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Dancer Lord: Good Design Decision?

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2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

A hilarious idea, but if you're doing an "every map is sieze" style game, you could just make Siezing worth an instant 100 exp. Not sure if FEBuilder is equipped for that, though.

For having more than one unit be able to seize, I' m not sure. But for just ending the map, it'd be super easy, barely an inconvenience. I'm not sure any of the actual GBA games ever use it (actually now that I think about it this probably is what's used for Merlinus which is what caused me to suggest such an idea), but there is a command that is "Give X exp to [Unit]". And since seize always initiates an event (ie it always causes the map to end or something else), all you have to do is just tell the game to give your lord 100 exp. It's possible [Unit] could be changed to [VisitingUnit] which is used for characters visiting villages and houses, though I'm not sure.

Quote

A man after my own heart. "Dancer with spells" seems so obvious, for something we've not yet gotten (aside from Three Houses, kind of).

Radical thought, and it might not fit with the styling of the game, but... maybe the promotion could be the Lord character literally sprouting wings? Now they have one extra move, and flying mobility. Although, it'd definitely demand a new dance/battle animation.

*cough* *cough* that's in my fan game. *plug* *plug*

1 hour ago, L3xandr3 said:

The best I can think of would be to make them a Merlinus-Leveling Dance-lord that can (Maybe?)  promote after reaching Lv20. And the best compromise for the Fighting/No fighting for Dancers debate would be for them to get Combat access after promotion.

That's... an Angel, then? Or a Laguz-like protagonist? Any way you cut that, it's a bit out of place in FE, but we are talking about a Hack here, so... Sky's the limit, aye?

Well one advantage of having them level like Merlinus is that you know exactly what level your lord is going to be in every chapter. This also lends itself for a plot based promotion very well.

Edited by Jotari

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2 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

dancer isn't supposed to be in harms way.

yes,.. if its the ideal perfect world. but we know its not the fact. also im sure people who rush play, and also on account of the dancer being the lord, like it or not will have many opportunity to be out in danger

2 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I was not planning on having them promote on account of dancers not typically promoting. Of course, I'm open to arguments that they should. Since I wasn't thinking of a combat dancer

if they promote, but dont have combat abilities, im wondering what would be their class. a dancer become.. pole dancer? singer? a strip-te--- ahem. or if this is just "dancer"  class, so they could be a bard yes? so, a bard become.. conductor(of orchestra) or Maestro (woaahh!!!) im joking if you didnt catch it

 

also in terms of exp, i also support the idea of lvling per chapter. since tweaking exp bonus & penalty based on lvl is tiresome, the vanilla exp is too damn slow, and its free Real Estate for dancer after wiping the enemy if the objective is seize

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In my FE based DnD I had a refresher that was basically a motivational speaker. I really liked that idea for refresher units. But I don't think you're actually looking for types of refreshers.

I'm all for a support main, really hope they give Roy more of a supporter role in terms of gameplay for the FE6 remake.

I do feel having a refresher at lvl 1 might be a bit much though. If your method of hacking allows it, what do you think of the following idea:
- At lvl 1, the main character can rally an ally, giving them a small boost in combat stats (maybe +1 dmg/dmg reduction/hit/avoid)
- At lvl 10 their rally is improved by refreshing the ally as well
- At lvl 5, 15, 25 and 35 the boost becomes bigger
- At lvl 20 the rally also recovers HP for the rallied ally (maybe equal to user's magic?)
- At lvl 30 the rally also grants +1 movement and canto to both this and the rallied unit
- At lvl 40 the rally is used for all adjacent allies. (Think RD's Rafiel)

My preference also goes to gaining experience based on the level of who you dance for. The Jeigan problem can be solved by not having a Jeigan (my preference) or by setting its level to 1 for this exp calculation.

Also, just make the rapier a normal sword, like a weaker, lighter version of the armorslayer that also deals effective damage to horses, never seen a real need for that to be prf except for slightly buffing your main. (Also another effective sword kind of cancels out the negatives of no early game range options for swords, imo.)

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19 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Radical thought, and it might not fit with the styling of the game, but... maybe the promotion could be the Lord character literally sprouting wings? Now they have one extra move, and flying mobility. Although, it'd definitely demand a new dance/battle animation

18 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

That's... an Angel, then? Or a Laguz-like protagonist? Any way you cut that, it's a bit out of place in FE, but we are talking about a Hack here, so... Sky's the limit, aye?

That...wouldn't be totally inappropriate given from some of the ideas I had, actually. It might be kind of busted, though. Dancers on feet are already pretty powerful.

19 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

The Rapier could also go to the game's "Caeda" figure (if there is one), or just another playable noble character. This might depend on how you feel about Prf weapons, though.

I actually like that idea. Maybe not as much as having the rapier be generically equipable, but it would be a pretty schway way to add emphasis to pseudo-lords. I think it would be cool to incorporate more proof weapons, especially as a way to spice up otherwise underwhelming units. That said...

9 hours ago, whase said:

Also, just make the rapier a normal sword, like a weaker, lighter version of the armorslayer that also deals effective damage to horses, never seen a real need for that to be prf except for slightly buffing your main. (Also another effective sword kind of cancels out the negatives of no early game range options for swords, imo.)

I like this idea as well, and it might really help sword locked units be moderately decent.

19 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I've been theorycrafting a system in which all three exist, but are differentiated outside of the triangle. Roughly speaking - Light Magic is defensive, and 1-range; Dark Magic is offensive, and 2~3-range; and, Anima Magic does effective damage, and is 1~2-range. Were you planning on cutting out a magic type, or just the "triangle" dynamic?

I was thinking of cutting out a magic type. I don't think it's necessary to have more magic types than can offer distinct uses, and once you no longer have three magic types, you cannot have a magic triangle. I have considered using different ranges as a way to distinguish them, and I think having a melee magic type and a magic type that attacks without getting countered could be interesting, but I still considered it a little lazy. The melee weapons mostly distinguish themselves while all being primarily 1 range.

I think part of the problem is how magic types all serve mostly similar gameplay functions and the unit types are also very similar. Axes are at least in part distinguished by the types of units which wield them, but this isn't so much the case for magic types. Magic classes are tend to be very samey. Every magic type needs a class which specializes in it, but only gets one class and that makes it a little trickier to make those classes statistically unique and specialized.

I do have the following ideas for what certain magic types could do, but I'm not convinced they're enough to make them unique and interesting weapon types. I think they do need classes to go along with them for that.

  • Light Magic: Lightweight, weak, accurate, and has boosted crit
  • Dark Magic: Various effects, similar to vanilla
  • Dark Magic: Inflicts stat penalties, similar to Hidden Weapons from Fates
  • ???: Provides assorted stat bonuses, similar to the Scrolls from Fates

I don't know. Maybe range differences would be fine.

17 hours ago, Jotari said:

For having more than one unit be able to seize, I' m not sure. But for just ending the map, it'd be super easy, barely an inconvenience. I'm not sure any of the actual GBA games ever use it (actually now that I think about it this probably is what's used for Merlinus which is what caused me to suggest such an idea), but there is a command that is "Give X exp to [Unit]". And since seize always initiates an event (ie it always causes the map to end or something else), all you have to do is just tell the game to give your lord 100 exp. It's possible [Unit] could be changed to [VisitingUnit] which is used for characters visiting villages and houses, though I'm not sure.

That's interesting, but one problem is that you can't see the level up screen for Merlinus, and I'd like if you could see the level up screen here. That sounds like a fascinating event to play around with though. I'm assuming that's how the gorgon eggs work?

18 hours ago, L3xandr3 said:

The best I can think of would be to make them a Merlinus-Leveling Dance-lord that can (Maybe?)  promote after reaching Lv20. And the best compromise for the Fighting/No fighting for Dancers debate would be for them to get Combat access after promotion.

17 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well one advantage of having them level like Merlinus is that you know exactly what level your lord is going to be in every chapter. This also lends itself for a plot based promotion very well.

I'm not planning a 30-chapter game or anything like that, so it might work better to promote them earlier than level 20 if they end up promoting at all.

On 12/7/2020 at 2:48 AM, joevar said:

if they promote, but dont have combat abilities, im wondering what would be their class. a dancer become.. pole dancer? singer? a strip-te--- ahem. or if this is just "dancer"  class, so they could be a bard yes? so, a bard become.. conductor(of orchestra) or Maestro (woaahh!!!)

9 hours ago, whase said:

In my FE based DnD I had a refresher that was basically a motivational speaker. I really liked that idea for refresher units. But I don't think you're actually looking for types of refreshers.

Yeah, most seeking to get it sorted out mechanically first.

17 hours ago, joevar said:

im joking if you didnt catch it

I mostly caught that.

9 hours ago, whase said:

I do feel having a refresher at lvl 1 might be a bit much though. If your method of hacking allows it, what do you think of the following idea:

- At lvl 1, the main character can rally an ally, giving them a small boost in combat stats (maybe +1 dmg/dmg reduction/hit/avoid)
- At lvl 10 their rally is improved by refreshing the ally as well
- At lvl 5, 15, 25 and 35 the boost becomes bigger
- At lvl 20 the rally also recovers HP for the rallied ally (maybe equal to user's magic?)
- At lvl 30 the rally also grants +1 movement and canto to both this and the rallied unit
- At lvl 40 the rally is used for all adjacent allies. (Think RD's Rafiel)

Improving the lord's support abilities as they level up is a good idea. I actually quite like the 4-person dance that Sylvia and Rafiel can do, but it is a bit powerful. Stacking more and more effects onto the dance could spiral out of control in terms of potency, which isn't necessarily bad but it worth considering. Whether the player should have a refresher in chapter 1 is a very good question though.

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1 hour ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

 

That's interesting, but one problem is that you can't see the level up screen for Merlinus, and I'd like if you could see the level up screen here. That sounds like a fascinating event to play around with though. I'm assuming that's how the gorgon eggs work?

 

I'm not sure how gorgon eggs work. That coding is scary stuff I try to keep as far away from me as possible. This event in question does show the level up screen though, at least in The Sacred Stones. I use it in that-one-game -you-promised-to-beta-test-but-didn't (>.>) to have on map talk conversations similar to Genealogy of the Holy War that grant a level up to one of the two units involved.

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On magic types, not sure if this helps, but this is how I solved it for my FE DnD system:

I went back to Echoes and made my magic cost hp to cast.

- Light magic, which includes staves, has barely any might, but lots of hit. It is effective vs monsters. Having a rank in light magic also lowers casting cost of all non-dark spells.
- Wind magic is low might, high hit, effective vs flying, and gains an ability to move enemies after attacking them.
- Fire magic is balanced in might and hit, effective vs beasts (including horses), and gains an ability to set an enemy on fire, dealing damage each turn like poison.
- Thunder magic is high might low hit, effective vs armors and dragons (including wyverns), and gains the ability to deal some damage to other adjacent enemies.
- Dark magic deals massive damage, but has a very small hit rate. It also has a bunch of special tomes like Nosferatu and Luna. Dark magic also costs more HP to cast.

As for magic classes I only needed 3:
- Cleric for light magic, they have a lot of luck, but also high magic and speed.
- Mage for wind/fire/thunder, they have a lot of resistance, but also high magic and skill.
- Sorcerer for dark magic, they have a lot of HP, but also high magic and defense.

If you have any questions feel free to ask, I feel this works for me, it might work for you.

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On 12/6/2020 at 5:01 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

About half the lords in the franchise are mostly there to be escorted to thrones, but even those lords can be trained to handle enemies pretty competently. A dancer, however, will always be frail and ineffective at combat.

I´m not knowledgeable on the pre-SD Refreshers and New Mystery eludes me too, but that is not entirely the case, is it?

Olivia in Awakening can be made a competent fighter even as a Dancer though obviously it requires solid investment (read: reclassing).

And then there´s Azura, who - frailty be damned – has some of the best aggressive growths in the game and by virtue of being a Dancer is bound to level up. The only things ever potentially holding her back are frailty as well as her weapon rank.

Why not go the other way and instead of having a frail Refresher have a moderately bulky Refresher? High HP and depending on what you want your players to deal with just a tad of SPD to avoid being doubled but the DEF/RES stats are also a tad lower to ensure the Refresher is still in danger. Or less SPD but higher DEF/RES? Having a high HP Refresher would alleviate some long rage sniping troubles i´d imagine (and hope). As a trade-off the combat could be worsened relative to bulk.

By extension a bulky Refresher could be more in the thick of it - enabling possible skills such as Fates Inspiration or any of the Royal Sisters if that is anywhere near what you think off.

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"Dancer lord" will be dancer(like de class) or will be act as support(the special skill)

Spoiler

Soldier: Milord, what are you doing?
Lord: I'm dancing! You dont see it?!
Soldier: ...

I know is a classic the dancer in FE but a leader probably use a speech, instruments like drums/horns or carrier some symbols like banners/flags

Weapon choice
if dancer/bard a sword
If use speech a sword or axe
If banner/flag a lance also maybe use a horse too(fix the mov problems)
If a spellcasters whatever magic that suit in the plot(the power come from magic)

On 12/7/2020 at 11:42 AM, whase said:

I do feel having a refresher at lvl 1 might be a bit much though. If your method of hacking allows it, what do you think of the following idea:
- At lvl 1, the main character can rally an ally, giving them a small boost in combat stats (maybe +1 dmg/dmg reduction/hit/avoid)
- At lvl 10 their rally is improved by refreshing the ally as well
- At lvl 5, 15, 25 and 35 the boost becomes bigger
- At lvl 20 the rally also recovers HP for the rallied ally (maybe equal to user's magic?)
- At lvl 30 the rally also grants +1 movement and canto to both this and the rallied unit
- At lvl 40 the rally is used for all adjacent allies. (Think RD's Rafiel)

I like this, sounds resonable enough, the lord become a better leader as level up.

Also dont forget the ninian's rings for bonus, exclusive gear for the lord.

 

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On 12/10/2020 at 2:30 AM, Jotari said:

I use it in that-one-game -you-promised-to-beta-test-but-didn't (>.>)

Heh. Uh, yes, well.

 

 

 

Ahem.

On 12/10/2020 at 8:37 AM, whase said:

On magic types, not sure if this helps, but this is how I solved it for my FE DnD system:

That is quite interesting actually, but I am concerned that a DnD campaign might be a bit too different from a Fire Emblem game to use one as an indicator of how a system will work in the other.

I have considered combining light magic and staves into a single thing. I played a Lex Talonis fangame which did that. Light magic was also staves, anima magic was also rallies, and dark magic was also refreshes. It was an interesting system, that's for sure. Maybe the weird dark magic tomes could be folded into light, sort of like how Tellius made Nosferatu a light magic time.

On 12/10/2020 at 8:37 AM, whase said:

- Cleric for light magic, they have a lot of luck, but also high magic and speed.
- Mage for wind/fire/thunder, they have a lot of resistance, but also high magic and skill.
- Sorcerer for dark magic, they have a lot of HP, but also high magic and defense.

Having a defensive light magic class like Sorcerer sounds fun, but I don't think there needs to be a new weapon type just for them in order for such a class to exist. You don't need a new weapon type just for armor knights and I would probably apply the same principle here.

On 12/10/2020 at 2:24 PM, Imuabicus said:

I´m not knowledgeable on the pre-SD Refreshers and New Mystery eludes me too, but that is not entirely the case, is it?

It's mostly the case in the older games. They can use swords in some of the very early ones but they tend to be very weak combat units that get killed very easily.

On 12/10/2020 at 2:24 PM, Imuabicus said:

Why not go the other way and instead of having a frail Refresher have a moderately bulky Refresher? High HP and depending on what you want your players to deal with just a tad of SPD to avoid being doubled but the DEF/RES stats are also a tad lower to ensure the Refresher is still in danger. Or less SPD but higher DEF/RES? Having a high HP Refresher would alleviate some long rage sniping troubles i´d imagine (and hope). As a trade-off the combat could be worsened relative to bulk.

 

By extension a bulky Refresher could be more in the thick of it - enabling possible skills such as Fates Inspiration or any of the Royal Sisters if that is anywhere near what you think off.

Oh yeah, bolting and stuff. That's a bit of a concern. They should definitely be able to survive at least one, regardless of which statistical direction they take.

On 12/10/2020 at 2:37 PM, Trycex said:

Soldier: Milord, what are you doing?
Lord: I'm dancing! You dont see it?!
Soldier: ...

"Mr. President-"
"Not now general, I'm practicing my jazz hands!"

On 12/10/2020 at 2:37 PM, Trycex said:

Also dont forget the ninian's rings for bonus, exclusive gear for the lord.

I'm very excited to implement those, I'll have to think of more neat things that can be done with them.

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I'd quite like to see a support lord. (Dancer or otherwise.)

As for the two dancers problem mentioned earlier, maybe just making it so Dancers' can't dance for each other would fix it.

I wouldn't mind the Dance lord being able to fight as long as they were crappy enough so that it's more of a last-resort (Like Donnel except their combat ability isn't the only thing they're capable of doing and therefore not useless), I think as a general rule of thumb, dancing so a better unit can attack should be how it works most of the time. (Obviously it'd probably change in the late-game if you're funneling EXP into them but I'm okay with that.) 

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For fun, the idea sounds amazing.

Balance wise, I could see that getting ugly. As long as they dont go with the idea of "dancer shouldnt be able to fight well!" 

Your MC should always be able to fight, cause if they cant and you have no units left... hard lock.

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7 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

For fun, the idea sounds amazing.

Balance wise, I could see that getting ugly. As long as they dont go with the idea of "dancer shouldnt be able to fight well!" 

Your MC should always be able to fight, cause if they cant and you have no units left... hard lock.

Does that mean every protagonist of every game should be theoretically capable of soloing every map?

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14 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

For fun, the idea sounds amazing.

Balance wise, I could see that getting ugly. As long as they dont go with the idea of "dancer shouldnt be able to fight well!" 

Your MC should always be able to fight, cause if they cant and you have no units left... hard lock.

how do you have literally no units left... ever? in what occasion? how did the lord somehow not die yet and get you a game over (unless this is casual mode and then who cares)? how did you not even reset long before getting to the point of the lord being your last unit, even in an ironman setting? this worry is absolutely not realistic.

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We almost had a dancer lord with Azura. It can work in a game with two lords, the second lord gets the rapier. 

 

On 12/6/2020 at 1:01 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

 

    • Since dancers don't use weapons, they exist outside the weapon triangle. We've all heard complaints about there being too many sword lords, and I think part of the problem with that comes from their relationship to the weapon triangle, though I'm not quite sure how to articulate it. Since dancers exist outside the weapon triangle, their effectiveness (and vulnerability) is more consistent.

Most dancers use weapons. Only the GBA dancers and laguz that don't. Give the lord/dancer a magic sword or make them the songstress class so they can wield lances and javelins so they can attack in distance in enemy phase. If it's a bard the lord could use a tome. Also give the dancer a story related promotion more towards the middle-end of the game, so if she/he reach levels 20, he/she won't became too broken. 

Edited by Mylady

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2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Does that mean every protagonist of every game should be theoretically capable of soloing every map?

Well, consider that some people really arent good at strategy. They should be able to rely on their MC, who is forced along. And besides Micaiah, they kind of already are. 

2 hours ago, Axie said:

how do you have literally no units left... ever? in what occasion? how did the lord somehow not die yet and get you a game over (unless this is casual mode and then who cares)? how did you not even reset long before getting to the point of the lord being your last unit, even in an ironman setting? this worry is absolutely not realistic.

Not impossible, as I know someone who's been in that position.  Not everyone wants to reset everytime bad luck comes their way. But sure, you're allowed to believe people should only play one way, that's fine.

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1 hour ago, lightcosmo said:

Not impossible, as I know someone who's been in that position.  Not everyone wants to reset everytime bad luck comes their way. But sure, you're allowed to believe people should only play one way, that's fine.

you can play however you want, you can solo T776 with ronan for all i care, just... don't expect game design to take all of your playstyle ideas into account lmao

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2 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

Well, consider that some people really arent good at strategy. They should be able to rely on their MC, who is forced along. And besides Micaiah, they kind of already are. 

Not impossible, as I know someone who's been in that position.  Not everyone wants to reset everytime bad luck comes their way. But sure, you're allowed to believe people should only play one way, that's fine.

dunno about micaiah so i dont understand what that signifies

but even if someone didnt reset everytime, down to the last man is basically iron man, and thats pretty hardcore i say. and if game design were to be blamed for that...

i dunno, feels like how a fighting game has complicated moves, so since i cant do that complicated combo, so should simple (same) button mashing combo should be as strong as complicated one since people like me cant do it ?

well theres auto mode. and theres casual mode

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10 minutes ago, joevar said:

i dunno, feels like how a fighting game has complicated moves, so since i cant do that complicated combo, so should simple (same) button mashing combo should be as strong as complicated one since people like me cant do it ?

well theres auto mode. and theres casual mode

Do you mean like soul Calibur style fighting games? If so, then I can agree, they shouldnt be so complex that most people cant perform them. Not everyone wants to stress put over something like that.

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11 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

Well, consider that some people really arent good at strategy. They should be able to rely on their MC, who is forced along. And besides Micaiah, they kind of already are. 

Not impossible, as I know someone who's been in that position.  Not everyone wants to reset everytime bad luck comes their way. But sure, you're allowed to believe people should only play one way, that's fine.

Roy and DS Marth I highly doubt it. At least in higher difficulties. Though DS games do have replacement units.

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16 hours ago, Jotari said:

Does that mean every protagonist of every game should be theoretically capable of soloing every map?

Alternative solutions include making other powerful units a "game over" condition (a la Radiant Dawn), or adding at least one new playable unit who can hold their own per map. I'd venture against a "softlocking should be impossible" paradigm, though, mainly because managing units, funds, and weapons is a cross-chapter challenge.

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28 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Alternative solutions include making other powerful units a "game over" condition (a la Radiant Dawn), or adding at least one new playable unit who can hold their own per map. I'd venture against a "softlocking should be impossible" paradigm, though, mainly because managing units, funds, and weapons is a cross-chapter challenge.

Indeed. An idea that the game is always theoretically possible to beat is pretty counter intuitive to a system with durability. As you could theoretically drop all your weapons and spend all your money and find yourself unable to attack unless there's something like Awakening's Falchion which is an infinite weapon gained from the start. Of course any human being who is able to actually clear the levels in the game should never rationally find themself in such a situation unless they are intentionally doing it. So I don't think it should hold too much weight when these scenarios are highly unlikely. Like obviously things like you need to open this door to complete the level and all your thieves are dead and you can't buy keys in the chapter your in should be avoided as that's a soft lock someone easily could find themself in despite their best efforts. But coming to the final chapters of the game and literally every unit except the lord is dead, I don't think the chapters should specifically be designed to still be beatable in such a condition (though of course people who know how to break the game still being able to pull off a lord solo is still great, the game just shouldn't expect it to be a situation a player might naturally find themself in). That being said the Shadow Dragon style generic replacement units aren't a bad concept at all near as I can see so I wouldn't have much issue with them being included in all games in some form to have some potential safe guard against being bad enough at the game to lose an entire army.

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1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Indeed. An idea that the game is always theoretically possible to beat is pretty counter intuitive to a system with durability. As you could theoretically drop all your weapons and spend all your money and find yourself unable to attack unless there's something like Awakening's Falchion which is an infinite weapon gained from the start.

You could also give no experience to your lord and kill off every other unit, which would probably result in a few unwinnable chapters. Every game, not just Fire Emblem, has unwinnable scenarios, and considering all these factors I don't think such factors need to be accounted for. Providing thieves and chest keys should be done, as should providing some powerful units throughout the game (filling a similar role to Perceval in Binding Blade), but I don't think it wise to get bogged down in extreme cases.

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5 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

You could also give no experience to your lord and kill off every other unit, which would probably result in a few unwinnable chapters. Every game, not just Fire Emblem, has unwinnable scenarios, and considering all these factors I don't think such factors need to be accounted for. Providing thieves and chest keys should be done, as should providing some powerful units throughout the game (filling a similar role to Perceval in Binding Blade), but I don't think it wise to get bogged down in extreme cases.

I'd actually say it's quite rare beyond Fire Emblem. Fire Emblem is pretty distinct in that it A) Has permadeath and B) It (typically) is a linear game with progress being achieved by clearing the current chapter. Pokemon for example (or basically any RPG) is neither of these things, people have managed to find ways to soft lock Pokemon by doing bizarre sequence breaking things and saving against the elite four with specific pokemon types in older games where enemies can't run out of PP, but typically if you play really badly and kill all your Pokemon you can just revive them, train them more and then beat any challenge. Same for something like Zelda. No matter how many times you get game overs or run out of arrows, you can just keep trying infinitely. Even a lot of strategy games when ever you start a given level your progress in previous levels is largely unimportant beyond some key bonus resources, meaning the game provides you with exactly enough resources you need to clear the current challenge in question. Now of course this isn't the case for every game out there, but most games are pretty resistant to a feasible soft lock. Playing badly in Fire Embelm can get you into something of a soft locked situation. It's just that you'd have to play, really, really badly to the point that you probably shouldn't be playing in on the difficulty mode your attempting in the first place.

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28 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I'd actually say it's quite rare beyond Fire Emblem.

I mean, I don't mean to be semantic...but I will be.

If you're falling into a pit in a platformer, you're generally in a no-win situation. I understand the amount of content you have to redo is significantly greater in Fire Emblem even if you just have to reset the chapter than when you fall down a pit in Mega Man or Mario, but you're still in a situation where it is no longer possible to win without some sort of reset. Now, those scenarios are not softlocks since the save file is still beatable, but they are no win situations. Since I mean to be semantic. Now that I look at it I think we just weren't distinguishing between two different things, my mistake.

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4 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

You could also give no experience to your lord and kill off every other unit, which would probably result in a few unwinnable chapters. Every game, not just Fire Emblem, has unwinnable scenarios, and considering all these factors I don't think such factors need to be accounted for. Providing thieves and chest keys should be done, as should providing some powerful units throughout the game (filling a similar role to Perceval in Binding Blade), but I don't think it wise to get bogged down in extreme cases.

Yeah pretty much.

Almost every game in theory that has some sort of resource can get in an unwinnable/near-unwinnable state if you mess up badly enough.

It's just that usually going back to the last checkpoint/save-state is usually enough to bail you out.

While it's not actually needed that much (Since the game basically forces you to DIvine Pulse and has a lower unit count, not to mention the fact that Garreg Mach adds more than a handful of hours to replay if you do need to actually revert.) Three Houses having more than 3-4 Save slots would actually in theory help this, just add an in-game tip (Since people frequently forget to save in more than one slot) to maybe save in different slot if you win but take a few casualties, or I guess add a feature like ARMA, where you can "Revert" back to previous chapters and start playing from there.  

A Dancer Lord wouldn't really change anything too much in terms of "unwinnable" as you're pretty much screwed if you only have Roy in FE6 and he's probably not the only example.

Edited by Samz707

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