. but turns out the controversies commentaries actually louder than the satisfied one. since the gameplay stop short from showing the result of the war, and instead just a slideshow fest

but never say never i guess 😕

[Jotari]

35 minutes ago, joevar said:

oh, gonna check that. what chapter

Third last.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wfpbA2NCl0

[L3xandr3]

On the topic of serfdom, I don't think the FE series is a good place for such a volatile subject. I know it has it's problems (Incest and pedophilia, etc. Is that just a thing in Japan?), but does anyone play FE for the resolution of difficult topics? I don't think so, but I've been wrong about odder things.

 

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Third last.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wfpbA2NCl0

I've got mixed feelings about that scene. I guess that bit is in character for Ryoma, but it feels like it was made just to make Corrin squirm. Ah, I should probably not reignite that debate.