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Yexin

"""Weapon Triangle""", Fists and Daggers - Ideas for my Fan-Project

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i think this is the right place where to create this topic; if not, i'm sorry

anyway, getting on topic
today i came up with what i'd like the """weapon triangle""" and the Fists weapon type to be in a fan-project i wish to realize some very distant day

why all those quotation marks, you ask?
well that's simple, it's because this is not a triangle

to make things easier to explain for me and to understand for you, here are two summaries:

"""Weapon Triangle"""

Spoiler

 

Additional Advantages (only when initiating attack)

Swords, Axes, Lances, Fire, Wind, Thunder, Light, Dark, Fists --> Daggers
Bows -->
 Swords, Axes, Lances, Fists, Daggers
Daggers -->
 All except Daggers (neutral)
NOTE: Daggers are 1-2 range physical weapons and negate enemy counterattack when initiating, but are unable to counterattack when enemy initiates

Both initiating attack and defending (regular Weapon Triangle mechanics)

Swords --> Axes
Axes -->
 Lances
Lances -->
 Swords
Fire -->
 Wind, Light, Fists
Wind -->
 Thunder, Light, Fists
Thunder -->
 Fire, Light, Fists
Light -->
 Dark, Fists
Dark -->
 Fire, Wind, Thunder, Fists

 

 Fists

Spoiler

 

Hermit/Ascetic-exclusive Weapon Type, cannot unequip (due to them being natural weapons), and becomes stronger as Weapon Ranks increases (Mt, Hit and Crt boosts)
Equippable Gauntlets will also be available, but that's another topic.

As you've seen in the previous summary, when Hermits/Ascetics initiate attack, they have Weapon Advantage (WA) against Daggers, Disadvantage (WD) against Magic, and are neutral against other weapons.
When enemy initiates attack, Hermits/Ascetics have WD against Magic, Daggers and Bows, while they’re neutral against other weapons.

Through fighting, a Hermit/Ascetic improves and comprehends how to best counter other weapons, eventually obtaining WA against them, effectively altering regular WAs and WDs (this only applies to Hermits/Ascetics). This newly obtained WA is always applied (both initiating and defending), allowing players to create an always unique and different character, depending on the team’s needs or personal preferenfces.

WA against a certain weapon is obtained when Weapon Rank (WR) increases (Level D, C, B, A, S (5 WAs in total)).

When WR increases, the newly obtained WA is determined by the weapon type the Hermit/Ascetic had the most experience (Comprehension Points, CPs) fighting against. Players can see how many CPs Hermits/Ascetics have against each weapon type. Obtaining a certain WA causes it to be eliminated from the list: Hermits/Ascetics can’t obtain the same WA twice for higher bonuses.

CPs are normally obtained through fighting: landing a hit against an enemy who wields a certain weapon, or taking a hit from said enemy, grants +1 CP against that weapon type.
Killing an enemy who wields weapons of a certain type grants +4 CPs agains that weapon type.

Ex.1: Hermit initiates against Fighter and lands a hit --> +1 CP against Axes
          Fighter counterattacks -->
 +1 CP against Axes
          Hermit attacks again, but Fighter is still alive -->
 +1 CP against Axes (total CPs against Axes gained = 3)

Ex.2: Hermit initiates against Bow Knight wielding a Steel Bow, but misses --> No CPs obtained
         Bow Knight is unable to counterattack -->
 No CP is gained
         Hermit attacks again, Bow Knight is defeated -->
 +4 CPs against Bows (total CPs against Bows gained = 4)

If two or more WAs have the same amount of CP when WR increases, the player can choose which one the Hermit/Ascetic will obtain, then the chosen WA will be eliminated from the list.

While advancing through the game, players will obtain rare items who increase CPs, to grant players a wider margin of error.

If Hermits/Ascetics gain WR through items such as Weapon Scrolls, and have NO CP against any weapon type, they will obtain NO WA: at least 1 CP against one weapon type is required in order to obtain WA against that.

 

 

so, what do you think about these concepts? is my """weapon triangle""" too messy? are Fists broken?
please let me know

Edited by Yexin

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Hmm, take my thoughts with a grail of salt, but i will write them xD

First, i think it's too complex of a system, and you need to streamline it a bit.

For example, the additional advantages could be turned into skills that are gained for certain classes instead (for example, non-mounted or mono-version), and will make it more streamlined, so to say.

As for the WA/CP system, to my understanding it's more like EVs from pokemon, right? It sounds a bit complex, but could work. But wouldn't that make Fists really op later on? If my understanding is right, if you reach S rank (even if super rare) with someone, that someone can have WTA over 5 weapons, or in a more realistic scenario (B rank) 3 weapons. And what about prepromotes/those who come with a rank? Will they come with set advantages?

Hope that helps a bit^^

Also i confused CP with a trails like CP system at first haha

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1 hour ago, Shrimperor said:

Hmm, take my thoughts with a grail of salt, but i will write them xD

First, i think it's too complex of a system, and you need to streamline it a bit.

For example, the additional advantages could be turned into skills that are gained for certain classes instead (for example, non-mounted or mono-version), and will make it more streamlined, so to say.

yeah, i feared that it would sound a bit overcomplicated, and i can't really say it isn't

my idea was to incentivize players not to turtle maps by adding bonuses that can only be obtained by taking the initiative, but since i personally like %-based skills better, this is what i came up with

i'd say that if you think like "bows have WA against all melee weapons when initiating combat" and "daggers always have WA when initiating while WD when defending" and so on, it doesn't sound THAT complicated, if i'm allowed to be so blunt

also, the idea behind Daggers' WA and WD is that, if units equipped with this weapon type initiate, their enemies are taken by surprise, which is represented by having WD and being unable to counterattack
at the same time, if Dagger units fail to be stealthy, they are unable to fight their enemies on equal terms, so they get WD and are unable to counterattack instead
don't know if it even makes that much sense to begin with, i just thought it could've worked as a gameplay mechanic

anyway, some friends of mine told me to cut down weapon types, and honestly i think they're right: i think i would simply take Fire, Wind and Thunder out, as much as it pains me, since that's my favorite version of the Magic Trinity, but yeah i can agree on the fact that they often feel like something unnecessary

1 hour ago, Shrimperor said:

As for the WA/CP system, to my understanding it's more like EVs from pokemon, right? It sounds a bit complex, but could work. But wouldn't that make Fists really op later on? If my understanding is right, if you reach S rank (even if super rare) with someone, that someone can have WTA over 5 weapons, or in a more realistic scenario (B rank) 3 weapons. And what about prepromotes/those who come with a rank? Will they come with set advantages?

Hope that helps a bit^^

yeah, the EVs system from pokemon was what i took a lot of inspiration from yes i could've said it since the beginning, that would've helped understand everything much better

yes, Hermits/Ascetics would eventually be very strong by the last chapters
it could be balanced by making Fists units gain a WD depending on what WA they gain (ex. WA against Swords and WD against Axes, effectively making them something similar to a Halberdier)
or i could just decrease the times Fists units gain WAs (ex. from E to D, from C to B and from A to S, for a total of 3 WAs)

given Hermits'/Ascetics' heavily customizable nature, they would join really early, with an E rank
also, my idea was that players had access to only one Hermit/Ascetic, but if i were to add another, then yes, this would have set advantages

1 hour ago, Shrimperor said:

Hmm, take my thoughts with a grail of salt, but i will write them xD

First, i think it's too complex of a system, and you need to streamline it a bit.

For example, the additional advantages could be turned into skills that are gained for certain classes instead (for example, non-mounted or mono-version), and will make it more streamlined, so to say.

As for the WA/CP system, to my understanding it's more like EVs from pokemon, right? It sounds a bit complex, but could work. But wouldn't that make Fists really op later on? If my understanding is right, if you reach S rank (even if super rare) with someone, that someone can have WTA over 5 weapons, or in a more realistic scenario (B rank) 3 weapons. And what about prepromotes/those who come with a rank? Will they come with set advantages?

Hope that helps a bit^^

Also i confused CP with a trails like CP system at first haha

LMAO that's legit, but i honestly could't come up with a better name

anyway, thank you so much for the time you spent sharing your opinions, it truly means a lot to me

Edited by Yexin

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10 minutes ago, Yexin said:

i'd say that if you think like "bows have WA against all melee weapons when initiating combat" and "daggers always have WA when initiating while WD when defending" and so on, it doesn't sound THAT complicated, if i'm allowed to be so blunt

Yeah when you say it like that it doesn't sound complicated haha.

10 minutes ago, Yexin said:

my idea was to incentivize players not to turtle maps by adding bonuses that can only be obtained by taking the initiative

Another idea that i've seen being used to do that: Doubling only when initiating (if you have doubling)

10 minutes ago, Yexin said:

anyway, some friends of mine told me to cut down weapon types, and honestly i think they're right: i think i would simply take Fire, Wind and Thunder out, as much as it pains me, since that's my favorite version of the Magic Trinity, but yeah i can agree on the fact that they often feel like something unnecessary

Idea: Keep them in, but to make them necessary make them do effective damage against certain targets (ala Tellius) and/or deal effective damage when having WA against other magic units.

Will change the dyamic of the magic 'triangle' completely, i think.

10 minutes ago, Yexin said:

anyway, thank you so much for the time you spent sharing your opinions, it truly means a lot to me

Npnp, as someone who wants to create something someday although very unlikely, i like to give feedback on fanprojects i play and ideas i see^^

Edited by Shrimperor

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18 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

Another idea that i've seen being used to do that: Doubling only when initiating (if you have doubling)

mmmh, that might be interesting, as it makes armor knights and generals a little bit more useful in enemy phase, and at the same time makes speed-dodge tanking much less effective
i honestly can't tell if i like my "extra WAs only on Player Phase" idea better than the one you suggested, but i think i'll stick with mine, i don't want to "steal" someone else's idea

18 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

Idea: Keep them in, but to make them necessary make them do effective damage against certain targets (ala Tellius) and/or deal effective damage when having WA against other magic units.

oh yeah, i really like this, maybe with Thunder being effective against Dragons and Wyvern Knights/Lords, Wind against Pegasus/Falco Knights and Fire agains horseback units such as Paladins or Great Knights

Edited by Yexin

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Probably if I read it 2 or 3 times, it might start to make sense, but after 1 read I'm not following at all.

This reminds me of how I handled weapon triangles in my first version of my FE DnD system. I made everything a triangle, classic weapon triangle, standard magic triangle, anima triangle, bows>daggers>staves, and magic>classic>sidearms. My players were just very confused and never looked at it.

Now I simply have the classic and magic triangles, to differentiate the weapon types I gave daggers the shade and steal abilities, bows get 2-3 range but always have disadvantage at 1 range, and anima spell types each have their own effectiveness. I dare to say my players are happier now.

If you want to incentivise the players to play more offensively, why not take a page from Advanced Wars' book? Have a unit's stats decrease as they lose health. Except maybe give bosses a 'last stand' ability or something, highering stats while under 20% hp instead, or something like that.

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6 hours ago, whase said:

Probably if I read it 2 or 3 times, it might start to make sense, but after 1 read I'm not following at all.

This reminds me of how I handled weapon triangles in my first version of my FE DnD system. I made everything a triangle, classic weapon triangle, standard magic triangle, anima triangle, bows>daggers>staves, and magic>classic>sidearms. My players were just very confused and never looked at it.

yeah, that sounds a little bit too complicated

and while my idea isn't exactly "everything is part of a Weapon Triangle", i can agree on the fact that it might not be clear as day to some players after a first reading
even though i strongly believe in the fact that it's easier to understand something by experiencing it firsthand, and not by just reading it or hearing about it, i guess i shouldn't expect the same from others

6 hours ago, whase said:

Now I simply have the classic and magic triangles, to differentiate the weapon types I gave daggers the shade and steal abilities, bows get 2-3 range but always have disadvantage at 1 range, and anima spell types each have their own effectiveness. I dare to say my players are happier now.

yeah, i can definitely see why
i don't really mean to do something that plays exactly like what you just suggested, but it will probably help me balance things a bit better

6 hours ago, whase said:

If you want to incentivise the players to play more offensively, why not take a page from Advanced Wars' book? Have a unit's stats decrease as they lose health. Except maybe give bosses a 'last stand' ability or something, highering stats while under 20% hp instead, or something like that.

well i'll be honest, i've never played a single Advance Wars game
in my very honest opinion, i don't really like the idea of decreasing stats according to the amount of HPs: that could probably work better in an action game, but in a SRPG, i honestly don't know
as for bosses, they should probably get a topic on their own (which i most likely will make in the next weeks)

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I love the idea of more weapons, but I agree with Shrimperor that it seems a bit too complicated.

This is just a suggestion, mind you, as I am a complete and utter n00b; but here goes... how about conflating daggers and fists into an existing weapon type, i.e. daggers are treated like swords, and fists are treated as axes. (maybe have kicks as lances!)

The advantage to using them would be that although they would have a low base stat, fists and daggers ignore defense stat, like the Luna tome. Also, you can have them be effective against certain units or certain weapons; like having fists be effective against magic users because they're nerds.

looking forward to seeing your work

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20 hours ago, blastov said:

I love the idea of more weapons, but I agree with Shrimperor that it seems a bit too complicated.

This is just a suggestion, mind you, as I am a complete and utter n00b; but here goes... how about conflating daggers and fists into an existing weapon type, i.e. daggers are treated like swords, and fists are treated as axes. (maybe have kicks as lances!)

The advantage to using them would be that although they would have a low base stat, fists and daggers ignore defense stat, like the Luna tome. Also, you can have them be effective against certain units or certain weapons; like having fists be effective against magic users because they're nerds.

looking forward to seeing your work

well the problem of treating knives as swords and fists as axes is that it would probably be even more confusing, like "why do daggers work so differently, if they're treated as swords?" and "why are fists neutral against almost every weapon type if they're treated as axes?"
that's why i decided to make them completely different weapon types

as for kicks, they'd be integrated in hermits' and ascetics' animations, so they could not work as a different weapon type

 

mmmh, daggers ignoring defense is certainly interesting, i'm writing that down
also lmao, i guess that "fists being effective against magic" part makes a lot of sense as well

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