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henrymidfields
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1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

While I agree that the Empire and the Kingdom-Church Alliance were likely evenly matched, Edelgard may have had other reasons to hold the war at a standstill. Like, maybe she didn't have confidence in being able to defeat Twiztid without the Professor's help. In which case, she'd want to hold off on capturing/killing Rhea.

I don't think Edelgard is the type of gal to sit in the corner because she's scared without Byleth sempai holding her hand. Given her behavior in other routes Edelgard's very willing to carry her plans through with or without Byleth. I also don't think the crazy mole people would have been a very hard nut for Edelgard to crack either way. With their low numbers and stunning incompetence I think they were always meant to come off as a faction of crazy people destined to lose no matter what happens. 

I don't find it very surprising that there would be a five year long deadlock. Hubert states that the elites of the knights of Seiros are more stronger than the elites of the Empire, Rhea and Dimitri are likely very capable leaders(especially now Dimitri isn't a crazy hobo) and incredibly powerful fighters to boot, and the Kingdom also has a giant fortress city protecting its border. Fodlan seems very much based on the Three Kingdoms where it was very common for natural barriers to keep the front lines static not just for years but entire decades so I'm guessing that's how the war dragged out so long in Crimson Flower. Rhea and Edelgard tried getting each other but just couldn't crack the defenses of the other side.  

Edited by Etrurian emperor
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15 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I don't think Edelgard is the type of gal to sit in the corner because she's scared without Byleth sempai holding her hand. Given her behavior in other routes Edelgard's very willing to carry her plans through with or without Byleth. I also don't think the crazy mole people would have been a very hard nut for Edelgard to crack either way. With their low numbers and stunning incompetence I think they were always meant to come off as a faction of crazy people destined to lose no matter what happens. 

Actually, just how much are their strengths compared to other factions? I've always assumed they managed to spy, lie, deceive, cheat and sabotage well enough to infiltrate the higher echelons of the Adrestian government. Them siding with Adrestia in CF's war should also indicate something. I thought it was more Edelgard limiting her reliance on them when she can.

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12 minutes ago, henrymidfields said:

Actually, just how much are their strengths compared to other factions? I've always assumed they managed to spy, lie, deceive, cheat and sabotage well enough to infiltrate the higher echelons of the Adrestian government. Them siding with Adrestia in CF's war should also indicate something. I thought it was more Edelgard limiting her reliance on them when she can.

The Slithers are probably a real danger with their technology, their monsters and their nukes but they're also just a single city so I think any of the Three Nations could easily just march on Mole town and put it to the torch when they know where to find it. 

So while they might be invaluable I also think their strength ranks far below any of the factions. 

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2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Gronder II feels forced every time. In this version, for instance, why would Claude attack Kingdom-Church forces? I know he doesn't care much for Rhea, but they nonetheless would hold a mutual foe in Edelgard.

They could play up Rhea's craziness by having her treating Claude as an enemy by bringing heathens into the continent. Intolerance is supposedly meant to be part of Rhea's issues (despite having an open atheist in her employment). Or just use the exact same excuse in the other routes. Yada yada, Edelgard's causing confusion and Dimitri is crazy. It's stupid and makes little sense and should have been built up more, but hey, at least it gives us a three way battle.

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

That said, I really like CF's "Garreg Mach defense" map. On other routes, it feels like a rehash of Chapter 12. CF is helped by having a totally reversed chapter 12, and including some notable named enemies among the post-skip invaders. I'm not a fan of letting the player win in gameplay, then lose in the narrative.

That battle is more of a "Win in the gameplay and draw in the narrative". Which is good in my opinion per how easy Edelgard's conquest feels as a story.

 

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1 hour ago, henrymidfields said:

I don't know if I need any more personal growth for Edie during the war phase. If anything, I would have liked to see more of what she did during the five year interim. I'd liked to have thought that she and Hubert (and Alois if recruited) spent time searching for Byleth, while keeping the group together. In fact, maybe make this her moment to continue to reach out to others and fill in a couple of more side "supports" as part of her character growth. Maybe once she finds out what Ferdinand wants in a noble, say Edelgard reshuffles the nobility system so that it cannot be passed down to the next generation, similar to how British citizens can be knighted today. Maybe Edelgard makes her first attempts at her meritocracy thing, and appoints, say, Manuela as the Surgeon-General in the whole Adrestian Army. In all this, Edelgard learns how to let go, and trust and delegate onto others.

I can see some value in this, to be sure. But any attempt to show what happened during the timeskip would have to be positioned carefully, to avoid coming off as an "infodump". That said, I do think she still has some growing to do when it comes to trusting her peers. How can she expect them to help her defeat the mole people, when she won't even reveal to them their existence?

1 hour ago, henrymidfields said:

As for the length, chuck in a few extra chapters showing a timeskip and maybe the climatic battle against TWISTD and Nemesis at the end. So Shambala and the missile launcher has been sabotaged, but Thales fled to regroup - they already found out that Edelgard was gunning for them. Then a revived Nemesis and Thales do their last stand against Edelgard. I mean, we have this huge dramatic Chapter 22 in Binding Blade, and 3 more chapters finding the last boss there. If the narrative there works, the same structure 18: Rhea -> 19: Shambala entry -> 20: Shambala -> 21/Final: Nemesis should work as well.

Thematically, there's no beating the Immaculate One as the game's final boss. Edelgard's principal quest is to displace the Church's authority in Fodlan, so any other ending is an anticlimax. Maybe there could be a mission to Shambala, but I really don't want Nemesis as the final boss (too samey with Verdant Wind).

My own desired extender chapters aren't backloaded, but frontloaded. Rather than kicking the post-skip off with an invasion of the Alliance, require Edelgard to set things right at home first. My chapter 13 would see an escaped Count Varley lead a pro-church mutiny, including an assault on Fort Merceus. Once that's repelled, Chapter 14 sees Edelgard defeat the rebellion's leader, Duke Aegir, in Aegir territiry. New scenarios on old maps, that give the player a hand in establishing the legitimacy of Edelgard's rule, over the nobility of old. Plus, you get to live out everyone's fantasy of killing Bernadetta's father.

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27 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I can see some value in this, to be sure. But any attempt to show what happened during the timeskip would have to be positioned carefully, to avoid coming off as an "infodump". That said, I do think she still has some growing to do when it comes to trusting her peers. How can she expect them to help her defeat the mole people, when she won't even reveal to them their existence?

Thematically, there's no beating the Immaculate One as the game's final boss. Edelgard's principal quest is to displace the Church's authority in Fodlan, so any other ending is an anticlimax. Maybe there could be a mission to Shambala, but I really don't want Nemesis as the final boss (too samey with Verdant Wind).

My own desired extender chapters aren't backloaded, but frontloaded. Rather than kicking the post-skip off with an invasion of the Alliance, require Edelgard to set things right at home first. My chapter 13 would see an escaped Count Varley lead a pro-church mutiny, including an assault on Fort Merceus. Once that's repelled, Chapter 14 sees Edelgard defeat the rebellion's leader, Duke Aegir, in Aegir territiry. New scenarios on old maps, that give the player a hand in establishing the legitimacy of Edelgard's rule, over the nobility of old. Plus, you get to live out everyone's fantasy of killing Bernadetta's father.

That would require showing Benadetta's father, and the game has an inexplicable phobia of showing parents.

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The Slithers are probably a real danger with their technology, their monsters and their nukes but they're also just a single city so I think any of the Three Nations could easily just march on Mole town and put it to the torch when they know where to find it. 

So while they might be invaluable I also think their strength ranks far below any of the factions. 

The Agarthans are in the incompatible position in the narrative where they're simultaneously meant to be considered super competent and dangerous, and also really weak and not a credible threat at all. Giving them nukes in particular was such a stupid idea. I actually think it might be my least favourite plot point in the entire series, even worse than Conquests magic orb of contrivance.

Edited by Jotari
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2 hours ago, Jotari said:

That would require showing Benadetta's father, and the game has an inexplicable phobia of showing parents.

I have no illusions that he would receive any better treatment than Baron "Totally-not-a-generic-Paladin" Dominic.

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

The Agarthans are in the incompatible position in the narrative where they're simultaneously meant to be considered super competent and dangerous, and also really weak and not a credible threat at all. Giving them nukes in particular was such a stupid idea. I actually think it might be my least favourite plot point in the entire series, even worse than Conquests magic orb of contrivance.

Not only that, but the nukes don't even accomplish anything narratively. They're not acknowledged to kill any named characters, and they don't turn the tide of war either toward or against the player's army. You could argue that Rhea stopping the nukes made her sick, but that's inconsistent (she dies relatively peacefully on VW, whereas on SS, she goes dragon-crazy and only survives with a high-enough grandchild support). Thales could've used some sort of "poison trap" to the same effect. The only thing they do "accomplish" is revealing their location to Hubert. Which isn't really explained, as Hubert wasn't a direct witness to either attack.

4 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I don't think Edelgard is the type of gal to sit in the corner because she's scared without Byleth sempai holding her hand. Given her behavior in other routes Edelgard's very willing to carry her plans through with or without Byleth. I also don't think the crazy mole people would have been a very hard nut for Edelgard to crack either way. With their low numbers and stunning incompetence I think they were always meant to come off as a faction of crazy people destined to lose no matter what happens. 

I agree and disagree. I think she's more dependent on her Professor on CF than on any other route. This was the route where, not only did they teach her, but they allied with her, even after she invaded the Holy Tomb. She has full confidence in them, just in time to lose them. While she can act without them, a big part of her character is her emotional investment into the Professor.

As for Twiztid, I generally agree with Jotari's assessment. They were in an excellent position, and they squandered it. All Thales has to do is get Edelgard killed - as Regent of the Empire, he's next-in-line for effective control. Had he capitalized on this, rather than presumably keeping her around as a tool after Rhea's defeat, he could have held all of Fodlan in his hands. But the plot requires him to be a dumbass about it.

4 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The Slithers are probably a real danger with their technology, their monsters and their nukes but they're also just a single city so I think any of the Three Nations could easily just march on Mole town and put it to the torch when they know where to find it. 

Is it specified that Shambala is their only hiding place? I had imagined it to be moreso their capital, but not their only location. Not only that, but there are plenty above the surface. In any case, it's naive to think that destroying Shambala marked an end to the Agarthans. 

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2 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I have no illusions that he would receive any better treatment than Baron "Totally-not-a-generic-Paladin" Dominic.

Not only that, but the nukes don't even accomplish anything narratively. They're not acknowledged to kill any named characters, and they don't turn the tide of war either toward or against the player's army. You could argue that Rhea stopping the nukes made her sick, but that's inconsistent (she dies relatively peacefully on VW, whereas on SS, she goes dragon-crazy and only survives with a high-enough grandchild support). Thales could've used some sort of "poison trap" to the same effect. The only thing they do "accomplish" is revealing their location to Hubert. Which isn't really explained, as Hubert wasn't a direct witness to either attack.

That's what pisses me off about them so much. Like sure, if they're an actual element of the story then go ahead and have something ridiculously OP. Let's see how our characters deal with it. But they don't deal with it. They ignore it and they are of no consequence, completely. Removing them from the story would be trivially easy because they're entirely lacking in presence. How can you even manage to do that with nukes! Yet they saw them fit enough to devote resources to two animated movies for them, so it's not like they were some last minute addition. It was something the had planned and integrated into the story yet somehow never actually utilized to any degree resembling effective story telling.

2 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Is it specified that Shambala is their only hiding place? I had imagined it to be moreso their capital, but not their only location. Not only that, but there are plenty above the surface. In any case, it's naive to think that destroying Shambala marked an end to the Agarthans. 

Outright confirmed with the Claude Byleth paired ending which somehow manages to shove the plot of an entire other game into a single paired ending that isn't mentioned anywhere else in any of the other routes.

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2 hours ago, Jotari said:

That's what pisses me off about them so much. Like sure, if they're an actual element of the story then go ahead and have something ridiculously OP. Let's see how our characters deal with it. But they don't deal with it. They ignore it and they are of no consequence, completely. Removing them from the story would be trivially easy because they're entirely lacking in presence. How can you even manage to do that with nukes! Yet they saw them fit enough to devote resources to two animated movies for them, so it's not like they were some last minute addition. It was something the had planned and integrated into the story yet somehow never actually utilized to any degree resembling effective story telling.

Obviously, they deserved the cutscene(s) more than the reunion in Crimson Flower. Or getting buried before the start of Crimson Flower. Or Dedue consoling a dying Dimitri in Crimson Flower. Or- okay, that's enough beating a dead wyvern.

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Outright confirmed with the Claude Byleth paired ending which somehow manages to shove the plot of an entire other game into a single paired ending that isn't mentioned anywhere else in any of the other routes.

So, this is what the Claude/Teach paired ending looks like:

Quote

Byleth, Ruler of Dawn & Claude, King of Unification
After ascending the throne as the first leader of the United Kingdom of Fódlan, Byleth sought to rebuild the war-torn towns and villages and to help guide the reformation of the Church of Seiros. After a few months of peace, remnants of the Imperial army joined with those who slither in the dark and marched upon the capital city of Derdriu. The new kingdom lacked the power to repel the invaders, but when defeat seemed imminent, a battle cry rang out from the east. Claude, the newly-crowned King of Almyra, led a mighty army that broke through the rebel forces with ease. This show of solidarity forever altered the course of history, heralding a new age of unity.

For the record, you mean my point was confirmed? Namely, that Those Who Slither survived in some form.

As for the ending itself - weird. I thought it was a romantic one. Just based on this ending, it definitely should have been possible to pair male Teach with Claude. That said, I kinda hate how impersonal this one is. Then again, I'm not a fan of several elements of Verdant Wind's ending (Nemesis showing up apropos of nothing, Claude yeeting himself back to Almyra, Teach becoming ruler of Fodlan because IDK a sword picked them or something, and the lack of any clear designs for how a "unified Fodlan" will operate).

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9 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Thematically, there's no beating the Immaculate One as the game's final boss. Edelgard's principal quest is to displace the Church's authority in Fodlan, so any other ending is an anticlimax. Maybe there could be a mission to Shambala, but I really don't want Nemesis as the final boss (too samey with Verdant Wind).

Someone over at Reddit suggested extra cutscenes depicting Hubert having a celebration drink with Lord Arundel right after Chapter 18, only to then show Lord Arundel collapsing from his poisoned drink. Maybe Shambala could be a Part 3 / story-based Trial Map after you finish CF or AM, or it could be a side quest with Jeritza as a routine exercise to show who's boss when they get uppity. (VW would get the Defense of Deridu instead. Not sure about SS.)

9 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

My own desired extender chapters aren't backloaded, but frontloaded. Rather than kicking the post-skip off with an invasion of the Alliance, require Edelgard to set things right at home first. My chapter 13 would see an escaped Count Varley lead a pro-church mutiny, including an assault on Fort Merceus. Once that's repelled, Chapter 14 sees Edelgard defeat the rebellion's leader, Duke Aegir, in Aegir territiry. New scenarios on old maps, that give the player a hand in establishing the legitimacy of Edelgard's rule, over the nobility of old. Plus, you get to live out everyone's fantasy of killing Bernadetta's father.

Now that you mentioned it, I wonder why that wasn't written in for CF... It could also have been a way to establish how TWISTD managed to infiltrate the Adrestian Government. I think that TWISTD was only a threat to Edelgard because of the anti-Emperor noble's backings. After all, the nobles were also involved (or at least complicit) in the crest experiments on Edelgard. That might have a way of showing how TWISTD gradually lost their power base, and thus their political influence, and how Edelgard started to defang them. Maybe not quite the same as bursting into Shambala with guns a-blazing, but still better than just mentioning them in the credits.

Edited by henrymidfields
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5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Obviously, they deserved the cutscene(s) more than the reunion in Crimson Flower. Or getting buried before the start of Crimson Flower. Or Dedue consoling a dying Dimitri in Crimson Flower. Or- okay, that's enough beating a dead wyvern.

So, this is what the Claude/Teach paired ending looks like:

For the record, you mean my point was confirmed? Namely, that Those Who Slither survived in some form.

As for the ending itself - weird. I thought it was a romantic one. Just based on this ending, it definitely should have been possible to pair male Teach with Claude. That said, I kinda hate how impersonal this one is. Then again, I'm not a fan of several elements of Verdant Wind's ending (Nemesis showing up apropos of nothing, Claude yeeting himself back to Almyra, Teach becoming ruler of Fodlan because IDK a sword picked them or something, and the lack of any clear designs for how a "unified Fodlan" will operate).

Yes, I mean that ending confirms that there are still Agarthans operating with the power to incite a rebellion even after the destruction of Shmabala. Logically this same event a few months after the end of the game should have happened on all routes (except Crimson Flower which logically should have way more Agarthan stuff after the end of the game). Unless it only happens in this specific ending because Mycen is super in love with Claude and got really pissed when he got close to the god empress Byleth, changing his actions and motivations. Which is just silly.

2 hours ago, henrymidfields said:

Someone over at Reddit suggested extra cutscenes depicting Hubert having a celebration drink with Lord Arundel right after Chapter 18, only to then show Lord Arundel collapsing from his poisoned drink. Maybe Shambala could be a Part 3 / story-based Trial Map after you finish CF or AM, or it could be a side quest with Jeritza as a routine exercise to show who's boss when they get uppity. (VW would get the Defense of Deridu instead. Not sure about SS.)

I would have been fine with that honestly. The game doesn't need to have Edelgard deal with the Agarthans in a grand big conflict in Shambala. Her simply arresting Arundel after dispatching Cordelia seems sensible enough. It also means she's choosing to potential expose herself to Dimitri and Rhea by turning on her own allies, this shows her commitment to doing the right thing, rather than just what's needed to win.

Edited by Jotari
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6 hours ago, henrymidfields said:

Someone over at Reddit suggested extra cutscenes depicting Hubert having a celebration drink with Lord Arundel right after Chapter 18, only to then show Lord Arundel collapsing from his poisoned drink. Maybe Shambala could be a Part 3 / story-based Trial Map after you finish CF or AM, or it could be a side quest with Jeritza as a routine exercise to show who's boss when they get uppity. (VW would get the Defense of Deridu instead. Not sure about SS.)

"What happened to Arundel?"

"I put poison in his wine."

"...Gwa-ha-ha!"

6 hours ago, henrymidfields said:

Now that you mentioned it, I wonder why that wasn't written in for CF... It could also have been a way to establish how TWISTD managed to infiltrate the Adrestian Government. I think that TWISTD was only a threat to Edelgard because of the anti-Emperor noble's backings. After all, the nobles were also involved (or at least complicit) in the crest experiments on Edelgard. That might have a way of showing how TWISTD gradually lost their power base, and thus their political influence, and how Edelgard started to defang them. Maybe not quite the same as bursting into Shambala with guns a-blazing, but still better than just mentioning them in the credits.

While the Agarthans allied with those nobles in the past, in my vision, their current rebellion is without Agarthan support. Thales wouldn't have a motive to displace Edelgard while they share a common enemy in Rhea. If anything, the rebellion would establish Edelgard's own need for Twiztid to achieve her goals - without them, even her control at home is incomplete.

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

I would have been fine with that honestly. The game doesn't need to have Edelgard deal with the Agarthans in a grand big conflict in Shambala. Her simply arresting Arundel after dispatching Cordelia seems sensible enough. It also means she's choosing to potential expose herself to Dimitri and Rhea by turning on her own allies, this shows her commitment to doing the right thing, rather than just what's needed to win.

Hm, maybe? That would make Edelgard look morally better. But there are still a large contingent of Kingdom-Church forces. Losing the support of not just Thales, but Twiztid as a whole, could compromise her own mission. I'd rather see her keep working with them, but express a distinct plan to undermine them after the war. Show that she's planned this out, not just "crossing that bridge when she gets to it."

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20 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

"What happened to Arundel?"

"I put poison in his wine."

"...Gwa-ha-ha!"

While the Agarthans allied with those nobles in the past, in my vision, their current rebellion is without Agarthan support. Thales wouldn't have a motive to displace Edelgard while they share a common enemy in Rhea. If anything, the rebellion would establish Edelgard's own need for Twiztid to achieve her goals - without them, even her control at home is incomplete.

Hm, maybe? That would make Edelgard look morally better. But there are still a large contingent of Kingdom-Church forces. Losing the support of not just Thales, but Twiztid as a whole, could compromise her own mission.

Okay it's come up so many times and I've just been too lazy to ask, but what is Twiztid? Seems like an acronym for the Agarthans, so Tw I'm guessing is short for "Those who" but the rest is losing me.

20 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I'd rather see her keep working with them, but express a distinct plan to undermine them after the war. Show that she's planned this out, not just "crossing that bridge when she gets to it."

That would still leave me with the feeling of "Okay so when am I going to see the end of the story?" after finishing the game. Sure, it's way better than "Ah we'll sort some shit out later" END CREDITS, Edelgard won because her foes were arrogant (even though she was being even more ridiculously arrogant in just assuming she could out espionage the mole people who have been playing this game of shadows for over ten thousand years), but setting up stuff like that and not paying it off would still make it feel like an incomplete story. But simultaneously Rhea just has to be the final boss, so I think the only solution is to do it before the end of the game. And rather than making it a massive detour, dealing with it abruptly would make it a nice surprise while playing the game, and just in terms of logic it seems like the best way for Edelgard to defeat them, as it would come as completely unexpected to them, precisely because she still needs her help to beat Rhea.

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48 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Okay it's come up so many times and I've just been too lazy to ask, but what is Twiztid? Seems like an acronym for the Agarthans, so Tw I'm guessing is short for "Those who" but the rest is losing me.

The actual Twiztid is a hip-hop duo, in the same vein as Insane Clown Posse. I'm calling the Agarthans that because it's already how I pronounce the more-proper TWSITD, and because I find it funny.

50 minutes ago, Jotari said:

That would still leave me with the feeling of "Okay so when am I going to see the end of the story?" after finishing the game. Sure, it's way better than "Ah we'll sort some shit out later" END CREDITS, Edelgard won because her foes were arrogant (even though she was being even more ridiculously arrogant in just assuming she could out espionage the mole people who have been playing this game of shadows for over ten thousand years), but setting up stuff like that and not paying it off would still make it feel like an incomplete story. But simultaneously Rhea just has to be the final boss, so I think the only solution is to do it before the end of the game. And rather than making it a massive detour, dealing with it abruptly would make it a nice surprise while playing the game, and just in terms of logic it seems like the best way for Edelgard to defeat them, as it would come as completely unexpected to them, precisely because she still needs her help to beat Rhea.

I think it boils down to "no good answer". Edelgard disposing of Arundel and co before beating Rhea totally kneecaps the notion that "I need their support to win this war". If she's confident in beating her two greatest foes thus far (Dimitri and Rhea) without their aid, then did she really need it beforehand? Or was she enabling needless suffering by keeping them around (including giving Arundel free reign over the defeated Alliance)? Meanwhile, dealing with them in the post-game credits just seems lazy and rushed... but having you fight them undercuts the significance of Rhea as the final boss. Maybe the best answer is an optional post-game fight, but having an "optional end" (a la FE6) feels bad to me, too.

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35 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

The actual Twiztid is a hip-hop duo, in the same vein as Insane Clown Posse. I'm calling the Agarthans that because it's already how I pronounce the more-proper TWSITD, and because I find it funny.

Okay, yeah, well I was never going to figure that one out. Calling them Pillar Men would have been a reference more akin to my experience XD

Quote

I think it boils down to "no good answer". Edelgard disposing of Arundel and co before beating Rhea totally kneecaps the notion that "I need their support to win this war". If she's confident in beating her two greatest foes thus far (Dimitri and Rhea) without their aid, then did she really need it beforehand? Or was she enabling needless suffering by keeping them around (including giving Arundel free reign over the defeated Alliance)? Meanwhile, dealing with them in the post-game credits just seems lazy and rushed... but having you fight them undercuts the significance of Rhea as the final boss. Maybe the best answer is an optional post-game fight, but having an "optional end" (a la FE6) feels bad to me, too.

Or the revolutionary idea of removing the generic evil Fire Emblem cult manipulating things from the shadows from the game entirely. I actually like the Agarthans and their aesthetic more than probably a typical Three Houses player and do find them a bit better than most evil cults in the series when examined in isolation, but man are they just so horrendously written to the extent that this story could be so much  better by just axing them entirely. Part 1 would need a little rework so there's actually an enemy to fight, but that can easily be solved by just committing entirely to Edelgard as the villain and make her behind everything in Part 1.

Making it a DLC post game campaign ala Heirs of Fate could kind of worth either. Though that would probably receive criticism of them releasing CF as unfinished by requiring extra chapters you have to buy to put it at the same length as the other routes.

Edited by Jotari
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1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Making it a DLC post game campaign ala Heirs of Fate could kind of worth either. Though that would probably receive criticism of them releasing CF as unfinished by requiring extra chapters you have to buy to put it at the same length as the other routes.

Another solution: Simply make it as part of a free update.

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1 minute ago, henrymidfields said:

Another solution: Simply make it as part of a free update.

That's really quite a lot of work for very little gain. And integrate it too much into the main story and you run into the narrative problem of content post Rhea downplaying the conflict with Rhea.

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We interrupt your regular Three Houses discourse to bring you a few Jugdral headcanons:

  • Shanan immediately noticed how similar Julia looked to Deirdre and had suspicions, secretly pressing noncombatant Grannvalians the Liberation Army came across for more information.
  • Julia started to recover bits of her identity as early as post-Aed with the above, and realized she was Julius's brother around Connaught after feeling his presence when he popped in to retrieve Ishtar. She keeps it from Seliph to avoid stirring controversy, and to avoid putting an even bigger target on her AND their army.
  • Manfroy goofed because he was so used to getting away with everything that he believed he could get away with controlling Naga's vessel.
  • By the way that would never work; the moment she got a hold of that tome she'd break free and turn on him, and no amount of mind control practice would've changed that.
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6 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

We interrupt your regular Three Houses discourse to bring you a few Jugdral headcanons:

  • Shanan immediately noticed how similar Julia looked to Deirdre and had suspicions, secretly pressing noncombatant Grannvalians the Liberation Army came across for more information.

I hope when Genealogy gets its hypothetical remake, Shanan will get more screen time in Gen 2. It's a bit disappointing how he basically vanishes from the plot after showing up. Logically he should be just as major a figure in the rebellion as Seliph is.

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1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I hope when Genealogy gets its hypothetical remake, Shanan will get more screen time in Gen 2. It's a bit disappointing how he basically vanishes from the plot after showing up. Logically he should be just as major a figure in the rebellion as Seliph is.

"What if you wanted

To be a playable non-Lord character with any degree of plot significance?

But Kaga said

PERMADEATH."

They could at least give Julia talks with Shanan and Oifey.

2 hours ago, X-Naut said:

By the way that would never work; the moment she got a hold of that tome she'd break free and turn on him, and no amount of mind control practice would've changed that.

I don't think he ever intended to let Julia use the Naga tome. Otherwise, he would've given it to her to help take out Seliph and company.

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Or the revolutionary idea of removing the generic evil Fire Emblem cult manipulating things from the shadows from the game entirely. I actually like the Agarthans and their aesthetic more than probably a typical Three Houses player and do find them a bit better than most evil cults in the series when examined in isolation, but man are they just so horrendously written to the extent that this story could be so much  better by just axing them entirely. Part 1 would need a little rework so there's actually an enemy to fight, but that can easily be solved by just committing entirely to Edelgard as the villain and make her behind everything in Part 1.

Making Edelgard "behind everything" runs the risk of leaving her less sympathetic than she currently is. Maybe they could've just made the Western Church into a more serious antagonist? Given its head bishop a name and a face, perhaps? Seeing these seemingly-petty religious squabbles embroil the land in war could add some fuel to Edelgard's anti-Church fire.

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2 hours ago, Jotari said:

I hope when Genealogy gets its hypothetical remake, Shanan will get more screen time in Gen 2. It's a bit disappointing how he basically vanishes from the plot after showing up. Logically he should be just as major a figure in the rebellion as Seliph is.

Well that's how FE used to be, just the lord, their advisor, and occasionally another person. Thank the concepts of permadeath and ironman.

That said, SoV's creation of a main story entourage where there was none leaves me thinking Shannan can run his sword through Forseti in beautiful CGI be a member of it. Not sure who else to add, Oifey would be another old man -not exactly appealing. Julia is already there, but the other kiddos don't seem like they'd fit other than Leif, partly b/c variable. Finn is another old man.

36 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Seeing these seemingly-petty religious squabbles embroil the land in war could add some fuel to Edelgard's anti-Church fire.

Petty squabbles can have big consequences. Keep in mind Rome and Constantinople split after centuries of living in different geopolitical and religious organizational spheres, and a number of tiny theological disputes like the filioque- just a few words in a prayer!

In this case, the Pope and the Patriarch each had some of a continent to sustain itself in, Rome everything Poland and west of it, Constantinople the rest. And so it was when Martin Luther triggered the Reformation centuries later. If Luther had no German aristocrats to protect him, there would have been no lasting break from Rome. So, if 3H wanted to make religious dissenters powerful, they'd need territories with powerful princes to protect them.

I'll assume Dimitri is played as the Rhean papist, so either Edelgard stops being outwardly atheist (as I assume she is), or Claude adopts the dissenting faith. For the German nobles and other European rulers who embraced Protestantism, they now had total freedom to pick their clergy, as opposed to some control from Rome, and, they could confiscate ecclesiastical lands as they pleased. Thus, Edelgard could be motivated to go Western I guess, is a faith she regulates a real threat? The Protestant churches wrote "Obey your lieges!" into their sermons after the German Peasants' War to stay on their elite patrons' good sides.

If Edel went dissenter, then the Alliance I guess could become even more diverse via Poland-like religious tolerance. A devoutly Catholic monarch now and forever, but Orthodoxy, Protestantism, and Judaism were legally permitted to exist. A framework that surprisingly held up, and wasn't actually responsible for Poland's demise- that was the purely political Golden Liberty's fault.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer
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20 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Well that's how FE used to be, just the lord, their advisor, and occasionally another person. Thank the concepts of permadeath and ironman.

That said, SoV's creation of a main story entourage where there was none leaves me thinking Shannan can run his sword through Forseti in beautiful CGI be a member of it. Not sure who else to add, Oifey would be another old man -not exactly appealing. Julia is already there, but the other kiddos don't seem like they'd fit other than Leif, partly b/c variable. Finn is another old man.

You say that, but it's not actually how Genealogy worked in Gen 1. Deidre, Finn, Quan and Ethlyn were retreat characters with plot significance and characters like Lewyn continue to hang around too all having their own inputs into the story. I think even Claude is mentioned as doing important stuff in the Chapter 5 intro despite being capable of dying in Chapter 4. Sigurd doesn't even have a dedicated advisor character, the closest would be Oifey, but Sigurd and his interactions are a very far cry from the Forseti and Seliph show that Gen II becomes (though at least Gen II throws some bones towards Leif too, who is similarity a major figure in the rebellion). Given how they formatted Gen I and kept character important even with permadeath, I see no reason at all they could have had Shannan playing a role in the plot post recruitment, either by giving him relevant things to do that could be missed if he's killed, like Leif, or by just having him continue have plot important scenes should he die in gameplay, like Lewyn.

56 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

They could at least give Julia talks with Shanan and Oifey.

Or hell have Shanan and Oifey talk to each other. These two are hetrosexual life partners who have raised kids together, yet we don't see their bromance at all.

Quote

Making Edelgard "behind everything" runs the risk of leaving her less sympathetic than she currently is. Maybe they could've just made the Western Church into a more serious antagonist? Given its head bishop a name and a face, perhaps? Seeing these seemingly-petty religious squabbles embroil the land in war could add some fuel to Edelgard's anti-Church fire.

I really have no issue with making Edelgard less sympathetic. The only plot point I think would need some significant reworking would be remire village (because it's just pointless) and Jearlt's death, as I don't think Byleth would forgive Edelgard if she had any direct hand in that.

That being said, giving the Western Church an actual face would definitely be much appreciated.

Edited by Jotari
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14 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You say that, but it's not actually how Genealogy worked in Gen 1. Deidre, Finn, Quan and Ethlyn were retreat characters with plot significance and characters like Lewyn continue to hang around too all having their own inputs into the story. I think even Claude is mentioned as doing important stuff in the Chapter 5 intro despite being capable of dying in Chapter 4. Sigurd doesn't even have a dedicated advisor character, the closest would be Oifey, but Sigurd and his interactions are a very far cry from the Forseti and Seliph show that Gen II becomes (though at least Gen II throws some bones towards Leif too, who is similarity a major figure in the rebellion). Given how they formatted Gen I and kept character important even with permadeath, I see no reason at all they could have had Shannan playing a role in the plot post recruitment, either by giving him relevant things to do that could be missed if he's killed, like Leif, or by just having him continue have plot important scenes should he die in gameplay, like Lewyn.

Or hell have Shanan and Oifey talk to each other. These two are hetrosexual life partners who have raised kids together, yet we don't see their bromance at all.

Actually, barring Dierdre they still had no story significance while in the party. No story lines, just optional talk convos. Which is shown as Quan, Ethlyn, and Finn all return to Leonster instead of sticking around if defeated (Quan and Ethlyn pretty much did first what Pent and Louise do in Blazing Blade). Lewyn at least has some lines at the beginning of Chapter 4 even if defeated, but other than that he too is a non-entity outside talk convos. No, Claude is not mentioned in the Chapter 5 intro. He too has no lines after joining Sigurd outside talk convos. A remake is likely to still have the Leonster trio leave if defeated, so if they do like SoV, it will likely be Oifey and Shannan the ones getting more dialogue since they are NPC's that do stick for almost all of Gen 1. Maybe Lewyn gets that role instead since he is the only true "sticks around even if defeated" of Gen 1.

That said, they could indeed do that with Oifey and Shannan during Gen 2. At this point it's no brainer Leif would be included as well.

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12 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Actually, barring Dierdre they still had no story significance while in the party. No story lines, just optional talk convos. Which is shown as Quan, Ethlyn, and Finn all return to Leonster instead of sticking around if defeated (Quan and Ethlyn pretty much did first what Pent and Louise do in Blazing Blade). Lewyn at least has some lines at the beginning of Chapter 4 even if defeated, but other than that he too is a non-entity outside talk convos. No, Claude is not mentioned in the Chapter 5 intro. He too has no lines after joining Sigurd outside talk convos. A remake is likely to still have the Leonster trio leave if defeated, so if they do like SoV, it will likely be Oifey and Shannan the ones getting more dialogue since they are NPC's that do stick for almost all of Gen 1. Maybe Lewyn gets that role instead since he is the only true "sticks around even if defeated" of Gen 1.

That said, they could indeed do that with Oifey and Shannan during Gen 2. At this point it's no brainer Leif would be included as well.

I meant the Chapter 4 intro if he died in Chapter 3, don't know how I made that typo when I distinctly remember counting the chapters in my head to be sure I was right. Anyway I just checked and it turns out I was still wrong, i was thinking of Claude mentioning he tried to return to Grandbell but his letters were blocked, but this isn't in the intro, it's in a talk with Sigurd.

Quan and Ethlyn have the pretty damn big plot element of dying even if they're killed (insert People die if they're killed meme).

And yeah, that stuff in Chapter 4 is exactly what I was thinking about. Him actually getting Forseti if he's alive too. Shannan meanwhile gets nothing. A single talk with Seliph about something I can't even remember the importance of and one of two different lover convos if you pair him with the correct characters. They didn't do a massive amount to make the characters feel present and part of the plot with the mentioned Gen 1 characters, it would have been nice if they threw something Shannan's way. Maybe built Brian up as a personal enemy for him more given his family were the one that subjugated Isaach (plus I'm rather fond of Brian and the two lines of dialogue he's given). Or just news that the Empire isn't just sitting there waiting to be attacked and that they reconquered Isaach off screen during Chapter 9 or 10, just to give some dilemma as to what the alliance should do next.

Edited by Jotari
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