If you had the chance to remake FE4 what would you add or want to see?

[Dandy Druid]

21 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Ayra's kids always have Pursuit, though. Miracle is nice, although Larcei has the option of the Miracle Sword. No Sword inheritance on Skasahar sucks though.

One pairing I'd like to try for is Finn x Tailte. Miracle and Wrath sounds like an exceptionally strong combination. And the kids want Pursuit. Unfortunately, the window to hook them up is quite narrow.

Claude!Lester would still probably suck, with no way to hit more than once. Still, I'd love to see more weapons added in a remake - the Shining Bow could come along with the Longbow and Hammer.

I'm assuming the "4 decent pairings" are Lewyn, Azel, Lex, and Claude? Still think Finn would be worthwhile, if you could swing him. Ultimately, there's gonna be a rough hierarchy of pairings for each mother. That's not an inherently bad thing - sometimes it's fun to challenge yourself with sub-optimal pairings.

Will be curious to see if/how this happens. Every remake thus far has featured some kind of reclassing. I'm envisioning every Gen I unit having a secondary class, then the kids inheriting their mother's and father's base classes (and possibly one backup class). Could probably reclass in the Castle, like promoting.

Forgot that they had Pursuit. Not that they'll need it too much if they proc Astra a lot. Plus their growths are decent.

I haven't tried Finn x Taillte because if Taillte doesn't hook up with a magical dude, her kids' combat will suffer until they promote. The only reason why I like Lex as a father is although Vantage + Wrath is nice, it wouldn't be enough for me if the kids didn't have Elite. Elite is the one reason why I consider Lex as a father but not Arden, despite them having similar stats and growths. Miracle is tempting, but I'd rather give Tinni the Miracle Sword and Arthur the Miracle Band.

I agree Claud!Lester will still suck. He'd need the Shining Bow, Pursuit Band, and maybe the Magic Ring (which others want as well) to be fairly competent. Would it be worth it? Who knows.

And Yep, those are Taillte's 4 decent pairings. 5 if you want to count the Grim Reaper as one so you can get Linda, who's actually a really decent substitute. She comes with Elite naturally and doesn't have a MAG growth penalty for doing so. Amid is just ok. Sad he doesn't get a horse.

Also, on the topic of reclassing, I would probably like that as well. Especially as a new game plus option or something. I can see the 2nd class for the first Gen characters being:

Spoiler

Sigurd -> Master Knight

Naoise -> Lance Knight/Duke Knight

Alec -> Free Knight/Ranger

Arden -> Axe Knight/Great Knight

Quan -> Dracoknight

Ethlyn -> Princess/Master Knight

Finn -> Draco Rider/ Dracoknight

Azel -> Fire Mage/Sage

Lex -> Axe Fighter/Warrior

Midir -> Cavalier/Paladin

Edain -> Bow Fighter/Sniper (I can also see her being a Bow Knight, but not sure if they would create a female model for that)

Dew -> Myrmidon/Hero

Ayra -> Pegasus Knight/Falcon Knight

Jamke -> Bow Knight/Arch Knight

Chulainn -> Cavalier/Paladin

Lewyn -> Mage/Mage Knight (Horseti lives on)

Silvia -> Cleric/High Priest

Erin -> Wind Mage/Mage Fighter

Beowulf -> Thief/Thief Fighter

Brigid -> Myrmidon/Swordmaster

Claud -> Mage Fighter

Taillte -> Troubadour/Valkyrie

 

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Dandy Druid said:

Forgot that they had Pursuit. Not that they'll need it too much if they proc Astra a lot. Plus their growths are decent.

I haven't tried Finn x Taillte because if Taillte doesn't hook up with a magical dude, her kids' combat will suffer until they promote. The only reason why I like Lex as a father is although Vantage + Wrath is nice, it wouldn't be enough for me if the kids didn't have Elite. Elite is the one reason why I consider Lex as a father but not Arden, despite them having similar stats and growths. Miracle is tempting, but I'd rather give Tinni the Miracle Sword and Arthur the Miracle Band.

I agree Claud!Lester will still suck. He'd need the Shining Bow, Pursuit Band, and maybe the Magic Ring (which others want as well) to be fairly competent. Would it be worth it? Who knows.

And Yep, those are Taillte's 4 decent pairings. 5 if you want to count the Grim Reaper as one so you can get Linda, who's actually a really decent substitute. She comes with Elite naturally and doesn't have a MAG growth penalty for doing so. Amid is just ok. Sad he doesn't get a horse.

Also, on the topic of reclassing, I would probably like that as well. Especially as a new game plus option or something. I can see the 2nd class for the first Gen characters being:

  Hide contents

Sigurd -> Master Knight

Naoise -> Lance Knight/Duke Knight

Alec -> Free Knight/Ranger

Arden -> Axe Knight/Great Knight

Quan -> Dracoknight

Ethlyn -> Princess/Master Knight

Finn -> Draco Rider/ Dracoknight

Azel -> Fire Mage/Sage

Lex -> Axe Fighter/Warrior

Midir -> Cavalier/Paladin

Edain -> Bow Fighter/Sniper (I can also see her being a Bow Knight, but not sure if they would create a female model for that)

Dew -> Myrmidon/Hero

Ayra -> Pegasus Knight/Falcon Knight

Jamke -> Bow Knight/Arch Knight

Chulainn -> Cavalier/Paladin

Lewyn -> Mage/Mage Knight (Horseti lives on)

Silvia -> Cleric/High Priest

Erin -> Wind Mage/Mage Fighter

Beowulf -> Thief/Thief Fighter

Brigid -> Myrmidon/Swordmaster

Claud -> Mage Fighter

Taillte -> Troubadour/Valkyrie

 

Jamke must stay true to his heritage and go Fighter for his reclass. You make him a bow knight and he has no reason at all to ever even be a sniper.

[Interdimensional Observer]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Jamke must stay true to his heritage and go Fighter for his reclass. You make him a bow knight and he has no reason at all to ever even be a sniper.

Actually, Jamke does have reason to stay Archer/Sniper. His Pursuit is rooted in his class, it doesn't carry over on a horse. He'd be a one-shot not-wonder relying on inconsistent Adept and Charge to get second hits, or the flower that is Edain for that Brave Bow. Midir would be the better Bow Knight.

[Jotari]

47 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Actually, Jamke does have reason to stay Archer/Sniper. His Pursuit is rooted in his class, it doesn't carry over on a horse. He'd be a one-shot not-wonder relying on inconsistent Adept and Charge to get second hits, or the flower that is Edain for that Brave Bow. Midir would be the better Bow Knight.

Well Pursuit ring is a thing too, but even so, I'd prefer Jamke taking the class of his siblings over his standard class plus a pony.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

6 hours ago, Dandy Druid said:

Also, on the topic of reclassing, I would probably like that as well. Especially as a new game plus option or something. I can see the 2nd class for the first Gen characters being:

Ooh, Imma make my own. With the caveat that, promoted units below level 20 reclass into something first-tier (and lose promo-bonuses):

Spoiler

Sigurd: Prince -> Master Knight (he's already a Prince, so...)

Alec: Wind Mage -> Mage Fighter (bruh he has green armor)

Noish: Fire Mage -> Mage Fighter (bruh he has red armor)

Arden: Myrmidon -> Swordmaster (that's right, his dream of getting Pursuit is fulfilled!)

Lex: Axe Armor -> General (Neir blood is defensive, so weird that no Neir folks are armored)

Azelle: Priest -> High Priest (say, he crushes so hard on Adean that he tries to take her class)

Quan: Cavalier -> Paladin (he loves Lances, and IMO needs to stick in a horse class)

Ethlyn: Princess -> Master Knight (similar to Sigurd, plus it can be inherited from Lord Byron)

Finn: Lance Armor -> General (Armor seems to fit with his role of guarding Leif)

Midir: Bow Armor -> General (Again, he failed to protect Adean, so maybe as an Armor Knight....)

Adean: Archer -> Sniper (in line with her sister, and her Holy Blood)

Dew: Dancer (I swear I thought he was a girl at first, and his combat is so bad, why not a support role?)

Ayra: Pegasus Knight -> Falcon Knight (I liked this one, and we don't see many Isaachian soldiers, so we can't say for sure they don't use pegasi *taps forehead*).

Jamke: Fighter -> Warrior (like his brothers, it's a bandit kingdom after all)

Chulain: Sword Armor -> General (trying out Luna, in a new set of duds)

Raquesis: Troubadour -> Paladin (striving to be as much like her noble crush... er, brother, as possible)

Sylvia: Shaman -> Sage (she goes back to school, tries to prove she's more than a pretty face, and discovers a gift in magic)

Lewyn: Mage -> Mage Knight (I suppose I can indulge some Horseti silliness)

Beowulf: Mercenary -> Hero (boy's gotta get paid, after all)

Erinys: Lance Knight -> Duke (er, Duchess?) Knight (our girl's paranoid about ballistae, but doesn't want to give up the lance)

Brigid: Thief -> Rogue (she's grown up a pirate, so stealing seems a reasonable course of action)

Tiltyu: Bard -> Sage (maybe Bard is male-only, IDK, but this way she can be like Ishtar)

Claud: Bow Knight -> Arch Knight (IDK why, but something about the name "Claud" screams "bow user")

Also, some Gen 2:

Spoiler

Oifaye: Sword Armor -> General (he fondly remembers his old mentor, the hero from house Chalphy... you know, Arden)

Johan: Bard -> Sage (out of left field, but hey, he likes to recite poetry, right?)

Johalva: Axe Knight -> Great Knight (ever the pragmatist, he kills his brother and steals his horse)

Shanan: Free Knight -> Forrest Knight (Oifaye's been teaching him how to ride)

Ares: Mercenary -> Hero (he's part of a Mercenary company, after all)

Hannibal: Dragon Knight -> Dragon Lord (or however these work, he's Thracian, let him fly)

 

[Dandy Druid]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Jamke must stay true to his heritage and go Fighter for his reclass. You make him a bow knight and he has no reason at all to ever even be a sniper.

 

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well Pursuit ring is a thing too, but even so, I'd prefer Jamke taking the class of his siblings over his standard class plus a pony.

Both of you are completely right and I completely agree. Put down the bow (until your promote) and pick up the axe!

[Sayyyaka]

I want a $5 DLC pack with a paralogue focused on young Julius and Arvis and also a change from Ced -> Sety that's exclusive to this DLC

[Use the Falchion]

Okay, here's another incredibly controversial one from a person who didn't play the game - add more Gen 1 female units so that the replacement units can be recruited like normal units.

Right now I'm not thinking about all of the replacement units, but at least half of them. After all, in the first gen there are seven available women and thirteen men, so we might as well balance out the gender ratio a bit while we have the chance to do so. There's also the fact that this could please players like me who love to recruit every available unit possible...which is why some of the narrative choices in Fates: Revelation still tick me off to no end. (And why I find the Karel/Harken choice annoying.) Because again, as cool as the idea for replacement characters was at the time, we're not longer in that time. We've had twelve games release since then, and twenty five years has passed. Casual fans care about shipping for fun and getting those happy endings far more than they might have back in FE4's original time. So here's the compromise. 

Ultimately, these women would live long enough past the first gen to have children so that players that paired neither these new units nor the original units up could still recruit their children. After that...I'm honestly not sure. It'd feel cheap adding them in as playable units in Gen 2, but it'd also feel cheap making them DLC characters. Maybe have them as NPCs around the main castle areas? That could work...

As to the classes of these women, that's more fan speculation and head-canons than anything else. But hey, we're all having fun here...or we should be having fun here, so might as well put it in: 

 

Jeanne & Tristan (Lachesis replacements) - I'll ramp up the controversy and gender-swap Eve. Make her one of Lachesis' best friends and her guard, who decides to journey with her liege despite the danger. Their relationship would be similar to Sakura and Hana's relationship, or Elise and Effie. Eve's brothers would remain as men, if only to provide some fun supports. I can easily imagine Eve's support chain involving her enjoying the freedom from her brothers at first, given that since they're triplets, they're all lumped together, to ultimately realizing that she misses her brothers and feels like a part of her soul is gone because they're not there. (Another support could have Eve realize something similar - we start with her being popular with the some of the men in the army because she always brings extra food and knows how to be "one of the guys," but ultimately Eve reveals that she brings extra food because her impulse is to bring food to her brothers sometimes.*) Tragically, she never reunites with them. Eve would stay as a Paladin, but probably work like Felicia and Camilla in terms of pre-promotes.  

 

Daisy & Asaello (Brigid replacements) - No real ideas spring to mind, other than the fact that their mother is a Wyvern Rider/Dracoknight. As far as I can tell, Sigurd's generation doesn't have a character for this class, so giving us one is an easy fix. Daisy and Asaello don't have any real family ties, so putting them here feels nice. And while it stinks that no real weapons can be passed down, maybe if their father was Alec or Noish, they could do something about it...? Although in my head, their father was Jamke, and the two go through a sort of "rags to riches" storyline...

 

Hermina & Hawk (Erinys' replacements) - Probably a Dark Mage. This one is easily one of the hardest mothers, as there really isn't Dark Magic available for the players in FE4, and I'm not sure how I'd feel about retcons allowing that. In my head, this woman would be an acrophobic mage who actually desires to join the Loptyr cult. Since the cult is all but gone in name, and she's willing to fight for Sigurd and his allies, they let it slide. This is ultimately deconstructed as it turns out she has been keeping notes on the party...not that it does her any good. While she may beg for her life at Belhalla, no one will save her, since the Loptyr cult considers her too corrupted by Sigurd and his allies to trust. Ultimately, this character would be a deconstruction of Tharja and the whole Yandare-ally archetype. 

A potentially even darker route would have her be the mother of Laylea and Charlot (Silvia's replacements), and is obsessed with Sigurd (not unlike the obsessions Tharja, Camilla, and Faye have). The loss of her husband and her unrequited love at Belhalla would drive her to the darkest of arts in the form of Necromancy, and she would ultimately end up trying to imbue her unborn child with Sigurd's Holy Blood. This would be left utterly ambiguous if it succeeded or not.* ...yeah, that's probably too dark...or maybe it's an appropriate level of darkness, considering how grim this game can be at times...

 

Lastly, an Isaachian commoner. Having a commoner is a - heh - common trope in FE now. Kris and co were commoners I believe; and since then we've had Donnel, Mozu, Faye, and Cyril. Adding a commoner here isn't too impossible. What I can't figure out is if she'd be the mother of Muirne & Deimne (Edain) or Creidne & Dalvin (Ayra). All four come from Isaach, are allies with Seliph at the beginning of his journey, and are characters I want in the game. The problem is that Muirne & Deimne are supposed to be commoners who grew up with Seliph. Giving players the chance to pair their mother up with a noble sort of ruins that aspect. Ultimately, the best choice may be to have this villager be the mother of Creidne & Dalvin. 

This mother's recruitment would be reminiscent of Donnel & Mozu's recruitment. She'd start out as a green unit with other villagers, and you'd have to scramble to save her. From there, players would need to get her to a certain level (or maybe save a set amount of buildings) before she'd be convinced to join your party for good. Or just talk to her with Ayra. To recruit Creidne & Dalvin, I think it'd be fun to sort of pay respects to the Oosawa manga. Have both of them be mentioned as former allies of Seliph. Creidne is later fought as an enemy in an optional castle, but to fight him, players would have to take out another group of enemies on a different part of the map, rescue Dalvin, heal her, and then bring her over to her brother. To many this may not be worth the effort, but I think it'd be an interesting thing to do. But only once, and only if Ayra has children. If Ayra doesn't have children, then Creidne & Dalvin would work as they originally did.

So...yeah. To me the above is pretty much the best of all worlds since it kills nearly three birds with one stone. We've fixed most of the gender ratio, added some fun new characters that may help spice things up for veteran players, and turned mutually exclusive characters into inclusive ones. 

 

 

 

 

*Which admittedly sounds pretty sexist, but in my head they'd do the same for her as well. They'd bring her food and water, make sure she's doing alright, and overall be hilariously awesome.

*Although I low-key love the idea of her child being a genetic chimera. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics)

Edited March 13, 2021 by Use the Falchion

[Axie]

On 3/13/2021 at 2:46 AM, Use the Falchion said:

Okay, here's another incredibly controversial one from a person who didn't play the game - add more Gen 1 female units so that the replacement units can be recruited like normal units.

Right now I'm not thinking about all of the replacement units, but at least half of them. After all, in the first gen there are seven available women and thirteen men, so we might as well balance out the gender ratio a bit while we have the chance to do so. There's also the fact that this could please players like me who love to recruit every available unit possible...which is why some of the narrative choices in Fates: Revelation still tick me off to no end. (And why I find the Karel/Harken choice annoying.) Because again, as cool as the idea for replacement characters was at the time, we're not longer in that time. We've had twelve games release since then, and twenty five years has passed. Casual fans care about shipping for fun and getting those happy endings far more than they might have back in FE4's original time. So here's the compromise.  

Ultimately, these women would live long enough past the first gen to have children so that players that paired neither these new units nor the original units up could still recruit their children.

you didn't play, so it's only logical you don't know, but this game works way differently from fates and awakening to NOT have replacements, though. you eventually lose all of your characters and need the new ones to function, while the children in fates and awakening are entirely optional. you can miss pairings in gen 1, and you need the replacements if you do. also, how would the children even work in gameplay if you are saying they show up even if the mother is unpaired? how would their bases and growths be calculated?

i don't see a genealogy remake removing the replacement dynamic, and i don't think they should. you'd just have to live with never having all the available characters, i suppose.

 

speaking of replacements, i wouldn't mind if they were a bit better. not that better that you'd rather have them over pairing the mother, but some replacements are just so lame. i guess removing pursuit as a skill concept fixes a lot of that, though. DOUBLING FOR EVERYONE.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Axie said:

you didn't play, so it's only logical you don't know, but this game works way differently from fates and awakening to NOT have replacements, though. you eventually lose all of your characters and need the new ones to function, while the children in fates and awakening are entirely optional. you can miss pairings in gen 1, and you need the replacements if you do. also, how would the children even work in gameplay if you are saying they show up even if the mother is unpaired? how would their bases and growths be calculated?

i don't see a genealogy remake removing the replacement dynamic, and i don't think they should. you'd just have to live with never having all the available characters, i suppose.

 

speaking of replacements, i wouldn't mind if they were a bit better. not that better that you'd rather have them over pairing the mother, but some replacements are just so lame. i guess removing pursuit as a skill concept fixes a lot of that, though. DOUBLING FOR EVERYONE.

What they really should have done to make the replacement units feel like actually characters was adding them to Thracia with new backstories. Half the Thracia characters are expies of Genealogy character anyway. Just given them the names and designs of the replacement units and boom, characters salvaged from the dump pile of being other characters but lesser. And there is evidence that they planned to have the replacement characters in Thracia, but for whatever reason they ended up not including any of them.

[Axie]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

What they really should have done to make the replacement units feel like actually characters was adding them to Thracia with new backstories. Half the Thracia characters are expies of Genealogy character anyway. Just given them the names and designs of the replacement units and boom, characters salvaged from the dump pile of being other characters but lesser. And there is evidence that they planned to have the replacement characters in Thracia, but for whatever reason they ended up not including any of them.

since that didn't happen, i actually wouldn't mind if they replaced the replacement characters with thracia people (karin over femina, etc). even if they are gameplay bad compared to the kids, it would add a lot of replayability because people would want to check them out eventually. 

[Venger_06]

Let Quan receive the Gae Bolg BEFORE the fight against Eldigan, not after, so it becomes a useful tool and not a glorified mook killer. It is also a good idea to expand the relationship between the two, it will make the confrontation more climatic.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Axie said:

since that didn't happen, i actually wouldn't mind if they replaced the replacement characters with thracia people (karin over femina, etc). even if they are gameplay bad compared to the kids, it would add a lot of replayability because people would want to check them out eventually. 

That could actually be really interesting. Highly doubt they'd actually do it given the substitute characters exist already, but hell yeah I'd ditch Arya's children for an oppertunity to use Mareeta and Galzus.

3 minutes ago, Maof06 said:

Let Quan receive the Gae Bolg BEFORE the fight against Eldigan, not after, so it becomes a useful tool and not a glorified mook killer. It is also a good idea to expand the relationship between the two, it will make the confrontation more climatic.

I like this. Quan has the Gae Bolg for like a single castle chapter in the original game.

[Use the Falchion]

2 hours ago, Axie said:

you didn't play, so it's only logical you don't know, but this game works way differently from fates and awakening to NOT have replacements, though. you eventually lose all of your characters and need the new ones to function, while the children in fates and awakening are entirely optional. you can miss pairings in gen 1, and you need the replacements if you do. also, how would the children even work in gameplay if you are saying they show up even if the mother is unpaired? how would their bases and growths be calculated?

i don't see a genealogy remake removing the replacement dynamic, and i don't think they should. you'd just have to live with never having all the available characters, i suppose.

 

speaking of replacements, i wouldn't mind if they were a bit better. not that better that you'd rather have them over pairing the mother, but some replacements are just so lame. i guess removing pursuit as a skill concept fixes a lot of that, though. DOUBLING FOR EVERYONE.

Firstly, thanks for responding! Secondly, I am aware of the differences between FE4's generation system and the system in Awakening/Fates. Just because I haven't played FE 4 doesn't mean I'm entirely ignorant. I know the story, characters, and overall mechanics. I've read as much of the Oosawa manga I can find. I just haven't played the game. 

I'm also aware of the function of the replacement characters. It's like the replacement NPCs in Mass Effect 2 & 3. But Fire Emblem isn't like that anymore, and this is a change that can be made for the better. Many people (like myself) like supports, and if there are supports in the update (which a remake would be foolish to leave out), the idea that players will have to purposefully sacrifice better units to simply see those supports is a senseless one. 

So the compromise is that the new women would keep their original function while still being playable. Think of them like Chrom in Awakening - Chrom will always have a mother for Lucina, but players can choose a better mother than the Villager if players marry Chrom off by the epilogue of Chapter 12. This would be the case with new women and their children, as well as the growths and bases. The new mothers would still have the children no matter their marital state at the end of Part 1, but players are given a chance to give them a better father than they'd otherwise have. If they're defeated in battle, they're simply crippled and cannot be used again. The replacement characters would still keep their functions as replacement characters. I'm not changing that. But now they can also be actual units with viability and use outside of that brutal choice. 

Edited March 14, 2021 by Use the Falchion

[Lowgee]

23 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

Firstly, thanks for responding! Secondly, I am aware of the differences between FE4's generation system and the system in Awakening/Fates. Just because I haven't played FE 4 doesn't mean I'm entirely ignorant. I know the story, characters, and overall mechanics. I've read as much of the Oosawa manga I can find. I just haven't played the game. 

I'm also aware of the function of the replacement characters. It's like the replacement NPCs in Mass Effect 2 & 3. But Fire Emblem isn't like that anymore, and this is a change that can be made for the better. Many people (like myself) like supports, and if there are supports in the update (which a remake would be foolish to leave out), the idea that players will have to purposefully sacrifice better units to simply see those supports is a senseless one. 

So the compromise is that the new women would keep their original function while still being playable. Think of them like Chrom in Awakening - Chrom will always have a mother for Lucina, but players can choose a better mother than the Villager if players marry Chrom off by the epilogue of Chapter 12. This would be the case with new women and their children, as well as the growths and bases. The new mothers would still have the children no matter their marital state at the end of Part 1, but players are given a chance to give them a better father than they'd otherwise have. If they're defeated in battle, they're simply crippled and cannot be used again. The replacement characters would still keep their functions as replacement characters. I'm not changing that. But now they can also be actual units with viability and use outside of that brutal choice. 

"The idea that players will have to purposefully sacrifice better units to simply see those supports is a senseless one."

Personally speaking, I always enjoyed the way the pairing system worked in Genealogy. It encouraged replay value by letting Gen 2 play out in different ways based on who the father of each unit was. It had its flaws, sure, like the lack of supports making the Love system purely a gameplay function, and the different pairings being incredibly similar to each other in terms of gameplay (The choice between Finn and Alec is Miracle vs Nihil and whether or not the kid inherits swords), but the idea is there. Like Three Houses, I believe Genealogy isn't meant to be fully enjoyed in one playthrough; the only difference is that Genealogy doesn't lock plot details behind its replays.

That in mind, I think the replacement units as is only serve to help the replay value of the game; they are ostensibly new characters to see with new personalities, even though that isn't the case in practice. I think they really enrich a second playthrough, and changing them to be normal child units just means it's less special to get them on that second playthrough.

I understand that not everyone wants to have to play the game multiple times, but that quirkiness kind of gives Genealogy its charm, to me.

Even if you don't consider my last argument, the character of the replacement units, found in what little changes are made between theirs and the non-replacements' convos, is pretty tied into their replacement status. Most of them talk about how they feel inferior to Seliph because he has a much more prestigious role, or lament how they're not cut out for this grand campaign. Even if all of the child characters' mothers were commoners, the simple fact that their father could be someone like Lewyn, Azelle, Claud, etc. diminishes the value of their characterization. It wouldn't make much sense for a character to lament the limitations of their common birth while wiping out legions of enemies with Forseti.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Lowgee

[Use the Falchion]

21 minutes ago, Lowgee said:

I understand that not everyone wants to have to play the game multiple times, but that quirkiness kind of gives Genealogy its charm, to me.

I personally don't mind playing a game multiple times. That's what I do for most games I stick with. But I also have friends who would only play this once, if at all. Or imagine if you're a new player and you fall in love with the first generation and its characters and their romances. And then you meet their kids and fall in love with them as characters. And then you find out that there's a completely separate set of characters that you have to forego your ships and new favorites in order to get. That would tick a lot of newcomers off. You're not just killing off one cast as part of a game function, you're willingly throwing away a second cast as well. That's not going to sit right with a lot of poeple.

 

22 minutes ago, Lowgee said:

Even if you don't consider my last argument, the character of the replacement units, found in what little changes are made between theirs and the non-replacements' convos, is pretty tied into their replacement status. Most of them talk about how they feel inferior to Seliph because he has a much more prestigious role, or lament how they're not cut out for this grand campaign. Even if all of the child characters' mothers were commoners, the simple fact that their father could be someone like Lewyn, Azelle, Claud, etc. diminishes the value of their characterization. It wouldn't make much sense for a character to lament the limitations of their common birth while wiping out legions of enemies with Forseti.

That's a very fair point, but the reality is that many older players would already have an idea of who to pair with whom. The chances of these new mothers being paired with characters like Lewyn, Azelle, and Claud are small. That's why I posited the idea to add them. I expect players to pair Lex & Ayra, or Azelle & Tailtiu. I'm trying to look out for Alec and Noish and Midir (if he's not chosen) and Jamke. Characters who are usually left on the chopping block due to their lack of optimization. If players want to pair up Lex with one of the new mothers, great! Some variety has been added. If not, that works just as well.

As for their characterization, I think that can still be worked in with some interesting developments. In terms of the fathers, it all comes down to knowledge. If my research is correct, some of the replacement characters - heck, some of the general characters - don't know their parents or the status of them. Some don't know they even have siblings at first - heck, Laylea and Charlot never find out they're related. I think the same thing can happen here. The kids never really factor in their fathers because they never meet them. Maybe the mothers hid the relationship because their partners' death was too traumatic. (Not uncommon in sexual assault pregnancies) Maybe it was to keep them safe. (Standard fantasy trope lineage hiding.) Maybe they felt threatened by that way of life. (A not uncommon reaction when adopted children desire to seek out their biological family.) Any or all of these could be used to keep the kids in the dark. And even if they knew, they could still feel like commoners since they grew up as commoners with their commoner mothers. 

 

29 minutes ago, Lowgee said:

Like Three Houses, I believe Genealogy isn't meant to be fully enjoyed in one playthrough; the only difference is that Genealogy doesn't lock plot details behind its replays.

Wasn't Three Houses split because the developers thought people would choose one path and then talk about it with friends rather than actually playing all three paths? (I'm trying to find the source of this, but it's apocryphal at this moment. The closest I've gotten was a review where the developers said that the story can be fully found in one path...whether that means "play this one route for every answer" or "you can find a complete story in one path, so don't worry about it" is still murky.) 

Fire Emblem: Three Houses devs on inspirations, world-building, approach to Byleth, Dimitri's eyepatch, more - Page 2 of 3 - Nintendo Everything

 

40 minutes ago, Lowgee said:

That in mind, I think the replacement units as is only serve to help the replay value of the game; they are ostensibly new characters to see with new personalities, even though that isn't the case in practice. I think they really enrich a second playthrough, and changing them to be normal child units just means it's less special to get them on that second playthrough.

Again, fair point. But the shipping culture just isn't like that anymore, and a remake doesn't need to be beholden to the original way of thinking. The enrichment a second generation brings comes from the variety that the pairings of the first generation result in. Supports are a big part of this, and will continue to be so going forward. The enrichment will come from seeing new pairings, seeing those supports, and seeing how the children turn out. But to erase all of that for new characters that will objectively be worse isn't a good trade, especially if the new personalities aren't the case in practice or aren't as interesting as the other ones.

Would my changes be catering to newer fans? Absolutely. But I don't think it diminishes anything for older fans. If older fans want to do a replacement character run, that's still possible - the mothers don't have to be paired or even used to have their children. If players want to do a fully paired run and not use the replacement characters that show up, that's also possible! What I'm doing is trying to get rid of the "either-or" style of gameplay, because as much fun as it is for some, it strips away a major part of the fun of Modern Fire Emblem.

Remakes ideally bring the heart(gold) and soul(silver) of the original game to a modern time. They find the balance between the new and the old. They're a renovation that speaks to both generations. And the replacement characters as they functioned in the original game simply don't do that. 

So what do you do? Do you stay dogmatically loyal to the original game, as SoV did and was ultimately critiqued for? Do you update the features and gameplay, as the FFVII remake seems to have done? 

How would you cater to newcomers as well as old-school players with this feature?

 

[Jotari]

Basically doubling the size of the gen ii cast would also lead to a tonne of balance issues with Gen II. It's a game that's very much designed around the number of units you have. They'd need to have some kind of deployment limit which would just result in the replacement units being left to rot in the castle anyway.

[Use the Falchion]

30 minutes ago, Jotari said:

They'd need to have some kind of deployment limit which would just result in the replacement units being left to rot in the castle anyway.

That's a fair trade-off to me, since having too many units and not enough slots is a pretty standard issue for FE. Everyone has their units that are bench warmers, but it doesn't mean they like having those units die either. I believe players should be given the option of the units they want to use so they can choose their favorites.* Choosing who to pick for a battle is a far less stressful decision than choosing who to pick for an entire playthrough. Allow players to switch out which units they want to bring into battle at castles. Disgaea does something similar, allowing players to deposit and withdraw units on a map (up to a certain limit). The second generation can do the same thing here. If a new unit joins you while your count is maxed out, maybe have a prompt to send a unit back to a castle. (Since this may be used to get units in dangerous situations out of danger, maybe make it so that the unit recruited/replacing the unit sent back is automatically placed where the unit sent back was. So the danger isn't avoided and it's not a free Rescue.) I'm not sure if that would mean players could simply shortcut travel by having units basically teleport between castles, but that might be a tradeoff.

Heck, if that was the case and it was available to foot-locked units, maybe that could be used as a way to make them more viable. (This is an area where my lack of experience is a hindrance. I've heard and seen how people talk about infantry units in FE 4. I've seen some playthrough to get an idea, but I don't have that hands-on experience that would inform me if this would be a solid idea.)  

 

*With the obvious limitations of "no dead units" of course. 

[Jotari]

12 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

That's a fair trade-off to me, since having too many units and not enough slots is a pretty standard issue for FE. Everyone has their units that are bench warmers, but it doesn't mean they like having those units die either. I believe players should be given the option of the units they want to use so they can choose their favorites.* Choosing who to pick for a battle is a far less stressful decision than choosing who to pick for an entire playthrough. Allow players to switch out which units they want to bring into battle at castles. Disgaea does something similar, allowing players to deposit and withdraw units on a map (up to a certain limit). The second generation can do the same thing here. If a new unit joins you while your count is maxed out, maybe have a prompt to send a unit back to a castle. (Since this may be used to get units in dangerous situations out of danger, maybe make it so that the unit recruited/replacing the unit sent back is automatically placed where the unit sent back was. So the danger isn't avoided and it's not a free Rescue.) I'm not sure if that would mean players could simply shortcut travel by having units basically teleport between castles, but that might be a tradeoff.

Heck, if that was the case and it was available to foot-locked units, maybe that could be used as a way to make them more viable. (This is an area where my lack of experience is a hindrance. I've heard and seen how people talk about infantry units in FE 4. I've seen some playthrough to get an idea, but I don't have that hands-on experience that would inform me if this would be a solid idea.)  

 

*With the obvious limitations of "no dead units" of course. 

Replacement units don't die though, they just don't exist (though logically in canon they would, they just don't get wrapped up in the war in a meaningful way). And if people don't want their units dying then Genealogy is absolutely not the game for them. And just in general I don't really see any advantage of adding a bunch of units just for them to be bench warmers. which let's face it, they will be as by design most replacement units are meant to be worse than the eugenics breed super soldiers. If they are comparable then the whole point of breeding becomes lost. You say it's for the sake of supports, but you're  not going to be grinding supports for bench warming units, that's true of any Fire Emblem. And if they get supports just by sitting undeployed in the castle, then you have the opposite issue that plagues Three Houses wherein the game just gives you way too many supports to read through at any given time. I understand your sentiment, but Genealogy just isn't designed for the replacement units to exist at the same time as the child units. The replacement units are, essentially, an extra pairing for the child units eugenics system.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Jotari

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

11 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

I personally don't mind playing a game multiple times. That's what I do for most games I stick with. But I also have friends who would only play this once, if at all. Or imagine if you're a new player and you fall in love with the first generation and its characters and their romances. And then you meet their kids and fall in love with them as characters. And then you find out that there's a completely separate set of characters that you have to forego your ships and new favorites in order to get. That would tick a lot of newcomers off. You're not just killing off one cast as part of a game function, you're willingly throwing away a second cast as well. That's not going to sit right with a lot of poeple.

Why would people be ticked off? They just learned that the game they already really liked, has a bunch of extra content locked behind player choice. Now, I get that said "player choice" involves either killing people off, or leaving them unpaired - which may leave a bad taste in players' mouths. But this is a game about decisions and consequences - one where, try as Sigurd might, he's not able to save the ones he loves. And it's up to his son, and his allies' children, to succeed where he failed. A wish fulfillment playthrough where you can have all the characters in a given second Gen seems to run against the spirit of the game's message. Plus, as @Jotari brought up, the relatively tight casting in each Gen.

And it raises new questions. What if I get some of the default-mothers killed off? Do they get new substitutes, or none at all? What if I get all the mothers killed off? Am I stuck going through the second Generation with, what, six units? And how do the motives of some of those characters (Johan/Johalva, Ares, Hannibal) relate, without any child characters to play off of? The original kids-and-substitutes system had its own clarity of design, and even elegance to it, that I hope a remale will not disrupt.

[Guill0]

The way I could see subs and children existing in the same universe would be by tying the subs to a battalion (like having Jeanne's knights). And by using it supports with the battalion could be unlocked to upgrade it, with the added bonus of having a child support with his own substitute. And if the mother died in gen 1, the battalion would just be renamed to be impersonnal (to be something like Leonster's Knight)  but would still upgrade based on usage.

[Use the Falchion]

14 hours ago, Jotari said:

You say it's for the sake of supports, but you're  not going to be grinding supports for bench warming units, that's true of any Fire Emblem. And if they get supports just by sitting undeployed in the castle

You'd be surprised at how many people would still prefer that option.

 

14 hours ago, Jotari said:

which let's face it, they will be as by design most replacement units are meant to be worse than the eugenics breed super soldiers.

But with my change, they would have the option to be just as viable. Not everyone would play them that way, but they could be better than they were previously if one pairs the mothers up, even with someone without Holy Blood. 

 

14 hours ago, Jotari said:

And if people don't want their units dying then Genealogy is absolutely not the game for them.

Gonna be honest, I hate that mindset. It leads to the "if you don't like XYZ then you're not playing the game right" sort of mentality. I don't like or care for Casual mode, but I'd never tell someone who likes it that early FE games aren't for them, or that they're playing FE wrong. It may take them time to get used to a different style of play, but it's not that it isn't for them. IF PEOPLE FIND ENJOYMENT OUT OF A GAME, THEN THEY ARE PLAYING IT CORRECTLY. I doubt most developers plan their games with LTCs or speed-runs in mind, but for some, that is how the game is enjoyed. For others it's the collection aspect. For still more it's the roleplaying. 

 

14 hours ago, Jotari said:

Three Houses wherein the game just gives you way too many supports to read through at any given time

And apparently you'd be surprised at how many conversations there on Non-SForest threads where people complain about the lack of supports for certain characters. How many people complained about the lack of supports between the house leaders? Or their vassals? Or Ignatz & Bernie due to their shy natures and love of creative endeavors? Or Bernie and Ashe because they're hoodie buddies? Or Felix & Caspar? Imagine how much worse it would be if/when people find out that there's a whole separate cast that can't interact as a whole. 

And quite frankly, fans sometimes want a happy ending, where everybody lives. So long as the story makes sense, I don't think that's too big of a problem in this case. It's not like Fates where the Golden Ending was poorly done, nor is it like Three Houses where certain characters have irreconcilable differences at the point in the story where team ups would be pretty cool.* But in FE's second generation it's fine. The tragedy, the bitterness, comes from Sigurd's generation. Giving a little more sweetness to Seliph's generation's ending shouldn't be a problem. 

The problem isn't the cast or support size. People love interactions - it's why heist and ensemble movies are so fun, why the Mass Effect trilogy's characters are so beloved, and why the Avengers movies are so enjoyable. It's the quality of the supports. If the supports are done well, then people will always crave more. Fates' problem wasn't the fact that everyone could support everyone, it was the poor quality of supports due to repeated themes, quirks, or conversations and the controversial translations. I didn't need to hear about Nyx's curse every B support, or have Charlotte break character and be accepted every time. 

Supports are just tropes. And tropes are tools. Use them well, it doesn't matter how generic or stereotypical your story is, people will love it.

 

14 hours ago, Jotari said:

I understand your sentiment, but Genealogy just isn't designed for the replacement units to exist at the same time as the child units. The replacement units are, essentially, an extra pairing for the child units eugenics system.

And I understand yours, but I can't agree with it. Yes, replacement characters started out that way, but I don't believe that have to exclusively serve that purpose. A remake is a chance to expand upon ideas, to recontexualize themes, and to update mechanics to match the current state of the game and its fandom, not just repeat everything wholesale. Remakes should be seen as rare second chances. Or to maybe try a different metaphor: Sure, a rotary phone or a home phone was good 25 years ago, but now we have smart phones. Should I stick with a cable phone just because that's how phones were designed previously? 

 

Sure, Gilbert is there to replace Dedue if I don't do the latter's paralogue. But they don't take away Gilbert if I did - why can't the replacement units be something similar to that?

 

13 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Why would people be ticked off? They just learned that the game they already really liked, has a bunch of extra content locked behind player choice. Now, I get that said "player choice" involves either killing people off, or leaving them unpaired - which may leave a bad taste in players' mouths.

You answered your own question - it leaves a bad taste in players' mouths. To say "you have to forego your new favorite romance and new favorite character on the chance you can recruit another character" is neither a fun nor narratively exciting choice. It's not fun because you're letting part of your paired endings go. It's not narratively exciting because it doesn't change anything about the end story. Even Fates and Three Houses big "choose your side" decision ultimately change something about the story outside of which characters you recruit. This doesn't. It doesn't add emotional value to the story nor does it ultimately impact the narrative of the story, since Seliph and his relatives are the real change makers. So why keep it? 

And again, investment. Let's say the replacement characters function like they do in the original game. Let's say you've already beaten the game once, putting in roughly 40 hours of game time. So you hear that there's this second cast of characters that you can only meet if you leave your favorite couple Lex x Ayra/Brigid/Tailtiu unmarried. You don't like that choice, but you do it anyways. You put in 20-30 hours your precious time to replay this part of the game, get through scenes that hurt your heart, and unlock these replacements...and you find out they're terrible. Their characters are terrible, their growths, bases, and stats are terrible, and they're overall not worth the sacrifices you made. So what do you do? Do you stop playing and quit because the game is no longer fun because it asked you to put in an investment that was ultimately not worth it? Or do you ride it out and resolve to not do that again...assuming you replay this game in the first place because now your experience has been ruined? Chances are, many casual players won't replay the game a second time, assuming they finish that playthrough. They'll warn friends who get the game to stick with the main characters, and now the replacement characters are left out to dry again. 

 

13 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

But this is a game about decisions and consequences - one where, try as Sigurd might, he's not able to save the ones he loves. And it's up to his son, and his allies' children, to succeed where he failed. A wish fulfillment playthrough where you can have all the characters in a given second Gen seems to run against the spirit of the game's message.

Hard disagree here. I honestly think it'd help fulfill the message. Sigurd couldn't save his friends and allies. To have Seliph succeed where his father failed - which is a major component of the game's themes - would be perfectly in-line with the message. For Seliph to say "yes, I am able to save my friends because I'm not repeating my father's mistakes" doesn't have to be limited to a set amount of people. To have Seliph's allies fight alongside him, to say "we, noble and commoner, will fight hand-in-hand to bring justice to our land" would vindicate Sigurd's conquest in many ways.  

In terms of themes, the way I see it is that Seliph's job to break the cycles of the previous generation. I don't see how having multiple characters of all walks of life has any impact on that whatsoever. 

 

13 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

What if I get some of the default-mothers killed off? Do they get new substitutes, or none at all? What if I get all the mothers killed off? Am I stuck going through the second Generation with, what, six units? And how do the motives of some of those characters (Johan/Johalva, Ares, Hannibal) relate, without any child characters to play off of? The original kids-and-substitutes system had its own clarity of design, and even elegance to it, that I hope a remale will not disrupt.

I've actually mentioned it twice previously, but the mothers wouldn't be killed in battle. They'd retreat and turn into NPCs for all intents and purposes due to injuries taken.  It's like how certain units in Awakening/Three Houses will be "crippled" and not playable, but won't be killed even if defeated in battle. It's the same philosophy. The mothers would no longer be possible to pair off either, which means the replacement unit would have the "villager father," unless they were married beforehand.

 

If a main character and a replacement character originally had the same desire to be loyal vassals or whatnot to Ares, that's fine! I'd say keep that. Just work out how they'd go about it differently due to their differing backgrounds. Maybe one may feel like he has a chip on his shoulder and has to prove his worth ten times what the other does. Maybe the other feels like his bloodline gave him everything, and he has nothing of value to stand on his own; so now he's torn between what he wants to do (serve Ares) and what he feels like he must do to prove his worth (be his own man). Two simple concepts, two completely different characterizations, and a lot of room to play with. 

 

7 hours ago, Guill0 said:

The way I could see subs and children existing in the same universe would be by tying the subs to a battalion (like having Jeanne's knights). And by using it supports with the battalion could be unlocked to upgrade it, with the added bonus of having a child support with his own substitute. And if the mother died in gen 1, the battalion would just be renamed to be impersonnal (to be something like Leonster's Knight)  but would still upgrade based on usage.

I actually considered something like that! I ultimately decided against it since it felt like it was ultimately reducing characters to a cameo role at best. My philosophy was to give everyone the most amount of screentime and options without any added stress or taking away from any previous role; to find room for as many as I could at the proverbial table, so to speak. The replacement characters should still function as such if needed, but I don't believe they should be relegated to that role exclusively. (For the most part.)

 

*I'm still a fan of "Silver Routes," where one pre-selected house leader can join the players on their chosen route towards the end of the game...so long as they've reached a B support level with the route's house leader. But that's just me.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

3 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

I've actually mentioned it twice previously, but the mothers wouldn't be killed in battle. They'd retreat and turn into NPCs for all intents and purposes due to injuries taken.  It's like how certain units in Awakening/Three Houses will be "crippled" and not playable, but won't be killed even if defeated in battle. It's the same philosophy. The mothers would no longer be possible to pair off either, which means the replacement unit would have the "villager father," unless they were married beforehand.

Apparently this was an oversight on my end. My bad for missing it.

That said, I'm really not a fan of bringing "people don't die when they are killed" to Genealogy. It really bothers me that a series of life-and-death choices has, in many aspects, turned into life-or-retreat. I really like the newer games, don't get me wrong, but this is one aspect that, to bring back a turn of phrase, leaves a bad flavor in my mouth.

If I make a mistake that gets Ayra killed, I want her to stay dead. I don't want her children to exist. Maybe that's cruel, but I like the control. Removing the ability to get your units killed off, ironically, reduces the player's ability to influence the world of the game.

3 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

And again, investment. Let's say the replacement characters function like they do in the original game. Let's say you've already beaten the game once, putting in roughly 40 hours of game time. So you hear that there's this second cast of characters that you can only meet if you leave your favorite couple Lex x Ayra/Brigid/Tailtiu unmarried. You don't like that choice, but you do it anyways. You put in 20-30 hours your precious time to replay this part of the game, get through scenes that hurt your heart, and unlock these replacements...and you find out they're terrible. Their characters are terrible, their growths, bases, and stats are terrible, and they're overall not worth the sacrifices you made. So what do you do? Do you stop playing and quit because the game is no longer fun because it asked you to put in an investment that was ultimately not worth it? Or do you ride it out and resolve to not do that again...assuming you replay this game in the first place because now your experience has been ruined? Chances are, many casual players won't replay the game a second time, assuming they finish that playthrough. They'll warn friends who get the game to stick with the main characters, and now the replacement characters are left out to dry again. 

Terrible characters can be fun to use, though, because they increase the game's challenge level. Rather than having a Forseti user who can dodge any floorstomp any enemy, I have to make do with lesser tomes. On top of that, the replacement characters get a ton of unique interactions that distinguish them from their template children. And in some cases, they're the equal, or even superior, of the unit they're replacing.

I certainly wouldn't be disappointed to play through the game again and get the substitute characters. Some players might, but maybe they just want something different out of this game than I do?

[Use the Falchion]

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Apparently this was an oversight on my end. My bad for missing it.

It happens to all of us!

 

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

That said, I'm really not a fan of bringing "people don't die when they are killed" to Genealogy. It really bothers me that a series of life-and-death choices has, in many aspects, turned into life-or-retreat. I really like the newer games, don't get me wrong, but this is one aspect that, to bring back a turn of phrase, leaves a bad flavor in my mouth.

If I make a mistake that gets Ayra killed, I want her to stay dead. I don't want her children to exist. Maybe that's cruel, but I like the control. Removing the ability to get your units killed off, ironically, reduces the player's ability to influence the world of the game.

I totally understand that, and definitely sympathize. But I think for these characters it'd be a necessary sacrifice. To me the "life-or-retreat" means the same as "life-or-death" because I treat it the same. Unless I'm told explicitly that my characters won't die, like in the first two three-army battles in Three Houses, then I treat every loss as a death. But I also have friends who want to play FE but get major anxiety about losing units. "Life-or-retreat" is a solid compromise for them. In this case (unless the player is on Casual Mode), it's not like the mothers would be playable after battling. They wouldn't be able to use in any way, shape, or form. But since their children may be needed by players, they can't die in the story. 

 

57 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Some players might, but maybe they just want something different out of this game than I do?

For every player there's a different game style. I'm as much into the character aspect as I am into the discover and mixing and matching of units and classes and etc. One of my friends only cares about battles, and every other non-battle oriented addition is a distraction. One of my other friends is into the challenge and desires smarter A.I. for all of his games. He wants his wits and skills to be put to the test, not have to deal with a bunch of extremely buffed up units who will by bulldozing their way through. I have another friend who'd be into the game for the story and characters, and another who'd like to role-play along with the story. 

Some people like speedrunning games. Others are completionists. My idea was to give as many people as much material as they could on one run through while also finding a modern-day use for the replacement units. 

 

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Terrible characters can be fun to use, though, because they increase the game's challenge level. Rather than having a Forseti user who can dodge any floorstomp any enemy, I have to make do with lesser tomes.

Which is great and fine if you willingly go into these sorts of challenges. Shouldn't gameplay challenges be done with the foreknowledge of those seeking to overcome them? 

 

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I certainly wouldn't be disappointed to play through the game again and get the substitute characters.

It's a time-sink that some might not consider worth it halfway in; and many of my friends I mentioned above wouldn't give the game the time of day to meet the replacement characters. They'd beat the game and say "that was a good game" and move on to other games or things in their life. It won't be that it wasn't enjoyable, or that the idea of substitute characters wouldn't intrigue them, but they'd say "darn, I wish I could have met those characters in the main game," and move on. 

And It's one thing to know you're going to be using suboptimal units, it's another thing to discover you're going to be using them after sacrificing other characters you might like for them. And ultimately I don't think that's how many casual players play Fire Emblem. They play as much for the ships and romance as they do for the units, and the incentive of "there's a new cast of characters that may not be as good" isn't as enticing as "this different story route allows you to meet new characters AND recruit your favorites while also revealing different things about the world." The joy doesn't come from NOT pairing and seeing what happens, but seeing what pairs open up play styles for new units. Yes, this is the fault of Awakening and Fates. But since that's what people know and like, shouldn't any future FE game build on that in terms of mechanics? 

[Jotari]

7 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

You'd be surprised at how many people would still prefer that option.

 

But with my change, they would have the option to be just as viable. Not everyone would play them that way, but they could be better than they were previously if one pairs the mothers up, even with someone without Holy Blood. 

 

Gonna be honest, I hate that mindset. It leads to the "if you don't like XYZ then you're not playing the game right" sort of mentality. I don't like or care for Casual mode, but I'd never tell someone who likes it that early FE games aren't for them, or that they're playing FE wrong. It may take them time to get used to a different style of play, but it's not that it isn't for them. IF PEOPLE FIND ENJOYMENT OUT OF A GAME, THEN THEY ARE PLAYING IT CORRECTLY. I doubt most developers plan their games with LTCs or speed-runs in mind, but for some, that is how the game is enjoyed. For others it's the collection aspect. For still more it's the roleplaying. 

 

And apparently you'd be surprised at how many conversations there on Non-SForest threads where people complain about the lack of supports for certain characters. How many people complained about the lack of supports between the house leaders? Or their vassals? Or Ignatz & Bernie due to their shy natures and love of creative endeavors? Or Bernie and Ashe because they're hoodie buddies? Or Felix & Caspar? Imagine how much worse it would be if/when people find out that there's a whole separate cast that can't interact as a whole. 

And quite frankly, fans sometimes want a happy ending, where everybody lives. So long as the story makes sense, I don't think that's too big of a problem in this case. It's not like Fates where the Golden Ending was poorly done, nor is it like Three Houses where certain characters have irreconcilable differences at the point in the story where team ups would be pretty cool.* But in FE's second generation it's fine. The tragedy, the bitterness, comes from Sigurd's generation. Giving a little more sweetness to Seliph's generation's ending shouldn't be a problem. 

The problem isn't the cast or support size. People love interactions - it's why heist and ensemble movies are so fun, why the Mass Effect trilogy's characters are so beloved, and why the Avengers movies are so enjoyable. It's the quality of the supports. If the supports are done well, then people will always crave more. Fates' problem wasn't the fact that everyone could support everyone, it was the poor quality of supports due to repeated themes, quirks, or conversations and the controversial translations. I didn't need to hear about Nyx's curse every B support, or have Charlotte break character and be accepted every time. 

Supports are just tropes. And tropes are tools. Use them well, it doesn't matter how generic or stereotypical your story is, people will love it.

 

And I understand yours, but I can't agree with it. Yes, replacement characters started out that way, but I don't believe that have to exclusively serve that purpose. A remake is a chance to expand upon ideas, to recontexualize themes, and to update mechanics to match the current state of the game and its fandom, not just repeat everything wholesale. Remakes should be seen as rare second chances. Or to maybe try a different metaphor: Sure, a rotary phone or a home phone was good 25 years ago, but now we have smart phones. Should I stick with a cable phone just because that's how phones were designed previously? 

 

Sure, Gilbert is there to replace Dedue if I don't do the latter's paralogue. But they don't take away Gilbert if I did - why can't the replacement units be something similar to that?

 

You answered your own question - it leaves a bad taste in players' mouths. To say "you have to forego your new favorite romance and new favorite character on the chance you can recruit another character" is neither a fun nor narratively exciting choice. It's not fun because you're letting part of your paired endings go. It's not narratively exciting because it doesn't change anything about the end story. Even Fates and Three Houses big "choose your side" decision ultimately change something about the story outside of which characters you recruit. This doesn't. It doesn't add emotional value to the story nor does it ultimately impact the narrative of the story, since Seliph and his relatives are the real change makers. So why keep it? 

And again, investment. Let's say the replacement characters function like they do in the original game. Let's say you've already beaten the game once, putting in roughly 40 hours of game time. So you hear that there's this second cast of characters that you can only meet if you leave your favorite couple Lex x Ayra/Brigid/Tailtiu unmarried. You don't like that choice, but you do it anyways. You put in 20-30 hours your precious time to replay this part of the game, get through scenes that hurt your heart, and unlock these replacements...and you find out they're terrible. Their characters are terrible, their growths, bases, and stats are terrible, and they're overall not worth the sacrifices you made. So what do you do? Do you stop playing and quit because the game is no longer fun because it asked you to put in an investment that was ultimately not worth it? Or do you ride it out and resolve to not do that again...assuming you replay this game in the first place because now your experience has been ruined? Chances are, many casual players won't replay the game a second time, assuming they finish that playthrough. They'll warn friends who get the game to stick with the main characters, and now the replacement characters are left out to dry again. 

 

Hard disagree here. I honestly think it'd help fulfill the message. Sigurd couldn't save his friends and allies. To have Seliph succeed where his father failed - which is a major component of the game's themes - would be perfectly in-line with the message. For Seliph to say "yes, I am able to save my friends because I'm not repeating my father's mistakes" doesn't have to be limited to a set amount of people. To have Seliph's allies fight alongside him, to say "we, noble and commoner, will fight hand-in-hand to bring justice to our land" would vindicate Sigurd's conquest in many ways.  

In terms of themes, the way I see it is that Seliph's job to break the cycles of the previous generation. I don't see how having multiple characters of all walks of life has any impact on that whatsoever. 

 

I've actually mentioned it twice previously, but the mothers wouldn't be killed in battle. They'd retreat and turn into NPCs for all intents and purposes due to injuries taken.  It's like how certain units in Awakening/Three Houses will be "crippled" and not playable, but won't be killed even if defeated in battle. It's the same philosophy. The mothers would no longer be possible to pair off either, which means the replacement unit would have the "villager father," unless they were married beforehand.

 

If a main character and a replacement character originally had the same desire to be loyal vassals or whatnot to Ares, that's fine! I'd say keep that. Just work out how they'd go about it differently due to their differing backgrounds. Maybe one may feel like he has a chip on his shoulder and has to prove his worth ten times what the other does. Maybe the other feels like his bloodline gave him everything, and he has nothing of value to stand on his own; so now he's torn between what he wants to do (serve Ares) and what he feels like he must do to prove his worth (be his own man). Two simple concepts, two completely different characterizations, and a lot of room to play with. 

 

I actually considered something like that! I ultimately decided against it since it felt like it was ultimately reducing characters to a cameo role at best. My philosophy was to give everyone the most amount of screentime and options without any added stress or taking away from any previous role; to find room for as many as I could at the proverbial table, so to speak. The replacement characters should still function as such if needed, but I don't believe they should be relegated to that role exclusively. (For the most part.)

 

*I'm still a fan of "Silver Routes," where one pre-selected house leader can join the players on their chosen route towards the end of the game...so long as they've reached a B support level with the route's house leader. But that's just me.

I'm not saying people are playing the game incorrectly. What I'm saying is that Genealogy is a game in which your entire playable cast gets wiped out at one point. So it is not and never was a game that was designed to save everyone. And just mechanically your idea is unviable as the whole point is to have more supports which you just can't do if half of the entire cast is going to be benched. If this were a remake of Shadow Dragon where you didn't have to slaughter half your army to get Ymir and Horace then I'd be in complete agreement, but Genealogy is a very different game and is built the way it's built for a reason.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Jotari