I somehow thought Metodey and Randolph were the same character for way too long

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

And thus, you answered your own question.

Neither were fully right or wrong. Both did something and ultimately, they let that be water under the bridge. 

By no accounts should Edelgard apologize for her actions, nor should they ask for forgiveness for not understanding the situation. 

 

No. That doesn't mean water under the bridge. It means a tonne of water over the bridge that needs to be addressed. If I cut off your arm and you cut off my arm that doesn't make us even in anything short of an absurdist comedy. It means there's feelings and emotions that very much should be addressed. And that's even taking the stance that the Black Eagles were some how in the wrong for trying to stop Edelgard from forcibly stealing loads of stuff.

Edited December 14, 2020 by Jotari

[Slyfox]

36 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

 

If I respond to the rest of said post, will you respond to mine? I'm getting a bit tired of both you and Jotari trying to tapdance around the fact that coming to potentially lethal blows with your friend in defence of property is messed up. If you aren't willing to address what I consider the core issue here, I'm also quite fine with just agreeing to disagree.

I don't see why I deserve your ire. Today is the first time I decided to participate in this thread, so please don't take your anger out on me. If I offended you, I apologize for that. I may say some more things that may offend you again, but I mean no ill will.

To me, life is the most precious thing on this earth. In a robbery, I would absolutely stand aside. Still, no matter what decision is taken by the victim and no matter the oucome, I will consider the robbers to be in the wrong. I don't think robbing a bank is the correct analogy. It's robbing a gun store. They are stealing weapons and threatening you while they are at it. They have known ties to numerous deaths. Maybe they just want to display those weapons on their mantlepiece, but that's a silly assumption to make. They probably intend on using those weapons on others. So now it becomes a matter of being willing to kill in order to prevent others from dying later on.

As for the below quote:

36 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Well, as you went on to say yourself, the party has no way of knowing this (which neatly allows us to sidestep debates on the morality of the war itself, thank goodness). You're basically saying the party should have prejudged Edelgard's actions as greater evil than mere theft, to the point that they're willing to risk their own lives (and hers) to stop her. Despite the fact that she's their friend. Despite the fact that several of them would likely feel some degree of loyalty to the emperor and a strong aversion to fighting soldiers of their own country (and one of the two most likely exceptions dislikes the church). Despite the fact that the person ordering them to "destroy this villainous traitor" is someone several of them have previously voiced explicit distrust of. And of course, they do so without even the slightest bit of soul-searching. I don't buy it, myself. It's very clearly lazy writing to let the battle play out as it does on BL/GD.

Also, for what it's worth, Hubert does pointedly call Edelgard as Your Majesty before the fight, identifying her as the emperor.

Regarding the bolded statement:

Yes, exactly that. All the evidence they have against the Flame Emperor shows Edelgard in a very bad light, whether true or not, as I have mentioned before. So this is beyond robbery now. They don't want another Remire incident in the future (neither does Edelgard, but again, her fellow Black Eagles don't know this yet).

As for the rest of the quote, that falls more into loyalty, personality, feelings, etc. It's more ambiguous how they would act if we go by those guidelines.

 

For me, I believe that the Black Eagles would fight Edelgard in this instance, even when factoring in their personalities and whatnot. Black Eagles in CF would have been better served by a group of students on the same lines as Blue Lions, where loyalty to the crown is seemingly placed in higher regard.

Edited December 14, 2020 by Slyfox

[Jotari]

8 minutes ago, Slyfox said:

I don't see why I deserve your ire. Today is the first time I decided to participate in this thread, so please don't take your anger out on me. If I offended you, I apologize for that. I may say some more things that may offend you again, but I mean no ill will.

To me, life is the most precious thing on this earth. In a robbery, I would absolutely stand aside. Still, no matter what decision is taken by the victim and no matter the oucome, I will consider the robbers to be in the wrong. I don't think robbing a bank is the correct analogy. It's robbing a gun store. They are stealing weapons and threatening you while they are at it. They have known ties to numerous deaths. Maybe they just want to display those weapons on their mantlepiece, but that's a silly assumption to make. They probably intend on using those weapons on others. So now it becomes a matter of being willing to kill in order to prevent others from dying later on.

As for the below quote:

Regarding the bolded statement:

Yes, exactly that. All the evidence they have against the Flame Emperor shows Edelgard in a very bad light, whether true or not, as I have mentioned before. So this is beyond robbery now. They don't want another Remire incident in the future (neither does Edelgard, but again, her fellow Black Eagles don't know this yet).

As for the rest of the quote, that falls more into loyalty, personality, feelings, etc. It's more ambiguous how they would act if we go by those guidelines.

 

For me, I believe that the Black Eagles would fight Edelgard in this instance, even when factoring in their personalities and whatnot. Black Eagles in CF would have been better served by a group of students on the same lines as Blue Lions, where loyalty to the crown is seemingly placed in higher regard.

I'm not sure weapon shop is the best analogy. I don't think they knew the crest stones could be used as weapons at that point. A church would probably be the best analogy. But really IMO it doesn't matter what they're trying to steal (though of course stealing weapons that are intended to be used on people is worse). The fact that it's not theirs and they're threatening to kill people to get it means people with the authority and capability to stop them (which Byleth and co are) have reason to. If not then that's basically give carte blanche for anyone to do anything they want so long as they back it up with "If you try to stop me I'll murder you."

Edited December 14, 2020 by Jotari

[Slyfox]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

I'm not sure weapon shop is the best analogy. I don't think they knew the crest stones could be used as weapons at that point. A church would probably be the best analogy. But really IMO it doesn't matter what they're trying to steal (though of course stealing weapons that are intended to be used on people is worse). The fact that it's not there's and they're threatening to kill people to get it means people with the authority and capability to stop them (which Byleth and co are) have reason to. If not then that's basically give carte blanche for anyone to do anything they want so long as they back it up with "If you try to stop me I'll murder you."

It's not the best, no. That said, given that it's the Flame Emperor, I'm sure their first thoughts aren't "oh, Edelgard is just going to bury these elsewhere". It's more like "I don't know what she'll do with these, but it's probably going to be bad".

[omegaxis1]

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

No. That doesn't mean water under the bridge. It means a tonne of water over the bridge that needs to be addressed. If I cut off your arm and you cut off my arm that doesn't make us even in anything short of an absurdist comedy. It means there's feelings and emotions that very much should be addressed. And that's even taking the stance that the Black Eagles were some how in the wrong for trying to stop Edelgard from forcibly stealing loads of stuff.

No no no. You don't get to go about arguing about that kind of logic when at the end of the situation, they all realize that they are about to enter into war. There's no such thing as trying to force Edelgard to suddenly bow out an apology because she can't explain that the archbishop is a crazy dragon in disguise. 

Fact of the matter is, what you are trying to demand of Edelgard is over a case of petty dispute when the result is that Edelgard ultimately showed zero intention of actually harming them. 

Quote

Edelgard: Despite what I said, I have no intention of killing you. So why not stand down and get out of my way?

Fact of the matter is, Edelgard has no reason to apologize. By the end of the incident of the Holy Tomb, every Black Eagles member and other party member realizes that Edelgard was someone that bore the burden of the truth of a serious secret, and they are about to go into a war against the Church. 

Trying to say, "You owe us an apology because you tried to raid a tomb, despite how us trying to stop you nearly got you killed." 

Like, no. 

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

No no no. You don't get to go about arguing about that kind of logic when at the end of the situation, they all realize that they are about to enter into war. There's no such thing as trying to force Edelgard to suddenly bow out an apology because she can't explain that the archbishop is a crazy dragon in disguise. 

Fact of the matter is, what you are trying to demand of Edelgard is over a case of petty dispute when the result is that Edelgard ultimately showed zero intention of actually harming them. 

Fact of the matter is, Edelgard has no reason to apologize. By the end of the incident of the Holy Tomb, every Black Eagles member and other party member realizes that Edelgard was someone that bore the burden of the truth of a serious secret, and they are about to go into a war against the Church. 

Trying to say, "You owe us an apology because you tried to raid a tomb, despite how us trying to stop you nearly got you killed." 

Like, no. 

I think bringing demonic beasts and sicking them on the class is a very much above zero intention of harming them. They were very much in real danger. That is inarguable. If you argue otherwise then we're at Corrin taser sword levels of writing which is frankly worse.

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Jotari said:

I think bringing demonic beasts and sicking them on the class is a very much above zero intention of harming them. They were very much in real danger. That is inarguable. If you argue otherwise then we're at Corrin taser sword levels of writing which is frankly worse.

They weren't in danger if they didn't intervene. Again, Edelgard is their friend. Saying that Edelgard is committing banditry is not a justifiable reason to fight against her, especially when they oughta be aware that any effort to do so means putting their lives at potential risk, and more importantly, if they win, Rhea would undoubtedly order Edelgard's execution, given how that's Rhea's MO when it comes to anyone that dares to oppose the Church. 

[Jotari]

10 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

They weren't in danger if they didn't intervene. Again, Edelgard is their friend. Saying that Edelgard is committing banditry is not a justifiable reason to fight against her, especially when they oughta be aware that any effort to do so means putting their lives at potential risk, and more importantly, if they win, Rhea would undoubtedly order Edelgard's execution, given how that's Rhea's MO when it comes to anyone that dares to oppose the Church. 

Not a justifiable reason? They've been fighting bandits, enemies of the church and associates of the Flame Emperor all game. In this scenario she's all three simultaneously. Would you also say they had no motivation or justifiable reason hunting down and fighting Kostas in Chapter 2? Or the Thieves in the Mausoleum in Chapter 4?

Edited December 14, 2020 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Jotari said:

Not a justifiable reason? They've been fighting bandits, enemies of the church and associates of the Flame Emperor all game. In this scenario she's all three simultaneously.

You  forget the biggest difference. 

Edelgard is their FRIEND.

She's not JUST some bandit. Not simply someone that is their enemy. She's a friend. Someone that they've spent time with for a while and got to know, and have fun together. Yeah, it's a shock to learn that she is the Flame Emperor, who is suspected to be in cahoots with people that are their enemy, but even then, that's not suddenly a case where they can suddenly just jump in and fight Edelgard as if she's an enemy. 

And Edelgard even asked them to not interfere, with the added threat that if they do, they will be putting their lives at risk. 

It's a case where the BE students have legitimate reason to just let her take the Crest Stones and be on their way. 

 

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

You  forget the biggest difference. 

Edelgard is their FRIEND.

She's not JUST some bandit. Not simply someone that is their enemy. She's a friend. Someone that they've spent time with for a while and got to know, and have fun together. Yeah, it's a shock to learn that she is the Flame Emperor, who is suspected to be in cahoots with people that are their enemy, but even then, that's not suddenly a case where they can suddenly just jump in and fight Edelgard as if she's an enemy. 

And Edelgard even asked them to not interfere, with the added threat that if they do, they will be putting their lives at risk. 

It's a case where the BE students have legitimate reason to just let her take the Crest Stones and be on their way. 

 

Yes, Edelgard is their friend. Which is why it's really uncool of her to order to put them in a situation where their lives are in real danger without their consent.

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Not a justifiable reason? They've been fighting bandits, enemies of the church and associates of the Flame Emperor all game. In this scenario she's all three simultaneously.

You might as well give it up. They'll defend Edelgard to their dying breath even when it's pretty obvious she's in the wrong here.

And yes, the person bringing an army into a place to rob it is in the wrong. Period. Hard stop. You know what happens to those people if they go around threatening other armies? They get killed. If they take hostages you know what happens to them? They get sniped! There is no realistic situation here where the people guarding a place, whose job it is to guard a place wouldn't or shouldn't step in. And frankly no matter what she says after the fact about not meaning it, the fact that she said it in the first place with the army including demonic beasts to back her up carries a whole hell of a lot more weight.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Yes, Edelgard is their friend. Which is why it's really uncool of her to order to put them in a situation where their lives are in real danger without their consent.

Just as it's uncool of them to try and stop her and put her in danger at Rhea's hand. 

Like, the BE students all literally expressed their fear of Rhea's harsh punishment to anyone that dares to oppose her. 

Just now, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

You might as well give it up. They'll defend Edelgard to their dying breath even when it's pretty obvious she's in the wrong here.

And yes, the person bringing an army into a place to rob it is in the wrong. Period. Hard stop. You know what happens to those people if they go around threatening other armies? They get killed. If they take hostages you know what happens to them? They get sniped! There is no realistic situation here where the people guarding a place, whose job it is to guard a place wouldn't or shouldn't step in. And frankly no matter what she says after the fact about not meaning it, the fact that she said it in the first place with the army including demonic beasts to back her up carries a whole hell of a lot more weight.

It isn't the BE students' job to defend the Holy Tomb. They aren't actually part of the Church. If anything, the fact that they are people of the Empire would mean that they have more of an obligation to stand down, as Edelgard is their Emperor.

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

Just now, omegaxis1 said:

It isn't the BE students' job to defend the Holy Tomb. They aren't actually part of the Church. If anything, the fact that they are people of the Empire would mean that they have more of an obligation to stand down, as Edelgard is their Emperor.

It's Byleth's as an employee of Garreg Mach and they follow their instructor. The game proves over and over that they have more loyalty to Byleth than Edelgard or Rhea, be that to the game's detriment.

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

It's Byleth's as an employee of Garreg Mach and they follow their instructor. The game proves over and over that they have more loyalty to Byleth than Edelgard or Rhea, be that to the game's detriment.

As you said, that the game's detriment. 

But your and @Jotari's arguments that Edelgard owes some kind of apology for it after is just silly. Like, no, she doesn't owe any apology for that, because in the end, the one that chose to fight her was them. Byleth and the BE students fought her, and when at the end, Byleth chose to defend her, everyone then saw that Rhea go crazy and express the desire to kill. 

 

[Ottservia]

9 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

And yes, the person bringing an army into a place to rob it is in the wrong. Period. Hard stop. You know what happens to those people if they go around threatening other armies? They get killed. If they take hostages you know what happens to them? They get sniped! There is no realistic situation here where the people guarding a place, whose job it is to guard a place wouldn't or shouldn't step in. And frankly no matter what she says after the fact about not meaning it, the fact that she said it in the first place with the army including demonic beasts to back her up carries a whole hell of a lot more weight.

Thematically speaking? Not necessarily. Frankly Edelgard not apologizing after the fact is the least of the story’s problems but that’s besides the point. Even so the decision to side with Edelgard after the fact is just that, a decision. If Byleth chooses to side with her in that moment you’ve pretty much already forgiven her for what she’s done and as the students follow Byleth they pretty much do the same. Not siding with her means no one forgives her. Her apologizing is more so a formality at that point. 

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

9 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Also, for what it's worth, Hubert does pointedly call Edelgard as Your Majesty before the fight, identifying her as the emperor.

Does Hubert appear before the fight? He's not fought on the map. But even so, this is before any public declaration of Edelgard's coronation has come out. So they might not understand the gravity of his words. Or they might disbelieve him.

9 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Well, as you went on to say yourself, the party has no way of knowing this (which neatly allows us to sidestep debates on the morality of the war itself, thank goodness). You're basically saying the party should have prejudged Edelgard's actions as greater evil than mere theft, to the point that they're willing to risk their own lives (and hers) to stop her. Despite the fact that she's their friend. Despite the fact that several of them would likely feel some degree of loyalty to the emperor and a strong aversion to fighting soldiers of their own country (and one of the two most likely exceptions dislikes the church). Despite the fact that the person ordering them to "destroy this villainous traitor" is someone several of them have previously voiced explicit distrust of. And of course, they do so without even the slightest bit of soul-searching. I don't buy it, myself. It's very clearly lazy writing to let the battle play out as it does on BL/GD.

Let's consider both sides of this coin, though. Edelgard reveals herself to be the Flame Emperor, someone who - to the best of their knowledge - is responsible for the kidnapping of Flayn, and the killing of Jeralt. How can they trust her, after what she's done, and who she's associated with? She was supposed to be their friend, yet she led a secret double life, in opposition to them! How do they know the Crest Stones won't be used to perpetrate a second Remire? At the very least, the other Black Eagles would likely want answers, and Edelgard isn't in a position to provide any. While they have loyalty to the Empire, they also have responsibilities as students of the Officer's Academy - and even if they don't trust Rhea right now, they probably trust their Professor more than Edelgard at this point.

I agree that her classmates are in a tough position, and that there's a certain degree of whiplash, especially on CF - going from siding with Edelgard, to fighting her, to supporting her again. And I share the view that it shouldn't play out as it did on BL/GD - as I proposed, I think a better plan would be for Edelgard and Hubert to use the Holy Tomb visit to gather intel, which they could later use for a furtive break-in. Of course, that doesn't allow for a dramatic or cool battle.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Does Hubert appear before the fight? He's not fought on the map. But even so, this is before any public declaration of Edelgard's coronation has come out. So they might not understand the gravity of his words. Or they might disbelieve him.

Edelgard called herself the Adrestian Emperor as well when she commanded the troops to steal the Crest Stones. 

Quote

Edelgard: I'm sorry, my teacher. I cut this path, and now I must follow it. My friends, I ask that all of you stay back. It is not my intention to fight you. (to her troops) By order of the Adrestian emperor, Edelgard von Hresvelg, I command you to collect the Crest Stones! If anyone attempts to stop us, kill them!

They wouldn't have any reason to disbelieve it. I think only Byleth knew it at the time since he attended her coronation.

3 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

And I share the view that it shouldn't play out as it did on BL/GD - as I proposed, I think a better plan would be for Edelgard and Hubert to use the Holy Tomb visit to gather intel, which they could later use for a furtive break-in. Of course, that doesn't allow for a dramatic or cool battle.

It feels weird overall that the Holy Tomb even had such a raid all of a sudden. Doesn't even seem like the Crest Stones were even necessary to her. In GD, she even claims that she got what she was there for, even if she failed to get a single Crest Stone. 

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

20 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Edelgard called herself the Adrestian Emperor as well when she commanded the troops to steal the Crest Stones. 

Thank you for the example - as it provides the nail-in-the-coffin to "Edelgard is their friend"! After all, what kind of friend wouldn't invite her classmates to her own coronation? I don't see Bernadetta ever forgiving Edelgard for not saving her a slice of cake, at least! And before anyone siezes on this as a serious argument, it's a jest.

23 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

It feels weird overall that the Holy Tomb even had such a raid all of a sudden. Doesn't even seem like the Crest Stones were even necessary to her. In GD, she even claims that she got what she was there for, even if she failed to get a single Crest Stone. 

Yeah, this is confusing. Hanneman speculates that Edelgard was after the Crest Stones to create Demonic Beasts - and the game doesn't de-confirm this. But during the assault on Garreg Mach (in the cutscene), a bunch of Demonic Beasts attack Rhea, regardless of whether she succeeded in stealing any Crest Stones. So, the Empire (and TWSITD) was able to mass-produce Demonic Beasts already, but they wanted to produce even more massively? Or, Hanneman was wrong, and the Empire's intent was to... make weapons? Aymr's existence suggests this as a serious possibility.

Also - what happens to the Crest Stones post-skip? In every route, the Empire overtakes Garreg Mach after the battle in chapter 12. Does Edelgard go back down to the Holy Tomb, to take the Crest Stones, and use them for the war effort? Does a senior Church member, such as Seteth, take them and flee? When we play the Rhealogue (in non-CF routes), are the Crest Stones still there? I think the first scenario (Edelgard revisits the Holy Tomb to take them) is most likely, but unless I'm mistaken, the game never really follows up on the topic. They're a MacGuffin for a single chapter that proceed to disappear from relevance or mention.

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Thank you for the example - as it provides the nail-in-the-coffin to "Edelgard is their friend"! After all, what kind of friend wouldn't invite her classmates to her own coronation? I don't see Bernadetta ever forgiving Edelgard for not saving her a slice of cake, at least! And before anyone siezes on this as a serious argument, it's a jest.

LOL XD It went like this:

Quote

 

BE Students: Weren't we promised cake?

Edelgard: The cake is a lie.

BE Student: *gasp*

 

3 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Yeah, this is confusing. Hanneman speculates that Edelgard was after the Crest Stones to create Demonic Beasts - and the game doesn't de-confirm this. But during the assault on Garreg Mach (in the cutscene), a bunch of Demonic Beasts attack Rhea, regardless of whether she succeeded in stealing any Crest Stones. So, the Empire (and TWSITD) was able to mass-produce Demonic Beasts already, but they wanted to produce even more massively? Or, Hanneman was wrong, and the Empire's intent was to... make weapons? Aymr's existence suggests this as a serious possibility.

Also - what happens to the Crest Stones post-skip? In every route, the Empire overtakes Garreg Mach after the battle in chapter 12. Does Edelgard go back down to the Holy Tomb, to take the Crest Stones, and use them for the war effort? Does a senior Church member, such as Seteth, take them and flee? When we play the Rhealogue (in non-CF routes), are the Crest Stones still there? I think the first scenario (Edelgard revisits the Holy Tomb to take them) is most likely, but unless I'm mistaken, the game never really follows up on the topic. They're a MacGuffin for a single chapter that proceed to disappear from relevance or mention.

That's a good point. In every route, Garreg Mach falls. Edelgard oughta have full access to the Crest Stones from the Holy Tomb as a result. Unless Rhea moved them all to a more secure location. 

Then again, there were apparently Crest Stones under the palace in Fhirdiad, which Dedue used.

Some people theorize that Edelgard was trying to stop whatever Rhea was trying to accomplish using Byleth, but I'm meh on that, given that she never questioned what Rhea was trying to do there.

[Jotari]

7 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

As you said, that the game's detriment. 

But your and @Jotari's arguments that Edelgard owes some kind of apology for it after is just silly. Like, no, she doesn't owe any apology for that, because in the end, the one that chose to fight her was them. Byleth and the BE students fought her, and when at the end, Byleth chose to defend her, everyone then saw that Rhea go crazy and express the desire to kill. 

 

Hey I've already said I'd be relatively fine if it were the Black Eagles apologizing to Edelgard (even though they don't have a reason to). Just so long as the whole instance of friends fighting each other in lethal combat was addressed and carried any weight whatsoever. Course if I had my way the decision to join or fight Edelgard would have been before the chapter battle entirely.

Edited December 14, 2020 by Jotari

[Dark Holy Elf]

22 hours ago, Slyfox said:

I don't see why I deserve your ire. Today is the first time I decided to participate in this thread, so please don't take your anger out on me.

For what it's worth, I wasn't angry. I was a bit annoyed because I felt this was the second person who seemed to be, whether deliberately or not, sidestepping a key moral issue to the situation. So I thank you for actually addressing that, and apologize if I made you uncomfortable. Anyway let's talk about the Flame Emperor.

I do agree that if Edelgard being the Flame Emperor justifies her friends to treat her as an enemy who must be stopped, then the scene makes more sense. You obviously feel that's the case. I didn't, because I didn't think the game had adequately presented the Flame Emperor as a villain. Here's what we know the Flame Emperor has done:

-participated in the plot to abduct Flayn (though notably, called the Death Knight off rather than allow him to fight Byleth as he desired)
-appeared in Remire Village after the incident. Expressed a desire to stop such things from happening again.

That's it. The Flayn abduction is obviously the bad thing there, and if you think it's so bad that attacking her on sight thereafter is justified, well, I can understand that. Overall, though, the Flame Emperor consistently rated as a mysterious figure moreso than a villainous one for me - I wanted to know why they were doing what they were doing and why, rather than see them brought to justice (contrast Solon or Kronya, there).

But don't get me wrong, the story easily could have justified that the Eagles felt much less charitable to the Flame Emperor than me. Just imagine:

Caspar: The Flame Emperor was spotted at Remire? Does that mean he was behind the suffering there? Oh, I can't wait to get my hands on him!
Dorothea: I was kidnapped once. It's one of the worst memories of my life. If the Flame Emperor was responsible for the attempt on Flayn... then I will never, ever, forgive him.
And at the Holy Tomb...
Petra: Edelgard, you are the Flame Emperor? Then it is you who have caused so much suffering! Even if it requires me turning a blade against a friend, I shall not be forgiving you!

Obviously I'd feel the Eagles are misjudging Edelgard here, but that's okay, it would make sense and I could be sold on it (in particular, I'd want the Eagles to acknowledge that fighting her is hard for them, but that they think it's right). However, the writers did not do this. In fact, here is every single time an Eagle mentions the Flame Emperor (besides Edelgard herself, of course):

Lindhardt: Flame Emperor? Rather worrisome that he sounds intent on showing up again.
Ferdinand: We found [Flayn] within that secret passage. The culprits were the Death Knight and...what was his name? Ah, the Flame Emperor. Sadly, they got away.
Linhardt: So the Flame Emperor's connected to the Empire. I never thought that possible.

That's it. Even at the Holy Tomb itself, her identity as the Flame Emperor just isn't important there. After Edelgard says "I am the Flame Emperor", nobody comments on it (and it's worth emphasis: nobody comments on it on either Eagles route thereafter!). The writers clearly did not think her being the Flame Emperor was that significant to the Eagles (or indeed, to anyone except Dimitri). Petra and Caspar ask why she is doing "this" (a fair question to be clear), but that presumably refers to her current actions. Which is why I've mostly looked at this situation from the point of view of the Eagles choosing to fight her to stop her theft, which again I find to be nonsensical.

13 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Does Hubert appear before the fight? He's not fought on the map.

He does indeed!

Hubert: I guess that's the end of play-at-school, Lady Edelgard.

Always loved that line.

You're right that he's not on the map, which makes no sense, since he appears in the cutscene both before and after... until you realize the map is wholly copy/pasted from another route (where Hubert does not appear in the cutscene) for which it is actually designed. Kinda sums up BE Chapter 11 in general.

13 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Let's consider both sides of this coin, though. Edelgard reveals herself to be the Flame Emperor, someone who - to the best of their knowledge - is responsible for the kidnapping of Flayn, and the killing of Jeralt.

How is the Flame Emperor publicly connected to the killing of Jeralt? Jeralt was killed by Kronya, who has no connection to the Flame Emperor besides the scene in Chapter 10 with them and Thales, which nobody witnesses on the BE route. (And even if you want to turn this argument from "what the Eagles think" to "what the player thinks", well, the Flame Emperor spends that scene expressing a hatred of the other two.) Although, wait, Edelgard herself certainly has a public connection to Kronya by Chapter 11...

Kronya: Huh? What are you-- Are you here to kill me?

Edelgard: I am. Prepare yourself for death while you still can.

Now maybe she wanted to kill Solon and Kronya because <supervillain voice>they had outlived their usefulness</supervillain> but Occam's Razor suggests that it means that in fact they are not her allies, so blaming Edelgard for stuff they did seems unlikely unless one is already predisposed to disliking Edelgard (i.e. not her friends).

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

For what it's worth, I wasn't angry. I was a bit annoyed because I felt this was the second person who seemed to be, whether deliberately or not, sidestepping a key moral issue to the situation. So I thank you for actually addressing that, and apologize if I made you uncomfortable. Anyway let's talk about the Flame Emperor.

 

No one's side stepping the moral issue. It's that you're perspective of the morals is immensely scewed. You think anyone should be allowed to do anything they want so long as they're willing to use lethal force to achieve it. And now I know you're comeback will just be "Nuh uh, it's that life is more valuable than property." Which isn't the question at all. Edelgard and her cohorts are the ones that are deeming the appropriation of property as worth more than a human life by being willing to kill to take it. If Edelgaard valued her friends lives more than she valued the crest stones she'd order her men to stand down once the Black Eagles made it clear they were going to protect them, rather than ordering her soldiers (and her giant demonic beasts) to kill them.

[Dark Holy Elf]

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

You think anyone should be allowed to do anything they want so long as they're willing to use lethal force to achieve it.

I absolutely do not; you're just bad at reading. I stated, explicitly, that neither side is fully in the right or wrong there. I've been calling Byleth + the Eagles' behaviour as both immoral and unrealistic, but that doesn't mean I think Edelgard's behaviour there is moral.

You're the one who refuses to acknowledge the ambiguous morality of the situation, and when I call you on it by asking if you would attack your friend in defence of property, you don't respond.

[Jotari]

53 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I absolutely do not; you're just bad at reading. I stated, explicitly, that neither side is fully in the right or wrong there. I've been calling Byleth + the Eagles' behaviour as both immoral and unrealistic, but that doesn't mean I think Edelgard's behaviour there is moral.

Which results in exactly what I said. If Byleth and co are behaving immoral, then you're saying it is immoral with people who have the power and authority to stop other people committing crimes so long as the perpetrators are willing to use lethal force. Because Byleth and co absolutely do have the authority and the power to stop the crime (which they do).

Quote

You're the one who refuses to acknowledge the ambiguous morality of the situation, and when I call you on it by asking if you would attack your friend in defence of property, you don't respond.

Me personally? No, as I'm not a cop (or a soldier or a security guard etc) and have no intention of ever being someone with the authority or ability to wield force. That in no way makes it immoral for a police officer to apprehend (in a lethal manner if need be) a friend of theirs who is committing a crime. It's pretty morally unambiguous when you have one side committing a crime and another side trying to prevent said side from committing the crime. That's literally what's happening here. Was there moral ambiguity involved in Chapter 4 when Byleth and co were stopping the death knight and dark mages from trying to steal the Sword of the Creator? Or is it just the friend aspect that changes everything? Because that's not a moral dilemma, it's a personal dilemma. Which is why the choice would be better before the battle.

Edited December 15, 2020 by Jotari

[tirex367]

10 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

until you realize the map is wholly copy/pasted from another route (where Hubert does not appear in the cutscene) for which it is actually designed. Kinda sums up BE Chapter 11 in general.

that's weird, because isn't SS and with that the BE version of WC confirmed to have been the original route? Is there anything known, that points towards WC11 originating in another route?