The removal of HMs was to the series’ detriment

[Lord_Brand]

On 12/6/2020 at 7:43 PM, lightcosmo said:

I think it's mostly cause people dont like the inconvenience of having to get rid of good attacks, for crap like cut. (Lol) waste of time and an attack slot just creates artificial difficulty, really.

That and people nowadays dont have the patience to swap pokemon In and out of a box, I guess. Not trying to jab anyone, just my opinion/observation.

Not gonn lie, things like the strength puzzles were neat, when applied of course. But HM's like cut (lol) need to be more useful in battle, for them to warrant existing at all, imo.

It would have helped if Cut was at least as good as, say, Slash, as opposed to being barely better than Tackle. A 70-power high crit would actually be serviceable for most of the game. Same for Strength; it's basically Slam but with 10 less PP, 25% more accuracy, and you need it to push boulders. I mean, sakes, if we're gonna be forced to use those things to progress, at least make them moves we'll want to use anyway, like Surf and Fly.

But then here's the thing: Making TMs reusable and replacing HMs with TMs ensures you have the abilities needed to proceed while also giving you the flexibility to replace those moves if you don't need them at the moment. No Move Deleter needed, you just teach your Blastoise how to Surf while you're swimming, then put Hydro Pump or Ice Beam back on it once you're done.

[Lightcosmo]

9 minutes ago, Lord_Brand said:

It would have helped if Cut was at least as good as, say, Slash, as opposed to being barely better than Tackle. A 70-power high crit would actually be serviceable for most of the game. Same for Strength; it's basically Slam but with 10 less PP, 25% more accuracy, and you need it to push boulders. I mean, sakes, if we're gonna be forced to use those things to progress, at least make them moves we'll want to use anyway, like Surf and Fly.

But then here's the thing: Making TMs reusable and replacing HMs with TMs ensures you have the abilities needed to proceed while also giving you the flexibility to replace those moves if you don't need them at the moment. No Move Deleter needed, you just teach your Blastoise how to Surf while you're swimming, then put Hydro Pump or Ice Beam back on it once you're done.

I think anything could have helped cut. Its easily the most trash HM in gen 1. And one of the most trash in gen 2 (beaten out by Whirlpool, imo)

[henrymidfields]

I've always wondered why the useless ones like Cut are Normal-type moves (and thus no supereffective opportunities). It would have been nice if Cut was a Steel-type move, if only because of say Charmander potentially type-countering against Rock types. Strength should definitely be Fighting, Rock Climb could either be Ground or Rock-type move, and so on. If it going to be a crappy move, then at least be a generally crappy move that has potential type-countering moves as an exception. 

[Lord_Brand]

HMs were a terrible idea. While the concept of your Pokemon interacting with the world around you sounds neat on paper, in practice it just forces you to pick particular parties which conflicts with the open team building nature of Pokemon. The fact that they had certain non-HM moves like Teleport and Dig work outside of battle proves HMs were unnecessary. They should have just made all TMs reusable and not bothered with the "can't forget this move" restriction. HMs were the single dumbest idea the series ever had.

[vanguard333]

4 hours ago, henrymidfields said:

I've always wondered why the useless ones like Cut are Normal-type moves (and thus no supereffective opportunities). It would have been nice if Cut was a Steel-type move, if only because of say Charmander potentially type-countering against Rock types. Strength should definitely be Fighting, Rock Climb could either be Ground or Rock-type move, and so on. If it going to be a crappy move, then at least be a generally crappy move that has potential type-countering moves as an exception. 

Charmander does learn Metal Claw, which fulfills that roll. Plus, you don't get cut until shortly before the third gym, so it wouldn't be able to help Charmander against the rock-type gym. I agree about the rest though; those would probably be better as moves that aren't normal type.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 12/6/2020 at 7:57 PM, Maof06 said:

Disagree, Sun and Moon's Poké Ride is vastly superior.

I think my preferred system would be "Poke Ride, but you can do it with your own Pokemon". So, instead of calling a Tauros to ride and break boulders, you could "call" one of your own Pokemon that's considered compatible. Some you ride (i.e. Rhyhorn, Ponyta, Scolipede), others who walk in front of the trainer (i.e. Machop, Nidorino, Meditite), whom you can control to break obstacles. And another set who surf, another who fly, etc (some overlapping). These lists should be fairly long (to not overly constrain team-building), and instead of needing a certain move, you just need the right badge or story progression to get the technique.

[Venger_06]

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I think my preferred system would be "Poke Ride, but you can do it with your own Pokemon". So, instead of calling a Tauros to ride and break boulders, you could "call" one of your own Pokemon that's considered compatible. Some you ride (i.e. Rhyhorn, Ponyta, Scolipede), others who walk in front of the trainer (i.e. Machop, Nidorino, Meditite), whom you can control to break obstacles. And another set who surf, another who fly, etc (some overlapping). These lists should be fairly long (to not overly constrain team-building), and instead of needing a certain move, you just need the right badge or story progression to get the technique.

That would be ideal, but then I ask you: would Gamefreak do that? Considering that animating almost 1000 pokémon would be a lot of work and they've been getting lazy since X / Y, I believe not. What we got in the 7th generation was, realistically, the best they could give us.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

16 hours ago, Maof06 said:

That would be ideal, but then I ask you: would Gamefreak do that? Considering that animating almost 1000 pokémon would be a lot of work and they've been getting lazy since X / Y, I believe not. What we got in the 7th generation was, realistically, the best they could give us.

Well, uh, technically... nah. With all the corners we've seen cut since moving to "3D", I don't envision this as likely. I'd actually say the "closest" we got to my proposal was in HGSS - in that game, if you have the Pokemon out walking with you use an HM (like Cut), the Sprite does so in the field. My system would be that, minus them actually having to know the move. But since nobody at GameFreak got time for that anymore, a Gen VII model is the best we could do.

[Lord_Brand]

The main issue is that Pokemon is heavily merchandise-driven - moreso than any other Nintendo IP. They have multiple animated series and a TCG on top of the usual swag. So, the developers don't get a lot of time to develop their games compared to, say, Zelda or even Mario. The upside to that is Nintendo's other IPs have less pressure on them since Pokemon is already such a moneymaker, so we're able to get passion projects like SMO and BotW.

I've got a suggestion for a new HM-esque mechanic: Type obstacles. Basically, instead of knowing the right move, you just need a Pokemon of the right type. Want to dig in the ground? Use a Ground-Type. Want to put out a fire or swim across water? You need a Water-Type. Want to melt ice? Get that Fire-type warmed up. Want to push a boulder or smash a rock? Call upon the might of your Fighting-Type.

Basically, it comes down to extending the various type dynamics to the world outside of combat. Obstacles, hazards, terrain, and weather can all have type associations just as Pokemon and moves do. If you know how one type affects another, you'll have a pretty good idea of how to pass a given obstacle or how to navigate certain environments.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

2 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

Basically, it comes down to extending the various type dynamics to the world outside of combat. Obstacles, hazards, terrain, and weather can all have type associations just as Pokemon and moves do. If you know how one type affects another, you'll have a pretty good idea of how to pass a given obstacle or how to navigate certain environments.

I could see this going into some funny territory. Like, using a Bug-type to spin a web bridge that lets you cross a chasm. Or, an Electric-type turning on a giant up-facing fan, so that you can get around on the blades. Maybe each gym could have a puzzle that requires a Pokemon of the leader's favored type!

[Lord_Brand]

I could see that. I could also see the Gyms having obstacles that can be cleared with super-effective types, either granting access to bonus items or allowing you to bypass Trainers and take shortcuts to the Gym Leader.

There is one obvious interaction that wouldn't make much sense with the current type chart though: Ice freezing Water. Water-types are resistant to Ice even though many other games present Ice as effective against Water, when they aren't the same element. However, the idea that Ice could freeze Water would imply Ice is super effective against Water, which isn't currently the case in Pokemon. I wouldn't complain if they changed that of course, they did alter Bug and Poison's dynamic from one of mutual super effectiveness in Gen 1 to one-sided resistance in Gen 2, after all. For that matter, I don't get why Poison isn't super effective against Water, since aquatic creatures are just as susceptible to pollution as plants.

Edited February 7, 2021 by Lord_Brand

[henrymidfields]

On 1/27/2021 at 2:40 AM, vanguard333 said:

Charmander does learn Metal Claw, which fulfills that roll. Plus, you don't get cut until shortly before the third gym, so it wouldn't be able to help Charmander against the rock-type gym. I agree about the rest though; those would probably be better as moves that aren't normal type.

I was thinking more in lines of PvP battles where type-counter moves become more important. So for example, I think Venusaur and Torterra can learn Rock Climb in Gen 4. If it was a rock-type move, then Venusaur and Torterra has a better chance beating Bug, Fire, and Ice types.

[vanguard333]

7 hours ago, henrymidfields said:

I was thinking more in lines of PvP battles where type-counter moves become more important. So for example, I think Venusaur and Torterra can learn Rock Climb in Gen 4. If it was a rock-type move, then Venusaur and Torterra has a better chance beating Bug, Fire, and Ice types.

Oh, I see. That makes sense.

That could have worked, though Torterra did have options for rock-type moves via TMs: rock tomb, rock slide and stone edge (I'm just listing the rock type moves it had available, not how viable they are). Stone Edge in particular is pretty powerful, though 80 accuracy is definitely a concern. I'm pretty sure I even taught my starter Torterra one of them.

I think Torterra's main problem in gen 4 was almost all its powerful grass type moves being special moves when it's a physical attacker (a reverse of Sceptile's problem in gen 4). You either had to obtain seed bomb via breeding or use wood hammer, which is a grass type version of flare blitz/brave bird (i.e. good accuracy and lots of power, but also lots of recoil).

[Venger_06]

On 2/7/2021 at 10:57 AM, vanguard333 said:

Oh, I see. That makes sense.

That could have worked, though Torterra did have options for rock-type moves via TMs: rock tomb, rock slide and stone edge (I'm just listing the rock type moves it had available, not how viable they are). Stone Edge in particular is pretty powerful, though 80 accuracy is definitely a concern. I'm pretty sure I even taught my starter Torterra one of them.

I think Torterra's main problem in gen 4 was almost all its powerful grass type moves being special moves when it's a physical attacker (a reverse of Sceptile's problem in gen 4). You either had to obtain seed bomb via breeding or use wood hammer, which is a grass type version of flare blitz/brave bird (i.e. good accuracy and lots of power, but also lots of recoil).

The main problem with Torterra is that its too slow. That and grass types mostly suck.

[Ottservia]

On 2/10/2021 at 9:56 PM, Maof06 said:

That and grass types mostly suck.

Ferrothorn would like to have a word with you

also you are both wrong and right the primary issue with Torterra(as far as competitive viability is concerned) is it’s typing in combination with its low speed. Grass/Ground is actually a really good offensive type especially physically. Stab earthquake is always good to have access too on any physically offensive Pokémon. The problem is Torterra’s stats lean more towards being a tank/wall than a sweeper and with a typing like that yeah.... not ideal. It’s not the worst defensive type out there(oh hi Aggron) but being quad weak to ice in a meta where ice beam is so prevalent is not ideal especially with that low of a special defense stat. Also Ferrothorn is a thing which as far as being a bulky grass type goes outclasses torterra in every regard. And as far as offensive grass types go well there’s venusaur who is a poison type which has the added benefit of being immune to toxic and being able to avoid toxic spikes. Torterra is just flat out outclassed by other grass types that can do what it does but better and then some both with better stats and typings. Torterra isn’t the worst Grass type out there and it definitely has its niche in the lower tiers but there are just better grass types you could be using. 

Edited February 12, 2021 by Ottservia

[Lightcosmo]

On 2/10/2021 at 9:56 PM, Maof06 said:

That and grass types mostly suck.

Them's fighting words!

[Venger_06]

8 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Ferrothorn would like to have a word with you

The exception proves the rule. Also, I said that the majority of them suck, not that literally every single grass type sucks.

8 hours ago, Ottservia said:

also you are both wrong and right the primary issue with Torterra(as far as competitive viability is concerned) is it’s typing in combination with its low speed.

I was talking about main campaign viability. As Vanguard said, Torterra only learns 2 good physical moves in D/P/P, and they're a hassle to get/use, so if you want grass utility you're better off using Roserade. Torterra can of course spam earthquake to kill enemies, but it will always attack after the opponent, so its bulk will eventually be compromised. There's also better ground types in Sinnoh too. And if you really want a tank, Empoleon does this role better, since it has more resistances and has a good offensive movepool.

2 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

Them's fighting words!

Many my favorite pokémon are grass types. Gamefreak, buff grass plz🥺 . Please buff ice too.

[NegativeExponents-]

Anyone who thinks that the subpar exploration in recent games would somehow be better if HM's were still around is deluding themselves. It'd be the same exact thing but with the extra tedium that nobody likes. The problem isn't that GF got rid of stuff like Surf, Strength, Rock Smash, etc., because they didn't (well not most of them anyway), as there is essentially no difference between having to use the HM Surf vs riding Lapras/Sharpedo/Rotom-Bike across water, or using Strength vs riding Machamp (̶ ̶͡°̶ ̶͜ʖ̶ ̶͡°̶)̶. The problem is that GF just doesn't give a shit anymore about putting any effort into making exploration interesting. Either that or they've become creatively bankrupt and truly think that the bare minimum is exciting.

[Lord_Brand]

On 2/7/2021 at 5:57 AM, vanguard333 said:

I think Torterra's main problem in gen 4 was almost all its powerful grass type moves being special moves when it's a physical attacker (a reverse of Sceptile's problem in gen 4).

Yeah, I hate when they do that. They build the Pokemon for one type of attack, then give it mostly attacks of the other type. Why?

[vanguard333]

4 minutes ago, Lord_Brand said:

Yeah, I hate when they do that. They build the Pokemon for one type of attack, then give it mostly attacks of the other type. Why?

The weirdest part is that gen 4 introduced the physical/special split depending on the specific attack rather than the type, which makes Torterra especially weird. Sceptile at least was a victim of updates, with all his grass-type moves suddenly becoming physical attacks in gen 4 after all grass-type moves had been special attacks in gen 3. 

 

4 hours ago, Maof06 said:

I was talking about main campaign viability. As Vanguard said, Torterra only learns 2 good physical moves in D/P/P, and they're a hassle to get/use, so if you want grass utility you're better off using Roserade. Torterra can of course spam earthquake to kill enemies, but it will always attack after the opponent, so its bulk will eventually be compromised. There's also better ground types in Sinnoh too. And if you really want a tank, Empoleon does this role better, since it has more resistances and has a good offensive movepool.

I was talking about main campaign viability as well. It has more good physical than that, though not much: wood hammer is powerful (but has recoil), earthquake of course, crunch can be situationally useful, and there's stone edge for dealing with fire, flying, and bug types (with the move for ice types being switch Pokémon) but is only available via TM and I can't remember when/how you get the stone edge TM in D/P/Pl. 

Yeah; Roserade is better for grass utility and Empoleon is better as a tank. But, I almost always went with Torterra, simply because I liked using Torterra, and also because I thought Empoleon is hindered by redundancy via Bibarel inevitably being part of your team. 

[Ottservia]

25 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

The weirdest part is that gen 4 introduced the physical/special split depending on the specific attack rather than the type, which makes Torterra especially weird. Sceptile at least was a victim of updates, with all his grass-type moves suddenly becoming physical attacks in gen 4 after all grass-type moves had been special attacks in gen 3. 

That’s actually not the problem with sceptile. Why sceptile got worse after the physical/special split wasn’t because it’s grass moves became physical because honestly as far as grass stab is concerned both leaf storm and giga drain are far better than seed bomb and leaf blade so in that way Sceptile was actually buffed. What the physical/special split did do, however, was make all of sceptile’s other moves physical meaning sceptile has like no type coverage aside from hidden power. Sceptile gets great moves like earthquake, thunder punch, outrage, X-scissor, rock slide, etc. which would give it amazing type coverage if they weren’t all physical moves. Hell it even gets swords dance as a boosting move which would be great on a physical attacker but sceptile isn’t a physical attacker. Like 90 atk isn’t terrible mind you but if most of your move pool hovers around the 80-90 power range you’re gonna need a higher attack stat than that. 

[vanguard333]

7 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

That’s actually not the problem with sceptile. Why sceptile got worse after the physical/special split wasn’t because it’s grass moves became physical because honestly as far as grass stab is concerned both leaf storm and giga drain are far better than seed bomb and leaf blade so in that way Sceptile was actually buffed. What the physical/special split did do, however, was make all of sceptile’s other moves physical meaning sceptile has like no type coverage aside from hidden power. Sceptile gets great moves like earthquake, thunder punch, outrage, X-scissor, rock slide, etc. which would give it amazing type coverage if they weren’t all physical moves. Hell it even gets swords dance as a boosting move which would be great on a physical attacker but sceptile isn’t a physical attacker. Like 90 atk isn’t terrible mind you but if most of your move pool hovers around the 80-90 power range you’re gonna need a higher attack stat than that. 

Thank you; I should've just said "moves" rather than grass-type moves.

[Lightcosmo]

Welp, I guess they need to go back to gen 1 Psychic types, I guess! Xd

Seriously now: even with things like the P/S split, grass pokemon simply have low stats, and in gen 1 and 2, their only redeeming quality was Sleep Powder, which they killed. 

Gen 3 didn't introduce many great ones, as with gen 4.

Gen 5 has Snivy which was something cause it at least has Coil, which is good. 

Past that, I couldn't say as I really dont take interest in any generation past that point cause they blew the game out of proportion. 

[Venger_06]

4 hours ago, NegativeExponents- said:

The problem is that GF just doesn't give a shit anymore about putting any effort into making exploration interesting. Either that or they've become creatively bankrupt and truly think that the bare minimum is exciting.

Masuda thinks children are dumb. Thanks to mothers complaining that their children got lost on Mt. Coronet and the "commercial failure" of his passion project, he only cares about getting more money.

39 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

Gen 5 has Snivy which was something cause it at least has Coil, which is good. 

Don't forget Contrary + Leaf Storm Serperior!

3 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Yeah; Roserade is better for grass utility and Empoleon is better as a tank. But, I almost always went with Torterra, simply because I liked using Torterra, and also because I thought Empoleon is hindered by redundancy via Bibarel inevitably being part of your team. 

Fair enough. It is a good thing that you can beat the game smoothly using your favorites. Although I have to say Bibarel cannot replicate Empoleon's performance as a tank, unless it is used as a sacrificial lamb.

[Lightcosmo]

14 minutes ago, Maof06 said:

Don't forget Contrary + Leaf Storm Serperior!

Huh, didn't know that, cool!