I somehow thought Metodey and Randolph were the same character for way too long

[Ottservia]

I’m just curious of why we’re so hung up on the moral implications of Edelgard at the holy tomb. When it comes to morality in fiction, I find its best not to think on it too much as that can lead dangerously close into nitpicking territory where the overall thematic point is being missed in favor of moral bias.

[omegaxis1]

23 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I’m just curious of why we’re so hung up on the moral implications of Edelgard at the holy tomb. When it comes to morality in fiction, I find its best not to think on it too much as that can lead dangerously close into nitpicking territory where the overall thematic point is being missed in favor of moral bias.

Because Edelgard is a morally divisive character, everyone feels the need to nitpick the slightest thing about her. 

And no, not just in regards to criticism. Defenders also nitpick about things she does right just to push their beliefs too. That or nitpick the other characters in retaliation. 

Both sides aren't free of nitpicking.

[RainbowMoon]

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Because Edelgard is a morally divisive character, everyone feels the need to nitpick the slightest thing about her. 

And no, not just in regards to criticism. Defenders also nitpick about things she does right just to push their beliefs too. That or nitpick the other characters in retaliation. 

Both sides aren't free of nitpicking.

Yeap, that's the trouble with morally-grey characters. On the one hand, you get far more compelling, human characters than sticking to the old fashioned "good guys vs. bad guys" schtick. On the other, you get the endless internet nitpick wars where people inevitably try to pigeonhole them into one of those roles.

[Ottservia]

3 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

Yeap, that's the trouble with morally-grey characters. On the one hand, you get far more compelling, human characters than sticking to the old fashioned "good guys vs. bad guys" schtick. On the other, you get the endless internet nitpick wars where people inevitably try to pigeonhole them into one of those roles.

Could not have said it better myself. Most people say they want morally ambiguous characters but then when they actually get them they nitpick every little thing. The thing about moral gray in fiction is that it’s not black and white. It’s not just about oh the villain has a sympathetic backstory. It’s about realizing that there’s more nuance to an issue than the simple black and white good vs evil. Looking at moral ambiguity under the lens of right and wrong because there is no such thing as truly right or truly wrong in that instance. We’re all just people acting on our beliefs and values.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

16 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

How is the Flame Emperor publicly connected to the killing of Jeralt? Jeralt was killed by Kronya, who has no connection to the Flame Emperor besides the scene in Chapter 10 with them and Thales, which nobody witnesses on the BE route. (And even if you want to turn this argument from "what the Eagles think" to "what the player thinks", well, the Flame Emperor spends that scene expressing a hatred of the other two.) Although, wait, Edelgard herself certainly has a public connection to Kronya by Chapter 11...

Basically, it's this: the Flame Emperor is in league with the Death Knight (Flayn-napping chapter), the Death Knight is in league with Solon (Remire), and Solon is in league with Kronya (Sealed Forest). Edelgard herself has no objections to killing Kronya, but in her persona as the Flame Emperor, she works with Those Who Slither, which includes Kronya. While Edelgard doesn't bear primary responsibility for Jeralt's death, the fact that she is seen (as the Flame Emperor) giving orders to the Death Knight is enough to connect her to the malcontents who did kill him.

Side note: she brings Demonic Beasts to the battle. You know, the kind that were used to lure Jeralt to his death? Her apparent ability to command them (like Kronya, or Solon) is bound to draw suspicions in its own right. Even if she has good reasons for it, by the start of this chapter, I imagine Edelgard comes across totally different to her classmates than ever before - and not in a good way.

[Ottservia]

3 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Basically, it's this: the Flame Emperor is in league with the Death Knight (Flayn-napping chapter), the Death Knight is in league with Solon (Remire), and Solon is in league with Kronya (Sealed Forest). Edelgard herself has no objections to killing Kronya, but in her persona as the Flame Emperor, she works with Those Who Slither, which includes Kronya. While Edelgard doesn't bear primary responsibility for Jeralt's death, the fact that she is seen (as the Flame Emperor) giving orders to the Death Knight is enough to connect her to the malcontents who did kill him.

Side note: she brings Demonic Beasts to the battle. You know, the kind that were used to lure Jeralt to his death? Her apparent ability to command them (like Kronya, or Solon) is bound to draw suspicions in its own right. Even if she has good reasons for it, by the start of this chapter, I imagine Edelgard comes across totally different to her classmates than ever before - and not in a good way.

Yeah she didn’t kill Jeralt. That moment was completely out of her jurisdiction. She had really nothing to do with it. She didn’t want it to happen. It was essentially just Kronya being a petty bitch because Jeralt screwed with her fun. I don’t understand where this logic even comes from as its made very clear that Edelgard both wanted and had nothing to do with it. She states as much herself. She didn’t even know it was gonna happen. It just kind of did because Kronya is a petty asshole. Yeah she’s in kahoots with them but again that moment wasn’t a malicious plot to kill Jeralt. It was Kronya doing some experiments which caught the school’s attention and Jeralt just so happened to be the one to help stop it.  Like that’s all that happened. Edelgard didn’t plan this at all.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

22 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Yeah she didn’t kill Jeralt. That moment was completely out of her jurisdiction. She had really nothing to do with it. She didn’t want it to happen. It was essentially just Kronya being a petty bitch because Jeralt screwed with her fun. I don’t understand where this logic even comes from as its made very clear that Edelgard both wanted and had nothing to do with it. She states as much herself. She didn’t even know it was gonna happen. It just kind of did because Kronya is a petty asshole. Yeah she’s in kahoots with them but again that moment wasn’t a malicious plot to kill Jeralt. It was Kronya doing some experiments which caught the school’s attention and Jeralt just so happened to be the one to help stop it.  Like that’s all that happened. Edelgard didn’t plan this at all.

I'm not so sure it was spur-of-the-moment. One target of The Slithers is the Sword-of-the-Creator - and, by extension, the Professor. By killing Jeralt, they inspire the Professor to vengeance - thus drawing them into the Sealed Forest, into the spell of Zaharas. Alternatively, the Sealed Forest Snare was an improvisation, but it's at least possible that this was planned from the murder of Jeralt.

And for the record, I'm not putting the blame for Jeralt's death onto Edelgard. The point is, though, she's connected to his killers. On top of already being the person "Monica" hung around with the most, now she's the one who ordered the Death Knight, and was spotted at Remire? It's not a stretch for her classmates to at least wonder - could she have ordered Jeralt's death, as part of her own machinations? The point is, they have serious reasons to mistrust Edelgard as their friend at this point, given her secret double life.

[eclipse]

*looks at first post in topic*
*looks at current discussion*

How did we get here?

[omegaxis1]

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

*looks at first post in topic*
*looks at current discussion*

How did we get here?

Because Edelgard. 

[Jotari]

9 hours ago, Ottservia said:

I’m just curious of why we’re so hung up on the moral implications of Edelgard at the holy tomb. When it comes to morality in fiction, I find its best not to think on it too much as that can lead dangerously close into nitpicking territory where the overall thematic point is being missed in favor of moral bias.

I don't particularly care how good or bad Edelgard is from a moral perspective. What I care about his how her actions generate reactions in the plot. And in a situation wherein she has just ordered her friends killed for her own personal benefit, that's a major action to take for the relationship between her and he friends which is in no way adequately explored in Crimson Flower (or even Silver Snow to be honest). As I said before, if they wanted to flip things and have the Black Eagles apologizing to Edelgard for daring to fight her, then that could work too. The Black Eagles have no express need to apologize, but it would show how the characters feel and would display Edelgard's cult of personality. What goes down in the Holy Tomb is the largest turning point of the game. But everything Edelgard does or tries to achieve beyond outing herself as an enemy of the church is irrelevant for the progression of the story. Even the acquiring of the Crest Stones has no explicit bearing on the rest of the plot. In a way we could actually cut this chapter from the game completely and have Edelgard just declare war from Enbarr and have Rhea tell Byleth she wants them to kill Edelgard and basically nothing would actually change (well for 3 routes, Byleth would still need to see an Immaculate One Rhea on Crimson Flower).

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

3 hours ago, eclipse said:

*looks at first post in topic*
*looks at current discussion*

How did we get here?

"As discussion occurs on the story, characters, or world-building in Three Houses, the chance of the discourse eventually coming to center around Edelgard continually increases, approaching 100%."

- Basically the Fire Emblem equivalent of Godwin's Law (clever names, anyone?)

[RainbowMoon]

14 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I'm not so sure it was spur-of-the-moment. One target of The Slithers is the Sword-of-the-Creator - and, by extension, the Professor. By killing Jeralt, they inspire the Professor to vengeance - thus drawing them into the Sealed Forest, into the spell of Zaharas. Alternatively, the Sealed Forest Snare was an improvisation, but it's at least possible that this was planned from the murder of Jeralt

Hot take: Jeralt's murder was actually planned by Thales and Solon in an attempt to alienate Edelgard from Byleth. One of them (most likely Solon) found out about the Flame Emperor's little conversation with Byleth after Remire and knew exactly why she wanted Byleth's help (namely, to cut Thales and Solon from throat to scroat). So they sent Kronya to kill Jeralt, hoping that would color Byleth's opinion of Edelgard to the point that she'd never join her.

Of course, their whole plan goes straight to hell on the Black Eagles path when the Sealed Forest battle shows Byleth just how much Edelgard hates the Slithers and wants to (in Dimitri's voice) kill every last one of them. Especially if you're like me and send Edelgard to get the kill on Kronya and Solon personally.

That's just my take though. The most likely answer is that Kronya, being the petty little shit that she is, killed Jeralt because she felt like it and then Solon said "Hey I can work with this."

[Blaze The Great]

13 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

"As discussion occurs on the story, characters, or world-building in Three Houses, the chance of the discourse eventually coming to center around Edelgard continually increases, approaching 100%."

- Basically the Fire Emblem equivalent of Godwin's Law (clever names, anyone?)

Hanneman's Law; only a scholar such as he would spend so much time philosophizing over semantics like this.

[RainbowMoon]

53 minutes ago, Blaze The Great said:

Hanneman's Law; only a scholar such as he would spend so much time philosophizing over semantics like this.

Riegan's Law, after the chill Claude fans who sit back and watch as the constant flame wars between Edelgard and Rhea/Dimitri fans rage on.

[eclipse]

15 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

"As discussion occurs on the story, characters, or world-building in Three Houses, the chance of the discourse eventually coming to center around Edelgard continually increases, approaching 100%."

- Basically the Fire Emblem equivalent of Godwin's Law (clever names, anyone?)

Since it's a 3H-specific issue (because let's face it, Edelgard ain't got squat over those guys in terms of looks), I suggest that it be named after an inevitability in 3H.  I propose "The Law of Garrag Mach" - because no matter how much you try to avoid it, you ALWAYS end up back there after every single encounter.  Even when it makes no sense to do so!

20 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

Riegan's Law, after the chill Claude fans who sit back and watch as the constant flame wars between Edelgard and Rhea/Dimitri fans rage on.

You know it's bad when Claude decides to peace out and leave the country!  😜

[omegaxis1]

22 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

Riegan's Law, after the chill Claude fans who sit back and watch as the constant flame wars between Edelgard and Rhea/Dimitri fans rage on.

Even Claude fans aren't free from this, but this is probably made worse due to what Joe said about Edelgard, which sparked some fans to also join the same page as Rhea/Dimitri fans.

[RainbowMoon]

3 hours ago, eclipse said:

Since it's a 3H-specific issue (because let's face it, Edelgard ain't got squat over those guys in terms of looks), I suggest that it be named after an inevitability in 3H.  I propose "The Law of Garrag Mach" - because no matter how much you try to avoid it, you ALWAYS end up back there after every single encounter.  Even when it makes no sense to do so!

LOL that's perfect! I'm just glad CF and AM don't do that for their final chapters. Would've been really awkward if the Black Eagles decided to hoof it back to the monastery for a tea break between Tailtean and Fhirdiad.

4 hours ago, eclipse said:

You know it's bad when Claude decides to peace out and leave the country!  😜

Sounds like an idea for a better VW route lol

Claude just packs up and says "Screw y'all, we're going back to Almyra!"

[omegaxis1]

7 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

Sounds like an idea for a better VW route lol

Claude just packs up and says "Screw y'all, we're going back to Almyra!"

Sounds like how SS Claude ended up.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

LOL that's perfect! I'm just glad CF and AM don't do that for their final chapters. Would've been really awkward if the Black Eagles decided to hoof it back to the monastery for a tea break between Tailtean and Fhirdiad.

Sounds like an idea for a better VW route lol

Claude just packs up and says "Screw y'all, we're going back to Almyra!"

Well that is what Claude does at the end of Verdant Wind after making Byleth god emperor of everything.

[RainbowMoon]

11 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well that is what Claude does at the end of Verdant Wind after making Byleth god emperor of everything.

Nah, I meant something more like a route where Byleth and the Deer actually go with him to Almyra and do their own thing instead of copying SS.

I was mainly joking though, since it feels like VW got the short end plot-wise.

[Jotari]

11 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

Nah, I meant something more like a route where Byleth and the Deer actually go with him to Almyra and do their own thing instead of copying SS.

I was mainly joking though, since it feels like VW got the short end plot-wise.

I did see a Verdant Wind fix video recently that suggested Almyria play more of a presence in the plot with Claude's unseen king father using the chaos of the war to stage an invasion of Fodlan. With Claude challenging his father to a trial by combat to save Fodlan for the final chapter, represented in gameplay as a final battle designed around casual mode with limited battalions. Would have been a bit more fitting than random Nemesis battle.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Jotari

[RainbowMoon]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

I did see a Verdant Wind fix video recently that suggested Almyria play more of a presence in the plot with Claude's unseen king father using the chaos of the war to stage an invasion of Fodlan. With Claude challenging his father to a trial by combat to save Fodlan for the final chapter, represented in gameplay as a final battle designed around casual mode with limited battalions. Would have been a bit more fitting than random Nemesis battle.

Literally anything would've made more sense than the Nemesis zombie shuffle lol

That sounds like a really interesting rewrite. I'll definitely have to check it out. I think giving Almyra more of a presence, as well as focusing a bit more on political tensions in the Alliance (hate how the Gloucester and Ordeila conflict is pretty much given a passing mention, forgotten about and then resolved one chapter later as a damn afterthought), would've done a great deal to give VW more of its own identity.

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

Literally anything would've made more sense than the Nemesis zombie shuffle lol

That sounds like a really interesting rewrite. I'll definitely have to check it out. I think giving Almyra more of a presence, as well as focusing a bit more on political tensions in the Alliance (hate how the Gloucester and Ordeila conflict is pretty much given a passing mention, forgotten about and then resolved one chapter later as a damn afterthought), would've done a great deal to give VW more of its own identity.

Enjoy.  They've done one for Silver Snow and Crimson Flower too, though I don't think much about their Crimson Flower fix.

[RainbowMoon]

14 hours ago, Jotari said:

Enjoy.  They've done one for Silver Snow and Crimson Flower too, though I don't think much about their Crimson Flower fix.

Thanks! And yeah, I've seen a few CF "fix" ideas recently, but they weren't very good or completely missed the point of the route. Honestly though, CF being the shortest route doesn't really bother me the way VW's half-assed story does. It actually makes a lot of sense seeing how Edelgard is the shortest lord the Empire's starting off at such a clear advantage in part 2. They don't have to rally and make a comeback like the Kingdom or the Alliance, so they can get right to it and end the war. And it certainly helps that the route's length is offset by some truly unique story and battle experiences (taking Garreg Mach in ch.12, Hubert's paralogue, Tailtean in ch.17, the final boss). VW by comparison feels like they got lazy and didn't feel like writing a story for Claude, so they just copied one they already had. Which really sucks too because Claude's such an interesting lord, but his character arc just ends up reading as so... flat compared to the other two. I've only seen a few minutes of the video so far but I'm enjoying their take on the story. Putting a greater focus on Almyra and its politics I think gives Claude and his ideals that extra bit of depth that was missing in the game.

[Blaze The Great]

Crimson Flower is fine in terms of the plot that it does include. Where it could really use some touching up is with regards to what it DOESN'T include. The 7 chapters of CF that we get, centered around the Empire's conflict with the Church, do a good job at wrapping up that specific plot point. But, unfortunately, it doesn't adequately wrap up the rest of the world, particularly so with regards to TWSITD. Even adding just 2 more chapters to resolve that conflict (since Edelgard was shown to have distaste for working with them) would have certainly strengthened the plot of CF and made it feel more complete.