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Differentiating Clones


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10 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you like Suggestion 1

    • Yes
      8
    • No
      1
    • Undecided
      1
  2. 2. Do you like Suggestion 2

    • Yes
      7
    • No
      1
    • Undecided
      2
  3. 3. Do you like Suggestion 3

    • Yes
      9
    • No
      1
    • Undecided
      0
  4. 4. Do you like Suggestion 4

    • Yes
      7
    • No
      2
    • Undecided
      1
  5. 5. Do you like Suggestion 5

    • Yes
      4
    • No
      1
    • Undecided
      5


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Let's talk about how a follow-up could both utilize clones to give us the roster we want, while also making said clones feel distinct and purposeful.

 

How FEW1 does it

FE Warriors 1 distinguishes clones through different Musuos, stats, staff availability and weapons. This rarely works for multiple reasons.

 

Different musuos are essentially just aesthetic flavor, as they just equate to do animation, wipe out screen. They do not change playstyle.

 

Stat spreads don't allow units to stand out, because luck is an uber stat. Luck is by far the most important stat due to Luna/Lethality procs, and characters with lower luck have no opportunity to viably stand out in terms of stats. Leo will always have worse combat than Elise. Chrom will always have worse combat than Lucina.

 

Staff usage is one of the most tangible ways a unit can distinguish itself. Problem is, it very rarely does so. For pegasi, all of them have it. For cavalry tomes, the objectively superior combat unit also has the staff usage. For archers, this really only separates Sakura and Niles from the best combat archer (Anna) and then makes Sakura objectively superior to Niles.

 

Weapon skills are also lacking in nuance, because they only consist of enemy slaying skills, and not every weapon has its own. 

 

Yes, there are exceptions. The system has allowed Lyn to be pretty distinct from Navarre and has allowed Marth to be very distinct from Celica, but these are the exceptions, not the rule.

 

Suggestion 1 - Make Stats Matter

 

Strength and Magic should be valuable in determining damage. Their ratios should be greatly improved.

 

Random skill procs should either be based on both Luck and Skill, the highest of either Luck or Skill, or there should be different random procs for each.

 

Suggestion 2 - Unique Combar Arts

 

Hyrule Warriors Age of Calamity gives every character and each of Link's different movesets their own active ability. Do this for FEW2 as well. 

 

Chrom's active ability could be a massive leap that closes the distance. Lucina's could be an arrow barrage.

 

Bernadetta's active ability could be Vengeance, a combat art that deals damage based on her missing health. Camus could throw his Gradivus in a straight line. Sylvain could do a strike that target's resistance.

 

Suggestion 3 - Every Prf Weapon Gets Unique Skills

 

Give every character's personal weapons unique skills. And don't just limit it to slayer skills. Navarre could get Critical+ on his Wo Dao for example.

 

Suggestion 4 - Every Character Gets Their Personal Skill Inherently

 

Every character should get their personal skill for free and then have 6 skill slots to equip the skills of other characters. Chrom always has Luna. Lucina always has Awakening. Marth always has Paragon. Ryoma always has Astra.

 

Suggestion 5 - Alternate Weapons

 

This one would take the most work but would also have the most tangible effect. Give every character 2 movesets to swap between mid battle. For normal characters, this would be a weapon swap. For transformers, this would be their transformed state.

 

For example, let's look at flying movesets:

Caeda - Sword (shared with Claude, Minerva, and Elincia) and Lance (shared with Hinoka, Cordelia, and Seteth)

Hinoka - Bow (shared with Claude) and Lance (shared with Caeda, Cordelia, and Seteth)

Cordelia - Tome (shared with Elincia and Camilla) and Lance (shared with Caeda, Hinoka, and Seteth)

Elincia - Sword (shared with Claude and Caeda) and Tome (shared with Cordelia and Camilla)

Seteth - Axe (shared with Minerva and Camilla) and Lance (shared with Caeda, Hinoka, and Cordelia)

Minerva - Axe (shared with Seteth and Camilla) and Sword (shared with Caeda, Elincia, and Claude)

Camilla - Axe (Shared with Seteth and Minerva) and Tome (shared with Cordelia and Elincia)

Claude - Bow (shared with Hinoka) and Sword (shared with Caeda, Elincia, and Minerva)

 

Edit: 

This last suggestion comes with two caveats.

The first is that alternate weapons should not increase the already high grind present. Therefore, rare skill drops should be increased and skill KO requirements for weapons (both skill unlocks and prf weapon ascensions) should be halved to compensate.

The second is that alternate weapons should not change movement types. Changing movement type equates to changing character model. This wasn't much of an issue in handheld games where characters used simple class-based 2d sprites or low res 3d models, but it's a substantial problem in a 3d action game as already shown by Three Houses.

Edited by Fabulously Olivier
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I agree with 1, 3 and 4. I’m on the fences with 2 but I do disagree with 5, instead of giving everyone 2 weapons each character should have 1 and their own moveset. Minerva and Camilla shouldn’t have the same fighting style(Minerva has a cap mag of 3 remember). I don’t really wanna see them try and make a check list of weapons.

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3 minutes ago, ciphertul said:

I agree with 1, 3 and 4. I’m on the fences with 2 but I do disagree with 5, instead of giving everyone 2 weapons each character should have 1 and their own moveset. Minerva and Camilla shouldn’t have the same fighting style(Minerva has a cap mag of 3 remember). I don’t really wanna see them try and make a check list of weapons.

Then we wouldn't have clones and the whole discussion would be null. The entire point of clones is that more characters can be added without more animations, thus allowing for a larger roster than would otherwise be possible with the time and budget that KT would allot. Much like echo fighters in Smash.

Edited by Fabulously Olivier
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Just now, Fabulously Olivier said:

Then we wouldn't have clones and the whole discussion would be null. The entire point of clones is that more characters can be added without more animations, thus allowing for a larger roster than would otherwise be possible.

Okay, but then in your point everyone would be half clones. One weapon clones unit B and second weapon clones unit C... that isn’t much better. 

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12 minutes ago, ciphertul said:

Okay, but then in your point everyone would be half clones. One weapon clones unit B and second weapon clones unit C... that isn’t much better. 

That's a fair critique that I think is very much valid to hear. My counterargument, which you may or may not accept is four fold.

 

1) It allows you to pick the moveset you prefer for your character. Maybe you like Seteth but don't like the lance set.

 

2) Weapons may combo into eachother differently, especially if they allow you to swap mid-combo.

 

3) If suggestion 3 is also a yes, each character would have a different innate skill or combination of innate skills on their weapons.

 

4) It allows each character a different coverage of the weapon triangle.

Edited by Fabulously Olivier
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10 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

That's a fair critique that I think is very much valid to hear. My counterargument, which you may or may not accept is four fold.

 

1) It allows you to pick the moveset you prefer for your character. Maybe you like Seteth but don't like the lance set.

 

2) Weapons may combo into eachother differently, especially if they allow you to swap mid-combo.

 

3) If suggestion 4 is also a yes, each character would have a different innate skill or combination of innate skills on their weapons.

 

4) It allows each character a different coverage of the weapon triangle.

Okay my thoughts, 1) That would make some unit more playable (Corrin) but I think if done you should still have characters share weapons sets. Like both Seteth and Minerva having Axe/Lance sets.

2) This would be kinda hard from a mechanic point of view, say you’re attack with a bow and switch weapons to a sword... there is a good chance the enemies will be outside your reach. If done right it would be fine.

3) I don’t see how this matter here, in fact I think it leans the other way, certain characters who get really good skills, like Niles and Olivia now gain an extra skill shot for free while characters with bad skills, Frederick, have even less potential. I think skills would need to be reworked for this to be good. I agreed on it because I think a character shouldn’t have to waste a skill slot on their skill.

4) Triangle coverage is all well and good but it would probably get locked a lot during history maps as it would render the “Only X weapon types” in history mode pointless.

Edited by ciphertul
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21 minutes ago, ciphertul said:

Okay my thoughts, 1) That would make some unit more playable (Corrin) but I think if done you should still have characters share weapons sets. Like both Seteth and Minerva having Axe/Lance sets.

2) This would be kinda hard from a mechanic point of view, say you’re attack with a bow and switch weapons to a sword... there is a good chance the enemies will be outside your reach. If done right it would be fine.

3) I don’t see how this matter here, in fact I think it leans the other way, certain characters who get really good skills, like Niles and Olivia now gain an extra skill shot for free while characters with bad skills, Frederick, have even less potential. I think skills would need to be reworked for this to be good. I agreed on it because I think a character shouldn’t have to waste a skill slot on their skill.

4) Triangle coverage is all well and good but it would probably get locked a lot during history maps as it would render the “Only X weapon types” in history mode pointless.

Corrin is actually one I could see being moved to Stone with a transformation mechanic. But it's easy enough to justify a tome moveset on them.

 

1) I don't think duplicate combos should either be encouraged nor avoided at all costs. If you have to break a character's lore to give them a unique combo, it's not worth it (ie: giving Chrom a tome). On the other hand, if a character like Minerva, who has never been portrayed with anything other than an axe to my knowledge, can have a unique combo with a sword or a bow, I think she should. I actually picked sword because I think it's the most in character for her honorable personality. Someone like Jill/Haar would inflexibly be Lance/Axe, as would Seteth.

 

2) I think the KT approach would be the lazy one. Don't design movesets to combo, but let players figure out how to exploit it. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. 

 

3) This one is my fault. Sorry about that. I meant Suggestion 3, not 4. Say, Chrom's Falchion (Dracoslayer) and lance (fury builder) would give him different available skills from Lucina's Parallel Falchion (Dracoslayer) and bow (Wingslayer & Critical Focus) or Ike's Ragnell (Plateslayer) and Urvan (Def & Res +50).

 

4) I actually think this could open more flexibility in map objectives. No Weapon Swap/Default Only could be a map objective. And "axe" only could allow you to say... deploy Seteth's alternate axe moveset while disabling his weapon swap.

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11 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Corrin is actually one I could see being moved to Stone with a transformation mechanic. But it's easy enough to justify a tome moveset on them.

 

1) I don't think duplicate combos should either be encouraged nor avoided at all costs. If you have to break a character's lore to give them a unique combo, it's not worth it (ie: giving Chrom a tome). On the other hand, if a character like Minerva, who has never been portrayed with anything other than an axe to my knowledge, can have a unique combo with a sword or a bow, I think she should. I actually picked sword because I think it's the most in character for her honorable personality. Someone like Jill/Haar would inflexibly be Lance/Axe, as would Seteth.

 

2) I think the KT approach would be the lazy one. Don't design movesets to combo, but let players figure out how to exploit it. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. 

 

3) This one is my fault. Sorry about that. I meant Suggestion 3, not 4. Say, Chrom's Falchion (Dracoslayer) and lance (fury builder) would give him different available skills from Lucina's Parallel Falchion (Dracoslayer) and bow (Wingslayer & Critical Focus) or Ike's Ragnell (Plateslayer) and Urvan (Def & Res +50).

 

4) I actually think this could open more flexibility in map objectives. No Weapon Swap/Default Only could be a map objective. And "axe" only could allow you to say... deploy Seteth's alternate axe moveset while disabling his weapon swap.

1) if you look back Minerva actually favored Lance in FE1-2 and she couldn’t wield axes. She only started using axes in shadow dragon. So the “never used anything but axes” isn’t true. But that is splitting hairs as wyverns being axe units more or less started with PoR and was solidify in RD.

2 was more or less a personal concern and I have no issue with it.

3) I don’t think each character should have 2 personal weapons as you never really use a standard weapon in the first one. I think a character should be force to use a standard weapon for their second moveset.

4) can be argued in a bunch of ways, I think each character should have a favorite weapon type and they can only use that weapon for restricted missions

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5 minutes ago, ciphertul said:

1) if you look back Minerva actually favored Lance in FE1-2 and she couldn’t wield axes. She only started using axes in shadow dragon. So the “never used anything but axes” isn’t true. But that is splitting hairs as wyverns being axe units more or less started with PoR and was solidify in RD.

2 was more or less a personal concern and I have no issue with it.

3) I don’t think each character should have 2 personal weapons as you never really use a standard weapon in the first one. I think a character should be force to use a standard weapon for their second moveset.

4) can be argued in a bunch of ways, I think each character should have a favorite weapon type and they can only use that weapon for restricted missions

Was never using a standard weapon a problem? If anything, I'd say it was a good thing, given how fugly most of the standard weapons were. Bronze, Iron, and Steel weapons looked pretty decent, but Brave, Silver, and Hero weapons had incredibly gaudy colors that I would never want to be forced to use.

 

Also, I didn't state this, but having 2 weapons per character would also necessitate doubled rare weapon skill drops and halved weapon ascension KO requirements. The necessity for such is obvious, as increasing grind is not a goal here.

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6 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

 

Was never using a standard weapon a problem? If anything, I'd say it was a good thing, given how fugly most of the standard weapons were. Bronze, Iron, and Steel weapons looked pretty decent, but Brave, Silver, and Hero weapons had incredibly gaudy colors that I would never want to be forced to use.

 

Also, I didn't state this, but having 2 weapons per character would also necessitate doubled rare weapon skill drops and halved weapon ascension KO requirements. The necessity for such is obvious, as increasing grind is not a goal here.

That may be true, by why have them then? If their only use is fodder why make them equitable? The thing is to make them not a pointless drop most of the time.

The same can be said for the opposite, I wouldn’t put it pass them to keep the 2000 kills( or however many it was) to unlock blessing and now everyone has to do it twice.

Each character only have one personal weapon is something that I think makes them more different from each other, like if Minerva and Seteth both wield Axe and Lance but only Minerva gets a personal axe then she will always have the advantage over Seteth but he gets his personal Lance which makes him better then her in Lance combat.

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As an alternative, adding an option to forge custom personal weapons Tellius style, using the skin of any weapon in the game (including mockups of personal weapons) and then coloring, naming, and assigning an innate skill to them would be a good option. And then you could gain materials for these from salvaging weapons you get as drops.

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I'm actually kind of surprised how much I agree with this. Usually when people talk about clones in FEW I find whatever is being said to be petty whining, but I agree with all 5 suggestions here.

I especially like suggestion 5 because of how well it fits Fire Emblem and how you rarely, if ever, have a character running around with just one weapon. Although I do worry about how this might make it too easy for any one character to have advantage against too many enemies, so it might need some kind of drawback like a weapon-breaking system.

The only thing you said that I disagree with is that I don't think there should be any random skill procs in FEW.

6 hours ago, ciphertul said:

Okay, but then in your point everyone would be half clones. One weapon clones unit B and second weapon clones unit C... that isn’t much better. 

Why is that a problem? The only fair argument I can see here is that perhaps special units like lords could have one unique moveset and one shared moveset (example: Claude could have a non-shared bow moveset and share an axe moveset with other fliers like Seteth), but everyone being "half clones" is how Fire Emblem works.

Clones aren't bad. How you implement them is what matters.

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18 minutes ago, Florete said:

I'm actually kind of surprised how much I agree with this. Usually when people talk about clones in FEW I find whatever is being said to be petty whining, but I agree with all 5 suggestions here.

I especially like suggestion 5 because of how well it fits Fire Emblem and how you rarely, if ever, have a character running around with just one weapon. Although I do worry about how this might make it too easy for any one character to have advantage against too many enemies, so it might need some kind of drawback like a weapon-breaking system.

The only thing you said that I disagree with is that I don't think there should be any random skill procs in FEW.

Why is that a problem? The only fair argument I can see here is that perhaps special units like lords could have one unique moveset and one shared moveset (example: Claude could have a non-shared bow moveset and share an axe moveset with other fliers like Seteth), but everyone being "half clones" is how Fire Emblem works.

Clones aren't bad. How you implement them is what matters.

The support is appreciated, and I also share the observation that the topic is touchy, especially in the DW fandom where they are used to like 80+ distinct movesets (at the cost of game quality).

 

I will say, however, that the abolition of random procs is unlikely. Not only does it restrict the options for personal skills (in a game that has a LOT of personal skills to go around) but both FE and DW have a long history of random proc effects. It's one of those things that made the DW formula pretty natural to translate over.

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11 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

I will say, however, that the abolition of random procs is unlikely. Not only does it restrict the options for personal skills (in a game that has a LOT of personal skills to go around) but both FE and DW have a long history of random proc effects. It's one of those things that made the DW formula pretty natural to translate over.

FEW doesn't have any random procs, though, as far as I remember. The skill descriptions that suggest random procs (Luna, Pavise, Sol, etc.) are mistranslations.

Wait, I think Lethality is a random proc. But none others.

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Just now, Florete said:

FEW doesn't have any random procs, though, as far as I remember. The skill descriptions that suggest random procs (Luna, Pavise, Sol, etc.) are mistranslations.

Wait, I think Lethality is a random proc. But none others.

Lethality is, and I know that Luna is not. No idea on Sol, Pavise, and Aegis.

 

If anything, I could see a compromise for FEW2. Where every proc has a cooldown, lowered by your Speed stat, and the random % chance from Skill/Luck helps you trigger it sooner after the cooldown. That would really help stats shine, since Speed is also a bit intangible in FEW.

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I agree with 1, 3, and 4, and half-agree with 5.

I agree that each unit should have two separate movesets (as I've often outlined in my own hypotheticals), but I'd sacrifice in-battle hotswapping in favor of just choosing a weapon before battle and sticking with that moveset for the whole fight like in Hyrule Warriors, with the benefit being that characters can have different movement types between their two movesets.

With each character having some combination of two movesets, plus more diversified stats and both innate skills and innate weapon attributes, they'd play sufficiently different IMO. Would also help if the weapon strength cap remained at 240 instead of going all the way to 720, so stats matter more.

2 would be neat, but seems superfluous on top of everything else.

Edited by Anomalocaris
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Yes, or they could just utilize more unit types. Why is there 4 infantry bows but not a single Calvary bow?

In my opinion, the there should be 1 unit type of each thing, and very rarily do units have the same unit type. I think they wanted to limit the roster for important characters of recent titles and Lyn, but I think having fan favorite non-lord characters make up the roster could be successful too.

Spoiler
  1. Sword Infantry (2 Handed Sword - Mercenary): OGMA - Archanea
  2. Sword Infantry (Dual Wielding - Myrmidon): NAVARRE - Archanea
  3. Axe Infantry (Fighter/Warrior): ECHIDNA - Elibe Gen 2
  4. Axe Infantry (Dual Wielding - Pirate): DART - Elibe Gen 1
  5. Lance Infantry: OBORO - Hoshido
  6. Bow Infantry: FEBAIL - Jugdral Gen 2
  7. Mage Infantry (Anima Magic): TILTYU - Gen 1
  8. Dark Mage Infantry (Dark Magic): THARJA - Ylisse
  9. Gauntlet Infantry: CASPAR - Fodlan
  10. Knife Infantry:  PATTY - Jugdral Gen 2
  11. Sword Calvary: XANDER - Nohr
  12. Axe Calvary: LEX - Jugdral Gen 1
  13. Lance Calvary: CLIVE - Valentia
  14. Bow Calvary: SUE - Elibe Gen 2
  15. Mage Calvary: L'ARACHEL - Magvel
  16. Knife Calvary: (idk about this one though tbh): KAZE - Hoshido ... he could ride that one weird promoted class thing
  17. Sword Flier: FARINA - Elibe Gen 1
  18. Axe Flier:  JILL - Tellius
  19. Lance Flier: CLAIR - Valentia
  20. Mage Flier: FLAYN - Foldan
  21. Dragon Shifter: MYRHH - Magvel
  22. Beast Shifter 1 (Could be lion or Keaton/Velouria, something bigger): KEATON - Nohr
  23. Beast Shifter 2 (something more agile, like the cats or taguel): PANNE - Ylisse
  24. Bird Shifter: TIBARN - Tellius
  25. Dancer/Singer - OC (made this one OC so they can have more creative freedom with the moveset and weapon choice. Same goes for the remaining slots)
  26. Special Character
  27. Special Character
  28. Lord

However, I do like your suggestions, and do think that they will help differentiate characters. The only one I voted no is Suggestion 1. Because there will be characters weaker than others, and that can make harder difficulties a slog to play through. Many boss enemies in Musou games encourage you to target their weakspots, which requires some level of skill to do. If the weaker characters have to do this multiple times, then it just gets old and time consuming. However, I can see this working if it operates similarly to Dragon Quest Warriors.

The only one I was undecided on was the last one. I can see this working and Hyrule Warriors has done it. But I wonder if this will affect the roster count.

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7 hours ago, Anomalocaris said:

I agree with 1, 3, and 4, and half-agree with 5.

I agree that each unit should have two separate movesets (as I've often outlined in my own hypotheticals), but I'd sacrifice in-battle hotswapping in favor of just choosing a weapon before battle and sticking with that moveset for the whole fight like in Hyrule Warriors, with the benefit being that characters can have different movement types between their two movesets.

With each character having some combination of two movesets, plus more diversified stats and both innate skills and innate weapon attributes, they'd play sufficiently different IMO. Would also help if the weapon strength cap remained at 240 instead of going all the way to 720, so stats matter more.

2 would be neat, but seems superfluous on top of everything else.

The problem with allowing characters to swap movement types is that essentially changes their character model, or creates unforseen clipping and other issues with their character model. That's why, for example, Three Houses won't let you use monastery outfits on mounted classes.

 

Plus, you can use consistent character weaknesses to differentiate characters. If Hapi doesn't have armor weakness when swapping to great knight, that's something she has over Frederick despite her lower defenses.

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44 minutes ago, Gordin said:

I don't like 4 tbh because some characters have shit skills and some characters have OP skills and it'd only result in giving the chars with OP skills an extra skill slot. I do like the others though!

I think some of them need rebalancing. Namely, +10 to a stat isn't good enough and should probably be at least +30-50.

 

Or better yet, plus percentage. Strength +10% is a lot easier to balance than flat strength.

Edited by Fabulously Olivier
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56 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

I think some of them need rebalancing. Namely, +10 to a stat isn't good enough and should probably be at least +30-50.

 

Or better yet, plus percentage. Strength +10% is a lot easier to balance than flat strength.

If they rebalanced skills I'd be fine with it but you can't compare like Astra with speed +10 or potent potion.

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1 minute ago, Gordin said:

If they rebalanced skills I'd be fine with it but you can't compare like Astra with speed +10 or potent potion.

Indeed. But also, having a really strong personal skill is just another way that a unit could secure their niche in spite of other flaws in their kit.

 

Potent potion isn't actually a bad skill, by the way. It's not Astra tier by any means, but it's extremely good for modes like villager defense (or whatever that awful mode where you have to protect 2 villagers and gain like 2k KOs is called). It's one of those skills that you would situationally swap to. I do think it should get a slight rebalance itself though - like having the additional effect of adding extra healing uses or increasing healing amount or even restoring musuo/awakening on potion use.

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1 hour ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Indeed. But also, having a really strong personal skill is just another way that a unit could secure their niche in spite of other flaws in their kit.

 

Potent potion isn't actually a bad skill, by the way. It's not Astra tier by any means, but it's extremely good for modes like villager defense (or whatever that awful mode where you have to protect 2 villagers and gain like 2k KOs is called). It's one of those skills that you would situationally swap to. I do think it should get a slight rebalance itself though - like having the additional effect of adding extra healing uses or increasing healing amount or even restoring musuo/awakening on potion use.

Villager escort is the mission your thinking of, and most of the time it was 3 villager. 

 

1 hour ago, Gordin said:

If they rebalanced skills I'd be fine with it but you can't compare like Astra with speed +10 or potent potion.

Yeah, I brought that up too, most skills are just bad compared to a select few

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Thing is, even though some skills (especially stat boosts) need rebalancing, innate personals would still represent a buff to every character. Plus, it would mean that fun but less valuable skills like Pass, Vengeance, etc. see inherent use on someone.

 

Such skills would warrant rebalancing either way, by the way. Flat +10 stat boosts and other underwhelming skills suck regardless of whether anyone is stuck with them.

 

 

Edit:

I think skill rebalancing could be a discussion/game for another thread. All talk to keep the idea of a FEW2 alive is good talk.

Edited by Fabulously Olivier
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