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Anyone else glad the weapon triangle is falling out of favor with intelligent systems?


Whitfield1999
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Don't get me wrong, in FE4 the weapon triangle made a lot of sense. Every game afterwords however, the weapon triangle feels tacked on and kinda just screws with the balance of the game.

I always felt like weapons naturally balanced themselves out anyways, Axes have a lot of might but are heavy and slightly inaccurate. Swords are very light and accurate with relatively low might, plus there's a ton of specialty swords. And lances are in the middle between axes and swords in term of accuracy, weight and might.

 

What are y'alls opinion of the weapon triangle?

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Wouldn't say I'm glad it's gone, but I do think it's a good thing for it to be viewed as just another mechanic to either include or not depending on what suits any given individual game. So, I don't think it's necessary for a good Fire Emblem game, but nor would I say I hope it's gone for good.

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I'll just copy & paste what wrote a few hours ago on this topic.:

"I could do with or without the weapon triangle myself. It is a minor tactical element, but it's not essential, there are plenty of other ways to make maps need brains. Considering how Kaga nerfed it to a minuscule +/-5 Hit in Thracia and has never used it in any of his Saga games, I think it's fair to say he didn't think much of it either. The WT doesn't automatically balance out the weapon types- see the dumpster fire of FE4's weapon balance, and how swords often got the shaft in FEs 7, 8, 9 and 13."

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I liked it, in general. My favorite implementation so far has actually been Fates - in that game, it actually mattered, and it applied to nearly everything. Suddenly Archers have utility not just against fliers, but also against Ninjas. In turn, Ninjas carry an advantage over Mages (granted, Shurikens were serially overtuned), and Mages tend to dodge Archers. Plus, in BR and Rev, the "Dual" Weapons give you an option to turn the system on its head - at some degree of risk. I found the triangle really gave a reason to train up a second weapon type, even in melee-only promotions (like Paladin or Blacksmith).

That said, I was fine with Echoes eschewing it (no playable Axes), and Three Houses made do, differentiating weapon types by the combat arts available. But even 3H added Breaker skills - which I feel, along with the Prowess skills, contributed to some degree of "bloat". If we get a future 3H-style game, I'd like to see fewer equippable skill slots, but stuff like Prowess and Breaker "baked in", as they were in previous titles (but make their effects visible).

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I kind of like it, actually - after the initial learning curve with FEH, it gives a cool tactical dimension beyond simply choosing your favorite character or say, mage of any color - having an actual blue(thunder)/green(wind)/red(fire) mage is vitally important and same can be said about it forcing you to have a broad swath of weapon types. 

Sometimes in Radiant Dawn (EN Hard/JP Maniac)  i felt like it removing the weapon triangle made the gameplay among the characters feel very ... same-y?  even with the laguz in and all.

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I'm mixed on the triangle but I feel like it hides a bigger issue: the weapon types have become very homogeneous. A lot of variety among weapon types has been lost as tools that used to belong to one weapon type (effective weapons, magic weapons) are given to other weapon types. Games with weapon rank bonuses give Atk/Hit boosts that narrow the gap, making the weapons even more samey at higher levels. I also don't like how the weapon triangle modifiers scale with rank when we already have rank bonus negation, I feel like it's redundant and just add more mental math. I'm more interested in broadening the existing weapon pools and making them more unique, maybe even at the cost of removing one of the cardinal weapon types, than bringing back the triangle in full force.

That and I think it's screwed over bows, either by the games' focus on the triangle leaving them overshadowed for being outside of it, or by robbing them of their main selling point: a reliable neutral weapon that avoids counterattacks when range balancing is taken seriously. Never mind that making them disadvantageous against magic is an unnecessary nerf when magic often has the advantage of a more flexible range.

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I don't miss it. I actually prefer FE without it, tbh.

Currently, I'm playing FE3 Book 1 for example, and it not being there doesn't really mean much, IMO. And in most of the games, it doesn't hold much weight overall, barring FE4 and Conquest (from what I've heard). I'd rather have skills and combat arts to function in its place. As OP stated, the weapons tend to work in that way anyway. There's really no need to have an extra system that does what is essentially the same thing.

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5 minutes ago, twilitfalchion said:

Currently, I'm playing FE3 Book 1 for example

I love that game, Hope you're having a good time with it.

5 minutes ago, twilitfalchion said:

And in most of the games, it doesn't hold much weight overall, barring FE4 and Conquest (from what I've heard).

Personally, I think in the GBA fire emblems the weapon triangle holds weight since most enemies use lances and swords kinda just end up sucking. But I totally agree that i'd rather have them as skills and/or combat arts instead.

Edited by Whitfield1999
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8 minutes ago, Whitfield1999 said:

Shadows of Valentia and Three houses doesn't have it (although there are skills that mimic it's affect).

To be honest, I think it's premature to say the weapon triangle is falling out of favor, as the former is a remake of a game that predated it.

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I think it should come back, without their is never really a reason to use more then one weapon on a character. This is made worse with the skills from 3H where it almost handicaps you to try and use 2 weapon types

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Combat Arts as a substitute for the weapon triangle would be great. Part of the problem with triangle relevancy is that the modifiers need to be bigger to make a difference but those mods would be too powerful as passive boosts. The only problem is the lack of doubling on Arts, but that could be fixed by allowing them to double when used against the intended weapon.

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Just now, Shadow Mir said:

To be honest, I think it's premature to say the weapon triangle is falling out of favor, as the former is a remake of a game that predated it.

that's fair, there's a good chance you're right. I just would like it if IS kept doing something new with FE every game instead of thinking it needs to add in mechanics cause it was in the last game. The Weapon triangle has been here for 11 games, I feel like it's been explored as much as it needs to be as a gameplay mechanic.

 

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1 hour ago, Imuabicus said:

I´d much rather have a weapon triangle than generic enemies having Breaker Skills. 

This. This so hard.

 

Aside from that, the WT mostly just makes your tactics a bit trickier. More oft than not, it's the stats on the weapons themselves that make the WT OP (e.g. FE4). For one to be balanced, the other must be, too.

Is the WT necessary? No. But (in my opinion) if it isn't present, the differences between weapon-types must be more extreme (i.e. +2 MT and -10 Hit on Axes, +1 Mt and -5 Hit on Lances, etc.) so as to maintain balance. Otherwise, Axes are best 'cause they hit the hardest.

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give it back and give it in the "everything is part of the triangle" fashion of fates

we could have the trinity of magic not be useless in the possible elibe remakes that way!!

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I wouldn't be opposed to the "make weapons type more distinct" thing but I'm also not a big fan of skills, I scan a guy's inventory and most weapons are self-explanatory while by their nature you have to read the description for every single skill in order to know what exactly it does, which I'm not quite a fan of. 

I'd rather immobilize a guy via having an archer throw a Bola at him for instance rather than some situational skill.

Edited by Samz707
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The most common argument I've ever heard for abolishing the weapon triangle was always "it's unrealistic. Axes lose to everything in real life" and we'd be like dude it's a video game, relax. The other fairly common argument that I remember people giving for abolishing the weapon triangle was always "I don't want to have to scan that cavalier's inventory to see if they're wielding a sword or a lance", especially since there were no guarantees about Fire Emblem remaining on a two screen platform like the DS/3DS. Three Houses has big icons over each enemy telling you their weapon type at a glance, and it's too late now to take advantage of such a good UI update.

 

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I'm a big fan. Without it I don't think there's much value to units gaining new weapon types by promotion or class switching. Archers also were a little better (and they need all the help they can get) when they were outside of the weapons triangle and could never be disadvantaged.  I liked magic having it's own triangle as well. I hope they bring it back.

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1 hour ago, Whitfield1999 said:

Personally, I think in the GBA fire emblems the weapon triangle holds weight since most enemies use lances and swords kinda just end up sucking. But I totally agree that i'd rather have them as skills and/or combat arts instead.

Never in any of the gba games have I ever given the weapon triangle any thought. It has always been irrelevant to me. Which leads into my opinion, that being that if they implement it I just want it to actually matter.

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1 hour ago, Whitfield1999 said:

that's fair, there's a good chance you're right. I just would like it if IS kept doing something new with FE every game instead of thinking it needs to add in mechanics cause it was in the last game. The Weapon triangle has been here for 11 games, I feel like it's been explored as much as it needs to be as a gameplay mechanic.

You have to grant, though, that one version of them doing "something new" was the expanded triangle, in Fates. Knives and bows were previously exempt (and magic had its own thing, sometimes), but no longer. Not to mention - from Shadow Dragon onward, there's been interplay between the triangle and skill level bonuses, so that WTD hurts even more. Finally, the "breaker" skills can be interpreted as a "soft", or "optional" triangle. Far from a stale mechanic that they keep dragging along, I see it as a series staple that they've shown willingness to experiment with, and adapt. Maybe the next game could feature a character whose personal skill reverses the triangle, or one who just ignores it. Or maybe certain combat arts could incorporate the "reaver" effect. That said, if you'd prefer no triangle, that's fine as well.

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