I somehow thought Metodey and Randolph were the same character for way too long

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

He never says he didn't know Edelgard was there. Just acts sheepish when he faces her.

His dialogue says otherwise if anything. 

[Jotari]

15 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

His dialogue says otherwise if anything. 

If you want to read it that way. Here it is actually voiced though. Doesn't sound like he's being genuine to me.

 

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

If you want to read it that way. Here it is actually voiced though. Doesn't sound like he's being genuine to me.

 

I would actually question the face he's making and now I'm wondering if this is not yet another mistranslation by Treehouse.

[Jotari]

55 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I would actually question the face he's making and now I'm wondering if this is not yet another mistranslation by Treehouse.

The tone of the actor does indeed not really match the portrait. Japanese languages are a setting right? If so it wouldn't be too difficult to check to see how the original actor delivered that line. The hm-hm-hm certainly suggests there was some laughing there originally though. Though laughter can mean a lot of different things.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

The tone of the actor does indeed not really match the portrait. Japanese languages are a setting right? If so it wouldn't be too difficult to check to see how the original actor delivered that line. The hm-hm-hm certainly suggests there was some laughing there originally though. Though laughter can mean a lot of different things.

It's not the first time that Treehouse would screw a line up. 

[tirex367]

According to a data mine there is also another dialogue between them in this chapter.

Quote

Metodey
I can explain, really! Please, spare me!

 

Edelgard
You're pathetic. An enemy like you is hardly worth my time.

I that one used?

[Jotari]

35 minutes ago, tirex367 said:

According to a data mine there is also another dialogue between them in this chapter.

I that one used?

Definitely not used. And definitely suggests they're not collaborating.

[------]

I'm pretty sure Metodey showing up as the boss of that mission was just a Red Herring to make us think the Empire was after the chalice when it was really Aelfric. The thing is, we can't assume loyalty with Metodey because he has none. He's not a soldier, he's just some douche who kills people for whoever can cut him the biggest check. Before CS, we might only know him from the time Edelgard hired him, but in CS he's clearly doing the dirty work for someone else. Aelfric hired him to pull off a "fake hostage" deal so he could fool the Ashen Wolves into giving up the chalice, which of course goes sour thanks to Hapi. But nothing points to Edelgard wanting the chalice other than that Aelfric happened to hire the same merc she uses later on. Really, what would she even do with it? Outside of gameplay I mean lol

Also, random thought, but anyone else think Edelgard hired Metodey for the Holy Tomb because he's such a dick? She knows how strong Byleth and her students are, so she naturally assumes that whoever she hires won't survive the mission. So she gets the biggest scumbag she can find and hopes that he'll do his job and then do the world a favor by getting his sorry ass killed.

[Jotari]

28 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

I'm pretty sure Metodey showing up as the boss of that mission was just a Red Herring to make us think the Empire was after the chalice when it was really Aelfric. The thing is, we can't assume loyalty with Metodey because he has none. He's not a soldier, he's just some douche who kills people for whoever can cut him the biggest check. Before CS, we might only know him from the time Edelgard hired him, but in CS he's clearly doing the dirty work for someone else. Aelfric hired him to pull off a "fake hostage" deal so he could fool the Ashen Wolves into giving up the chalice, which of course goes sour thanks to Hapi. But nothing points to Edelgard wanting the chalice other than that Aelfric happened to hire the same merc she uses later on. Really, what would she even do with it? Outside of gameplay I mean lol

Also, random thought, but anyone else think Edelgard hired Metodey for the Holy Tomb because he's such a dick? She knows how strong Byleth and her students are, so she naturally assumes that whoever she hires won't survive the mission. So she gets the biggest scumbag she can find and hopes that he'll do his job and then do the world a favor by getting his sorry ass killed.

Well if one is an Edelgard supporter the party line is that she never intended to murder all her classmates in that one chapter... which highly dubious with Metody there. They really should have had that chapter be the other way round in Crimson Flower. Instead for reasons beyond my comprehension they had the choice come afterwards. I legitimately thought I'd done something wrong when I was going for my first Crimson Flower playthrough and the choice didn't come up before the battle. Because the thought of going through with the battle and having her activictively decide to betray the party and then siding with her makes so little sense I didn't consider it a possibility.

[------]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well if one is an Edelgard supporter the party line is that she never intended to murder all her classmates in that one chapter... which highly dubious with Metody there. They really should have had that chapter be the other way round in Crimson Flower. Instead for reasons beyond my comprehension they had the choice come afterwards. I legitimately thought I'd done something wrong when I was going for my first Crimson Flower playthrough and the choice didn't come up before the battle. Because the thought of going through with the battle and having her activictively decide to betray the party and then siding with her makes so little sense I didn't consider it a possibility.

I agree, that chapter was very poorly thought out. Especially since the Black Eagles version of it is the only one where the Flame Emperor reveal happens before the battle. Like, if they'd just done it the same way as the other two houses where she's unmasked at the end of the fight, the choice being afterwards would've made much more sense.

As for her intentions in the tomb, she wasn't trying to kill Byleth or any of the Black Eagles. That's why before the fight even starts, she tells them all to stay put and not interfere with the theft. She brought her soldiers and hired Metodey though, because she's well aware of the odds they won't listen to her. She doesn't want to kill any of them, but she knows she may be forced to. Also, even if for whatever reason the Eagles cooperate and let her take the stones, Rhea certainly won't. In which case she's definitely gonna want backup.

[Jotari]

7 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

I agree, that chapter was very poorly thought out. Especially since the Black Eagles version of it is the only one where the Flame Emperor reveal happens before the battle. Like, if they'd just done it the same way as the other two houses where she's unmasked at the end of the fight, the choice being afterwards would've made much more sense.

As for her intentions in the tomb, she wasn't trying to kill Byleth or any of the Black Eagles. That's why before the fight even starts, she tells them all to stay put and not interfere with the theft. She brought her soldiers and hired Metodey though, because she's well aware of the odds they won't listen to her. She doesn't want to kill any of them, but she knows she may be forced to. Also, even if for whatever reason the Eagles cooperate and let her take the stones, Rhea certainly won't. In which case she's definitely gonna want backup.

At that point it's basically like an abusive husband saying they don't want to hit his wife but she's making them. "I don't want to kill people, they just keep resisting when they don't do what I want them to." But even Edelgard's character aside, having the choice happen before the battle could have given us an Immcaulate One reveal that was much better in Crimson Flower. I've heard complaints about how they handle that moment in Crimson Flower where Rhea basically transforms in a still cg and then everyone's like "Oh no, we have to escape." Screen fade. "Oh my that was a close one." If they had the choice to join Edelgard happen before the actual chapter battle, then they could have just used Rhea's battle model of the Enlightened One half way through the chapter (with the soldiers here being the same ones you fight in Rhea's paralogue, which you can't do in Crimson Flower anyway I think) and then turned the chapter into an escape route. Much more gameplay story integration, an extra unique map from Crimson Flower and it could be done very cheaply as all the assets are there in the game already.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I'm sure I've commented on this before, but everything about the Holy Tomb fight in Chapter 11 screams that it was made with other routes in mind, not that one.

-Why doesn't Edelgard do more to either ensure that her classmates aren't even there, or to convert them ahead of time?

-Why doesn't Byleth get a choice before the fight?

-Why do the other Eagles happily agree to fight against their own emperor?

-Why does nobody talk about this event after the fight, on either SS or CF?

You can come up with semi-plausible explanations for some of these but the combination screams "yeah this was written for a route where you aren't playing as the Eagles" (at which point none of these issues come up, because there's no personal betrayal stake in Edelgard's actions for your party... except perhaps for Dimitri, which is addressed of course!). Oh well. I definitely agree it could have been done way better in a number of ways, certainly including @Jotari's idea of needing to escape from a super-charged Immaculate One... that sounds awesome actually. Rhea's lines after Byleth's 'betrayal' are absolutely amazing though and I definitely hope they'd find a way to keep them in even with the rewrites.

[------]

11 hours ago, Jotari said:

At that point it's basically like an abusive husband saying they don't want to hit his wife but she's making them. "I don't want to kill people, they just keep resisting when they don't do what I want them to."

No, it's literally robbery. Her goal in the tomb is to steal the stones, not to kill anybody. It's like when someone irl walks into the bank and says "Nobody move, or I'll shoot." They're not actually hoping to use the gun on anyone, they're carrying it for intimidation to make getting the money easier. That's exactly what robbery is. I'm not saying it wasn't a dirty move on Edelgard's part (that's what makes her an anti-hero, after all), but it's a hell of a lot better than comparing her to an abusive husband.

8 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'm sure I've commented on this before, but everything about the Holy Tomb fight in Chapter 11 screams that it was made with other routes in mind, not that one.

-Why doesn't Edelgard do more to either ensure that her classmates aren't even there, or to convert them ahead of time?

-Why doesn't Byleth get a choice before the fight?

-Why do the other Eagles happily agree to fight against their own emperor?

-Why does nobody talk about this event after the fight, on either SS or CF?

You can come up with semi-plausible explanations for some of these but the combination screams "yeah this was written for a route where you aren't playing as the Eagles" (at which point none of these issues come up, because there's no personal betrayal stake in Edelgard's actions for your party... except perhaps for Dimitri, which is addressed of course!). Oh well. I definitely agree it could have been done way better in a number of ways, certainly including @Jotari's idea of needing to escape from a super-charged Immaculate One... that sounds awesome actually. Rhea's lines after Byleth's 'betrayal' are absolutely amazing though and I definitely hope they'd find a way to keep them in even with the rewrites.

Agreed. The only route that actually did chapter 11 right was Azure Moon. The whole time I was playing that mission on my way to Crimson Flower, all I could think was "Why the hell am I even doing this?" The Immaculate One escape sounds like a much better idea, and it would flow perfectly into CF's version of chapter 12 where once again the roles are reversed. And even if they were too lazy to do a complete rewrite, just saving the "OMG it's Edelgard!" reveal until afterwards would've made all the difference as well. But I suppose in the end it doesn't really matter imo. I enjoy the rest of CF so much that I can forgive chapter 11 for its lazy writing.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, RainbowMoon said:

No, it's literally robbery. Her goal in the tomb is to steal the stones, not to kill anybody. It's like when someone irl walks into the bank and says "Nobody move, or I'll shoot." They're not actually hoping to use the gun on anyone, they're carrying it for intimidation to make getting the money easier. That's exactly what robbery is. I'm not saying it wasn't a dirty move on Edelgard's part (that's what makes her an anti-hero, after all), but it's a hell of a lot better than comparing her to an abusive husband.

Agreed. The only route that actually did chapter 11 right was Azure Moon. The whole time I was playing that mission on my way to Crimson Flower, all I could think was "Why the hell am I even doing this?" The Immaculate One escape sounds like a much better idea, and it would flow perfectly into CF's version of chapter 12 where once again the roles are reversed. And even if they were too lazy to do a complete rewrite, just saving the "OMG it's Edelgard!" reveal until afterwards would've made all the difference as well. But I suppose in the end it doesn't really matter imo. I enjoy the rest of CF so much that I can forgive chapter 11 for its lazy writing.

And then when people do move shooting them...and then trying to clear out the entire bank instead of calling it a botched job and retreating...and getting all the members of your gang killed. Edelgard can claim she's not there to hurt anyone, but that chapter is a really bad look for her, especially on Crimson Flower. She came there armed and prepared to kill the people she'd just been attending school with. The kiddie gloves were not on. She even brought demonic beasts (somehow).

Edited December 11, 2020 by Jotari

[------]

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

And then when people do move shooting them...and then trying to clear out the entire bank instead of calling it a botched job and retreating...and getting all the members of your gang killed. Edelgard can claim she's not there to hurt anyone, but that chapter is a really bad look for her, especially on Crimson Flower. She came there armed and prepared to kill the people she'd just been attending school with. The kiddie gloves were not on. She even brought demonic beasts (somehow).

She was armed and prepared to kill them, but had no desire to. That's all I was pointing out. I never tried to whitewash her actions in the Holy Tomb or argue that it wasn't a crappy thing to put her friends through. At that point in the story, Edelgard's basically resigned herself to the fact that by declaring war on the Church, she's making enemies of Byleth and all her classmates except Hubert. She knows that what she's about to do will endanger their lives, and so all she can hope is that it won't ever come to her being forced to kill them. Crimson Flower isn't even a thing she sees happening. Which is why on CF chapter 12, before leading them into battle against the Church, she takes the time and asks her classmates if they're sure they want to follow her and gives all of them the option to leave if they're having second thoughts.

It's up to you whether or not you can forgive Edelgard for chapter 11, but either way comparing her to a remorseless wife beater is hardly fair.

[Sooks]

On 12/10/2020 at 1:04 PM, RainbowMoon said:

I agree, that chapter was very poorly thought out. Especially since the Black Eagles version of it is the only one where the Flame Emperor reveal happens before the battle. Like, if they'd just done it the same way as the other two houses where she's unmasked at the end of the fight, the choice being afterwards would've made much more sense.

The problem with this is that in order to be fighting the flame emperor, Edelgard can’t really be in your party/deployable and I feel like that would kill the moment of realization since it goes from a “oh! Wow!” To a “huh.... oh?” kind of moment, if that makes sense.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

She was armed and prepared to kill them, but had no desire to. That's all I was pointing out. I never tried to whitewash her actions in the Holy Tomb or argue that it wasn't a crappy thing to put her friends through. At that point in the story, Edelgard's basically resigned herself to the fact that by declaring war on the Church, she's making enemies of Byleth and all her classmates except Hubert. She knows that what she's about to do will endanger their lives, and so all she can hope is that it won't ever come to her being forced to kill them. Crimson Flower isn't even a thing she sees happening. Which is why on CF chapter 12, before leading them into battle against the Church, she takes the time and asks her classmates if they're sure they want to follow her and gives all of them the option to leave if they're having second thoughts.

It's up to you whether or not you can forgive Edelgard for chapter 11, but either way comparing her to a remorseless wife beater is hardly fair.

Honestly I think trying to murder your friends is quite a bit worse than wife beating.

[Dark Holy Elf]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Honestly I think trying to murder your friends is quite a bit worse than wife beating.

Yeah, I agree, Byleth (and any Eagles you deploy there) trying to murder Edelgard in defence of property is really awful.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Yeah, I agree, Byleth (and any Eagles you deploy there) trying to murder Edelgard in defence of property is really awful.

She's the one on the offensive, just like a hypothetical bank robber. She's the one with the onus to retreat. Which she does. After she got a bunch of her soldiers killed and had no other choice. Could have saved a lot of lives by just doing that in the first place Elgy. Poor innocent soul Metody dying due to incompetent leadership. Byleth and co are completely justified in trying to stop Edelagrd, unless you think people charged with defending things should let armed people walk around doing and taking whatever they want so long as they only kill people who resist them.

Now alternatively if you're argument is that Byleth and co have no horse in the race and have no reason to protect the holy tomb just because Rhea told them to then, yes, absolutely yes, standing back and letting Edelgard do her thing absolutely should have been the choice. That's my entire point. It just makes no sense that in one scene Edelgard can personally carve in Bernie's head with an axe and in the next Dorothea and Ferdinand can just be all "Yes, I think she has our best interests in mind." There's really just no good reason to have  Edelgard as a boss here in Crimson Flower and I'm quite baffled that's the route they chose to take things rather than have the choice before hand. They could have cut the chapter entirely and make Crimson Flower's chapter count even smaller than the rest of the routes and it would have been a better decision than what they ended up going with, at least for the logic of the plot.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Jotari

[Dark Holy Elf]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Byleth and co are completely justified in trying to stop Edelagrd, unless you think people charged with defending things should let armed people walk around doing and taking whatever they want so long as they only kill people who resist them.

It's incredibly cruel and nasty, and I dare say immoral, to try to kill your student or friend in defence of property (not even your own property! Gotta lick that boot). I certainly couldn't do it, and would be uncomfortable around people who say they would. If anything I have more sympathy for someone who would tell their friends "stand down, I'm taking this, stay out of my way or I will hurt you" because they can reasonably believe that their actions have a high probability of not hurting their friends (since most non-psychopaths do not, in fact, try to kill their friend in defence of their boss's property). They're a bad person too, of course, since a high probability is not 100% (and both theft and threats of violence are bad, obviously), but less so IMO

(Incidentally, in the case of the bank robber, the goal is to arrest them without killing them, and I daresay that given the choice between the bank robber getting away and getting a bullet to the head, I'd rather see the former. In the case of actual bank robberies the recommended practice is indeed to let them take what they want, and have trained experts try to apprehend them safely later.)

Generally agreed with your second paragraph though. There's obviously a bit of gameplay-story segregation there and I'd say the story if anything implies that Edelgard didn't fight any of the Eagles directly buuut it's still stupid that you even can, or that the fight even exists in its current form, for sure.

[Jotari]

30 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

It's incredibly cruel and nasty, and I dare say immoral, to try to kill your student or friend in defence of property (not even your own property! Gotta lick that boot). I certainly couldn't do it, and would be uncomfortable around people who say they would. If anything I have more sympathy for someone who would tell their friends "stand down, I'm taking this, stay out of my way or I will hurt you" because they can reasonably believe that their actions have a high probability of not hurting their friends (since most non-psychopaths do not, in fact, try to kill their friend in defence of their boss's property). They're a bad person too, of course, since a high probability is not 100% (and both theft and threats of violence are bad, obviously), but less so IMO

(Incidentally, in the case of the bank robber, the goal is to arrest them without killing them, and I daresay that given the choice between the bank robber getting away and getting a bullet to the head, I'd rather see the former. In the case of actual bank robberies the recommended practice is indeed to let them take what they want, and have trained experts try to apprehend them safely later.)

Generally agreed with your second paragraph though. There's obviously a bit of gameplay-story segregation there and I'd say the story if anything implies that Edelgard didn't fight any of the Eagles directly buuut it's still stupid that you even can, or that the fight even exists in its current form, for sure.

Well Byleth and co do manage to detain Edelgard without killing her at the end of the chapter (no confirmation on any of her soldiers though). Then Rhea orders Byleth to kill her. If your  units do fight and have their HP reduce to 0 against Edelgard they are absolutely dead however. And Edelgard did not say to her soldiers "disarm anyone who stands in your way", she literally gives the orders to her soldiers (including Metody who does come across as an aforementioned psychopath) to outright kill anyone who tries to stop them.

[------]

12 hours ago, Jotari said:

Now alternatively if you're argument is that Byleth and co have no horse in the race and have no reason to protect the holy tomb just because Rhea told them to then, yes, absolutely yes, standing back and letting Edelgard do her thing absolutely should have been the choice. That's my entire point. It just makes no sense that in one scene Edelgard can personally carve in Bernie's head with an axe and in the next Dorothea and Ferdinand can just be all "Yes, I think she has our best interests in mind." There's really just no good reason to have  Edelgard as a boss here in Crimson Flower and I'm quite baffled that's the route they chose to take things rather than have the choice before hand. They could have cut the chapter entirely and make Crimson Flower's chapter count even smaller than the rest of the routes and it would have been a better decision than what they ended up going with, at least for the logic of the plot.

Okay, first of all, Byleth and co don't have any horse in the race. Byleth, and by extension her class, is literally Rhea's blunt killing tool all throughout White Clouds. Every month from chapter 2 onward, Rhea's said "Go chop this guy's head off" and Byleth does. Outside of paralogues, there's never an instance of "What does Byleth/Dorothea/Ingrid/whoever want?" And so there's no reason it should be any different in chapter 11. Byleth and co are protecting the stones simply because Rhea said so. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if half the class didn't even know what the stones are or why they're important.

And second, you're applying gameplay to a discussion about story. Canonically, all the Black Eagles survive chapter 11. If we're talking about story then only story deaths (Jeralt, Rodrigue, etc.) matter. It's not fair to say "Well what if Bernie dies?" when she can literally die at any point on any route and everyone just acts like she never existed.

15 hours ago, Jotari said:

Honestly I think trying to murder your friends is quite a bit worse than wife beating.

Already explained why this isn't true. Not doing it again.

12 hours ago, Jotari said:

Poor innocent soul Metody dying due to incompetent leadership.

What the hell is this even supposed to mean? You're obviously being sarcastic, but doesn't that weaken your argument a smidge since Metodey dying is obviously a good thing (and possibly even intentional on Edelgard's part)?

10 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

It's incredibly cruel and nasty, and I dare say immoral, to try to kill your student or friend in defence of property (not even your own property! Gotta lick that boot). I certainly couldn't do it, and would be uncomfortable around people who say they would. If anything I have more sympathy for someone who would tell their friends "stand down, I'm taking this, stay out of my way or I will hurt you" because they can reasonably believe that their actions have a high probability of not hurting their friends (since most non-psychopaths do not, in fact, try to kill their friend in defence of their boss's property). They're a bad person too, of course, since a high probability is not 100% (and both theft and threats of violence are bad, obviously), but less so IMO

(Incidentally, in the case of the bank robber, the goal is to arrest them without killing them, and I daresay that given the choice between the bank robber getting away and getting a bullet to the head, I'd rather see the former. In the case of actual bank robberies the recommended practice is indeed to let them take what they want, and have trained experts try to apprehend them safely later.)

Generally agreed with your second paragraph though. There's obviously a bit of gameplay-story segregation there and I'd say the story if anything implies that Edelgard didn't fight any of the Eagles directly buuut it's still stupid that you even can, or that the fight even exists in its current form, for sure.

I have to say, this is absolutely spot-on. Perfectly explains why I (and many others) can sympathize with Edelgard even after what went down in the tomb.

What this really boils down to, @Jotari, is that I see Edelgard's actions in the holy tomb as forgivable and you don't. And that's fine, but you're not gonna change my opinion and I'm not gonna change yours. So let's just put the argument aside and agree to disagree on this.

[Dark Holy Elf]

10 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well Byleth and co do manage to detain Edelgard without killing her at the end of the chapter (no confirmation on any of her soldiers though). Then Rhea orders Byleth to kill her. If your  units do fight and have their HP reduce to 0 against Edelgard they are absolutely dead however.

Not true. Even on Classic, anyone who falls in that fight (or any other Part 1 fight) can be seen in subsequent chapters alive and well, just no longer usable in combat. And while this is a slight tangent, I'd say Casual is pretty clearly the canon mode in 3H, even if I never play it myself. In Classic we get potential situations like Claude whimiscally talking about the gang all being back together even if all the other Deer die in Chapter 13. (The game is willing to address situations where enemies die, like Dorothea talking about Ferdinand after Myrddin, but never your own units to my knowledge.)

Aside from that, I am also for agreeing to disagree at this point.

[Sooks]

16 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Yeah, I agree, Byleth (and any Eagles you deploy there) trying to murder Edelgard in defence of property is really awful.

I mean we don’t know if they specifically were trying to kill Edelgard and not just stop her, since dying in this game doesn’t actually kill you.

[omegaxis1]

12 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well Byleth and co do manage to detain Edelgard without killing her at the end of the chapter (no confirmation on any of her soldiers though). Then Rhea orders Byleth to kill her. If your  units do fight and have their HP reduce to 0 against Edelgard they are absolutely dead however. And Edelgard did not say to her soldiers "disarm anyone who stands in your way", she literally gives the orders to her soldiers (including Metody who does come across as an aforementioned psychopath) to outright kill anyone who tries to stop them.

She also states when she fights a Black Eagle Student in the BE route that she wasn't actually serious when she said that. Add in that none of the students actually die, and in Silver Snow, any defeated units are said to have joined her still, it basically means that she kept to what she said, that none of them would die, but she claimed they would in an effort to scare them.